One thing you didn't really mention but I don't think you can discount - Oliver is funny. Humour has a strong persuasive effect. You'll rarely find a strong ideologue on either side who is also very legitimately funny.
I used to work with one of the guys who writes Oliver's material, Daniel OBrien. Him and Cody Johnston (who does Some More News on Youtube). I did sourcing and fact checking work and editing for them at Cracked. That work put me on an ideological journey from right to left, one because that's where the facts led, but also because it was fun.
That's so true! Naturally, people will want to consume the ideological content instead of forcing themselves to. I'm currently reading capital, and even as someone who enjoys theory, it is exhausting! If we can sneak political education into entertainment, it's a win win!
This so hard. I still remember following Bernie and John back in 2015-2016 and thinking those pesky leftists are too much, and by 2017 I was involved with the IWW and calling for an end to capitalism lol. I still watch John tbh
That's awesome! I imagine most people who consider themselves leftists today have some similar evolution. I haven't watched him regularly, but I know he's really popular.
I generally agree. Bernie was who started my movement left and people like John Oliver, Kyle Kulinski, Jimmy Dore (back when he actually was progressive), etc. pushed me. Now, I'm a Marxist-Leninist. People can be convinced of Leftist ideas like how you said. They watch John Oliver now, later they're reading Current Affairs and Jacobin, and eventually they can end up as full-blown Socialists.
I couldn't agree more! I really think of these guys (Oliver, Bernie, etc.) as opening the door to leftism. Then, people get curious and further educate themselves, as you did.
"I may not have read Marx's Kapital; but I got capital's marks all over me."
-Big Bill Haywood, Longshoreman, Union Founder, and (later) Stalinist (unfortunately).
You wanna know why I have so much faith in the left in 2024? Because the young and working folks ain't dumb; they're coming to see that the "bootstrap myth" only keeps them struggling, and they may never have a solid place and a stake in the survival of the current capitalist system.
And the excuses the shills for capitalism make are wearing thinner, bc they won't reform the system from the predatory mess it's become. Pretty soon there'll be no "pulling them left" required; if the left we have now will only pull its head out and listen to these folks.
You're right about the decreasing need to "pull" people. We're in a housing crisis, stagnating wages, and imperialist wars in the Middle East. Capitalism tries to hide its flaws, but it's becoming glaringly apparent.
Commentators like Oliver might serve as accelerators in the future more than door-openers.
Demonizing Stalin will never help the cause of socialism. Anti-Stalin propaganda, in fact, pretty effectively on its own, has thwarted most serious consideration of socialism, just as it was intended to do originally. He was the builder of the first socialist state (not utopia), and the mistakes he made aren't really the mistakes many people think he made. Better to not demonize Stalin or Stalinism, but be ready to answer the concerns people will bring up themselves about it in a nuanced and constructive way that looks at not only Stalin's mistakes, real vs distortions, but also the good things about the USSR, which, possibly save for the WWII victory, are never mentioned.
Marxism is anti-ideological. Marx felt ideologies are systems of thought which mask and distort the material reality so that those in power may maintain power.
Funny, the Soviets never thought that way. Anyway, while you're peevishly "Well, actually"ing about dead people, some of us are trying to push back on predatory capitalism from *this* century. If you one day decide to be done playing Red Emily Post, maybe join in.
John Oliver is great. The DSA has a lot of work to do nationally and in its local chapters. As just a quick explanation I can only point out that locally women who are interested in being part of the party here where I am have described a level of patriarchal bullshit and gaslighting when they show up that runs out the (female) members with the most energy and gaslights them when they complain about it. I'd say they did better or worse with their BIPOC members if there were any numbers large enough to know which was happening. Maybe this is just a local situation, but I've got my suspicions it's a pervasive problem.
Off, that's sad to hear. Even in progressive spaces, toxic behaviors can bubble to the top. It's such a shame that we have lost so many prospective members.
From what I've heard, our DSA chapter is well-behaved. But I'm a guy, so I could be naive.
You know I'm in the South. Even though it's a blue city it is probably one of the most segregated cities in the country I'd say. It does seem like an uphill battle with low rewards and plenty of stress to get white guys to sit down occasionally when I can go volunteer with people who I don't mind sitting down for, if you understand me. I know this, there are a lot more saviors than there are allies in a lot of progressive places and it's something that needs to be addressed. Although I think in areas with more Gen Z folks involved this is not happening so much. Can't say I've witnessed it re DSA just that I keep hearing that's something they are doing much better with in general.
I’ve heard this critique from several leftist orgs. I tried doing a chapter of an old party regarding liberation of a nation and the old guard was so toxic it collapsed. Old tendencies can break efforts so hard
Case in point, my school board representative is a DSA member. You'd expect him to be progressive, right? Well he could be counted on for voting against bullshit (weapons detection AI system) that was going to pass anyway and thus he looks good but changes nothing. However he with two other board members called an emergency meeting and defunded bus transportation to all of the magnet schools. Which is basically going to lead to segregation of the most successful schools, more by income but also by race because they're inextricably connected. The DSA had done door knocking for his campaign and released a statement saying they didn't support his vote. But until he dropped out of the race they were still going to knock on doors for the guy. Because "he's the most progressive candidate we have". Folks, if the most progressive candidate you have votes to take away school buses from poor families then you have bigger problems than his school board race. SMH
Yeah that's kind of what the general feeling is, like did dude take kickbacks over school district transportation?! Which is both disturbing and a little hilarious at how little it takes for some people to cross the line. Not even a city council position yet and already selling out blatantly to lobbyists? Oddly low ambition for that kind. Lol 😐
I’m unfamiliar with his comments on Stein, but I don’t think he needs to be perfect for him to aid our cause. There are many imperfect leftist commentators who get things wrong, myself included.
Totally agree with this piece, Joe. I wrote something in a similar vein after Trump's election when folks were saying that somehow joking about Trump was keeping us from organizing. https://jacobin.com/2017/01/comedy-trump-humor-alec-baldwin
Thanks, Danny! "We shouldn't laugh at bad politicians" is such a weird hill to die on. Even if you think it's true, don't worry about it. Go organize! No one is not attending union meetings because they're too busy laughing.
John Oliver is a liberal idiot who is married to a war on torture veteran who served for the most diabolical military regime in world history. This is such a braindead take. He makes me nauseous
The book ‘Das Kapital’ was not written for those who simply had a bad day at work but rather for those who have multiple bad days at work.
I do not know what is your impression of the majority of employees today in the West (namely, if they simply have a bad day at work now and then or if they suffer on a daily basis) but in case you think they do not particularly suffer, do you think socialism can still occur without the necessary depriving material conditions? On the other hand, in case your impression of the employees is the latter, and thus employees are highly dissatisfied with their working conditions, why not suggest to them, indeed, to read Das Kapital?
I would never steer anyone away from reading theory (I'm currently reading Capital myself), but it's a gargantuan text that is just not digestible to the average person. If someone is burnt out and tired all day, they're not going to be receptive to Marx's theory on the definition of a commodity.
I don't think the question is "John Oliver or Marx," but rather recognizing what is currently in play. Like it or not, those burnt-out workers are watching John Oliver. That's good! We should capture them with more radical thoughts, including Marx's work. Does that answer your question?
Progressives did a lot of damage to the Democrat party, as did the Freedom Caucus and Libertarian party. In the beginning, the Libertarian party was created due to concerns over the Nixon party. That was when they were for our Country. Ironically, now they're for corruption, DICTATORSHIP & pretty much against everything they once stood for. Both sides have done extreme damage to Americans by dividing us to the point of a possible civil war. I never thought I'd see one creep do so much damage and have every Republican helping him. Truly breaks my heart.
One thing you didn't really mention but I don't think you can discount - Oliver is funny. Humour has a strong persuasive effect. You'll rarely find a strong ideologue on either side who is also very legitimately funny.
I used to work with one of the guys who writes Oliver's material, Daniel OBrien. Him and Cody Johnston (who does Some More News on Youtube). I did sourcing and fact checking work and editing for them at Cracked. That work put me on an ideological journey from right to left, one because that's where the facts led, but also because it was fun.
That's so true! Naturally, people will want to consume the ideological content instead of forcing themselves to. I'm currently reading capital, and even as someone who enjoys theory, it is exhausting! If we can sneak political education into entertainment, it's a win win!
This so hard. I still remember following Bernie and John back in 2015-2016 and thinking those pesky leftists are too much, and by 2017 I was involved with the IWW and calling for an end to capitalism lol. I still watch John tbh
That's awesome! I imagine most people who consider themselves leftists today have some similar evolution. I haven't watched him regularly, but I know he's really popular.
I generally agree. Bernie was who started my movement left and people like John Oliver, Kyle Kulinski, Jimmy Dore (back when he actually was progressive), etc. pushed me. Now, I'm a Marxist-Leninist. People can be convinced of Leftist ideas like how you said. They watch John Oliver now, later they're reading Current Affairs and Jacobin, and eventually they can end up as full-blown Socialists.
I couldn't agree more! I really think of these guys (Oliver, Bernie, etc.) as opening the door to leftism. Then, people get curious and further educate themselves, as you did.
"I may not have read Marx's Kapital; but I got capital's marks all over me."
-Big Bill Haywood, Longshoreman, Union Founder, and (later) Stalinist (unfortunately).
You wanna know why I have so much faith in the left in 2024? Because the young and working folks ain't dumb; they're coming to see that the "bootstrap myth" only keeps them struggling, and they may never have a solid place and a stake in the survival of the current capitalist system.
And the excuses the shills for capitalism make are wearing thinner, bc they won't reform the system from the predatory mess it's become. Pretty soon there'll be no "pulling them left" required; if the left we have now will only pull its head out and listen to these folks.
You're right about the decreasing need to "pull" people. We're in a housing crisis, stagnating wages, and imperialist wars in the Middle East. Capitalism tries to hide its flaws, but it's becoming glaringly apparent.
Commentators like Oliver might serve as accelerators in the future more than door-openers.
Also, PHENOMENAL Haywood quote!
Demonizing Stalin will never help the cause of socialism. Anti-Stalin propaganda, in fact, pretty effectively on its own, has thwarted most serious consideration of socialism, just as it was intended to do originally. He was the builder of the first socialist state (not utopia), and the mistakes he made aren't really the mistakes many people think he made. Better to not demonize Stalin or Stalinism, but be ready to answer the concerns people will bring up themselves about it in a nuanced and constructive way that looks at not only Stalin's mistakes, real vs distortions, but also the good things about the USSR, which, possibly save for the WWII victory, are never mentioned.
If trying to rehabilitate Stalin is your particular ideological fetish, you're not gonna get anywhere with me.
There are approximately 1.5 billion more important things to address than your peevish gripes about how the Red Tsar has been portrayed.
Marxism is anti-ideological. Marx felt ideologies are systems of thought which mask and distort the material reality so that those in power may maintain power.
Funny, the Soviets never thought that way. Anyway, while you're peevishly "Well, actually"ing about dead people, some of us are trying to push back on predatory capitalism from *this* century. If you one day decide to be done playing Red Emily Post, maybe join in.
LOL!
I love John😊
John Oliver is great. The DSA has a lot of work to do nationally and in its local chapters. As just a quick explanation I can only point out that locally women who are interested in being part of the party here where I am have described a level of patriarchal bullshit and gaslighting when they show up that runs out the (female) members with the most energy and gaslights them when they complain about it. I'd say they did better or worse with their BIPOC members if there were any numbers large enough to know which was happening. Maybe this is just a local situation, but I've got my suspicions it's a pervasive problem.
Off, that's sad to hear. Even in progressive spaces, toxic behaviors can bubble to the top. It's such a shame that we have lost so many prospective members.
From what I've heard, our DSA chapter is well-behaved. But I'm a guy, so I could be naive.
You know I'm in the South. Even though it's a blue city it is probably one of the most segregated cities in the country I'd say. It does seem like an uphill battle with low rewards and plenty of stress to get white guys to sit down occasionally when I can go volunteer with people who I don't mind sitting down for, if you understand me. I know this, there are a lot more saviors than there are allies in a lot of progressive places and it's something that needs to be addressed. Although I think in areas with more Gen Z folks involved this is not happening so much. Can't say I've witnessed it re DSA just that I keep hearing that's something they are doing much better with in general.
Well, I'm glad to hear there's at least some progress!
I’ve heard this critique from several leftist orgs. I tried doing a chapter of an old party regarding liberation of a nation and the old guard was so toxic it collapsed. Old tendencies can break efforts so hard
Case in point, my school board representative is a DSA member. You'd expect him to be progressive, right? Well he could be counted on for voting against bullshit (weapons detection AI system) that was going to pass anyway and thus he looks good but changes nothing. However he with two other board members called an emergency meeting and defunded bus transportation to all of the magnet schools. Which is basically going to lead to segregation of the most successful schools, more by income but also by race because they're inextricably connected. The DSA had done door knocking for his campaign and released a statement saying they didn't support his vote. But until he dropped out of the race they were still going to knock on doors for the guy. Because "he's the most progressive candidate we have". Folks, if the most progressive candidate you have votes to take away school buses from poor families then you have bigger problems than his school board race. SMH
Jesus that’s straight up infiltrator behavior
Yeah that's kind of what the general feeling is, like did dude take kickbacks over school district transportation?! Which is both disturbing and a little hilarious at how little it takes for some people to cross the line. Not even a city council position yet and already selling out blatantly to lobbyists? Oddly low ambition for that kind. Lol 😐
Maybe they think that the lower stakes are easier to get away with. Less oversight and such
Oppressive tendencies*
I stopped watching Oliver after his dishonest hit piece on Jill Stein. If he isn’t trustworthy, why waste your time watching him?
I’m unfamiliar with his comments on Stein, but I don’t think he needs to be perfect for him to aid our cause. There are many imperfect leftist commentators who get things wrong, myself included.
Not to mention he’s married to a war on torture veteran. He’s the definition of a shitlib
Totally agree with this piece, Joe. I wrote something in a similar vein after Trump's election when folks were saying that somehow joking about Trump was keeping us from organizing. https://jacobin.com/2017/01/comedy-trump-humor-alec-baldwin
Thanks, Danny! "We shouldn't laugh at bad politicians" is such a weird hill to die on. Even if you think it's true, don't worry about it. Go organize! No one is not attending union meetings because they're too busy laughing.
My kids love Oliver, and he’s more effective at criticizing capitalism than maybe anyone else on tv
That's a good way to put it. Though he might not go, "this is because of capitalism," he connects the dots for his audience.
Right on, Joe! The last show he did about Project 2025 was outstanding and informative. It was also FUNNY AS HELL!
Funny is so important! Nobody wants to read or listen to a set of facts. Any way to get people engaged is so helpful.
Love this!
❤️🇵🇸
John Oliver is a liberal idiot who is married to a war on torture veteran who served for the most diabolical military regime in world history. This is such a braindead take. He makes me nauseous
Hi Joe,
The book ‘Das Kapital’ was not written for those who simply had a bad day at work but rather for those who have multiple bad days at work.
I do not know what is your impression of the majority of employees today in the West (namely, if they simply have a bad day at work now and then or if they suffer on a daily basis) but in case you think they do not particularly suffer, do you think socialism can still occur without the necessary depriving material conditions? On the other hand, in case your impression of the employees is the latter, and thus employees are highly dissatisfied with their working conditions, why not suggest to them, indeed, to read Das Kapital?
I would never steer anyone away from reading theory (I'm currently reading Capital myself), but it's a gargantuan text that is just not digestible to the average person. If someone is burnt out and tired all day, they're not going to be receptive to Marx's theory on the definition of a commodity.
I don't think the question is "John Oliver or Marx," but rather recognizing what is currently in play. Like it or not, those burnt-out workers are watching John Oliver. That's good! We should capture them with more radical thoughts, including Marx's work. Does that answer your question?
John Oliver is using us to make money, and I have tested him with something very practical.
https://theochino.medium.com/is-john-oliver-an-hypocrite-by-commodifying-our-anger-1ab5cf17368f
Progressives did a lot of damage to the Democrat party, as did the Freedom Caucus and Libertarian party. In the beginning, the Libertarian party was created due to concerns over the Nixon party. That was when they were for our Country. Ironically, now they're for corruption, DICTATORSHIP & pretty much against everything they once stood for. Both sides have done extreme damage to Americans by dividing us to the point of a possible civil war. I never thought I'd see one creep do so much damage and have every Republican helping him. Truly breaks my heart.
I don’t get the “Touch the top of the tie” thing. How is that funny?