raven | Doctor Who - Let's Kill Hitler

I really enjoyed that. The crop circle totally cracked me up, and it was up from there. Oh, Amy and Rory! They are my favourite pair of companions ever, and they work so well together. Other things:

-So, midway through the little montage introducing Mels, Shim and I had this conversation:

"I can't decide if they're trying to make it really obvious they're changing history..."

"They did that on Buffy once."

"This is more eerie. Or maybe they're introducing a new character and being really crap about it."

Of course it dawned on me later that of course they're doing both at once. The "first" time Amy and Rory grew up, she wasn't there - but things are different now.

-(Also! Afterwards

gavagai and I were talking and she noted that one particular breed of pondscum fanboy can no longer claim there are no black Time Lords. Or brown ones, for that matter. Hurrah.)

-That littls scene where Amy figures out which women Rory is interested in did good things to my heart, seriously.

-Also, this episode is set in Nazi Germany for no reason at all. Only so Rory can smash Hitler in the face with a door, which now I come to think of it isn't the worst reason. I initially thought, actually, that it was a little troubling to use such a loaded setting and then do nothing solid with it - but, actually, I think it works to do what they do and not bother with the whole "Nazis are bad, you guys" schtick. We know Nazis are bad, which is why Amy, Rory and the Doctor are struck dumb when they discover where they are. Doctor Who isn't about murder or vengeance, or at least not like that; it's about shutting Hitler in a cupboard and making the Nazis run down the street in their underwear; it's how we are not war criminals.

-I really really want a robot full of teeny little people and killer metal squid. Really really.

-River, River, River, RIVER, oh god River I love her so much. I love gorgeous, powerful River in all her shapes and guises. I love how she can be brainwashed evil and she can be a determined force for the better in the universe but she's untameable. I love how the Doctor doesn't save River, River makes the choice to save herself and the Doctor. I love her. I love the little grin at "I'm mature!"

-River, River, I love her, River.

-In short: I'm really glad it's back, I mised it, we really need a TV licence, RIVER.

In other news: lovely Bank Holiday weekend thus far! Shim and I had a lovely day together having lunch and getting rained on, and soon there will be the carnival and darling

gavagai. I am reading many trashy novels. Life at the moment is good.

(Although. I have a lot of friends in the path of Irene, especially now at the start of fall semester. There was an earthquake and now there's a hurricane, and I used to live there, you guys, or at least I used to live close enough to offer up my apartment to NYC evacuees. Thinking of you, my dears, and I wish I could do something of concrete assistance)

Current Mood: relaxed
Crossposts: http://loneraven.livejournal.com/710565.html

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Posted by

such_heights

That's really interesting about the Nazi thing, I think I agree with you though I wasn't quite sure how I felt.

ALSO, PONDS. RIVER. EEEE.

Posted by

raven

RIVER. <3 <3

It took me a bit of time to decide how I felt about it, too. But on the whole I really do think it worked well.

Posted by

happydork

I love that the episode is called Let's Kill Hitler and all they do is deliver the wonderful line, "Shut up, Hitler," (satisfying), punch him in the face (satisfying) and lock him in a cupboard while they get on with their own plot (very satisfying indeed). I thought it was a wonderful use of the setting, especially as they're explicitly before the war and, while not before the camps, before what the camps became.

(Also! Afterwards gavagai and I were talking and she noted that one particular breed of pondscum fanboy can no longer claim there are no black Time Lords. Or brown ones, for that matter. Hurrah.)

\o/

Posted by

raven

That's nice in a way I never thoght of - they shove Hitler away and don't let him dictate the story. Hurrah, thank you for that.

Posted by

sir_guinglain

As for pondscum... back in the mid-1970s there were some fans who argued that there were no female Time Lords. Susan they explained away. Then came The Invasion of Time and Rodan; followed by two and two-thirds of a season of Romana, which silenced that faction.

Posted by

raven

I have a feeling that the anti-brown brigade are more tenacious. I hope not. But I have a feeling.

Posted by

philomytha

Yes to all of this and especially the RIVER RIVER RIVER part. I loved how Alex Kingston showed her as being so much younger and still unquestionably the same person.

Posted by

raven

She's so great, isn't she! She has such range. Also she's GORGEOUS. I am sooooo predictable.

Posted by

yan-tan-tether.livejournal.com

Shut up, Hitler! made me giggle.

Also, RIVER *____*

Posted by

loneraven.livejournal.com

RIVER <3 <3

Posted by

greek-jester.livejournal.com

-That littls scene where Amy figures out which women Rory is interested in did good things to my heart, seriously.

Oh yes. I happily rewound that scene on BT Vision several times, bouncing & squeaking happily each time.

We know Nazis are bad, which is why Amy, Rory and the Doctor are struck dumb when they discover where they are. Doctor Who isn't about murder or vengeance, or at least not like that; it's about shutting Hitler in a cupboard and making the Nazis run down the street in their underwear; it's how we are not war criminals.

This. Although should I be ashamed that I'm hoping someone talented will make an icon of that Hitler snippet, with some appropriately pithy comment so that I can steal it & play it whenever I'm feeling depressed at something a bigot has posted?

Posted by

serriadh.livejournal.com

I also liked how River's throwaway quip about 'I was on my way to a gay gypsy Bar Mitzvah for the disabled, when I thought the Third Reich's a bit rubbish' actually did a better job than many serious "Hitler is very bad" messages at remembering it wasn't just Jewish people who were targetted.

(Which is in no way to diminish the Shoah or the suffering of Jews under Hitler.)

Posted by

greek-jester.livejournal.com

You know, I think I may see if I can get hold of a copy of this episode & just play it repeatedly. So many awesome moments, so little time...

Posted by

parrot-knight.livejournal.com

As I will say when I get round to writing the review, the episode flirts with dressing up in 'Nazi chic' so it can show us what sort of character the newly-regenerated Melody-River is, and what she could possibly become left to the trajectory planned by Madame Kovarian and the Silence.

Posted by

loneraven.livejournal.com

I'm not very sure about that, you know. River's gay-gypsy-disabled quip seems to meake it clear that she knows what the Nazis stand for and that she does not approve - that she has the morality of River Song as we know her, only with this huge "MUST KILL DOCTOR" thought hovering over everything else. I do look forward to your review.

Posted by

parrot-knight.livejournal.com

I've since moderated that view to suggest that the Hitler/Melody association is there to flag up the crude analogies used by the Teselecta crew. Hitler and River are guilty of different crimes but both qualify to be 'given Hell' and then presumably abandoned, with the Teselecta feeling better about themselves. Meanwhile the 'little people' get 'tidied up' in a double standard.

Posted by

macadamanaity.livejournal.com

I IMed a friend in the middle of the beginning, during Mel's montage and was like... "I may have a new favourite character?" and then ten minutes later was like, "NOPE, JUST KIDDING. SAME FAVOURITE CHARACTER!"

#River4eva

Posted by

loneraven.livejournal.com

BASICALLY. River River River <3

Posted by

pinkdormouse.livejournal.com

I just loved the whole episode so much.

Posted by

loneraven.livejournal.com

Me toooooo. I love River so much, it's a bit ridic.

Posted by

bookwormsarah.livejournal.com

So much of this episode made me laugh - wonderful stuff. Can't wait to get home from work to watch it again.

"You will experience a slight tingling sensation and then death"

Posted by

loneraven.livejournal.com

V. polite killer robot squid, yes! I kind of want one.

Posted by

bookwormsarah.livejournal.com

Oh yes, who needs a burglar alarm when you have Polite Killer Robot Squid. Plus, I want a Rory. He's wonderful.

My mind just went into a very strange place thinking about android calamari.

Posted by

littlered2.livejournal.com

I found I didn't enjoy this episode as much as previous River ones; I think it's because I love the image of River as a intelligent, competent, awesome archaeologist, who can hold her own with the Doctor and clearly has a fantastic relationship with him; an unpredictable, slightly unhinged brainwashed killer is less appealing. (And, admittedly, I was disappointed when we were told explicitly that she was Amy and Rory's daughter, as it means no four-way flirting on board the Tardis.) There were a lot of excellent bits, though.

Posted by

loneraven.livejournal.com

I don't know, I think it makes the previous episodes better for it. The River we know - awesome, competent, thoughtful River - seems to me to be all the more awesome when we know the sort of things she fought to become that person. I do love her so.

Posted by

littlered2.livejournal.com

I love her too - I think I am just a foolish wimp who freaks out when authority figures (or similar) are revealed as being flawed and unpredictable. I think I have Issues.

Posted by

ladymercury-10.livejournal.com

Amy realizing that Rory isn't gay, that he only ever liked her was really sweet. But if Melody growing up with them is a new timeline, how did Amy and Rory get together the first time without her their to make the "penny drop" so to speak?

Posted by

greek-jester.livejournal.com

Some other acquaintance? Rory finally getting his act together & explicitly saying "I like you"? I subscribe to the Terry Pratchett school of time travel, with history trying to correct itself if fixed points get buggered around with. Actually, that would explain the Reapers. If a fixed point gets too trashed for history to fix itself...

Posted by

ladymercury-10.livejournal.com

Hmm, yes, that makes sense. :)

Posted by

cscottd.livejournal.com

Amy and Rory! They are my favourite pair of companions ever

I'm loving the two-companion dynamic (and that they're also a couple), but even beyond just that, I think that Amy and Rory are particularly brilliant together.

The "first" time Amy and Rory grew up, she wasn't there - but things are different now.

That's the way I saw it too, but I'm surprised by how many people I see complaining that they "suddenly introduced" this important character that we've "never seen before" (Besides which, we have seen her before anyway... in both her previous and next regenerations).

One thing that I really liked about this episode was the way that there are actually loads of little hints as to who Mels is (and the real nature of her relationship to Amy) that only become obvious when re-watching it. During my second viewing, I noticed lots of very River-like mannerisms in Mels... plus, of course, the way Amy/Mum was always there whenever she got into trouble. :)

one particular breed of pondscum fanboy can no longer claim there are no black Time Lords. Or brown ones, for that matter. Hurrah.

When she started regenerating, I hoped the same thing...

Sadly though, I'm sure there will be some of them who'll still find a way. Most likely, they'll start off with "I'm not racist, but" and then launch into some convoluted "logic" that is supposed to somehow support their desperate need to believe that all Time Lords are white -- I actually had someone use the argument that, in their words, "Gallifrey is basically Britain, and British people are white, so Time Lords must be white". (*boggle*)

this episode is set in Nazi Germany for no reason at all.

I love that "Let's Kill Hitler" isn't really about Hitler at all.

I love the little grin at "I'm mature!"

My favourite line from Mels/River was "Penny in the air... and penny drops."

There is one thing that puzzles me about the whole Mels = River thing...

At the end of "Day of the Moon", we see a scene in New York City that is labelled "Six Months Later", which would be late 1969 or early 1970. If, as Mels said, she regenerated into a toddler, how can she grow up with Amy and Rory (and be roughly their age)?

At the risk of buying a ticket for the conspiracy train, some part of my brain keeps going back to the infamous "1990" date on Rory's name tag, the first time we see him. I know that it's supposedly a "production error", but it seems like an odd coincidence that 1990 just happens to be about 20 years after Mels regenerated into a toddler (rather than the 40ish years that it would be in 2010).

I don't think there's a connection there... but otherwise I'm not sure how to explain the 20-ish year gap. I supposed time travel could've been involved, but how/why?

It's a puzzlement.

Posted by

loneraven.livejournal.com

I actually had someone use the argument that, in their words, "Gallifrey is basically Britain, and British people are white, so Time Lords must be white". (*boggle*)

Oh my god. Oh my god. I guess you should expect better from people who call "The Talons of Weng Chiang" the best episode evar, but still. urgh.

I like your theory! But I have a feeling that the year has been mentioned on screen in at least one of the Leadworth episodes. Possibly "Amy's Choice"? And Mel says "took me ages to find you" - does that possibly mean in time as well as in space?