CHANTAL AKERMAN INTERVIEW, CHICAGO: 1976/2016 Ruby Rich fest met Chantal Akerman in 1974 atthe legendary Belgion film festival EXPRMNTL (International Festival of Exper- {mental Cinema of Knokke-e-Zoute). The festival had been founded by Jacques Ledous, who was also the head curator of the Royal Film Archive of Belgium (Cinémathéque royale de Belgique) where he wosld serve, for forty years, until is death in 2988, While it hasbeen said that Ledoux eupported Akerman's work —and surely his Polis origins and experi ‘mental film tastes malke such an afliation likely —in fact hae films were rejected from the EXPRMNTL that year ‘She was there she told me, to se the official selections, the films that had been deemed more worthy." ‘A mere two years later, Akerman would tour the United States in triumph with her celebrated breakthrough film, Jeane Delman, 23, quad Corsmerce, 1080 Bruxelles Jeanne Dielran, 23 Commerce Quay, 1080 Brusely, 1975). She came te Chicago at my invitation for a serening atthe Film Cea. ter, School of the Art Institute of Chicago, on November 19, 1976. I was working asa curator there, and she stayed with ime and my then-partner in our parachute-bedecked guest 00m in a loft on the eighth floor ofthe legendary Palatine Building. Six floors below was the loft of my friends and neighbors Kate Horfield and Lyn Blumenthal, who had recently lunched the Video Data Bank and were busily shooting a startup collection of video interviews with artist, emphasi2- {ng women. Using their new sac ofthe art, black and white Portapak camers, Horsfeld shot and recorded an interview ‘with Chantal that I conducted. Somehow there was only one casete, so the interview ends rather abruptly after fifty mi- nutes when the tape runs out and no other can be founds it ‘was conducted inthe tiny ofice/studio of the VB in down- town Chicago, ‘A few things need to be understood before immersion in this voice from the archive. First, consider that Akerman ‘was just becoming knowa at the time: even cinephiles did rot yet know her mime. Her earlier work had not been shown or written about in the United States and had barely ‘been given any atention at all, She was simultaneously lucky and unlucky to make her most famous and acclaimed flm at the age of 2g, a masterpiece that defined her earcer and also shadowed her many other brilliant accomplishments ‘This inerview, therefore, represents what is very much _gettng-to-know yous conversation, for there was litle svail- able to read about her a that date, nothing about the earlier ‘work, and pre-interet, no access to any of i. ‘Alo, consider the context. However unlikely it may scem today, Jeanne Dielman was being taken up asa feminist man- ifesto, analyzed in study groups, and held up as a case in point for multiple interventions and discourses regarding ‘what a radical feminist aesthetic might look like onscreen. ‘There was a great yearning to define a feminist film aes- thetic, and Jeanme Diclman ft the bill so very perfectly that i was championed in arguments that spread like wildfire. ‘This instrumental use of the film, eventually, would set Akerman off on her lifelong refusal to “belong” to any such group orto have her films conscripted into anyone's agendas; ‘bat in the beginning, she was not so adamant and in fact seems to welcome such interpretations. A similar fate awaited her earlier film Je su il elle (1974): once it was screened, it was taken up as a paradigmatic lesbian work, much to her chagrin, especially since she starred in it herself and soon grew embarrassed about that performance. In this carly conversation, she acknowledges the film's autobio- graphical roots, blaming her youth and her immaturity ‘hen she wrote the scripe years earlier, and hilariounly insist ing that its subject matter in important 1 suspect that her reluctance to have her work claimed for cither feminist or lesbian purposes might also have had something to do with a group famous in Paris atthe time. ‘The rise of the French women’s movement—the Mouee- rent de Liberation des Ferme: or MLEF—was characterized by numerous rival politcal formations, The most powerful ‘as Pychanalye et politique, centered around its charismatic leader, the psychoanalyst Antoinerte Fouque. This group, dubbed Payoher-pol, had its own publishing house andbookstore, but became notorious when it tried to copyright MLF as its own trademar, Chatting with me one evening, Chantal mentioned that they'd approached her once to make a film with them; shrugging, she sid simply, “I think is better not ta." (Chantal was certainly a figure to champion: tiny, imposs- bly young, full of passion and genius, and, as rumor already had it atthe time lesbian, Certainly, she went on to center her life around women and a selection of exceptional male collaborators. Foremost were her mather and aunts, whom she so often referenced and who deeply influenced her work, There was Delphine Seyrig, whom she'd meet for breakfast day after day, week after week, until her death from cancer at the age of 58° There was her longtime pro- duces, Marilyn Watelo, ist glimpsed that week in Chicago when she flew over from Brussels to stay at my lft with (Chantal: her longtime editor, Claire Atherton; and of course, ber life partner, the cellist Sonia Wieder-Atherton, whe #0 deeply influenced her life and cinema, For me, as her host and interviewer during that week long ago in Chicago, this interview was an attempe to cham- pion her example and to try to get the auteur herself to un- pack some ofthe meanings and referents of Jermne Dielman, her singular work, ae well sto putt into the context of her ‘own development; for Akerman, the performance of such acts of interpretation was something she would repudiate consistently across the years. That's your jb, she would chas- tive her interlocuors, whether cities or avdience members, arguing that her job was to make the films, not explain them. Here, not yet so guarded, she sometimes gives in and provides interesting information, some familiar from later years some strikingly new. This interview, then, offers @ glimpse of a very young Chantal Alkerman in the process, essentially, of becoming herself, Here, in print forthe fire time, is tha text.” B Ruay Rics: Let's begin with your decision to shoot Yyour first fllm (Saute ma ville [Blow Up My Town}, 1968) in 35mm. CCriawrat Aszn4s: Yes but I was kind oferazy. Not ernzy, exactly, but I thought that if I make a shore film I can show ieto anyone and it wll help me. cst How old were you when you made it? Axeioass Fighteen, But, infact, when you make a film in black and white and when you do only ane night of shoot- ing, is almost the same [cost] to make it in 35mm as in 16mm. So that’s why I did it [had the opportunity to have a camera almost fr free. Rice How did you get the ‘equipment? Were you in school, or did you know somebody? ‘Axersiax: I was in school, but I ented it for, ike, $10 for the night. So, you can always find $10, ici: What is the film about? What ist ike? Anceruas In some ways, its the opposite of Joanne Diziman [Not exactly, but it has something to do [vith that]... you know that [scene] in Jeanne Dieiman? I'l make you a cirle* (She gestures was acting init and i's me inthe kitchen do- {ng things, but they ae al [weong]... you know, lke whea | open the water, the water comes into my face, and things like that—a bit ike atragicomedy. And afer that, I commit suicide, Laughs) No, but i all atthe same level and very fast like that. That’ about it Re Avensis: Yes. }youmake Héte/ Monterey [18721 after that? ‘no. When I made tha, it was in68, But 1 ida’ nish the ein, I dda’ irish the song. You know, doing the shoot—when ifs one day—is almost easier than finding an editing machine, mixing; you know, to mix you have whave someone cs. So waited another year todo the ‘mixing and the song editing, and ater that it tayed in the Jab because Idd have the money to pay the bill And f- rally the lab called me after two years: I had to pick up the film and I had to pay. So we made an arrangement and got the fl. Because at that point in time, I efe Brussels, T went 10 aris and I just hung around. I didnt film. I didn’t know if | would beable to make another one, And someone shoved the film on the TV and that was the beginning of something che because it tated 1 exis And the second fil was film that I ust don like The fist lm was not formalist at all. wel the song was lle bits but [jus [id it, kaowing nothing. But in the second film, which I made three years ater the fet one, I had alk seady started to think about the form, but I didat integrate amy thinking. So ifs already in long-shot, because I ad alk ready started to think about editing and the manipulation of the editing, Bu its not stylized inside, you know, the actors are improvising, which I hate now, but atthe time I didn’t know what was wrong. And when they do improvise, they ‘want tobe ver—you know vert? Like werité—ics: Naturalistic? Axeeuass (Nodding) They wanted tobe natural, and they wanted to do Iie, addl] many things to the subject to make it more natural—and you just lose the point, you know? I dida’s know Thad to organize what they have to-do in the shot 30 that the shot has some shythm. So it was very mild, you know, roting in it. And the subject was the day of a woman, and she's bitbourgeois and the holidays, and suddenly the child isappears, And she’s looking in all these places to find the chil. But she wasn't rally, Things like that. Ricks Was your first feature, then, Je Tu 1/ Elle? Anenauass Yeah, the frst featute. Thad made Hotel Monterey haere (pointing to er head). You want me totale about the ther film? I was desperate because the [second] film was 30 ‘bad, And thought—because I liked the firstfilm—I thought jus did itby chance, because ic was the first one. thought TT like to make films, which you think for afew years. [then] discover that you're not Its relly annoying lets sa. So Teame here tothe United States] and saw some other fils, in New York. And it was there that [learned about tension in film, and things ike that, which I didn't know. ics What fllms did you see ther AgeRMAS: A lot of films that were at Anthology Film Ar. chives: Stan Brakhge, Michael Snow, Andy Warhol, George Landow, some Hills Frampton, too. And I discovered that you can make a file without narrative or point of view. Its strange, it was ally arcliefin some ways. Now I ony want to:make narrative films; but at the time it was lke a libera- tion, Sol made that film Hotel Monerey. Is notte that its totally nat a narrative because it has sense of continuity, you ‘know, it starts tthe beginning on the main flor and finishes atthe roof, Iestarts at night and finishes at dawn. Ricks You made H6te/ Monterey when you were still In New York and before you returned to Paris? Anetaass Yes, the hotel is in New York. ics: Did you always feel that you were evolving from ‘making these sorts of personal film to making a feature, a film that would be shown in a theater? Die you always have that in mind? Awexus le was not so precise, no. Las just walking from ‘one thing to another without any big gel Rice: When did you make Je Tu if Elle? What is it ike7® ‘Agexoax: I made Je Ti I! Blle in 1974 but its based an a sory [had written in “68 or 6g, something like that. And its very personal. [eis not autobiographical, because itis very structured; but it has some elements that I really experienced ‘when I was younger— because, you know, [ had writen it in (68 lhen she wus a teenager]... Ita film in three parts and it’s about a woman who was me, an adolescent in ft. Tam playing the adolescent... 1 ike three different tips ‘And the first partis ina room, In the second par I leave the room and take a trip with a truck driver. And in the third part, [sce a woman who was my friend [lover] before, and T stay with her for the night. But you know, the subject ‘matters not wo important. Let’ say, is more ike... don't now it’s hard ro explain bocause chat film was not “eoncep- tual” ike Jeanne Dieiman. Infact, di that film exaely lke had done the frst one, without thinking too much about it. Rict Do you feel that Jeanne Diefman is the first fm {in which you really felt that the narrative and the form and the emotion all fit together in the way that you wanted? ‘Axexauass Yeah exactly Riot | know that because ofits subject matter—the housework, her being a prostitute, and because of the murder—there’s been a lot of feminist attention ‘and a lot of reaction from women. Has it been what ‘you would have expected, or has it been different from what you intended? | am curious about that. ‘Axess: The response? Rict Yes, to Jeanne Dielman. InFrance or in Belgium, | don’t know which. ‘Axexauass I didn’t know exactly what the response would be. You know, when you make it you just make it. After it ‘as finished, when I saw the complete film, I said Oh my ‘304, people will no be willing wo stay! Beeaus iis very dif ficult for me to imagine what they are waiting to sce in a film in a commercial theater. I didn't know Riot But you weren't thinking at all sociologically when making the film? ‘AwERWAN: [explained this to the audience two days ago? ‘We had first siritten another sript, Marlyn and me, and that one was much more sociological, That means, with ideas that we knew what we were saying, in fact. But we ‘coul't find any ending, because we needed to find a scio- logical end that was reasonable, and we dida't know how todo that. And after awhile it was becoming a moral problem: ‘who are we to find an ending forthe problem of a woman, of a 45-year-old woman? Infact, we are no in her skin ‘And we realized that we wanted to express one idea after another, so we had to finda scene to cover the idea. And af- ter awhile we didn’t know what todo with that kind of lap- proach]... and when [had writen that onc didn't know what I had written, rally I didn't know. You know « «1 knew that she would be @ prostisate—that I knew—and that covers some [of ou] ideas, that she was a housewife, a prostitute, bu chats about. ‘The other thing is that I had really written [the sri] almost without thinking what that covers. I knew that it ‘was very strong inside of me because of the image I have from my childhood. You knovs, my mother, my avnt—it ‘was more that than covering some ideas frm some sociolog- ical point of view. Reese So the selection of the different kinds of rituals that Seyrig enacts Is more from your observation than from any kind of Froudian theory? Axernans Exactly, exactly, But you didn’t understand the and they are important ... With the socond client, something's happening, and you understand from the begin- ning and from what she says that she had never had plea- sure, and you can understand what can happen with a ‘man. . it was an orgasm, for me, even though I don‘ show ia that provokes all the litle things that happen afterwards. [snot Freudian explanation —because everybody told me, you know, that when you have one, you want to have an- other one. But for me, in her station, the fact to moe have an orgasm was her las strength, you know, the lst space of freedom, that she didnt lec... you know, the lst space of freedom [was] oot have that orgasm. And because she had it because she was too weak t0 not have it... Everything was fling apart afterwards. ict So for her it's meant to be more of a deteat than a freedom coming? Axetoase es not s0 square as that. I don't consider that 9 have an orgusm is always the best thing, I's not ike Reich: fucking, have an orgasm, and that’ it® I don't know if thats exactly what Reich said, that everything will be allright, the theory of pleasure ... 30 1 don’t know if that covers any other theory, but that’s what I really fel. That's why 50 ‘many women don't have pleasure, because they protect some space, unconsciously. Ros Ike your explanation. Because I had heard ‘opinions about what would cause her then tostartto break down and | was troubled that it sounded too much like the kind of cliché of "yes, all she needs Is a good fuck” And | found it very hard to justify that explanation. Asian: Oh no, its just the con- trary, just the contrary, Because I don't think it was better fuck than all the others its just that she let it happen—because you are the one who decides in your head if ts going to happen or not, nobody ese. [think 0. A.man can be as good a fuck as he wants, if you Riou | found that the color in the film kept its tension alot, that the house and life were very sterilized, ‘but that the color was very sensual, Did you mean for the color to work that way for the audience? Axeroiass I didn't want an impressionist kind of light. 1 ‘wanted it very precise and very rich. In. fac, lights coming from above... Ri Axzraass Yes And tht is not supposed tobe the nicest way ‘olighta woman, you know what | mean? Because i's better to be lit ike that oh gestures tothe side) and she had just @ litle bit Uke tha fl light) so she wouldn't have blackness here ihe points nde her eyes) That’ what I wanted, because thar’show it isin houses, and not. impressionistic. And for the color to be strong. But I didn't know that it would give that effect. I just didn’t want the contrary effect. fom the sources? ics noticed the stills from the film give a completely different feeling because of being In black and white. Aexias: They are very bad, very cheap still. They are taken from the film, ftom the negative, not some sls that someone bas taken during the shooting, Its from the nega- tive ofthe film from outtakes... but ifs nat well printed. FRc | didn’t mean that! Just that seeing them, | realized that the fllm would have been much more tragic or grim or had a cinema verité kind of feel if it hhad been black and white. Axcess: Maybe Bergman! (Layph.) You know, Isaw some rushes of the film in black and white, and in some ways I was frightened by the color. cst Why? Axeroias I dont know. [can't say, Because inthe beginning ‘when I saw some rushes in black and white and some rushes {nolo don't know. it made me think strange things. orwas frightened by the color because it was geting so real in some ways ‘And black and white is kind of .. Riess Softer? ‘Axensas: Yeah, less powerful Ican- rot explain it in English, And also its distance that I didn’t nced, because the style of the film was enough of a distance. Ric How did you work with Delphine? How much of the style that she uses is her own and how much is fone that you had in ming? Ansan: Is hard to realy find the ine, bat we worked a Jotwith video, We were doing the rehearsals with vdeo, Be cause at the begining, she thought—because I didn't want her doing more than she had done in he film and all actors ae used to tying to be natural ke [said before—that she ‘wat not bringing me anything So we tarred to we video|for ‘layback] and lexplaned to her when she saw herself what ‘wanted, Because | tid one gestureis more than if you doten thousand that will help you to think you are natura In fact he undesioad right aay. Everything was wie ten, almost everything. She brings a lt. All the gestures that are not usually in the sripe were writen. And she si “1 don't have anything todo; eveything is writen! Usually ‘Thaveto find ll hos things that you have writen." Soat the Desig she was a ie it frustrated, but finally she Found her own way tobe extraordinary using what Ihad writen. t's turd She found a way to move. She docs't move ike that at all wally in if, and notin the fas, Her body J eannot exp... she brought how she moves and wses her body. Alors ayy... for] the lst shot when she make ove with the man and when she hasherowa kind of orgasm with him, we were discusing what the meaning was for ws, what ie was for me, what it was for her, snd fly she fu a way to expres tin the way you se I's hard to explain boca i's very litle detail and lot of tl, and bing together. ict: This is the love-making in the last scene, with the last man? That was terrifying to me, more than a horror film. ‘Axensase It wasterrifying! And Iwas almost no able to di- rect it She sid, "You want to do it again?” I said “No!” I couldn't stand it, And my mother was there, and she sid, “Oh, poor Delphine” ics: Your mother? ARERMAN: She came to see the shooting —just at that time, Langs.) Riot Did you discuss the film atall with your mother? Axeauas She loved the film. Yeah, She loved the film. And ‘when we were doing the shooting, once we brought some ‘tapes and a TV [monitor] and showed her the rehearsal of ‘Delphine eating some tartne, and also the scene when she males the meat, And she sid, "Ol, that poor woman, alone in that kitchen.” (Laughs) Things like that. She fle it very strongly, We dida’e discuss the scenes Rice But did you take a let from your mother? AKERQAS: Clr trampor. [8's “transposed.” But it has some part of my mother, for sure. She recognized herself in some parts When she sw all the corridor shots—ove did them ll at once, and she came to see the rushesshe suid, “Oh, is ‘exactly like me when I walk into the house and I don't know ‘what to do with myself but only, in my place Ihave a stait- case” Things like that. But I can say chat ifs ber, I cannot, rot at all. And not anymore anyway, because she is not a housewife anymore, She works, and always goes to estay- rants, and docs’t really make food anymore, She can't even do that 10 well anymore, Riot | don’t know what people have said about the use of prostitution in It, But in Adrienne Rich's Of Woman Born, she includes lots of letters from ‘women in the nineteenth century writing to lovelorn columns and talking about their marriage ‘responsibility, and the sexuality is talked about really like prostitution, talking about thelr obligation to their husband in the bed like in the kitchen. ‘Axexnas: Sure. know, I know. Rice: Were you thinking about that when choosing that? AKERNAS: Sure. Not about that book, but (Phere isa sudden interruption due to 4 microphone maine tion.) AKERNAN: Is it okay? Rice | was ust asking about the attitude of women. towards marriage itself as a kind of prostitution. Did you have that feeling? Did you see the prostitution as a more extreme way of depicting sexuality in general? ‘Axexvas: Yes. In some ways. In marriage, anyway, Some feminists say that right now you eannot make love with a ‘man without presituting yourself don't know about that. T’m not sure, don't know about that. And they also say that you are always raped, But that I don't know, [cant tll, But in marriage, it seems to be evident, for most women,Recs |hadn’t realized when seeing it what the caus of the murder would be, how much it was related to the sexuality. And you were talking a bit about how you meant for the murder to really be more on the same level with the other actions. Can youtalka little bit about the ending? Axemaase Yes ean say some things. In fact, alot of people were approaching me about the murder for different rea- sons. Some were approaching me because they say, "Oh, its symbolic, She kills the man to survive. Every woman must kil the man to survive.” Soto them Ihave to answer that its their problem—becauseifthey se that in the symbolic way, ‘which I dida't mean, it their own problem with women. "That's one thing. cit Was It mostly men who would say this? Anesouans Yeah, mostly men. They were offended by that. Some other people were saying it more from a formal point of view, which seemed to be more appropriate. In fict, I wanted that murder, you know thas one thing, have weit- tentlike that. Ie was logieal for me. Ie was not just o finish the film; the film was bul ike that, But I just want to an- swer, when people approach me for such and such «reason, you know, so I ean answer about that reason, but not ay I want it I just knew I wanted it, The people who approach ‘me for formal reason, they say, "Yes, murder is used in com- mercial things. [tis one of main things in commercial fils, ‘event violence and sex” [think is tue that they haves lt of murder in films, but they don't have a woman doing the dishes, Its like [they think that) wehen you shovr a woman doing the dishes, yous cannot show a murder, because it's not suppored to go together. And I think its realy going together very wel I showr the same intensity [in] the murder and the way she washes the dishes. So that’s not a good reason. ‘And als, if I didn’t create that murder, i like lot of ‘lms that just finish with that kind of subsle feeling, that it will just be a circle, And I think that’s a really cliché kind of ending, that kind of sensitive end. I didn't wane that at al 1 think everything was falling apart Infact, the meaning of the murder is not at alla liberation for me. Is because she. Iidoa't want o give an explanation, but, she thought that i she wil kil dhe effect that she will kill he cause also But the cause is much bigger than that, you know? ‘That ‘man is not the cause of the effect, you know what I mean? [Because she wanted everything in order, you know? I thinke so, 'm not in her head, And i is only an image also. I don't ‘knows: I cannot explain more than that. And also the lst shot isrmuch more dramatic think than the murder If had just finished with the murder, Ian un- derstand, okay, the film is finished, She killed. But ifs a complete eight : ‘minutes of film afterwards that is much more important and dramatic than the murder in itself, Rios Yeah, the murder is not shot dramatically at all. had the feeling that i's because of everyone's associations—as you sald, with Hollywood film—that people who are used to formal flm do not have the trouble that somebody ‘else might have with the length or with the rhythm or the kind of shooting, yet they haven't learned to get ‘away from thelr reaction to murder, that psychologically they give it more importance even if Its not shown. Axeroiass Sure, yeab, But infact, it was sot like any other gesture she has made. I don’t know. I dant agree. Because they make a kind of hierarchy. Sakis in close-up: it’s very hgh in the hierarchy ofthe image inthe commercial field ‘Someone doing the dishes ie very low But think ll the im- ages have the same importance, infact, A kiss and someone doing the dishes and murder. And so they are making an- other hierarchy when they don’t want murder because they say is too sensational, Why? I dont agree at all ‘Ric | find that interesting because | think that, in the United States atleast, alot of formal filmmaking has reached a sort of dead end from that kind of purism. Akexg4% [think so too, Very much so, You know, I'm not ncrested by [ith It was very powerful. when I came here in’72, and it really changed my whole [view]... it opened a Jot of things in my mind towards film. But now ice geting 0 academic, you know? You have to do like that one and like tha one. It's getting as oppresive as Hollywood was. In its way, because it docent reach such a big audience. But for people who know that kind of movie, you know its getting very oppresive. ics: To me, It's Interesting to take that kind of attitude from the formal film and then to go to the kind of subjects of Hollywood of emotion or of ‘character and narrative that have been taboo, and then to work putting them together again, Axes: Hmm, aha but [rally think isnot par hard, no coincidence, that I'm European: because, infact, [ came haere, I took some freedom from the European filmmaking, and I went back to Europe and I took freedom fram the American strucrualist or formalist ils.Rick: In Europe, there seems to ‘be much more of a tradition of doing a kind of avant-garde ‘work within a feature or a narrative flm . ‘Axensass In New York, it was no Hollywood . .. The prodcer was ever as important in Europe as in ‘Hollywood. The auteur was always zameone also, You have hnad some freedom, always. Not totally, but some, You start from the beginning of your movie and you finish withthe editing. And here, every space was chopped [up £0 it was ‘a kind of product So even if I like some Hollywood films, it was done a litle bit like Campbell's soup. It was not the cee in Europe. When you are a director, you srt with the srip, working withthe man who does the scrip, and you finish with the mixing. You don’t just shoot another ane ancl another one and another one, without staying to work with the editor. ‘ct Did you do the editing yourself on Jeanne Dielman? AnERMAN: No, I di it with someone, with an editor? But I ‘was thee ll the time. ‘Rion: Was there another print that was longer than this one?” AgERMAS: No, that was a mistake, In fac, I never counted Ihow long the film was. knew it was cleven rel, sol knew hhow long each reel was supposed to be, 2 I thought it was 43 hours and 43 minutes. But finally when I looked at ‘my watch, I saw it wae 3 hours and 18 minutes, So, it was 1 mistake atthe beginning. No, that was the only print. Rice: How do you feel that the attention given to Jeanne Dielman has changed how you can work, of how you feel about it? Agenwans Very bad! (Laughe) No, with Jeanne Dielman really think that Ihave reached a point, it’ like an achieved work. I have achieved what I was looking for, for seven years, sinee I [started] in film. So now I ean doa film lke that I can repeat it and repeat it again, which I don't want So ave to find another way. I have to look for something lsc, which I don't know yet. The only one thing I know: if I make a film closer to me—now I think I will do that—I may find another way, not just be stuck in that formalist ‘mode, because it can be formalist [formulaic] t00, you know? ‘Thats the only route I can see for me right now. T made the [new] film in New York [but] I would like to work abroad in another space, so that will be a change, too... You know, when you area child and an adolescent, you are not going out in the world in some ways. Now, I ‘know a lot about how the machine is working—the world machine, Not everything i inside [internal like when I was fan adolescent. Thats why I think I am going outside Riot For this next film?” Awexas: Yeah, ict: What Is the flm you just made In New York? Axon: Is fl about New York." I don't say that Lam ‘making film where I take [in all of New York, just some [New York shots. And the sound tack is partly compose by the eters my mother sent me when I was there, thee or five years ago, and also other songs 1. film de pasoge, that will belp me to go somewhere els, | tink, because its not as ambitious as eanne Delman. 1 was feling okay, but was oot very ambitious. t was the work I wanted to do and not do a ‘ig big thing... Soe was Gin, it wasa pleasure. The only one thing is cha lve to work with actors, and in that fn there ‘were no actors] it was les interesting inthe shooting, The mixing and the editing were very interesting, butt shoot, it ‘was nothing much, no ke Jesnne Diehnan, because love to ‘work with actors and it was missing i chat fiz, Rict: Do you work with women on the crew as well as with actresses? ‘Awexouans Ie depends Inthe last fil I did not work with a lot of people—just Babette [Mangolte] and some other ‘women. I could maybe at ancther time, but that was not the right time, But what do you mean? Rio | just wondered if you preferred working with ‘women or how much you collaborate with the people in the crew? ‘Axexwa: Not too much in the lastone, And I worked with almostall women. And I prefer it but it’s hard, It’ harder in some ways and easier in other ways. Riot I's hard because of the energy, or hard to find ‘women to do it with? AgERQax: In some ways women are not used [10] ke the -men who work in film. ‘That's one thing, Not all of them, bout the one I had with me. Alo, the affecivity"® They are ot used to putting affectvity “there” (motioning off the de), With men, they work, even i they don like the people ‘who work with them. Or if they do, if they have problems, they work because that’s what they've been doing since (ihe postures behind her) long time. With the women who were ‘with me, all che problems were there in the middle of the‘work, the sentimental problem, all kinds the personal prob- lem, the political problem, everything was there, right in the rmidale, You ean’ ust put them away for the time of work- ing, whichis very hard in a film because you have to be very fast, and you have to finish what you're supposed to do in one day, Ros So they are more demanding? There's a more total kind of involvement when working with women, do you think? They are ess willing to repress all other aspects of thelr fe (for the shoot]? Axenaans Yes (he gga) think so, This part doesn't have torbe public, but... the lst ime [have worked with a man, the sound man, think he loves me, but I don’t love him. But hae tll does very good jab, But inthe case of woman, it could be just the opposite. [things ike that happen, because it shows more ike itn some way, bu it’s very hard. Roc It's very intense. AxenaNs A movie is already so complicated that you can really be doing without that. Bu also, you know what, my shooting was very hard I don't know how I finished, But af= terwards when I did the mixing, and it was a man, a nice ‘man, when he started with his jokes ob, I sd, I even prefer the women I had in my shooting, His joke! I can‘ take that ‘And also, had to fight with him to have something. He ‘knew everything—the mixing [ didn't know alot about the ‘mixing, o [tried to have the things I wanted. And it was very Southeen, you know, se were smiling all the time, but it was «smiling fight. And when Delphine came to the stu- dio, you know, forthe words [the looping and post-ubbing] and she had to breathe for the love scene, I took a guy #2 [record] that [but] because of the mixing guy, you know, they were joking, I just coulda direct it they were making me sick. He was very nic, but something was wrong. I cannot explain. And Delphine was telling me, “But ay something, Chantal!” And I was jue paralyzed. And that doesnt hap- pen with women, Even if there were some other things that ‘were really hard, but that kind of very deep thing, that you cannot sce what is your part, what i the situation between ‘aman and a woman who make you like that... oop. So I prefer to work with women anyway. Roos Would a man like that sit through Jeanne Dielman Axenaase T think 50, yes have sen some (Laughing) yes. Ros And do they feel threatened by it? ‘Axesaan: It depends because they «an react (by) laughing, things like: | that, IU a way to avoid i, wo protex yourself They have lot of resources to protet themselves (more laughter. ics: You're working on the script now for the next film. Is t again going to be akind of day inthe life of awoman, and do you think it wll deal again still with that kind of sexuality and that kind of tension? Arenas Yes, because the subjects about a woman like me who meets an older woman, her mother in fact. But that’s not exactly the subject. I’ hard to explain, but it’ alo about ‘women. And about specific problems, and alo the problem that we don't know where to go right now. Its kind of also in the feminist thing where] we are stuck litle bit. And I ‘would like to make a fim about that. And more specifically about myself being stuck. You know, [cannot talk fr all the others, but what is my feeling right now about that. Meeting another woman who is 45 oF 50, who is my mother. [e's nat ruc—she doesn't meet me at that level—but who believes inthe new woman, And I myself cannot believe so much, 30 strongly in that new woman anymore. You know what I mean? [t's like that kind of thing, ‘ics It seems that’s the only thing to do now Is to ‘make that kind of film, to try to figure out where to go next in art as well as inte, Axerian: Hmmm, yes, it will be in art.» « because, you know; I hope I will go somewhere clse than Jeanne Dicinan (ausing) inthe form, Notes 1 Por mote on Akerman, our fst mecing ia 974, and some of my other thoughts on her work, see the chapter “Prologue: Knokke- Heist and the Fury That Wes Ein- tagh” and "Desgeing Desire: Chantal Akeroan® in my Chick Flick: Theories and Memori of the Fein ile “Movement (Dutham, NC: Duke University Pres, 1998, 136-73 a love that her close relationship with Delphine Seyrig cannot overstated On diferent ozasions, hey each spoke tome thi fendship and deep nd, withifelong break fans, and with Seyigs appearance in Akerman’ later Golden Eights (18) as Jeane Schvare. Apart from her acting, Seyrig ws an activist and passionate frist who Faunded the Simone de Henuvar video production center and archive in Pars Akerman bad teri time coming to terms with eyrigs death from canec in gg. eis noble tat Akerman hers died just days before the ath annie say of Series own dj tis cab that Akermanherself died jose days before the sven haem of Sei 13. Chantal Aferman: An Iteniew, Lyn oj Slumenthal and. Kate Horsfld (0970), 3038, US. Thanks o Kate Horfield and Abina Manning for permission to traneibe and publish the text ere. Thanks tothe Video Data Bank Preservation Program and the Lyn Blumenthal Mernorial Fund forthe digisng and wander ofthe crginal Portapak caste, Images inthis text are ffom the VDB interview. For purchase, sce the Video Data Bank website: srnwvdborg/ttdeschattal-akertnan-interview. Thanks, too, to Marc Francs for transcription ssstance 44 Here, Akerman draws a cic in the air wo describe the con- nection between the early fen with her in the central ce in the kitehen, andthe kitchen with Seyrigin Jemne Dielnan, isnot clear, but sbe apparently stalking about Lenfon id on je jouer une fee rarite (The Beloved Chil, or 1 Play at Being 4 Married Woman, 1073), the shor she made directly after Sate ma vile 6, Since Je, lle had not yet Been shown in the United States or written about, this is acully Akerman’ own ‘description of her fl for & new audicnce with no precon- 3 ception of the work, Note patculaly her insistence that “the subjects mot important” when itis in fact entirely sea sstional Akeroan is refering to an eater screening atthe Walker ‘Art Center in Minneapolis, where she gave that explanation to the audience and to curator Melinds Ward “Hire she is referring to Wilhelm Reichs The Function of he Orga, origially publed in German in sg. Tranaated ito English and combined with his “ongane box” and bis term, the “sexual revolution,” made Reich a central and cntsoveril figure inthe eounterelnure movernens ofthe 19506 and 1. Jc was shot by Babette Mangolte and edited by Patricia Canine ‘There was inital confusion because ofa dicrepancy in run- sing times which ed people to chink thatthe film had een cat, but ere Akerman explains that was bated on her own, rstake and that this is the only version. “The net film, which she i dseussing here, is Ler render ous Pana Meetings with Anna, 1978). “The film she had just shot and deseribes here is News from Heme (1079 By ‘affectivity” she seems to mean: feelings, emotions, per sonal reactions that could disrupt the shooting or certainly the calm on the set