A Great Woman Theory of History: AN INTERVIEW WITH MARGARETHE VON TROTTA

Author(s): Karen Jaehne, Lenny Rubenstein and MARGARETHE VON TROTTA

Source: Cinéaste, Vol. 15, No. 4 (1987), pp. 24-28
Published by: Cineaste Publishers, Inc.
Stable URL: https://www.jstor.org/stable/42683187
Accessed: 08-02-2019 11:13 UTC

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had a clear, concrete style with firm beliefs logically

make a film about Rosa Luxemburg than Marga- argued and progressive and hopeful, but then, in her let-
No make rethe more rethevonvona Trotta
film appropriate Trotta aboutdelved
, who has consistently , whointoRosa director has Luxemburg consistently could than be delved found Marga- into to ters, she is warmhearted, subtle and almost poetic. These
the personal motivations behind political acts, as well as two dimensions in one woman made me want to address
the political responses to private experience. Sisterhood her from the very beginning. It was unusual, perhaps, for
has been examined in-depth in von Trotta's films about me at that time to look into a political mind that also ex-
contemporary women searching for their fair share of a pressed itself on clothes, style, music, literature, and a
complex world. With her most recent work , von Trotta gigantic scope of humanistic problems. She painted,
investigates an even more complex world- Berlin in the drew; she had plants and studied botany and biology. She
early part of the century under the shock waves of revolu- had, in short, an intellectual curiosity that sometimes is
tionary fervor and an impending world war. At the center suspect in the modern world of narrow expertise. But her
of that political hurricane is Rosa Luxemburg, researched spectrum of talent beyond politics is what I really wanted
and revitalized in every aspect of her unique position as to bring out: how a political mind expresses itself not just
a woman and an intellectual. In the following interview, in writing and at the podium but in the scope of one's
Margarethe von Trotta reveals the sense of purpose and whole life.
keen intellect that set her on the path to Rosa Luxem- Cineaste: Did you think of her as a 'genius'?
burg in the 1 980s, a time when peace seems as improba- von Trotta: Ach, the concept of 'genius' is truly nine-
ble as it did then, and when a woman in a leadership teenth century. I simply admired and respected her. She
had patience and worked hard for what she knew and be-
role is likely to be as lonely and thrown back on her own
resources as the title heroine of Rosa Luxemburg. lieved to be important on any level. That was the begin-
ning, years ago. I had no idea at that time I could ever
direct a film. It was beyond my reach, really, as a woman
Cineaste: It was widely asserted that Rosa Luxemburg then.
was the project Rainer Werner Fassbinder was working Cineaste: Do uou know how Fassbinder seized upon the
idea?
on at the time of his death. Is that the same project that
you developed into your film? von Trotta: No, but upon his death there was a script
Margarethe von Trotta: For many years I had wanted Peter Märtesheimer [María Braun, etc.] which Fassinder
to do a film about Rosa Luxemburg. But I had told myself Iusually took and then molded according to his vision of
must make at least ten pictures before I would have the
his subject. Fassbinder's producer then offered the project
basic craft and knowledge to approach such a woman into me, particularly because he thought as a woman, I might
such a time, because I wanted to apply a mastery to it. You have a special insight. At first, the whole situation made me
may remember a scene in Marianne and Julianne, where uncomfortable. I hesitated because I had intended Rosa as
a photo of Rosa Luxemburg hangs above a desk. That was my tenth film, you see, but friends insisted that I do it and
not only deliberate - it indicated my intention to make talked me into it. Even after agreeing, I had to find my own
that film. And I offered the role at that time to Jutta way, because Märtesheimer's script was not how I con-
ceived re-
Lampe to make with me some day. I had thought Jutta of either the character or the history. I don't want to
go into
sembled Rosa with her high forehead; but as fate it, to
likes because it was interesting in its own way, but it
have it, it turned out to be the other sister, Barbara did not reflect my understanding of Rosa.
Sukowa, who would play Rosa. Cineaste: Were you able to go right into the project?
Cineaste: Is your interest in Rosa Luxemburg of von Trotta: No, it's too sensitive and complex. I spent a
a strict-
ly political or feminist origin? All of your filmsyear and a half in research in East Berlin. The last two
demon-
strate a tough feminism against a chaotic political volumes of the five that constitute Rosa's letters were not
background, it seems. yet out, and I had to sort out of her other work what ever
von Trotta: In 1968 during the student upheaval in Ger- could inform the film narrative. It was massive. In par-
many, Rosa Luxemburg was carried as a poster through ticular, I talked to historians, and Annelies Laschitza was
the demonstrations in Germany, the only woman among most helpful. She is the author of a book about Rosa and it
Ho Chi Minh, Mao Tse Tung, Marx, Lenin, and so on. struck me that when you become so involved with a his-
Dragged around through the streets that way, this lonely torical figure, as we both were, you develop a love and
woman struck me as not really suitable for that company. understanding for that person as if they were alive and
Do you know that portrait of her, with finely chiseledclose to you. But I was still awed by the prospect of bring-
features and somewhat saddened expression, most unu- ing her to life on the screen, and the way Rosa brought me
sual and álmost emotional? I bought a few of her shorter close to Annelies really helped me face the responsibility
of doing this kind of historical film. So many minuscule
political essays and the letters, and she fascinated me im-
mediately. On the one hand, in her political works, sheproblems - those of a filmmaker- stymied her rather of-

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 Barbara Sukowa as Rosa makes an impassioned speech in Rosa Luxemburg

ten. Questions of a filmmaker are not those of a historian, Cineaste: Did you see her personal story as a tragedy?
but we managed to merge our knowledge, even where she She seems to shatter on her own principles.
thought the matters not exactly weighty. I attended a von Trotta: I don't agree. She certainly had a disciplined
Rosa Luxemburg symposium in Paris in 1983, but. . . ethical sense and she was very hard on herself as well as
Cine aste: The historical approach with which you be- others, it's important to realize that when Rosa rejects her
gan seems to have let you down at some point lover Leo Jogiches, it is not because he has been unfaith-
von Trotta: Well, the academic language is not cine- ful to her but that he lied to her. She was utterly fanatic
matic, and since I had read her 2,500 letters several times, about truthfulness, especially in private affairs. I believe
at least four or five, I was looking for the individualthat she believed, on the one hand, in the idea of absolute
motivation more than her impact on history. I tried to sink love - a personal principle - and, on the other hand, the
myself into her life as if I were faced with playing her role. idea
I of one love between two people remaining steadfast
was once an actress, you know. After eighteen monthsand of true all their lives reigned over their society. The com-
that kind of research, it still took me six months to com- bination seems to have held sway over her subsequent
plete the screenplay - over several drafts. life, for she never again asserted the power of total love. In
Cineaste: How did you decide which historical figuresthe two volumes of letters written to Leo, you can perceive
to include in her biography, since she knew so many the development of their relationship on an intellectual
prominent figures? level, but she repeatedly asks him to write her something
von Trotta: I was uncomfortable doing a film that would about their personal life or about his feelings for her.
require a historical analysis and unexpurgated authentic- That's why I included the scene where he reads to her
ity, because that usually turns into an epic, which is not from her own letters and asks how that could change. She
my kind of film. I would just never do that, because I think reacts by challenging him with the fact that he never
it is impossible and potentially kitschy. Her private life in- answered those letters with a single personell word. Only
terested me so much more than her public role, which is of work and the Party! But she wanted life and a child.
interest to historians primarily, and in the attempt to Cineaste: He also denies her that desire when he warns
show how those two aspects were interwoven, I had to her in the film that a child would make her horrible, just
bring in a few personalities from the chapter titles of another woman, and that her ideas are her children.
history. But only where they affected Rosa's private life. von Trotta: That's why, ultimately, she left him, for she
Cineaste: Did you do independent research then on the could show only one side of herself to him, the political,
other historical figures and their relationship to the and her life is proof that politics is not enough. That is the
same events? deeper cause of their separation. Their friendship and
von Trotta: No, I tried to portray them as Rosa their saw
workthem
kept them together in some form, but what is
and described them. I made my point of view- really
andamazing
that of in the letters is that Rosa suddenly uses
the film- Rosa's. Some might argue that Kautsky the formal address instead of the familiar 'you' (Sie rather
or Bebel
are wrongly represented, so I decided to cling thanto du)Rosa's
or she finds oddly formalistic ways of stating
vantage point and not get into historical squabbles. things, after
I omit-that point. Then very gradually over the
ted Lenin, for example, because I find his whole years, she softens again toward him until after her last
personage
as it has traditionally appeared in films simply timeembarrass-
in prison. At that point, they have a very deep love
ing. I had to avoid the recognition factor ofand suchtrust again. He was the man in her life.
a major
'film' figure. As you know, he has been portrayed Cineaste:inThe final scene of the film shows Leo looking
hun-
dreds of films. back as Rosa is led away , and a certain ambiguity in his

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 00 S limited Rosa's historical importance to the weight it
U Khad relative to her other values. She was one of the
Konly revolutionaries to experience such an intense life
K apart from politics. The lessons of Rosa's life are as
K valuable for the women I personally know as for those
J who tote up facts and figures. And I hold the view
J that, when we study historical personalities, private mm
Klife is as politically important as public life.

expression led many to believe that he knew what was women's movement within the party, and she published
about to happen to her. Did you mean to indicate a be- Die Gleichheit (Equality) a social democratic paper for
trayal on his part? women. Rosa wrote for that paper occasionally, but did
von Trotta: For the audience it may be ambivalent, but not want only to be assigned to that sector of the party.
for me it's not. He watches her go. He knows he'll never She insisted on being considered on equal footing with the
see her again. The situation had become so dangerous, men and was. During my research, I met an elderly man
and she would not leave Berlin, although in Berlin her life who had known her and her involvement in politics and
was utterly in peril. And he will be killed only two months he maintained that she was the abiding spirit of the party.
later. That, too, he could have predicted. If that kind of in-
And she knew it, and exercised it. She had no complexes
terpretation applied, I fear the film would be reduced to at all about being a woman among men.
the cinema of cliché. Leo is never portrayed in the film as
a Her friendship with Clara began as a political associa-
man capable of such betrayal. It would be uncharacteris-tion. They struggled together within the left wing of the
tic-and stupid from a cinematic point of view. That's all.party and later established, together with Karl Liebknecht
Cineaste: You introduce Rosa's female friends as and Leo Jogiches, the Spartacus League. Out of the politi-
powerful influences in her life , but also as an ersatz for
cal developed an intimacy and trust for a personal friend-
her lost love. Was that the case? ship, that was, in turn, dealt a death blow by politics. With
von Trotta: Quite so. I also tried to show the complexity Lulu or Luise Kautzsky, Rosa enjoyed a close personal
with which she tried to replace Leo through her affair with from the beginning, until Rosa and Karl Kaut-
friendship
Kostia Zetkin, the son of her friend Clara, and likewise a sky had a falling out over political positions on the Rus-
substitute son for herself, after Leo has rather refused her sian Revolution's impact on their movement. Still, that
the right to have children. She finds both son and lover indid not mean they stopped seeing each other. Their con-
Kostia, but it seems to be consolation. Rosa was ultimate- tact was cooler, strained. After all, Clara Zetkin wrote
ly very lonely in matters of love. Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht in 1919, and
Cineaste: In politics , too, she seemed to have been Luise published memoirs in 1929 entitled Rosa Luxem-
alone as the only woman permitted to cross into the burg. Among these people, political principles had a
debates and decision-making circles controlled by men. priority over their personal lives, because they saw them-
You make that very clear in the dining room sequence ,selves in historical terms.
where the men at the table try to invite her to see to Cineaste: And yet you were more inclined to sift Rosa's
women's affairs in the party. . . life through the exceedingly personal criteria of our
von Trotta: And she tells them that Clara takes care of
modern vision of life rather than apply the historical
that! Clara Zetkin actually was responsible for the dimension by which she measured herself.
von Trotta: I think I did both, but I limited Rosa's

Leo (Daniel Olbrychski) and Rosa (Barbara Sukowa)

historical importance to the weight it had relative to he
other values. She was one of the only revolutionaries to
experience such an intense life apart from politics. And
beyond that, we must remember that a strictly historica
perspective would be safer conceived as a documentary.
The lessons of Rosa's life are as valuable for the women I
personally know as for those who tote up facts and figures.
And I hold the view that, when we study historical person-
alities, private life is as politically important as public life.
Cineaste: The Russian Revolution seems to have im-
pressed Rosa enormously and provided a model for the
politics she wished to follow in Germany.
von Trotta: At first. But only initially. Her happiness and
enthusiasm gave way about a year after the revolution,
when she wrote to Lenin to reprimand him for his elitist
thinking. Her belief in social democracy was based on a
firm belief in "the spontaneity of the masses," by which
she meant that when the masses react to political events,
they can be trusted, and that they should, in fact, be
followed rather than led in another direction by 'know-it-
alls' (Besserwisser).
In 1906, Rosa came back to Germany from Russia-
well, Warsaw, which belonged to Czarist Russia- with the
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 Rosa (Barbara Sukowa) is protected by Paul Levi (Winfried Glatzeder) in Rosa Luxemburg

opinion that in the interest of German democracy things von Trotta: Mmm, not so extreme, no. At that time, the
could definitely be learned from the events taking place in Jews were very well assimilated in Germany. That's why I
Russia. Simply by thinking through, 'What can one learn avoided putting a strong focus on the fact that she was
and apply to Germany?' That's when she discovered that Jewish. From today's point of view, it seems more power-
her colleagues within the party did not feel it applied to ful a factor than it was. I had a discussion about this with
their situation. They saw themselves as a legally estab- Rudolf Arnheim, the German film historian and theoreti-
lished party in the position to evolve into the governing cian. He said to me, "At that time, we intellectual, bour-
structure. Verbally they were revolutionary, but in their geois Jews were totally assimilated. Nobody made an
actions quite cautious, due to 'evolutionary' thinking. issue of it. We were no longer religious; we were integrated
Cineaste: That's where you chose to begin the film. and secularized. We had Christmas trees ..."
Why? Cineaste: Yes , that scene around the Christmas tree
von Trotta: I consider the time in her life from the first raises more than a few eyebrows .
Russian Revolution, when she returns full of the von spirit of
Trotta: That's why I included it. At the beginning of
change, to the time of the German revolution, which she
the century, German Jews were quite different from the
had truly believed would be a leap forward for the German Jews in other countries, particularly here in the U.S.
people, the essentially meaningful part of Rosa Luxem- where they had immigrated, in part, in order to preserve
burg's life. She was a revolutionary - not in the their traditions. A certain level of German Jews partici-
discredited sense associated with that term today- but pated in a political climate where religion had the least im-
she lived in a politically turbulent world and had a clear pact. Particularly if they were communists or leftists. But
vision of a path of progress that she believed would lead to even the run of the mill bourgeoisie took little notice of
a better, more peaceful world. Her belief in revolution in-Jews as a special case, and Jews had no foresight of how it
sisted on turning away from war, which had always beenwould be used against them.
considered somehow inevitable among Europeans. Part ofCineaste: Was Rosa Luxemburg's Jewishness held up
the way we chose to get along, traditionally ... I, too, can as a reason for her death?
be discouraged by that fact. von Trotta: No, it was because she was a radical leftist
Cineaste: It required flashbacks , however . and a powerfully charismatic leader and writer. Others
von Trotta: Yes, in order to explain what kind of relation-eliminated at the same time were not Jewish, and I think
ship she had with Leo we have to look back, and at a cer- it shifts the focus away from the real cause, the political
tain point, I think one wonders what kind of child Rosa grounds, to favor a fatalistic or deterministic reason for
must have been. I tried to place the flashbacks about the crime. Her politics, not her race, were the cause of her
where I thought they organically would fill in the picture murder.

for the audience. I also find it more intriguing to show an Cineaste: How did she fit in, then, as a Pole?
effect and then turn to examine the causes. It's less linear, von Trotta: She had a light accent, which Barbara
and I think we look at our own lives that way sometimes. Sukowa recapitulates, but her German was excellent.
Rosa's major achievements were sandwiched between When I read her works today, it strikes me that she wrote
two revolutions, both of them unsuccessful, but they il-a more modern German than her peers, because it is less
lustrate the goals, struggles and frustrations about the laden with literary affectations and clunky phrasing.
other avenues of her life, which are often more elusive. Clara Zetkin and Kautsky are today impossible to read
Cineaste: As a Pole and a Jew , she had two extreme dis- without an understanding of the nineteenth century un-
advantages within the German party, don't you think? derpinnings of purple flourishes and dry density. Rosa

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 Luxemburg is clear, precise and strikingly appropriate to that I was too sentimental and emotional in the context of
modern politics. a political narrative. They also claimed that this and that
It's also significant that the idea of internationalism was missing, that I was short on history, too long on
held sway in socialist circles, so she was all the more biography. But what struck me was that the academics
welcome. Whatever private comment was made cannot and historians were loath to attack my 'history' than were
be determined, and I refuse to speculate on the gossipthe critics, who became instant 'Rosa Luxemburg Experts.'
about 44 that Polish Jewess" or "Red Rosa." We must There were adolescent attempts to show me what I had
remember that Bebel was defending her when he said,
omitted, as if I had created this film by totally neglecting
"Red Rosa is not as terrible as they say. I couldn't do my research. It was appalling how little understanding or
without this troublemaker in my party." respect many critics had of film as a medium for opening
Cineaste: Didn't internationalism take a turn for the up history rather than turning into a didactic medium. It
worse in Rosa's time?
is the Luxemburg specialists who have defended me,
von Trotta: She believed very strongly in it, as did pointing out that as an artist, I have the right to interpret
others, which brought them a terrible disappointment in her life, to choose what I show. But that's not unusual in
1914. It was the death knell of internationalism and the Germany.
defeat of the Social Democratic Party in Europe. Its Cineaste:gener- Did anyone ever say that the film depicts the
osity was laid waste by the chauvinistic patriotism of war. of modern West Germany , with Luxemburg as
dilemma
It was the lowest point in Rosa's life. Their utopia was an lost.
example of a voice in our wilderness?
Cineaste: You portray that event as a rather briefvon in-Trotta: If that were the case, nobody would ever ex-
dulgence in suicidal impulses. press it in such a clear way. For example, when I was look-
von Trotta: Well, it was the realization that her function ing for funding for Marianne and Julianne , I went to
was no longer valid. I portrayed her appearance at the In-television station, but did ever a single one reject my
every
ternational Congress, where she is physically incapable of because it was politiceli? Never! Nobody dared
proposal
rising to address the madness she sees beore her, likesay, a "The story involved a taboo theme, and you may not
Cassandra. She saw in that moment that they would all it." Instead, they talked about dramaturgy and
make
march to war together, no matter how senseless itplausibility was. of sisters such as these and blah, blah, blah.
That's why her speech fails her. Nobody would say simply, "I find this a politically
Cineaste: Did her sudden incapacity cause her col- dangerous film." That's what I mean by the way criticism
leagues to distrust her? Did they find her weakness is deflected into whining petulance. I probably know bet-
feminine? ter than anyone what is missing or doesn't work in my
von Trotta: Leo accused her of that, until she explains toown films. And that's why I wanted to practice my art so
him. I didn't find it elsewhere, but I also believe nobodylong before assaulting Rosa Luxemburg. Perhaps it was
had time for that kind of pettiness. Events were movingpremature for my talents. But it was not premature for to-
too quickly to permit that kind of cabal. There is a line she day's politics. It had to be done. ■
wrote from that period that compelled me to believe in her
and to make this film. In 1914 the Party had voted for war
credits, and Clara and Rosa hopelessly were reduced to
suicide- seriously. But Rosa advanced to the next logical
thought in such an instance, "If we commit suicide, who
will carry on?" So they carried on, even though the task
was greater than they could imagine.
Cineaste: What role does Rosa Luxemburg play in
modern Germany?
von Trotta: You know the story about the West German
government issuing a Rosa Luxemburg commemorative
stamp which nobody wanted to buy and expressly re-
jected. The film, on the other hand, was better received. I
believe for two reasons: first, I concentrated on her strug-
gle against war and militarism, and those scenes found a
resonance among German viewers; secondly, her struggle
within her own party, the Social Democrats, which is also
rather relevant to modern German politics.
Cineaste: How would you compare Rosa Luxemburg's
politics to those of the Federal Republic of Germany?
von Trotta: She always accused her political opponents
of never having a clear program. And what do we have to-
day? Parties that accept compromise after compromise,
until they find themselves in an arms battle in the middle
of something they don't believe in. Then, they backtrack
and try to cope with problems they might have foreseen,
but they think they can contain the problems. Young peo-
ple immediately recognized the parallel, and when she
speaks of freedom or peace, young German audiences are
appreciative, because they hear that nowhere else, or, at
least, not in public debate. The tragedy is that the dialog
that should have taken place before the first world war is
still trying to take place.
Cineaste: Were you personally attacked for the film's
political views?
von Trotta: The German press attacked me to a certain
degree. Reviews were quite mixed, with some arguing

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