Talk:Songhai Empire

Untitled

I didn't really see any reason to still have the cleanup tag so I pulled it; if whoever put it up wants to note their problems, though, I could see what I can do. Cheers, --Dvyost 03:30, 15 August 2005 (UTC) what about masks and pendants. Cant forget those!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ///// — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.11.5.6 (talk) 17:05, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 28 August 2019 and 12 December 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Peer reviewers: MatBelio44.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 09:48, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Al-Hajj

Whats the deal with him? Is he a real person, like a Askia, or is it really referring to the verse? Darth Panda 03:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Animism vs. Islam

hello bob Given the quote, "... but he also kept the traditional animist beliefs as well, which is a normal practise in the Islamic world."

Is this a 'normal practice' in the Muslim world? While the survival of pre-Muslim religions is common in many Muslim-majority countries persection and repression of non-Muslim, particularly non-Book religions, is also common. Maybe the phrase could be replaced by something like 'traditional animist beliefs were allowed, which was a common practice within the Islamic world'.

It would also be good to have some information on how Islam treated the Animists. Did they become 'dhimmis'? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by David Cheater (talk • contribs) 21:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

Finally

I really despise the Songhai Empire as a historian (the Mali Empire was much greater in my opinion), but this page looked pretty horrible. I went in a reorganized the king list and put a table of contents for the article. I would not wish such a disorganized article on my worst enemy, and Songhai is important to African history. Scott Free 09:00, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

As a historian you are exposing a personal bias (tut-tut)! 144.134.150.203 (talk) 02:33, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Source for Army

Can anyone source the statement about the 200,000 man army. i've never come across any reputable source that put the army above 40,000. Sahelian Armies seem to have gotten smaller as they became more centralized

 Wagadou - 200,000 man levee (40,000 of which were archers; most of the rest were spearmen, unknown number of cavalry)
 Mali - 100,000 man reserve army (10,000 of which were cavalry; 90,000 infantry with 3 archers for every 1 spearmen)
 Songhai - 40,000 man standing army (this may have been augmented by levees)

• Wagadou didn't have a standing army and simply called up every able bodied man when needed
• Mali had a semi-standing army with designated reserves from each tribe in the empire
• Don't know much about how songhai operated.

holla back Scott Free 17:10, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Verification

"89% of people lived in small family owned farmes"

Where does this come from? How is it possible that a succesion of an empire that numbered in the tens of millions had the majority of it's population living in farm houses?

Improvements

Well it seems some folks want to see this article get on par with the Mali Empire page and have added a chart. I went through the chart and made some corrections. I also started pages for the different dynasties, so we don't have to jumble up this page with a king list. If some1 could go through and fix all the red links, I'd much appreciate it. I'm gonna dust off my history books and see if I can bring this article a little closer to B-class. Up, Up and AWAAAY!Scott Free 18:21, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Side note...considering that Songhai was more islamic and used muslim scholars a lot more than the Mali Empire, they didn't leave much in the way of records behind. I can barely find any info on them at all beyond the same stuff I learned in High School. Where's the luv?Scott Free 18:23, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Sources

This article needs inline citations with references. As far as Mali being greater, I'm not sure about that, I just think it had more history written down. Songhay was the greatest and largest Empire in African history, before Morocco came in. The Empire fought off a lot of outsiders, before it actually did fall. Therefore this article needs expanding, clean-up, and more sources. Some online sources I found:

• http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CIVAFRCA/SONGHAY.HTM
• http://www.ijebu.org/songhay/
• http://www.geocities.com/ru00ru00/patrusi/Civilization/civil.html

I'll try to find more. I'm concerned about the correct names being used. It was Sonni Ali, not Sunni Ali. There are others, as you'll find in the above links, I think, anyway. - Jeeny ^Talk 23:05, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

^Thanx Jeeny! I can use two of those most definitely.. I'm still trying to compile sources myself, and this helps a lot.Taharqa 18:05, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

songhai

Hi, Jeeny. Yeah I'm glad someone else noticed the Sonni/sunni thing. I've made changes where I could and even started a Sonni dynasty page to go along. i'll add sources ASAP. I'd have to argue against Songhai being better or even bigger than Mali. Songhai expanded to some far out places very briefly (they were in Manden for less than a year before they got chased out). They just couldn't seem to hold onto anything very long. The Mali Empire on the other hand didn't loose any of its possessions until over 100 years after it began (starting with Songhai). It was at its greatest extent at about 1300 and stayed roughly the same size until 1375. Even after loosing the Songhai and Jolof provinces, Mali was still humongous (1 million sq ki) and pretty darn wealthy. I promise to stop yapping about Mali (i know this is the Songhai page, lol) but it also left a huge cultural influence. About half of West African countries speak some form of Mandinka today as their lingua franca. Songhai is pretty much confined to areas around the Niger bend. In short, Mali is like the black Roman Empire and Songhai seems more like their Visigoth/Ostrogoth counterparts. They conquered alot but didn't leave much behind. The Songhai did manage to conquer the Hausa (no small feat) and scare the Mossi into staying put (something Mali never managed to do). The Mandinka however would never have been conquered by Moroccans or used silly battle tactics like herds of cattle, lol.Scott Free 00:58, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll take a diet Coke. :) You are doing a great job. But wasn't it (Songnai) the greatest empire at one time, at least? I guess it doesn't count because it didn't last as long and didn't leave anything behind like the Mali, even though they beat them up for a minute there? lol. Thanks for all your work. - Jeeny ^Talk 01:02, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

joy here, just a question between mali and Songhai empire which of them were more equipped when it comes to technology 102.89.40.180 (talk) 17:53, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

You're very welcome. Funny u said diet coke...I'm a dietbetic, lol. Gotta give props where props is due, tho. Muhhamad Ture was the greatest conqueror in Africa since Ramses. I wonder who was the better general between him and say Sakura from the Mali Empire. In retrospect, the Songhai Empire eclipsed just about every Africa empire in history for about a decade. I think Mali was the greatest for the longest period of time. Its common people were wealthier than commoners in most parts of the world. And the constitution they made and preserved is a big plus. In the end, I think the ultimate way to figure out how great a state is (or was) is to count how many great rulers it had.

• Mali...Sundjata, Wali, Sakura, Abubakari I, Musa I, Suleyman (6)

Maybe you or some1 else can fill us in on the great rulers of Songhai. Take care every1Scott Free 03:59, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Hahah, Scott definitely has a Mali bias..Taharqa 17:04, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

guilty as charged, lol. Mende on my mom's side of the family.Scott Free 17:22, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

^No doubt. I've expanded on Askia's section, beginning the process of improvement. Will be back tomorrow to add more on Sonni Ali, then keep going. Be sure to edit any typos, or reword for better grammatical diction.Taharqa 06:23, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

• good work, homie. 'preciate it.Scott Free 15:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Sources and questionable statements

While my knowledge about prehistoric africa is clearly lacking, this article contains some statements which seem dubious and should be backed up by sources (actually there is a lack of sourcing throughout the article). E.g.:

• "covering a kingdom that encompassed more landmass than all of western Europe" runs contrary to what the map on this article as well as Image:African-civilizations-map-pre-colonial.svg suggest. "Western Europe" is not a good term for comparison anyway, there are wastely different definitions of western europe around. Someone with knowledge of the extent should find a better comparison.

• "Djenne and Timbuktu were on their way to becoming the greatest centers of learning in the ancient world." Were on their way to becoming? Meaning they never got there? Did they get close? Somewhat close? Ranking centers of learning seems like an impossible task anyway. I suggest the shorter "Djenne and Timbuktu became great centers of learning.". --Xeeron (talk) 15:32, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm aware that you may not be presently active on this page anymore, but I will address your concerns anyhow for whoever else may have had the same inquiry. The question on whether or not Songhai was larger than western Europe, a simple per area comparison can be made. We can also base this on inference. As is mentioned here[1], the Mali empire was larger than all of western Europe. As Songhai was larger, it would make the statement that Songhai was larger than western Europe a given. I'm sure most have the same idea as to the geographical boundaries of western Europe.

As far as your concerns of Djenne, indeed, I will change that as it is misleading and unverifiable. Not to mention the distinction between ancient and medieval. I will change the wording per your recommendations.Taharqa (talk) 22:13, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I've always wondered about the size claim myself since the Songhai Empire's territory changed with its fortunes decade to decade. It 1500 however it was 1.4 million square kilometers as sourced by Hunwick in the article. If you add up the continental portions of what the CIA factbook considers western and southwestern europe (this excludes Monaco, gibraltar, the UK and non-metropolitan France) then western europe is 1,293,508 square kilometers. That being said, I guess we can keep the claim in. Scott Free (talk) 20:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Askia

The Askia section is poorly organized. The end of it seems to belong at the beginning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.200.128.45 (talk) 02:47, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

This section is obviously written by myth-makers wishing to turn Askia into an Islamic paragon and hero. The actual Askia was not so nice a guy. For example, the section constantly praises Askia for his supposed "tolerance," that he did not force Islam on anyone. This is false. In fact, the opposite is true. Certainly before Askia introduced a militant and intolerant version of Islam the previous Songhai rulers, Muslim and other, had been tolerant of diverse religious beliefs (in fact, for some reason unmentioned in this article, but according to ancient Arabic accounts true, Za Alayaman, the legendary founder of the Za dynasty to which the Songkai trace their empire, was Jewish, led and settled a Yemenite Jewish community in the region, and allowed all manner of religious beliefs amongst the people). But Askia broke with all that, and was very intolerant. It is just a matter of historical fact, for example, that Askia decreed that all Jews, along with at least some others in the region, perhaps non-monotheistic traditional pagans, had to convert to Islam, die, or leave. For example, one reads in the Wikipedia article "History of the Jews of Africa": "In 1492, Askia Muhammed came to power in the previously tolerant region of Timbuktu and decreed that Jews must convert to Islam or leave; Judaism became illegal in Mali, as it did in Catholic Spain that same year. As the historian Leo Africanus wrote in 1526: "The king (Askia) is a declared enemy of the Jews. He will not allow any to live in the city. If he hears it said that a Berber merchant frequents them or does business with them, he confiscates his goods." Although other extracts from Leo Africanus are not cited in this particular article, he also wrote about a massacre of Jews in Garura and looting of their properties under Askia, in 1492, which is quoted in the Wikipedia article "Jews of Bilad el-Sudan." So it is evident that Askia is no paragon of ethical leadership, and he set an ominously bad model for future cultural relations in West Africa. For the sake of honesty and scholarly integrity, the entry on Askia should be changed to match the historical record, and the sources I just mentioned should be included in the account. I am just a visitor here, so I will leave it to the more dedicated editors to bring up the standard of this article.110.22.140.136 (talk) 23:05, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Map accuracy concerns

The map in the infobox [2] as well as this map[3] depict the Songhai Empire as extending into the Mande heartland and to the coast between the Casamance and Gambia Rivers. However, as far as I can tell from written sources, it did not control either region. The Songhai did apparently sack the capital of the Mali Empire in 1545 but did not have any long-term control of the region, and I have been unable to find any sources that provide evidence for their control extending all the way to the coast. Additionally, the latter map shows Koumbi Saleh in the territory of Songhai, but my understanding is that Koumbi Saleh was no longer occupied by that time so it probably shouldn't be included in the map. Do these maps need to be revised or could somebody find sources to support those boundaries for the Songhai Empire? Ornithopsis (talk) 20:59, 25 October 2020 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose to merge Dendi Kingdom into Songhai Empire. I think that the content in the Dendi Kingdom article can easily be explained in the context of Bar, and the Bar article is of a reasonable size that the merging of Dendi Kingdom will not cause any problems as far as article size is concerned.

Secondly, most historical books referred to the Dendi Kingdom as just defeated Songhai Empire including the sources and refs in the the article of Dendi Kingdom. The latter was the only province that remained after the Invasion and the nobles that moved and created a new capital continued to call it Songhai until it was no more. The fact that the Songhai Empire continued to flourish in the Dendi province doesn't mean it should be called Dendi Kingdom if most historical books did not explicitly call it Dendi Kingdom but a Songhai Empire in the Dendi province with a smaller territory with the same Askia Dynasty as its rulers.Ibdawud (talk) 23:57, 21 April 2021 (UTC)

This situation seems somewhat analogous to the relationship between the Roman Empire and Byzantine Empire to me. It seems to me that historians treat the Songhai state in Dendi separately from the Songhai Empire. Case in point: one of the sources you mention refers to Askia Ishaq II as "the last ruler of the Songhay empire". As such, I would argue that the Dendi Kingdom and Songhai Empire should be kept as separate pages. However, on account of the fact that it does indeed seem that the phrase "Dendi Kingdom" is not often used in academic literature, I think renaming the page Dendi Kingdom is worth considering if a good alternate name that can be supported by published sources can be found. Ornithopsis (talk) 07:03, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Dendi is a successor state to the empire. They are two different polities. The articles should stay separate. O.M. Nash (talk) 22:08, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

History

The strategic position of Songhai in West Africa that contributed to the prosperity in Songhai 41.13.64.124 (talk) 20:08, 7 March 2022 (UTC)

not much anyway,their religion which was the same with the Arab empire led to some routes which enhances their gold and salt trade in places like gao, Timbuktu etc 102.89.40.180 (talk) 17:59, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

History

Europe expansion and conquest in the 15th and 18th centuries — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A03:2880:32FF:D:0:0:FACE:B00C (talk) 00:00, 14 March 2022 (UTC)

Songhai empire

this was one of the most high tech empire. it had water tech and one of the most successful empire when it comes to salt and gold trade 102.89.40.180 (talk) 17:48, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Ghana empire

according to history the Ghana empire wasn't much to talk about, well the Ghana empire was a popular and famous empire.and it was blessed with natural resources like gold, silver, copper, and salt 102.89.40.180 (talk) 18:06, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Vandalism

"The emperor was the strategist and commander-in-chief of the military, but the balama acted as minister of defence and general. The janky was the army corps general, and the wonky were lieutenants in charge of a garrison. The head of the mounted archers was called the tongue farma. The hike was second in the chain of command of the empire and served as its interior minister. He was assisted by two vice-admirals at the ports of Kabara and Ayourou and commanded over a thousand captains, ensuring the rapid movement of troops along the Niger River. Sonni Ali established a landing port in Oualata, connecting it to the port in Kabara. Only the Malian portion remains; the rest, which continues to Oualata, was buried by the Sahara following the empire's fall.

The infantry was led by a general called the nyay hurry (war elephant), and the camel cavalry, called gu, was led by the guy, or cavalry chief. The cavalry mainly consisted of Berbers recruited from the northern provinces." 76.71.129.92 (talk) 13:55, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

History

I want to find out about a conclusion summary for Sonni Aii and Alia Mohammed do in establishing the Songhai 102.213.20.236 (talk) 13:05, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

"Zaghai"

Where does this name come from? "Songhai" is definitely *not* a "transliteration" of it ("Songhai" in fact comes from the name of the clan of the rulers of the empire.) As far as I can make out, "Zaghai" is a concocted "origin" of this name intended to imply that the Songhai founders were of Berber origin. There is no evidence for this. 86.137.115.146 (talk) 14:26, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Zaghai is not an origin of the Word Songhai, it is a variation of spelling.

Where does it come from? - Simple, the empire is known as the Zaghai due to its establishment by the Za Dynasty, which is undisputed. Sunni Ali, founder of the Empire is the son of Za Yasibay / Yasiboi. The Za / Dia Dynasty are the founders of serveral kingdoms in the region, the Gao Empire and Songhai Empire. Zaghai is another term of the founding clan just as the Zarma people derive their name from 'Za Harma' / Za People.

The Za Dynasty, like many dynasties is of mixed origin, including Berber. This is not an implication but a fact. People did not live in isolation but mixed in this region. Just as the European Royal families are mixed and interconnected.

Had you engaged in an in-depth study of the origins of the Empire, this would've been apparent to you.

The reference here is an academic source. What is your reference to dispute this? "As far as I can make out" is not a sufficient academic rebutal!

Lastly, Berber's are a mixed group of Egyptian, Canaanite, Sabaean, Judean, and Barbary Slaves. Yah Tamaya (talk) 13:44, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

"Berbers are a mixed group of..." and proceeds to list everything including "Barbary Slaves", but no mention of Berbers being their own thing, not just a mix of everyone else. Il Qathar (talk) 14:16, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

That's because Berbers do not call themselves Berbers but Amazigh and by their varied sects such as Sanhaja / Tuareg / Mozabite / Masmuda etc. There is no single "Berber" identity. This term was loosely attributed to various Saharan peoples by Arabs.

Any more questions? Happy to continue this education for you! Yah Tamaya (talk) 14:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

History

sources of income to Songhai economy 102.88.82.178 (talk) 14:23, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Trade along the West Africa coast word only possible 102.88.82.178 (talk) 14:36, 1 April 2024 (UTC)