Talk:noch

it is actually the same thing

new ~ noch

yishtcho[pronounciation sign] = trotzdem

they do have something called hard/soft pronounciation signs, in that language,

German POS

(Notifying Matthias Buchmeier, -sche, Atitarev, Jberkel, Mahagaja, Fay Freak): User:RDBury has removed the particle section (diff) that I've added (diff) with the comment "rm empty section, this seems to be from Duden, which uses an unusual definition of "particle". Anything than might land here would more properly be called an adverb.". I thought it's pretty well established that German modal particles are, well, particles. Example sentences to clarify which senses we're talking about: "Was arbeitest du noch gleich?", "Das wird man ja wohl noch sagen dürfen." Thoughts? — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 08:39, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

I suppose it depends on your definition, but those examples feel very particle-y to me. I'd say an adverb answers (or stands in for) one of the questions "where?", "when?", "why?" or "how?", and I don't feel that noch is answering any of those questions here, unlike in Bist du noch da?, where it's an adverb standing in for the question "when?". —Mahāgaja · talk 13:12, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

It's a matter of how you define particle, but precedent seems to dictate that Wiktionary calls modal adverbs/particles "adverbs". For example mal adverb defs. 2 & 3 are modal, ja adverb def. 2 is modal, nun adverb def. 3 is modal, aber adverb def. 2 is modal. While doch has a definition as a particle, it's meaning as modal particle is listed under adverb in the Usage notes. (It seems like this should a definition though.) Duden differentiates adverbs from particles by saying particles can't start a sentence, which may be true for modal adverbs, but I think Duden's criterion is rather unusual and it's not followed by DWDS. Duden also calls nicht a particle for the same reason, and again that is not how it's classified in Wiktionary. Other than not starting a sentence, modal adverbs/particles meaning is adverbial in nature. This may not be an adverb in the sense where/when/why or how, but in meaning they are similar to "certainly", "however" or "probably", which are not called particles in English. Many grammars make them a separate part of speech, distinguishing them from the relatively few actual particles in German. In any case, the section was empty save for a message saying. in effect, "please fill this in". I thought it was better to remove the section since any meaning as a modal particle could go in the Adverb section following precedent. There is a modal meaning corresponding to def. II in DWDS, which we don't cover (yet). For anyone who's curious, German Wiktionary has different POS labels than English; they have 10 subcategories under Adverb, and one of them is Modalpartikel. --RDBury (talk) 18:27, 14 March 2022 (UTC)