Sailing such a boat with the board up may be dangerous. especially if so much weight is needed for righting moment. A jibe or broach can result in capsize or sinking
Thanks for the comment. I found the supplied link interesting reading. Certainly raising the ballast would alter many characteristics such as righting moment but the dangers of a capsize or sinking in 2 to 3 feet of water are minimal. There are large bodies of water here that are extremely shallow but can be safely sailed with the board either partially or fully raised. However, I get your point and agree that one needs to be aware of the ramifications of the search for increased speed when off the wind, which can be finicky.
My father told a story of crewing in such a boat with a lifting keel. One day it broached and sank, luckily, he was not in the boat at that time. I also recently had a conversation with a man who sailed a fast trimaran with daggerboards. I mentioned to him that there are wonderful areas to sail in shallow water where i live (florida bay) He said he would not do so because the boat sails poorly in shallow water and the damage to the boat if a daggerboard hits a rock or reef can be catastrophic. Centerboards and leeboards are for shallow water.
Apples and oranges here. A sharpie is meant to be sailed in skinny water. The idea of having a heavily weighted board necessary to keep her on her feet in anything more than moderate conditions and having inappropriate lifting gear is either a design issue or an owner issue. Did the owner have her built as designed? "I only sail in deep water" is not a justification for creating a problem.
I wonder whether the owner had the design modified to justify more sail area than the original concept. The article states that the boat is gaff rigged. Were the gaffs tall or short curved gaffs in the Dutch style? [I first saw the Dutch gaffs during OpSail '86.]
Had the designer done any similar shallow water boats previously? Bear in mind that many, if not most, shallow water boats in that part of the North Sea are set up with leeboards, which come with their own set of design criteria.
It appears that the concept is a bastardization of two sets of design criteria from opposite sides of the ocean.
This boat was actually featured in the WoodenBoat July/August 2009 issue. The story was a translation from a Dutch Magazine article so no one on this side of the pond had sailed her. She was a design “modification” of Munroe’s Egret and supposedly built to fulfill European Community standards but your thoughtful comments make me wonder if her attributes were overstated. Thanks for the feedback.
Sorry for your loss. You did the right thing. It would be interesting if you could get a read from the naval architect on the issue but he most likely would be reluctant to admit deficiencies in the design, especially since that could well create liability issues for him. "Better to have loved and lost..." etc. Good luck with your next vessel!
So sorry you went through all this effort only to be stymied by a recalcitrant daggerboard. The owner no doubt was long accustomed to wrestling the thing up and down and didn’t dwell on it. Only a hands on visit would bring this to your attention. Sounds like you did all the right things Jonathan.
This area is freshwater so there is only a bit of slime evident. There is no significant growth present such as barnacles or weed. Since the builder remarked that lifting the ballasted board had been an issue from the outset, I didn’t go there but perhaps I should have.
Very sorry for your lost investment in time and travel, but glad you called their bluff and got your deposit back. 600 pounds is quite a lift, and if it wasn't smooth, it wasn't safe. When the Netherlands has been building shallow-draft leeboard craft for centuries, it's surprising that this one would require such heavy ballast to maintain stability under sail.
I'm thinking if push came to shove, the builder pretty much ended the owners argument on the contract...
The good news is, the "searching/looking" is back on! Heck that is half the fun and all the passion of it anyway.
Hope you both enjoyed the rest of your time and maybe answered the rest of the question - is there enough over there, sailing wise, to actually make it worth the journey/expense if you found another craft there?
Thank you Jonathan for your thorough recounting of the story - great food for thought.
Oh what a shame - such a pretty boat. Never mind. There are plenty more fish in the sea. Er - boats on the sea. That one was pretty, but pretty is as pretty does, right? I'm glad you got your money back!
Very informative. Shame that you spend so much money and time looking for a vessel that was not to be your "vessel"
In my case, a different scenario but, in a sense, the same result : a difficult and unplanned consequence. After years of sailing in light and unprotected (from the elements) in dighies like an early version of the 420, a Wayfarer, a Mistral 16, etc it seemed to me I would welcome the convenience of a bunk and a very basic cooking setup. Who knows, sleeping on board would be nice !
Low and behold, after a Siren 17 (too small), I found a West Wight Potter 19 in good condition at a price i could afford.
Unpleasant consequence : the daggerboard/lifting keel arrangement intrudes in a significant way in the cabin AND the effort required to lift this daggerboard is very significant ( for a person of my age 65+). I did replace the lifting cable and hand crank recently - no improvement.
I need to pay attention to the tides with the mooring I use, the keel/daggerboard must be raised.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the Potter but perhaps I should have been more aware of the compromise I would have to ''live'' with.
Very much enjoy this vessel but the daggerboard is a real ''pain"
Sailing such a boat with the board up may be dangerous. especially if so much weight is needed for righting moment. A jibe or broach can result in capsize or sinking
https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/threads/s2-7-9-daggerboard-limitations.1628/
Thanks for the comment. I found the supplied link interesting reading. Certainly raising the ballast would alter many characteristics such as righting moment but the dangers of a capsize or sinking in 2 to 3 feet of water are minimal. There are large bodies of water here that are extremely shallow but can be safely sailed with the board either partially or fully raised. However, I get your point and agree that one needs to be aware of the ramifications of the search for increased speed when off the wind, which can be finicky.
My father told a story of crewing in such a boat with a lifting keel. One day it broached and sank, luckily, he was not in the boat at that time. I also recently had a conversation with a man who sailed a fast trimaran with daggerboards. I mentioned to him that there are wonderful areas to sail in shallow water where i live (florida bay) He said he would not do so because the boat sails poorly in shallow water and the damage to the boat if a daggerboard hits a rock or reef can be catastrophic. Centerboards and leeboards are for shallow water.
Apples and oranges here. A sharpie is meant to be sailed in skinny water. The idea of having a heavily weighted board necessary to keep her on her feet in anything more than moderate conditions and having inappropriate lifting gear is either a design issue or an owner issue. Did the owner have her built as designed? "I only sail in deep water" is not a justification for creating a problem.
I wonder whether the owner had the design modified to justify more sail area than the original concept. The article states that the boat is gaff rigged. Were the gaffs tall or short curved gaffs in the Dutch style? [I first saw the Dutch gaffs during OpSail '86.]
Had the designer done any similar shallow water boats previously? Bear in mind that many, if not most, shallow water boats in that part of the North Sea are set up with leeboards, which come with their own set of design criteria.
It appears that the concept is a bastardization of two sets of design criteria from opposite sides of the ocean.
By sticking to your guns, you dodged a bullet.
This boat was actually featured in the WoodenBoat July/August 2009 issue. The story was a translation from a Dutch Magazine article so no one on this side of the pond had sailed her. She was a design “modification” of Munroe’s Egret and supposedly built to fulfill European Community standards but your thoughtful comments make me wonder if her attributes were overstated. Thanks for the feedback.
Sorry for your loss. You did the right thing. It would be interesting if you could get a read from the naval architect on the issue but he most likely would be reluctant to admit deficiencies in the design, especially since that could well create liability issues for him. "Better to have loved and lost..." etc. Good luck with your next vessel!
So sorry you went through all this effort only to be stymied by a recalcitrant daggerboard. The owner no doubt was long accustomed to wrestling the thing up and down and didn’t dwell on it. Only a hands on visit would bring this to your attention. Sounds like you did all the right things Jonathan.
a haulout would have shown if the growth was the issue - I don’t believe it was.
This area is freshwater so there is only a bit of slime evident. There is no significant growth present such as barnacles or weed. Since the builder remarked that lifting the ballasted board had been an issue from the outset, I didn’t go there but perhaps I should have.
Very sorry for your lost investment in time and travel, but glad you called their bluff and got your deposit back. 600 pounds is quite a lift, and if it wasn't smooth, it wasn't safe. When the Netherlands has been building shallow-draft leeboard craft for centuries, it's surprising that this one would require such heavy ballast to maintain stability under sail.
What a shame! Sorry it didn't work out.
I'm thinking if push came to shove, the builder pretty much ended the owners argument on the contract...
The good news is, the "searching/looking" is back on! Heck that is half the fun and all the passion of it anyway.
Hope you both enjoyed the rest of your time and maybe answered the rest of the question - is there enough over there, sailing wise, to actually make it worth the journey/expense if you found another craft there?
Thank you Jonathan for your thorough recounting of the story - great food for thought.
Oh what a shame - such a pretty boat. Never mind. There are plenty more fish in the sea. Er - boats on the sea. That one was pretty, but pretty is as pretty does, right? I'm glad you got your money back!
Such a disappointment!
There are times a dream is worth pursuing even if there is risk of disappointment. I'm sorry it didn't work out.
Very informative. Shame that you spend so much money and time looking for a vessel that was not to be your "vessel"
In my case, a different scenario but, in a sense, the same result : a difficult and unplanned consequence. After years of sailing in light and unprotected (from the elements) in dighies like an early version of the 420, a Wayfarer, a Mistral 16, etc it seemed to me I would welcome the convenience of a bunk and a very basic cooking setup. Who knows, sleeping on board would be nice !
Low and behold, after a Siren 17 (too small), I found a West Wight Potter 19 in good condition at a price i could afford.
Unpleasant consequence : the daggerboard/lifting keel arrangement intrudes in a significant way in the cabin AND the effort required to lift this daggerboard is very significant ( for a person of my age 65+). I did replace the lifting cable and hand crank recently - no improvement.
I need to pay attention to the tides with the mooring I use, the keel/daggerboard must be raised.
Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the Potter but perhaps I should have been more aware of the compromise I would have to ''live'' with.
Very much enjoy this vessel but the daggerboard is a real ''pain"
Well at least it’s been a great Olympics.
You betcha but I’m still trying to understand the skateboarding. Eleven years old and working towards the Olympics my entire life…
While we probably don't need "names named," it would be instructive to know the name of the designer ... something traditional in writing about boats.
See WoodenBoat July/August 2009. You didn’t hear it from me…