Talk:Maximal

Ancient stuff

I... don't really think we need the describe what all the Maximals are doing in each tiny little subcontinuity. That seems really excessive and redundant. --ItsWalky 02:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Total agreement. Drop it all, says I. --M Sipher 03:24, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hrm, I'm not the only one working on this I see. My approach is pretty different from what Walky has here, so I'll drop it in as a sub-section when I'm done and let God (or possibly the admin) sort out where/how to include it.-Derik 04:18, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've been pecking at this for a few days, and I want to know what people think.

"Man is a political animal." -Aristotle Onasis

After the Pax Cybertronia and the end of the Great War, Autobots were no longer able to define themselves in opposition to their opponents— what are Autobots with no Decepticons to fight?

The unifying experience for this generation was the the Maximal Upgrade Program , later simply called "the Great Upgrade from Autobot to Maximal." The entire planet's population was rebuilt with new technology, downsizing in the proscess. The old parts of Cyberton had to be abandoned and new, smaller-scale cities constructed on top of them.

Cybertron also experienced a population boom. While the planet's population could once have been measured in hundreds or thousands, the capital of Cybertropolis alone now has a population of over ten million Transformers.

To many of this brave new Cybertron, the Great War was a conflict their ancestors fought in, not one they identify with themselves.

This is what I see as the crux point of what 'makes' the Maximals what they are, which is usually casually brushed aside as 'the Autobots changed their name.'

Am I cracked, or is this importat enough to wege into the entry? -Derik 11:02, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

There should be some note that some Autobots (as distinct from Maximals) do still exist in the Pax Cybertronia era, according to Megatron in "Other Visits." --KilMichaelMcC 14:07, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm wondering where Derik got the "The G1 populations were just hundreds or thousands." Everything in my entry is taken from somewhere in fiction. Derik's seems more speculatory. "The Great Upgrade from Autobot to Maximal"? When was it called that? --ItsWalky 15:12, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Agreed on both. I've never heard that population number given before. Did you guess it Derik, or is it from some obscure J-BW guidebook? And "The Great Upgrade" I've heard, but not that extended name. -Steve-o 15:56, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I am unconvinced that there is anything noteworthy about the construction of the Maximal-era cities over the existing ones - the first episode of BM, not to mention quite a few G1 episodes, make it clear that the surface of Cybertron is completely built over on a fairly regular basis. -LV 18:16, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Gigantiany construction is a Cybertronic constant. --ItsWalky 20:39, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

"The Great Upgrade from Autobot to Maximal" is a direct quote from Optimus Primal in Sparkwar. He cites it as the reason Iacon was abandoned. So the city abandonment thing is in-text.

The population thing is more speculative, I admit. Internal to the cartoon at least, there were poitns when the total population of cybertron appears to have been 12 or less. And you get things like the summoning in the Marvel comics, where Primus called all Transformers to him... and got like 100? That's why the entry is phrased so carefulyl to refer to the population of CYBERTRON, not TF's all across the galaxy. It's iffy, even then, but it certianly SEEMS that most Maximals were nto Autobots and Decepticons. And if the population of one city was 10 million, Cybertron total must be in the billions. Which... even taking colonies into account, I don't believe the galactic transformer populationw as EVER in the billions in G1. They had a baby boom.

To recap- the City Thing is explicitly stated. The population thing is mroe tenuous. -Derik 22:36, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Whether it's directly from the script or not doesn't affect whether it's noteworthy. I'd be more inclined to mention it on the page for Iacon. -LV 02:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that "The Great Upgrade From Autobot To Maximal" is a proper name. "The Great Upgrade" could be. "From Autobot to Maximal" is just part of his sentence. Regarding populations: I think I have to call bullshit on this, Derik. We have NO WAY of knowing what the population was during G1. Like you say, sometimes it *seems* like the population is less than a dozen. But that is pretty obviously not correct. I don't think there's any basis at all for estimating a G1 population. --Steve-o 03:15, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

And while trying to make sense of things "realistically" is rather absurd with this property, I have a real hard time believing that Transformers economy could have withstood an increase in population from thousands planetwide to 10 million in just one city within a few hundred stellar cycles. That would be ridiculous. --ItsWalky 03:47, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I dunno, in a post-Rebirth New Golden Age with Cybertron having a vast new energy supply, I think such a population explosion could work. This is still just speculation, of course. Growth into the billions in three centuries is still kinda ridiculous, but this is Transformers, where ridiculous is par for the course. --KilMichaelMcC 10:24, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, how about this? Coeleagon is 80,000 years old. He's considered extremely old by Beast-era standards, which says to me that the vast majority of the BW-era population is younger than that. It doesn't proove a population boom after the great war- but it does proove that the vast majority of the BW-era population is extremely young compared to those veterans we're used to following. (I'd say 2/3 or more of the TF's that astarred int he G1 colics and cartoon are at least 4 million years old +) -Derik 10:42, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Yep, Acourding to the writers all the non-protoform characters in BW are like 50-200 years old, while some G1 guys were around 5 billion(minus the years in status) 69.14.163.91 19:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes yes, the "Cheeto is one vorn old" thing certianly invluenced my train of thought- but many of those early thoughts by BW's writers (the pit, the matrix) are essentaially DISCARDED, so if I want to make a case for such, I'm looking for material within the cannon to support it. -Derik 00:36, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

eh, what's wrong with the Pit and Matrix?

(sign your posts, X-BoB!) At a guess, I'd say that it's simply that the Pit and the Matrix are unofficial designations. Postulated by Bob and Larry, yes. But unofficial nonetheless. I don't know that they've been actively contradicted by stuff that's come since. But neither have they ever been used again. (Hence, "discarded") Derik can say more, no doubt, whenever he stops in again.--G.B. Blackrock 15:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Not 'never mentioned again,' but never mentioend at all. All the BW references to 'the pit' have been retconend to mean the arenas inside Unicron. Maxmals saying 'by the Matrix' sure ain't swearign by a mysterious sealed birthign facility that appeared one day (as what the proposal.)

The pit/Matrix thing was (IMO) a placeholder concept. "Well, how do TF's reproduce?" They stuck them in their story bible, for lack of a better idea. As they got to knwo the mythology better, they realised there WERE better ideas, and moreover that the issue of transformer replication is dicey as hell. I dont' think the pit/matrix 'count' towards TF, because I think it was an early idea that subsequently replaced without ever making it onscreen.

...however I am willign to use the general thrust of them to support my own belief in a population upswing after the Great War. It may not have been caused by the arrival of two mysterious sealed-system birth creches... but I think the perponderance of evidence does point to a population boom. I'm aware this is hypocritical, thank you.

Also, Tetris Porn. -Derik 00:47, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree there was probably a population boom. What I disagree with is that there were only a few hundred Transformers in G1. --ItsWalky 01:45, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, see, I never said there was a few hundred- TF's in G1-- I said the population of Cybertron had fallen into that realm. I think it's clear that there were any thriving colonies out there. But what would you say the population of Cybertron was suring Desertion fo the Dinobots?

It's cultural, not racial. Betwixt season 2 and the movie, the population boomed again as Autobots and Decepticons who'd moved out into the universe rallied again to Megatron and Prime's flags... but they themselves haven't lived on Cybertron for the entire period of the war like the core season 1-2 cast.

I think the season 1-2 cast skews us. They're all like 7 million years old more more. I think in BW-era, TF's that old are 0.0001% of the population, and everyone else is muc younger. And thus the 80,000 year old Coleagon is considered extremely old. -Derik 12:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me say this again again again. I disagree that the population of G1-era Cybertron was in the hundreds or thousands. Perhaps that's specific enough. --ItsWalky 15:14, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

You're cracked. -Derik 15:23, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Thats certenly the impression I got, though I doubt it was backed by canon anywhere. X-BoB58 15:37, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

How can he argue with Tetris porn?  :~(

Organization section

The "organization" section of this article seems like a weird mishmash of continuities to me. It's... kind of fanon-ish. I don't know the subject well enough to fix it, but I wanted to make note of it. --Steve-o 01:34, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Pretender? Micro-Master?

Where exactly does it say that Maximal technology is derived from Pretender and Micro-Master Technology? Can we have a source on that? If not, it seems like pure fanon. --Ascendron 15:01, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

In "Departure" Hot Rod rattles off a description of the Maximal Upgrade Program that includes "bio-tech overhaul" and a discussion about fuel savings with the downsize. Though not explicitly stated to be the Pretender and Micromaster tech, Halit is definitely deliberately evoking the language used for them to draw the connection.

So it's implicit... but not made up. -Derik 15:11, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

Needs to be sourced and noted that it only applies to 3H continuity. —Interrobang 15:52, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

Not just "3H continuity." There's a whole section in the Pretenders article in Dreamwave's MTMTE profiles under 'Future Applications." "The abilities of some Pretenders to combine and transform along with their shells indicates that it is possible to develop a Cybertronian who is able to transform from robot mode directly into a biological mode that is externally indistinguishable from existing indigenous life forms... scientists suspect that we could see the further development of such technology within several vorns." Likewise, the Micromasters article hints at future potential for the Transformers race with downsizing into smaller but more powerful forms. --ItsWalky 19:25, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

*rolls eyes* Suure, the general evocation of patterns that existed in multiple prior G1 continuities, (as well as Vector Sigma's explicit maintextual master plan to bring about merger of TF's and bio-tech in both The Rebirth and Beast Machine) is isolated to a single continuity... that's a totally accurate way to present the situation. -Derik 16:35, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

I apologize for not desiring to play the part of the writer. —Interrobang 18:42, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

Oh come on, are you seriously gonna sit there and take that from a douchbag like him? -Derik 19:14, 24 October 2009 (EDT)

Autobot insignia?

Wondering why there is an Autobot insignia in the faction icons. - Starfield 22:49, 6 October 2010 (EDT)

Some anon added it, was reverted by Rosicrucian, and then the anon added it again. I think it just got missed being removed again the second time. --abates 23:11, 6 October 2010 (EDT)

Technorganic insignia

I think the comment on the picture of the technorganic insignia may be false. However, this article seems to deal with a generalization of many continuities and I'm not sure if and how I should modify the article per say. I was inquiring on the topic of BW insignia when I was confused with the Technorganic Predacon insignia which can be found on Razorclaw(Timelines). He obviously comes from the far past, and is not really organic in any way, thus justifying the idea that the technorganic insignia may have been ancients symbols by the time of post-BM. On the other hand, Lio Convoy of BW:U has clearly the standard Maximal insignia, - Which tend to be one of the few accounts of the early Maximals we have - but Beast Machine toys consistently have the new Maximals insignia. Thus, it seems to me that the comments on the technorganic Maximal insignia might be justified for the Predacon insignia but not the Maximal one. So... Is something wrong here or am I missing something?Xunk16 (talk) 03:54, 20 March 2016 (EDT)

Clean-up?

This page could do with some polishing / work / sprucing up a little. There's no section on the Maximal factions as depicted in fiction, and the page as a whole takes a general sort of "mashed up" approach to describing the faction. Like, the history section treats 3H and Beast Wars as the given history, even when some continuities (like Uprising) have their origins be different. At the moment, as it stands, it kinda needs some love and attention beyond what one person alone can bring. Smasher (talk) 13:25, 24 September 2017 (EDT)

Liege Maximo

"Twelve million years ago, the Maximal Army emerged as a tribe of prehistoric warriors who had named themselves after their master, Liege Maximo. In keeping with their leader's duplicitous nature, the Maximals possessed the ability to hide their monstrous appearances within the shapes of smaller, less intimidating robots, much like the later Pretenders."

Has this actually been stated anywhere? Because this comes off as a lot of assumption and doesn't fit in anything Shockwave says regarding his troops. Saix (talk) 14:57, 8 August 2018 (EDT)

"Allow me to introduce Liege Maximo's Maximals" ... "They are not beasts. They are not Eukarians. They are the servants of the master of deceit... spawns of Liege Maximo. They are his Maximals..." Followed by Optimus Primal and the gang ripping off their skins and morphing into Liege Maximo-looking robots. Grum (talk) 15:21, 8 August 2018 (EDT)

Correct, but that doesn't indicate they were around 12 mya. The crew of Carcer were followers of Maximo, but they weren't horrible monstrosities, and we have Shockwave referring to the Axalon crew as Maximals, but they weren't noted to have ugly robots stuffed inside. The whole self-flaying thing comes off as a more recent development; the timeline isn't clear at all, and we really shouldn't be making assumptions till the stories actually spell it out. Saix (talk) 15:27, 8 August 2018 (EDT)

I think Bludgeon's remark about how the Maximals are a "final evolution" is further evidence that their precise nature is now how they've always been, and that we need to dial back what we've got until we're given some more information. - Chris McFeely (talk) 18:34, 8 August 2018 (EDT)