What will the world’s richest man do in the White House? Our correspondent analyses the political and ideological role Elon Musk could play in Donald Trump’s second term. “Small things like these” may be fiction but it is based on grim historical truths in Ireland (9:30). And Chile is suffering a spate of salmon heists (15:22).

What will the world’s richest man do in the White House? Our correspondent analyses the political and ideological role <a href="https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2024/11/17/how-to-make-elon-musks-budget-slashing-dreams-come-true?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners">Elon Musk</a> could play in Donald Trump’s second term. <a href="https://www.economist.com/culture/2024/11/01/exposing-the-horrors-of-irelands-magdalene-laundries?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners">“Small things like these”</a> may be fiction but it is based on grim historical truths in Ireland (9:30). And Chile is suffering a spate of salmon heists (15:22).

Listen on: <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/babbage-from-the-economist/id508376907">Apple Podcasts</a> | <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/0BCUrdrOb3tvfIwazeLBUH?si=nJxIwIpZSp6Yfx6ObmnfhA&dl_branch=1&nd=1">Spotify</a>

Listen to what matters most, from global politics and business to science and technology—subscribe to Economist Podcasts+

Listen to what matters most, from global politics and business to science and technology—<a href="https://subscribenow.economist.com/podcasts-plus" target="_blank">subscribe to Economist Podcasts+</a>

For more information about how to access Economist Podcasts+, please visit our FAQs page or watch our video explaining how to link your account.

For more information about how to access Economist Podcasts+, please visit our <a href="https://myaccount.economist.com/s/article/What-is-Economist-Podcasts">FAQs page</a> or watch <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gczo71bg1uY">our video </a>explaining how to link your account.

The Intelligence

How Elon Musk could change American politics

All for one: Donald Trump and his key Musketeer

This podcast transcript is generated by third-party AI. It has not been reviewed prior to publication. We make no representations or warranties in relation to the transcript, its accuracy or its completeness, and we disclaim all liability regarding its receipt, content and use. If you have any concerns about the transcript, please email us at podcasts@economist.com.

This podcast transcript is generated by third-party AI. It has not been reviewed prior to publication. We make no representations or warranties in relation to the transcript, its accuracy or its completeness, and we disclaim all liability regarding its receipt, content and use. If you have any concerns about the transcript, please email us at <a href="https://podcasts@economist.com/">podcasts@economist.com</a>.

<a href="https://myaccount.economist.com/s/article/How-we-handle-AI-generated-content">Read more about how we are using AI</a>.

Jason Palmer [00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the intelligence from The Economist. I’m Jason Palmer.

Jason Palmer [00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the intelligence from The Economist. I’m Jason Palmer.

Rosie Blau [00:00:14] And I’m Rosie Blau every weekday, we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your world.

Rosie Blau [00:00:14] And I’m Rosie Blau every weekday, we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your world.

Jason Palmer [00:00:24] One of the willfully overlooked horrors of modern Ireland were the so-called Magdalene Laundries, where women were subjected to hard labor for no pay. That dark secret is coming ever more into the light through films, books and podcasts.

Jason Palmer [00:00:24] One of the willfully overlooked horrors of modern Ireland were the so-called Magdalene Laundries, where women were subjected to hard labor for no pay. That dark secret is coming ever more into the light through films, books and podcasts.

Rosie Blau [00:00:39] And an unusual crime wave is sweeping Chile and the precious commodity being trafficked is not drugs, but fish. Our correspondent investigates a spate of salmon heists. But first.

Rosie Blau [00:00:39] And an unusual crime wave is sweeping Chile and the precious commodity being trafficked is not drugs, but fish. Our correspondent investigates a spate of salmon heists. But first.

Rosie Blau [00:01:14] In Texas this week, the space x 400 foot starship sped towards the heavens, the largest object ever to leave Earth. Watching were among two of the larger egos on Earth, SpaceX owner Elon Musk and President elect Donald Trump. The pair have been orbiting each other of late, enjoying a blossoming bromance.

Rosie Blau [00:01:14] In Texas this week, the space x 400 foot starship sped towards the heavens, the largest object ever to leave Earth. Watching were among two of the larger egos on Earth, SpaceX owner Elon Musk and President elect Donald Trump. The pair have been orbiting each other of late, enjoying a blossoming bromance.

Clip [00:01:38] We had one president who couldn’t climb a flight of stairs and another who was fist pumping after getting shot. Let me tell you, we have a new star. A star is born, Elon.

Clip [00:01:38] We had one president who couldn’t climb a flight of stairs and another who was fist pumping after getting shot. Let me tell you, we have a new star. A star is born, Elon.

Rosie Blau [00:01:53] When Trump takes office in January, Musk is set to become the first buddy and will help lead the new Department of Government Efficiency. So what will that mean for America and the world?

Rosie Blau [00:01:53] When Trump takes office in January, Musk is set to become the first buddy and will help lead the new Department of Government Efficiency. So what will that mean for America and the world?

Patrick Foulis [00:02:06] In the last few weeks, it’s become clear that the world’s richest man is in partnership with the world’s most powerful politician.

Patrick Foulis [00:02:06] In the last few weeks, it’s become clear that the world’s richest man is in partnership with the world’s most powerful politician.

Rosie Blau [00:02:16] Patrick Foulis is our foreign editor.

Rosie Blau [00:02:16] Patrick Foulis is our foreign editor.

Patrick Foulis [00:02:18] With Elon Musk featuring in the Trump entourage in big style, he was part of Trump’s victory speech and also has been hanging out in Mar a Lago. He’s now called Uncle Elon by the Trump family.

Patrick Foulis [00:02:18] With Elon Musk featuring in the Trump entourage in big style, he was part of Trump’s victory speech and also has been hanging out in Mar a Lago. He’s now called Uncle Elon by the Trump family.

Rosie Blau [00:02:32] And we’ve had businesspeople in the White House before. It’s not unprecedented. It’s not necessarily a bad idea. But the Musk Trump relationship is something quite unusual, isn’t it?

Rosie Blau [00:02:32] And we’ve had businesspeople in the White House before. It’s not unprecedented. It’s not necessarily a bad idea. But the Musk Trump relationship is something quite unusual, isn’t it?

Patrick Foulis [00:02:44] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, historically, the robber baron era in 19th century America saw politicians have some influence. And there are 20th century examples, too. JP Morgan, for example, having sway over the American government in some respects. But Musk is super unusual. The alliance with Trump is a convergence on two things. One is a contempt for government waste and and the desire to disrupt the government. And the other thing is hostility towards woke values and their language. But Musk in many ways is also quite an unusual figure. He’s not really that comparable to the robber barons of the 19th century, the Carnegies and others. He’s he’s a rather different and more unusual figure.

Patrick Foulis [00:02:44] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, historically, the robber baron era in 19th century America saw politicians have some influence. And there are 20th century examples, too. JP Morgan, for example, having sway over the American government in some respects. But Musk is super unusual. The alliance with Trump is a convergence on two things. One is a contempt for government waste and and the desire to disrupt the government. And the other thing is hostility towards woke values and their language. But Musk in many ways is also quite an unusual figure. He’s not really that comparable to the robber barons of the 19th century, the Carnegies and others. He’s he’s a rather different and more unusual figure.

Rosie Blau [00:03:24] So in what way is he so unusual?

Rosie Blau [00:03:24] So in what way is he so unusual?

Patrick Foulis [00:03:27] Well, if you think about a classic robber baron, crony capitalist, they own monopolies and try and put prices up. Musk’s business empire, Tesla, Space X and some other smaller units are completely different. They’re operating in highly competitive markets and have dramatically cut prices. So the kind of business background of musk is rather different. But the other thing that stands out is just his strident ideology, this visionary belief in technology and capitalism as a power that can solve huge problems from climate change to how mankind colonizes Mars. And that desire to disrupt and explode the status quo also applies to his view of government, which he sees a sort of stifling impediment to America’s entrepreneurial spirit.

Patrick Foulis [00:03:27] Well, if you think about a classic robber baron, crony capitalist, they own monopolies and try and put prices up. Musk’s business empire, Tesla, Space X and some other smaller units are completely different. They’re operating in highly competitive markets and have dramatically cut prices. So the kind of business background of musk is rather different. But the other thing that stands out is just his strident ideology, this visionary belief in technology and capitalism as a power that can solve huge problems from climate change to how mankind colonizes Mars. And that desire to disrupt and explode the status quo also applies to his view of government, which he sees a sort of stifling impediment to America’s entrepreneurial spirit.

Rosie Blau [00:04:16] And is he actually going to be able to make any difference?

Rosie Blau [00:04:16] And is he actually going to be able to make any difference?

Patrick Foulis [00:04:19] Well, I see his influence in two respects, all panning out in two ways. I mean, one is he’s been given sort of quasi control of this new government department to improve efficiency. Its legal status and powers are somewhat hazy, but I assume it will go on the warpath with proposed cuts to federal spending. And they’ve suggested cutting $2 trillion from the $7 trillion annual federal budget, which is enormous and would be quite something if they managed to achieve that. I think that will be a stretch. The other area is, of course, that he is a confident, at least for the moment, of Trump whispering in his ear, and I suspect his advice will encompass areas that go far beyond this idea of governance efficiency to things like the culture wars and even foreign policy. And it’s that which some people find quite alarming.

Patrick Foulis [00:04:19] Well, I see his influence in two respects, all panning out in two ways. I mean, one is he’s been given sort of quasi control of this new government department to improve efficiency. Its legal status and powers are somewhat hazy, but I assume it will go on the warpath with proposed cuts to federal spending. And they’ve suggested cutting $2 trillion from the $7 trillion annual federal budget, which is enormous and would be quite something if they managed to achieve that. I think that will be a stretch. The other area is, of course, that he is a confident, at least for the moment, of Trump whispering in his ear, and I suspect his advice will encompass areas that go far beyond this idea of governance efficiency to things like the culture wars and even foreign policy. And it’s that which some people find quite alarming.

Rosie Blau [00:05:05] So, as you say, alarm is the big word of the day. What are the actual dangers likely to be?

Rosie Blau [00:05:05] So, as you say, alarm is the big word of the day. What are the actual dangers likely to be?

Patrick Foulis [00:05:11] Well, there’s one version of this which just doesn’t really make much sense, and that’s the idea. Elon Musk controls the whole economy and can hold America to ransom and precisely because of the unusual nature of his business interests. That’s not right. I mean, his empire is not as big as your standard oil, say, or US steel in the 19th century. But B, most of these businesses are in competitive markets. So Tesla didn’t exist tomorrow. It would not mean the end of the EV industry globally or in America. So it’s hard for him to have a kind of chokehold on the economy, although there is an exception to that, which is the business of launching rockets for defense purposes, where arguably he does have a bit of a stranglehold on that kind of Nigeria. But I see the risks as being a bit different from that idea that he has total control over the economy.

Patrick Foulis [00:05:11] Well, there’s one version of this which just doesn’t really make much sense, and that’s the idea. Elon Musk controls the whole economy and can hold America to ransom and precisely because of the unusual nature of his business interests. That’s not right. I mean, his empire is not as big as your standard oil, say, or US steel in the 19th century. But B, most of these businesses are in competitive markets. So Tesla didn’t exist tomorrow. It would not mean the end of the EV industry globally or in America. So it’s hard for him to have a kind of chokehold on the economy, although there is an exception to that, which is the business of launching rockets for defense purposes, where arguably he does have a bit of a stranglehold on that kind of Nigeria. But I see the risks as being a bit different from that idea that he has total control over the economy.

Rosie Blau [00:06:00] So what are the actual risks then?

Rosie Blau [00:06:00] So what are the actual risks then?

Patrick Foulis [00:06:02] Well, one is crony capitalism, where he is going to be in a position to influence regulation in a number of areas where his own personal interest is enormous. A.I. autonomous vehicles, the list goes on. And the stock market reaction to Musk’s ascension to Team Trump has been to massively ramp up the value of his businesses, suggesting investors think he’ll be able to extract a rent effectively from crony capitalism. That’s one risk. The other risk for America, I think, is that his remit expands beyond that core interest. And because he is strongly conflicted on China, for example, where Tesla has a large business in China, it’s a disturbing prospect to think of him giving advice to the government on China policy because he has an enormous vested interest in other areas too. Elon Musk’s views have evolved and we’ve done an analysis of his Twitter feed over the last few years, which shows a growing obsession with culture wars and to some degree conspiratorial subjects. So his advice on matters beyond cost cutting may not be entirely so. Very.

Patrick Foulis [00:06:02] Well, one is crony capitalism, where he is going to be in a position to influence regulation in a number of areas where his own personal interest is enormous. A.I. autonomous vehicles, the list goes on. And the stock market reaction to Musk’s ascension to Team Trump has been to massively ramp up the value of his businesses, suggesting investors think he’ll be able to extract a rent effectively from crony capitalism. That’s one risk. The other risk for America, I think, is that his remit expands beyond that core interest. And because he is strongly conflicted on China, for example, where Tesla has a large business in China, it’s a disturbing prospect to think of him giving advice to the government on China policy because he has an enormous vested interest in other areas too. Elon Musk’s views have evolved and we’ve done an analysis of his Twitter feed over the last few years, which shows a growing obsession with culture wars and to some degree conspiratorial subjects. So his advice on matters beyond cost cutting may not be entirely so. Very.

Rosie Blau [00:07:07] It’s hard to think of two personalities more divisive, charismatic, cultish almost than Musk and Trump. How are they actually going to get on?

Rosie Blau [00:07:07] It’s hard to think of two personalities more divisive, charismatic, cultish almost than Musk and Trump. How are they actually going to get on?

Patrick Foulis [00:07:18] Well, both are notorious for being volatile. They’re also notorious for firing people all the time. So just as in the Trump administration, the first time around, there was this incredible turnover of. Key Cabinet advisory appointees. So in Moscow, there’s an incredible turnover of executives who kind of join and then crash and burn. So by far and away, I think the most likely outcome is that they fall out really quite quickly. And this partnership doesn’t last. But the interesting thing is, I think even if Moscow does turn out to be a sort of transitory political phenomena, the idea of tycoons playing a more active role in American politics, I think might be here to stay. And that’s because this popular revolt against institutions makes it easier for outsiders to participate at the highest levels of government. And because protectionism, increasing state intervention in the economy means the incentives for both politicians and businesspeople to collaborate have got sky high.

Patrick Foulis [00:07:18] Well, both are notorious for being volatile. They’re also notorious for firing people all the time. So just as in the Trump administration, the first time around, there was this incredible turnover of. Key Cabinet advisory appointees. So in Moscow, there’s an incredible turnover of executives who kind of join and then crash and burn. So by far and away, I think the most likely outcome is that they fall out really quite quickly. And this partnership doesn’t last. But the interesting thing is, I think even if Moscow does turn out to be a sort of transitory political phenomena, the idea of tycoons playing a more active role in American politics, I think might be here to stay. And that’s because this popular revolt against institutions makes it easier for outsiders to participate at the highest levels of government. And because protectionism, increasing state intervention in the economy means the incentives for both politicians and businesspeople to collaborate have got sky high.

Rosie Blau [00:08:23] So we’ve got a greater role for tycoons in general and a greater role, apparently for personality in general. Where does that leave America’s institutions?

Rosie Blau [00:08:23] So we’ve got a greater role for tycoons in general and a greater role, apparently for personality in general. Where does that leave America’s institutions?

Patrick Foulis [00:08:33] Well, some of the comparisons about America being made seem to be ridiculous. So, for example, America is becoming a fascist state, or even that America now resembles its 19th century version of populism and robber baron capitalism. And in fact, the closest comparison is emerging markets around the world, where you have weaker institutions and more powerful business people. And sometimes this problem of oligarchy and tycoon participation and anyone he knows, Russia, India and possibly you could argue China will be familiar with the phenomena we’ve just been discussing.

Patrick Foulis [00:08:33] Well, some of the comparisons about America being made seem to be ridiculous. So, for example, America is becoming a fascist state, or even that America now resembles its 19th century version of populism and robber baron capitalism. And in fact, the closest comparison is emerging markets around the world, where you have weaker institutions and more powerful business people. And sometimes this problem of oligarchy and tycoon participation and anyone he knows, Russia, India and possibly you could argue China will be familiar with the phenomena we’ve just been discussing.

Rosie Blau [00:09:10] Patrick, thank you so much. Great to talk to you.

Rosie Blau [00:09:10] Patrick, thank you so much. Great to talk to you.

Patrick Foulis [00:09:12] Great to be here.

Patrick Foulis [00:09:12] Great to be here.

Clip [00:09:30] I don’t. People say, well, maybe.

Clip [00:09:30] I don’t. People say, well, maybe.

Jason Palmer [00:09:41] A young woman desperately resists as her mother forces her through the doors of a convent. Inside the young woman’s faces are pictures of misery as they scrub floors or operate laundry machines. The films, Small things like these released in America and Britain this month is adapted from Claire Keegan’s prizewinning novella of the same name. Can’t get out of this life. There are things you have to. Set in New Ross, Ireland in 1985. It’s a fictional tale with the unsettling tension of a horror film that stars Oscar winner Killian Murphy. The film, though, is based on reality. These Magdalene laundries, in which fallen women were forced to work without pay operated until the 1990s. Small things like these is part of a wave of stories reckoning with this grim history.

Jason Palmer [00:09:41] A young woman desperately resists as her mother forces her through the doors of a convent. Inside the young woman’s faces are pictures of misery as they scrub floors or operate laundry machines. The films, Small things like these released in America and Britain this month is adapted from Claire Keegan’s prizewinning novella of the same name. Can’t get out of this life. There are things you have to. Set in New Ross, Ireland in 1985. It’s a fictional tale with the unsettling tension of a horror film that stars Oscar winner Killian Murphy. The film, though, is based on reality. These Magdalene laundries, in which fallen women were forced to work without pay operated until the 1990s. Small things like these is part of a wave of stories reckoning with this grim history.

Rachel Lloyd [00:10:33] Madeline Laundries date back to the 18th century.

Rachel Lloyd [00:10:33] Madeline Laundries date back to the 18th century.

Jason Palmer [00:10:37] Rachel Lloyd is our deputy culture editor.

Jason Palmer [00:10:37] Rachel Lloyd is our deputy culture editor.

Rachel Lloyd [00:10:39] They were set up originally by both the Catholic patrons and originally the idea was that they would be rehabilitative. They would take in so-called fallen women and help them rebuild their lives by teach them a skill. But later they became more punitive, especially with the formation of the Irish Free State. Unmarried women were seen as a moral problem, and the state outsourced that problem to the Catholic Church to manage women. That was that. There could be that that for a variety of reasons. Typically it was because they had had sex outside of marriage or committed some sort of moral offense. But it could be also because they were poor. It could be because they’d committed a petty crime. And most tragically, it could be because they’d come forward with allegations of abuse, incest or rape.

Rachel Lloyd [00:10:39] They were set up originally by both the Catholic patrons and originally the idea was that they would be rehabilitative. They would take in so-called fallen women and help them rebuild their lives by teach them a skill. But later they became more punitive, especially with the formation of the Irish Free State. Unmarried women were seen as a moral problem, and the state outsourced that problem to the Catholic Church to manage women. That was that. There could be that that for a variety of reasons. Typically it was because they had had sex outside of marriage or committed some sort of moral offense. But it could be also because they were poor. It could be because they’d committed a petty crime. And most tragically, it could be because they’d come forward with allegations of abuse, incest or rape.

Jason Palmer [00:11:23] And it seems clear that life in these laundries was not nice.

Jason Palmer [00:11:23] And it seems clear that life in these laundries was not nice.

Rachel Lloyd [00:11:27] Life inside was difficult. Women would have to work for 6 or 7 days a week. They would work very long hours and the work itself would be backbreaking operating industrial machines. Nuns would punish anyone severely who didn’t work hard enough or who resisted the sense I could belong. A study of an institution called Donnybrook found that the average stay was over 20 years. Many women as well were affected by this. There were at least 10,000 women who are confined in one of these institutions between 1922 and 1996. The numbers were even higher for the mother and baby homes, which were a similar but different institution.

Rachel Lloyd [00:11:27] Life inside was difficult. Women would have to work for 6 or 7 days a week. They would work very long hours and the work itself would be backbreaking operating industrial machines. Nuns would punish anyone severely who didn’t work hard enough or who resisted the sense I could belong. A study of an institution called Donnybrook found that the average stay was over 20 years. Many women as well were affected by this. There were at least 10,000 women who are confined in one of these institutions between 1922 and 1996. The numbers were even higher for the mother and baby homes, which were a similar but different institution.

Jason Palmer [00:12:03] Tell me about those.

Jason Palmer [00:12:03] Tell me about those.

Rachel Lloyd [00:12:05] So they were specifically for unwed pregnant women. Women would go there to live for their children. The children would be taken off them typically and privately adopted. And then the women would again work either in the home or be transferred to a laundry. The government commission in 2021 found that at least 56,000 women were contained in one of 18 mother and baby homes and a suspected 25,000 further women were in other homes that didn’t come under the commission’s purview. There were Magdalene Laundries in Britain, in Europe, America and Australia. But what’s specific to Ireland is both the extent and the longevity of these institutions. So the last one closed in 1996, which was decades after they’d closed in many other countries.

Rachel Lloyd [00:12:05] So they were specifically for unwed pregnant women. Women would go there to live for their children. The children would be taken off them typically and privately adopted. And then the women would again work either in the home or be transferred to a laundry. The government commission in 2021 found that at least 56,000 women were contained in one of 18 mother and baby homes and a suspected 25,000 further women were in other homes that didn’t come under the commission’s purview. There were Magdalene Laundries in Britain, in Europe, America and Australia. But what’s specific to Ireland is both the extent and the longevity of these institutions. So the last one closed in 1996, which was decades after they’d closed in many other countries.

Jason Palmer [00:12:49] And the suggestion here is that this is kind of coming out of the shadows. Now, I suppose I wonder why it was in the shadows in the first place. Why was this not more widely known about?

Jason Palmer [00:12:49] And the suggestion here is that this is kind of coming out of the shadows. Now, I suppose I wonder why it was in the shadows in the first place. Why was this not more widely known about?

Rachel Lloyd [00:12:58] There was a kind of willful ignorance surrounding the subject. The practice of Muslim laundries was something of an open secret. But the Catholic Church was a powerful force in society, and it wasn’t in lots of people’s interests to talk about it. But yes, now there is a wave of popular culture that is examining my journal entries. So, for instance, this year, small things like these. But we’ve also had Woman in the Wall, a TV drama which aired in Britain last year and in America at the beginning of this year.

Rachel Lloyd [00:12:58] There was a kind of willful ignorance surrounding the subject. The practice of Muslim laundries was something of an open secret. But the Catholic Church was a powerful force in society, and it wasn’t in lots of people’s interests to talk about it. But yes, now there is a wave of popular culture that is examining my journal entries. So, for instance, this year, small things like these. But we’ve also had Woman in the Wall, a TV drama which aired in Britain last year and in America at the beginning of this year.

Clip [00:13:24] But the road has to be earned.

Clip [00:13:24] But the road has to be earned.

Rachel Lloyd [00:13:26] You should be better off without me. The drama is a gothic thriller which focuses on Lorna, played by Ruth Wilson, as she tries to track down the child that was taken from her 30 years earlier. There’s also been a podcast called the Madeleine’s and I, which looks at the experiences of survivors. There was also the film Philomena in 2013 starring Judi Dench, which introduced the topic to a wider audience. And Katherine O’Donnell, who I spoke to, who is a professor at University College Dublin, says that films such as more things like these may help shift the needle in terms of public awareness of this.

Rachel Lloyd [00:13:26] You should be better off without me. The drama is a gothic thriller which focuses on Lorna, played by Ruth Wilson, as she tries to track down the child that was taken from her 30 years earlier. There’s also been a podcast called the Madeleine’s and I, which looks at the experiences of survivors. There was also the film Philomena in 2013 starring Judi Dench, which introduced the topic to a wider audience. And Katherine O’Donnell, who I spoke to, who is a professor at University College Dublin, says that films such as more things like these may help shift the needle in terms of public awareness of this.

Katherine O’Donnell [00:13:59] Next year, there will be students I know who will have heard of Imagine and Laundry because they know of the movie in five, six years time. Unless things change, they won’t know again.

Katherine O’Donnell [00:13:59] Next year, there will be students I know who will have heard of Imagine and Laundry because they know of the movie in five, six years time. Unless things change, they won’t know again.

Jason Palmer [00:14:10] So now that things are more out in the open, what’s going on in terms of reckoning with that past?

Jason Palmer [00:14:10] So now that things are more out in the open, what’s going on in terms of reckoning with that past?

Rachel Lloyd [00:14:16] Katherine has told me that to keep the momentum going, really the thing that needs to happen is that it needs to be taught in schools. Education needs to bring it consistently to younger generations. The issue with that is that it seems pretty unlikely in the Catholic Church still controls more than 90% of primary schools in Ireland and more than 50% of secondary schools. But the Irish government is doing more. On November 5th, new legislation was passed which made it an offense to destroy any records pertaining to the homes or laundries. And so that’s really any records held by the church. And there are plans for an official remembrance center in Dublin on the site of the last laundry to close, which closed in 1996. That will house an archive, a museum and remembrance sites. So there is a sense that this dark history is finally being brought into the light.

Rachel Lloyd [00:14:16] Katherine has told me that to keep the momentum going, really the thing that needs to happen is that it needs to be taught in schools. Education needs to bring it consistently to younger generations. The issue with that is that it seems pretty unlikely in the Catholic Church still controls more than 90% of primary schools in Ireland and more than 50% of secondary schools. But the Irish government is doing more. On November 5th, new legislation was passed which made it an offense to destroy any records pertaining to the homes or laundries. And so that’s really any records held by the church. And there are plans for an official remembrance center in Dublin on the site of the last laundry to close, which closed in 1996. That will house an archive, a museum and remembrance sites. So there is a sense that this dark history is finally being brought into the light.

Jason Palmer [00:15:06] Rachael, thanks very much for joining us.

Jason Palmer [00:15:06] Rachael, thanks very much for joining us.

Rachel Lloyd [00:15:08] Thank you for having me.

Rachel Lloyd [00:15:08] Thank you for having me.

Fraser McIlwraith [00:15:26] A third of the world’s salmon comes from Chile.

Fraser McIlwraith [00:15:26] A third of the world’s salmon comes from Chile.

Rosie Blau [00:15:30] Fraser McKelvey is our salmon correspondent.

Rosie Blau [00:15:30] Fraser McKelvey is our salmon correspondent.

Fraser McIlwraith [00:15:33] The industry generated nearly $6 trillion last year, which is around $6 billion. But the industry has been battered by a crime wave. Chile salmon has become a victim of its own success, and in recent years people have actually been stealing the fish. Just two robberies were reported in 2018, but from 2019 to 2023, there were 158. Gangs usually target lorries transporting fish across the country. Drivers making long journeys on isolated highways, often traveling solo, can be easy targets for gangs, but gangs have also targeted cold storage facilities.

Fraser McIlwraith [00:15:33] The industry generated nearly $6 trillion last year, which is around $6 billion. But the industry has been battered by a crime wave. Chile salmon has become a victim of its own success, and in recent years people have actually been stealing the fish. Just two robberies were reported in 2018, but from 2019 to 2023, there were 158. Gangs usually target lorries transporting fish across the country. Drivers making long journeys on isolated highways, often traveling solo, can be easy targets for gangs, but gangs have also targeted cold storage facilities.

Clip [00:16:09] In any market operation, Santos Salamone that activates the legal limit. Rosso Vito, San Antonio also in Italy, Blue Angels.

Clip [00:16:09] In any market operation, Santos Salamone that activates the legal limit. Rosso Vito, San Antonio also in Italy, Blue Angels.

Fraser McIlwraith [00:16:18] Earlier this year, as part of Operation Holy Salmon, police arrested 11 men in connection with an armed robbery at a warehouse in San Antonio, a port city. More than $650,000 worth of salmon were stolen after a gang of men stormed the warehouse. Lots of other incidents slip through the net and go unreported.

Fraser McIlwraith [00:16:18] Earlier this year, as part of Operation Holy Salmon, police arrested 11 men in connection with an armed robbery at a warehouse in San Antonio, a port city. More than $650,000 worth of salmon were stolen after a gang of men stormed the warehouse. Lots of other incidents slip through the net and go unreported.

Rosie Blau [00:16:40] So, Fraser, what’s going on here? Why is there been this sudden surge in salmon heists?

Rosie Blau [00:16:40] So, Fraser, what’s going on here? Why is there been this sudden surge in salmon heists?

Fraser McIlwraith [00:16:47] Partly it’s because stealing a lorry load of salmon can be really, really lucrative. Lorries carry about $200,000 worth of fish, so it’s a valuable commodity which you could easily transports if you were able to hijack a truck. But there are also other factors which have meant that the rise in crime has happened more recently. So domestic demand has risen pretty sharply over the past ten years. Between 2013 and 2020, there was an almost 20% increase in domestic consumption of salmon in Chile. So gangs are able to make more money than before by selling salmon in local markets. At the same time, gangs have been adapting. So a big problem in some of the southern regions and Chile for many years has been wood theft. Very well organized. Gangs, often quite heavily armed, have hijacked lorries delivering timber. Something that’s happened in recent years as the government’s tried to crack down on them much more heavily. So the timber mafias, as they’re known in Chile, have probably been switching to salmon instead.

Fraser McIlwraith [00:16:47] Partly it’s because stealing a lorry load of salmon can be really, really lucrative. Lorries carry about $200,000 worth of fish, so it’s a valuable commodity which you could easily transports if you were able to hijack a truck. But there are also other factors which have meant that the rise in crime has happened more recently. So domestic demand has risen pretty sharply over the past ten years. Between 2013 and 2020, there was an almost 20% increase in domestic consumption of salmon in Chile. So gangs are able to make more money than before by selling salmon in local markets. At the same time, gangs have been adapting. So a big problem in some of the southern regions and Chile for many years has been wood theft. Very well organized. Gangs, often quite heavily armed, have hijacked lorries delivering timber. Something that’s happened in recent years as the government’s tried to crack down on them much more heavily. So the timber mafias, as they’re known in Chile, have probably been switching to salmon instead.

Rosie Blau [00:17:49] Chile isn’t some where I traditionally associate with salmon.

Rosie Blau [00:17:49] Chile isn’t some where I traditionally associate with salmon.

Fraser McIlwraith [00:17:54] Yeah, so salmon farming is an unusual thing to become a big industry in Chile. So the fish that are farmed are the kinds of salmon that are popular around the world. So it’s Atlantic salmon. It’s not indigenous to Chile, but something that the Pinochet government did during the 1980s was they implemented a kind of the fairly top down policy of diversifying the country’s economy. They wanted to diversify away from copper, which was effectively the country’s only big export. That made the country’s economy very vulnerable to swings in the copper price. They developed the salmon farming industry from the ground up. And in the space of about 15 or 20 years, they became one of the world’s biggest salmon exporters.

Fraser McIlwraith [00:17:54] Yeah, so salmon farming is an unusual thing to become a big industry in Chile. So the fish that are farmed are the kinds of salmon that are popular around the world. So it’s Atlantic salmon. It’s not indigenous to Chile, but something that the Pinochet government did during the 1980s was they implemented a kind of the fairly top down policy of diversifying the country’s economy. They wanted to diversify away from copper, which was effectively the country’s only big export. That made the country’s economy very vulnerable to swings in the copper price. They developed the salmon farming industry from the ground up. And in the space of about 15 or 20 years, they became one of the world’s biggest salmon exporters.

Rosie Blau [00:18:36] Okay, so salmon are disappearing from lorries. What are the other effects of this crime wave on Chile?

Rosie Blau [00:18:36] Okay, so salmon are disappearing from lorries. What are the other effects of this crime wave on Chile?

Fraser McIlwraith [00:18:42] Firms are feeling quite considerable strain from this. I spoke to the boss of a salmon farming firm, and he said that he and other companies who’ve come through their accounts think that it’s weighing on gross operating profits by about 1%, which is quite a lot for a crime wave. Lots and lots of things are increasing costs. Firms are having to spend a lot more money on tracking equipment for security for drivers, some of whom are wearing bulletproof vests and helmets because they’re worried about their lorries getting hijacked. Drivers are avoiding the shortest routes, organizing themselves so they can travel in convoys. Insurance costs have risen. So there’s quite a big economic cost that the industry is having to shoulder. It’s also a problem just for Chileans who are going to fish markets and don’t know what they’re getting themselves in for when they buy salmon. A lot of the time the salmon gangs steal a consignment of salmon and process it themselves. They’ll be storing it in unsatisfactory conditions. It’s a genuine risk to public health.

Fraser McIlwraith [00:18:42] Firms are feeling quite considerable strain from this. I spoke to the boss of a salmon farming firm, and he said that he and other companies who’ve come through their accounts think that it’s weighing on gross operating profits by about 1%, which is quite a lot for a crime wave. Lots and lots of things are increasing costs. Firms are having to spend a lot more money on tracking equipment for security for drivers, some of whom are wearing bulletproof vests and helmets because they’re worried about their lorries getting hijacked. Drivers are avoiding the shortest routes, organizing themselves so they can travel in convoys. Insurance costs have risen. So there’s quite a big economic cost that the industry is having to shoulder. It’s also a problem just for Chileans who are going to fish markets and don’t know what they’re getting themselves in for when they buy salmon. A lot of the time the salmon gangs steal a consignment of salmon and process it themselves. They’ll be storing it in unsatisfactory conditions. It’s a genuine risk to public health.

Rosie Blau [00:19:47] So what you’re saying is the wood mafia may not know how to make sure that salmon is kept properly. You mentioned Operation Holey Salmon as being quite successful. What else can be done to stop these salmon heists?

Rosie Blau [00:19:47] So what you’re saying is the wood mafia may not know how to make sure that salmon is kept properly. You mentioned Operation Holey Salmon as being quite successful. What else can be done to stop these salmon heists?

Fraser McIlwraith [00:20:02] Some of the measures are things like extra tracking devices, extra security. That’s started to make a difference. And so while there were 24 heists recorded in 2023, there have only been 12 recorded so far this year. So there’s gradually been some progress. There are also legislative measures which some members of the government are working on. There’s been a bill proposed in Chile’s lower house of Congress which would make salmon robbery a specific crime, which would have harsh penalties and more resources devoted to tackling it. That’s based on a piece of legislation which was used to target timber mafias a few years ago. So given the success of the government in cracking down on those gangs, there’s quite a lot of optimism that this will have a similar effect on salmon mafias. There is a lesson here, which is about just how adaptable criminal gangs can be. If you crack down on crime in one area, you’re very likely to see it crop up in another. And gangs who are good at stealing one thing might well prove very good at stealing another.

Fraser McIlwraith [00:20:02] Some of the measures are things like extra tracking devices, extra security. That’s started to make a difference. And so while there were 24 heists recorded in 2023, there have only been 12 recorded so far this year. So there’s gradually been some progress. There are also legislative measures which some members of the government are working on. There’s been a bill proposed in Chile’s lower house of Congress which would make salmon robbery a specific crime, which would have harsh penalties and more resources devoted to tackling it. That’s based on a piece of legislation which was used to target timber mafias a few years ago. So given the success of the government in cracking down on those gangs, there’s quite a lot of optimism that this will have a similar effect on salmon mafias. There is a lesson here, which is about just how adaptable criminal gangs can be. If you crack down on crime in one area, you’re very likely to see it crop up in another. And gangs who are good at stealing one thing might well prove very good at stealing another.

Rosie Blau [00:21:05] Fraser fascinating stuff. Thank you so much.

Rosie Blau [00:21:05] Fraser fascinating stuff. Thank you so much.

Fraser McIlwraith [00:21:08] Thank you.

Rosie Blau [00:21:08] Come wait for our next salmon story. Subscribing to Economist podcast plus helps make our journalism possible. Thank you. Search Economist Podcast Plus for a free trial. And that’s it for this episode of the Intelligence. Let us know what you think of the show and you can get in touch at podcasts@economist.com. We’ll see you back here tomorrow.

Rosie Blau [00:21:08] Come wait for our next salmon story. Subscribing to Economist podcast plus helps make our journalism possible. Thank you. Search Economist Podcast Plus for a free trial. And that’s it for this episode of the Intelligence. Let us know what you think of the show and you can get in touch at podcasts@economist.com. We’ll see you back here tomorrow.

Podcasts

Drum Tower

Inside China’s disciplinary centres for “deviant” youth

The Intelligence 

Trump ducks a legal storm as federal cases dropped

The Adani scandal is another setback for Narendra Modi

The Weekend Intelligence

Ibiza: When the party’s over

People walk along Platja d'en Bossa with boards advertising for a night at Pacha nightclub, Ibiza.

Why British MPs should back assisted dying

Campaigners in Parliament Square in favour of the proposed bill to legalise assisted dying

Money Talks

Why are Asia’s middle classes stagnating?

Aerial view of Residence Bel-Air, Cyberport, Hong Kong at dusk with car lights and residential lights glowing.

Editorials, columns, guest opinions and your letters, all in one place

Sign up to our Opinion newsletter

Opinion

A behind-the-scenes look at how we chose and designed this week’s cover

How we chose this week’s cover image

Cover Story

Catch up quickly on the global stories that matter

Sign up to enjoy a mind-expanding mix of stories, delivered six days a week

Catch up quickly on the stories that matter

The World in Brief

A sharp round-up of the most important US political news

Sign up for updates from our correspondents and data journalists, poll tracker and election-forecast model as the 2024 race unfolds

The US in brief

Highlights from the latest weekly issue, introduced by our editor

The Economist this week

The very best of our journalism, handpicked for you each weekday

A daily newsletter with the best of our journalism

Handpicked stories, in your inbox

The Economist today

Your essential guide to global business and technology

From supply chains to semiconductors, The Bottom Line newsletter has you covered

Need to track the megatrends shaping business and technology?

The Bottom Line

Expert analysis of the biggest stories in economics and markets

Exclusive insight from our correspondents in America

Exclusive insight and reading recommendations from our correspondents in America

Checks and Balance

Analysing the challenges facing Britain and what needs to be done to overcome them

Stay informed with our weekly Britain newsletter

Blighty

The best of The Economist’s defence coverage, in one place

The War Room

Understand a vast and complicated country that will increasingly shape the future

Stay informed with our weekly India newsletter

Essential India

Understand what the world makes of China—and what China makes of the world

Stay informed with our weekly China newsletter

Inside Europe, from the front lines in Ukraine to the corridors of power in Brussels

Stay informed with our weekly Europe newsletter

Café Europa

A weekly fix of our mind-expanding science coverage

Curious about the world? Enjoy a weekly fix of our mind-expanding science coverage

Simply Science

A weekly conversation about culture. Because culture is a serious business

Exploring trends and connections across entertainment, the arts and politics

Broaden your perspective with our weekly culture newsletter

Plot Twist

Weekly insights into a continent that is reshaping our world

Our weekly newsletter will help you make sense of the sweeping changes taking place across Africa

Exclusive insights into a continent that is reshaping our world

Analysing Africa

Get to grips with a region where capital, climate and geopolitics collide

Go deeper with our Middle East newsletter. Every week our correspondents delve into the political, social and economic stories of a region that is rarely out of the news.

How Elon Musk could change American politics

Also on the daily podcast: Ireland’s historic horrors on screen and Chilean salmon heists

Transcript

Discover more