Talk:Maqluba

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The Eucalyptus

I restored this material, adding a source - many many sources exist. Editor who removed the material appears to misunderstand the use of "signature dish." It is not a claim that a chef has invented a dish. A traditional dish like cassoulet or couscous can become the a signature dish for a chef who prepares the dish with special care and becomes associated with the dish. In this case, a couple of dozen WP:RS books and articles describe the dish as a specialty of Basson's at his restaurant.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:10, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Its also wholly unencyclopedic to include essentially an advertisement for a private restaurant. You have any idea the number of restaurants worldwide that serve maqluba? Or how many of them would call it a signature dish of theirs? This is, I think, an encyclopedia article, and that line violates WP:DUE here. Include it in the article on the restaurant, but including it here is silly. nableezy - 19:49, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Though Im curious if you would use the JPost source to call it a "Palestinian" dish here. nableezy - 19:50, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Though given this I doubt it. nableezy - 19:53, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nableezy, is there any subject you will not turn into an IP-conflict area? Debresser (talk) 21:41, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Im sorry, what? You mean wiping sources that are inconvenient to my position No, wait, that was you. nableezy - 22:51, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If there are other notable chefs and or restaurants described by multiple WP:RS as serving maqluba as a specialty, they can be added to the article. But Nableezy is is quite wrong about food articles, of course we mention notable chefs and notable restaurants on pages about particular dishes for which they are well known, Julia Child on page coq au vin, and so forth.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:43, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, due weight here demands that you show that in the context of coverage of maqluba that this restaurant is something that sources make note of. They dont. Some random restaurant in Tel Aviv making a Palestinian dish is not Julia Child lol, get off it. nableezy - 22:51, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, here is just a short list of the places that can be reliably sourced as serving maqluba:

Syrian Supper club in Edinburgh
Karam Grill in Albany Park, IL
Oregi in Kuala Lumpur
Tawla in San Francisco oh look multiple sources, guess it has to go in now oh snap a third! (though I can personally attest to another restuarant in the Mission making much better maqluba)
Exotic Syrian Deli in Ann Arbor
Royale Songket in Shah Alam, Malaysia

None of these places matter in that they are not an important part of the topic of maqluba. Of course if any of them have an article they can include that they server maqluba there, but here it would be, like the Israeli restuarant, undue weight to include. nableezy - 23:14, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Palestinian

I dont see why people think that a dish being Palestinian means it isnt eaten or cooked by Israeli Jews, but regardless it is well sourced that this is a Palestinian dish. As such I specified that with the sources, two of which were already cited in this article. nableezy - 22:56, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On the other hand This source says it is "a traditional dish of the Arab Levant and Palestine". And this source says it is "a Levantine dish, which Palestinians have made their own" (sound familiar?). The New York Times calls it "a Middle Eastern dish". Debresser (talk) 17:29, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

None of those contradict that it is Palestinian. They are non-specific. The Shrewd Food cite does not appear to be reliable for the origin of a dish, it is a cookbook. The sources that specify the origin and are reliable say Palestinian. nableezy - 19:54, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Or they are specific, and the claim that the dish is "only" Palestinian is incorrect. Debresser (talk) 22:18, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

None of them, the reliable ones at least, dispute that is in fact Palestinian. Whereas several explicitly say it is. nableezy - 05:13, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Continued

In reply to this edit and the argument in its edit summary:

The article at present ignores the many sources that call the dish Levantine or Middle Eastern.
We have already one RS that says it is the other way around: Levantine which Palestinians have made their own.
As far as I can see, those source do not state specifically that the dish is of Palestinian origin, just call it Palestinian, and so they are no clearer about the origins of the dish than the sources that were removed.
The sources do not have the academic status needed to make claims regarding origins of anything, and are therefore not to be preferred to the sources that were removed.
Have can a people that did not exist be the origin of anything? Those who disagree with this argument are invited to ignore it and draw the correct conclusion based on the previous 4.

Especially #1 is an issue that has been bothering me for a long time. On Wikipedia we should neutrally but faithfully represent all opinions, and the article presently does not do so! Debresser (talk) 21:35, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Middle Eastern and Levantine do not in any way contradict Palestinian. They are non-specific, and we have rock solid sources that are specific. Your one source for 2 is not reliable, it is a cookbook. We have a book published by a university press that specifically says it is in fact Palestinian. Your claim that they do not have the "academic status to make claims" is bogus, entirely so. By itself, the Ottolenghi, Yotam (2015). "Jerusalem on a Plate". Gastronomica: The Journal of Critical Food Studies. University of California Press source has all the status one needs here. The source you however are relying on for the bogus " Levantine which Palestinians have made their own" is in fact non-academic (this random cookbook), rendering your point an own-goal. I do not know what have can a people that did not exist be the origin of anything is supposed to mean. Doesnt appear to be English. nableezy - 22:07, 2 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

NoCal, the sources you added are either unreliable or they do not support the text. This is not a reliable source. Nor is this. And the sources for Syrian and Lebanese do not support that they are traditional Syrian or Lebanese dishes. They support they are currently made in Syria and Lebanon and by Syrians and Lebanese. nableezy - 03:12, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

For now, I'll let your "NoCal" CIVIL comment slide. As for your other comments, let's start with this: you might want to get clarity as to what "Staple Syrian recipes" means in English. The Kingfisher (talk) 05:15, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It means commonly eaten as part of modern Syrian cuisine. It does not mean it is traditionally Syrian. How about you start with the wholly unreliable sources I raised? nableezy - 06:08, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Then I'm sure you'll agree that "Maqluba or “upside down” is a Palestinian dish" from this source does not mean that it is "traditionally" Palestinian. Will you be removing that RS? The Kingfisher (talk) 15:48, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, there are other sources for that though (eg [1]. You plan on removing the things you made up in this article and the sources that are not reliable? nableezy - 16:22, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

No, Nableezy. It is not called Middle Eastern or Levantine because they are not specific. That is your interpretation / original research. If sources say Middle Eastern or Levantine, it is because they are from the general region. That specifically means that it is not just Palestinian, as you would apparently like it to be. Debresser (talk) 18:52, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Debresser, Levantine does not contradict Palestinian. One is a subset of another. If somebody were to say I am an American they would be correct. If they were to call me a Chicagoan, they would also be correct. Your argument is that American contradicts Chicagoan. It does not, one is more specific than the other. And, again, the best source in this article very specifically calls it a Palestinian dish. I get that some people dislike the idea that Israel has appropriated Palestinian culture and cuisine. Im sorry if that is an uncomfortable topic. It does not however mean we erase the well-sourced fact that this specific dish is a traditional Palestinian dish. nableezy - 19:25, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am fine with it being Palestinian, whether originally or appropriated. What I am not fine with is with the fact that it is generally Levantine is not mentioned directly. Debresser (talk) 22:00, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem mentioning that directly either. nableezy - 22:57, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

External links removed

I know that Wikipedia is not a HowTo book, but still, shound't we have at least one website with a recipe on an article about food-stuff? Debresser (talk) 22:20, 21 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I dont see why, but to the point there are multiple ways of making this, with multiple bases, so I dont know why one recipe would be better than any other. nableezy - 05:13, 23 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So keep one, by way of example. Debresser (talk) 15:36, 24 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My point is no one is better than any other. And regardless I dont see why we should have a recipe anyway. But fine Ill add the NYT recipe. nableezy - 20:05, 25 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I observe that the linked recipe published by the NYT is totally blocked by a paywall. I wonder how useful this link really is? Perhaps choose an open access site with a suitable (representative) recipe by another USA based writer, such as https://amiraspantry.com/maqlooba, for example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pemulwuy (talk • contribs) 05:51, 27 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed new lede

Sources show that maqluba is an Arabic, Middle Eastern, and Levantine dish:

The Jerusalem Post: "Maklube is a traditional one-pot dish from Arab cuisine...Cooked in one pot, the Middle Eastern delicacy maklube is a..."^[1]

The Guardian: “Maqluba: A Levantine sensation…” “...traditional Levantine dish”^[2]

Milwaukee Journal Sentinel: "maqluba, a traditional Arabic dish"^[3]
Forbes: "The highlight of the night was the makluba—a wonderful traditional Arab chicken and rice stew"^[4]
Publication: I Still Have Hope: "Makluba, a traditional Middle Eastern dish."^[5]

While there are different variations from various countries,^[6] some editors seems to be POV-pushing that it is a uniquely Palestinian dish. These same editors also appear to be more interested in making the lede about this being a Palestinian dish rather than actually describing the uniqueness of the dish itself: an upside-down rice and meat dish. Since the dish actually dates back to the 13th century,^[7] it was obviously around prior to any incarnation of Palestine, so it shouldn't be included in the lede as a uniquely Palestinian (or any other particular country's) dish.

I propose the following lede sentence:

Maqluba (Arabic: مقلوبة‎) is a Middle Eastern Arabic rice and meat "upside-down" dish served throughout the Levant.^[1]^[2]^[3]^[4]^[5]

The different variations can be highlighted inside the article. The Kingfisher (talk) 22:18, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be both distorting several sources and ignoring several others. To begin with, what CNN says is that a version of an upside down dish appears in a 13th century cookbook, not that the modern dish is the same as that. Beyond that, sources that say Middle Eastern or Levantine do not in any way contradict "Palestinian", whereas several sources give a more specific origin. All your sources about it being made by Syrians, or Saudis, or whoever, that is not even a little bit relevant to its origin. Beyond that, your charge on some editors (lol), is very much not true. Nobody is saying it is a uniquely Palestinian dish. It is indeed served throughout the Arab world. As are Egyptian dishes. That they are widely eaten doesnt negate an origin. The only people suppressing anything, aka POV-pushing, are those insisting on including such reliable sources as this lovely handwritten recipe to pretend that there is some reasonable dispute about the origin. nableezy - 22:56, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And by the way, the distortion of several sources and the insertion of completely unreliable garbage by your good self has yet to be self-corrected. nableezy - 23:00, 3 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

You can't talk away the very clear words that Maqluba is "a Levantine dish, which Palestinians have made their own".^[8] It is frankly obvious, that a non-existing people can not have a "traditional" food, and all they can have is something they usurped from other, pre-existing, traditions from their region. Debresser (talk) 08:44, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Debresser, that isnt a reliable source for the source of a dish. Its a cookbook by dedicated foodie and home-cook extraordinaire. There are actual reliable sources quoted in the article, quoting again here:

Ottolenghi, Yotam (2015). "Jerusalem on a Plate". Gastronomica: The Journal of Critical Food Studies. 15 (1). University of California Press: 3. doi:10.1525/gfc.2015.15.1.1. ISSN 1529-3262. Maqluba, an upside-down rice and vegetable cake that is actually Palestinian
Timothy L. Gall; Jeneen Hobby (2009). Worldmark Encyclopedia of Cultures and Daily Life. Gale. p. 782. ISBN 978-1-4144-4892-3. The most traditional Palestinian meals are maqluba, musakhan, and mansaf

Not everything you find on google books is a reliable source. Sort of like NoCal stuffing in an *.edu page that is a handwritten recipe is not a reliable source just because it has a .edu in the url. Also, Im going to need you to clarify "non-existing people". nableezy - 17:11, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Nableezy, we'll basically "begin" and end with CNN. Aside from your misdirection, the source clearly says: "The word maqluba, in fact, means "upside down," and it's a dish that goes back centuries..."

If you want to focus on the additional wording that a "version appears in the 13th-century..." fine. The term actually strengthens my point that the dish is Middle Eastern/Arabic/Levantine with several "versions" in different areas.

Now, let's change the word traditional to origin. Are you saying that Muqluba's origin is Palestine? If so, are you going to add it to the Protected Designation of Origin article?

I'm not interested in responding to your straw man arguments about weak sources. Stick to the facts and the structure of the article that Palestine, Syria, Saudi Arabia and no other countries belong in the lede sentence. The various "versions" can be added in a new section.

You also need to stop referring to me as NoCal. --The Kingfisher (talk) 20:08, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why tho? You seem to have the seem proclivity to refuse to include the complete quotes from the sources you claim to support your position, because the next line from CNN is a version appears in the 13th-century Kitāb Al-tabīkh. A version. And it isnt a straw man about weak sources. You include a source that says it is a staple Syrian recipe of a dish to include in the article the unsubstantiated claim that it is a traditional Syrian dish. You use a handwritten recipe to claim it is a traditional Saudi dish. You really did that. That isnt a strawman, that is raising your excessively poor edit, and so far refusal to rectify it. nableezy - 21:49, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, self reverted. Now let's see where your argument goes. Will you respond to my origin question(s)? --The Kingfisher (talk) 22:54, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What is bidoun.org and why is it a reliable source? nableezy - 23:42, 4 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

How about you tell us why Bidoun isn't a reliable source? --The Kingfisher (talk) 02:10, 6 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ ^a ^b "Upside down and delicious - Israel News - Jerusalem Post". www.jpost.com. Retrieved 2019-01-03.
^ ^a ^b Fearnley-Whittingstall, Hugh (2009-09-25). "Hot stuff: Aubergines, peppers and chillies | Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall". The Guardian. ISSN 0261-3077. Retrieved 2019-01-03.
^ ^a ^b Kazan, Joan Elovitz. "Ramadan fast makes food special". www.jsonline.com. Retrieved 2019-01-03.
^ ^a ^b Nachman, Sherrie. "Jerusalem's Eucalyptus Restaurant Has Created the Ultimate Foodie Experience". Forbes. Retrieved 2019-01-03.
^ ^a ^b Carradin, Fadwa (January 2013). I Still Have Hope. Xlibris. p. 268. ISBN 9781479776375.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: year (link)
^ "Ramadan, Reshaped: Syrians Abroad Find New Ways to Celebrate". National Geographic. 2016-06-30. Retrieved 2019-01-03.
^ CNN, Jen Rose Smith (2018-01-02). "Beyond hummus: 10 foods you must try in Jordan". CNN Travel. Retrieved 2019-01-03. {{cite web}}: |last= has generic name (help)
^ https://books.google.co.il/books?id=WeEx-D2g-s0C&pg=PT127&dq=Maqluba+Levantine+dish&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiGgsLu_-XeAhUNOK0KHaK1DJAQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Maqluba%20Levantine%20dish&f=false

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 January 2022

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The picture used is not a good representation of the recipe, it has to look like a cake. VitoLaham (talk) 20:09, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:19, 4 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Irrelevant "Gulenist delacacy" paragraph

This change https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Maqluba&diff=prev&oldid=994786294 "The public view of maqluba in Turkey since 2016 is briefly described." adds a paragraph that does not appear to have any basis for being here in my mind. I could only find a few references to this online and they all linked to each other. The references article is paywalled but appears to basically just say that someone had a photo of the dish on their phone and we charged with terrorism.

I propose this edit is removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.77.137.255 (talk) 19:12, 22 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Food in the Islamic Middle East

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 13 January 2022 and 25 April 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Caspoupee (article contribs).

What's with the big efforts to change the fact it is a Palestinian dish?

Everyone with half a brain should know why for example new York times or many like that of the media will call this dish middle eastern so they don't upset their bosses and be politically against the mainstream on continuous effort to erase Palestinian identity. But, the shameful thing is to be from certain countries in the middle east who should knowfrom their grand grand parents know that it's in fact authentic Palestinian dish except it gotten so popular that many other Arab countries made it part of their main dishes and by doing so help the zionist cause of erasing anything Palestinian in the world. Iraq makes it for sure and may even make better who knows, but its called "Iraqi maqloobah" because it's really different than the original. Also, Lebanon, Syria,... Etc all make it because of the so closiness in foods between what is called Levant coutries. But you don't see Palestinian claiming that they invented " kibbi". Just a thought. 2603:9000:EF00:240D:5C6A:56F2:582B:1BED (talk) 15:00, 15 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 July 2023

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Add an ingredient, remove Israeli cuisine from the "See Also" accordion since it is not an Israeli dish, and label the dish as Palestinian since that is where it originates from, and mention other variations. SoftwareEngineerr (talk) 12:08, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: A. If an ingredient more should be mentioned, bring a source. B. I don’t see anything wrong with having, among many others, Israeli cuisine mentioned in the See also section. C. The lead currently says "is a traditional Iraqi, Lebanese, Palestinian, Jordanian, and Syrian dish served throughout the Levant." D. Other variations: feel free to post a sourced edit request in this regard. Sam Sailor 13:16, 19 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I have few important points to share with you:

1)It's not part of the Israeli Cuisine, it's not a traditional Israeli dish unlike chicken schnitzels for example, Israeli Jewish don't make it traditionally either and the dish is part of the Levantine cuisine and broader Arab cuisine and it's most commonly associated with the Levantine sub-group the Palestinians and it has an Arabic name that expresses what it is (Maqlouba..) .

The wiki page stating it's traditional Israeli cuisine is wrong, it's not traditional to Israelis(unless they're 48 Palestinian Arabs).

here's some insights:

>https://www.e-vrit.co.il/Product/21546/%D7%9E%D7%A7%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%91%D7%94

this Hebrew book states: "Maklouba - "upside down" in Arabic - is an Arab-Palestinian stew of rice, chicken and vegetables in a pot, which before serving is turned over on a wide platter. And from this step there is no going back."

>https://food.walla.co.il/item/3592692

this Israeli website states: "The food that we all know today as makluba, is an ancient dish called Badanjania (Badanjan means eggplant in Arabic) and it was mainly prepared from eggplants."

>https://www.facebook.com/510760212281172/posts/2733798886643949

this local Jerusalemite shares a historical background for the 'Maqluba' and how its name came to be indicating its current form came with Palestinian(Arab) roots. :"The upside-down was called Badanjania because of the abundance of eggplants in it and when Saladin the Ayyubid liberated Jerusalem

The people of Jerusalem fed Saladin and his soldiers the eggplant dish

So he asked for her name, but he could not remember it, and whenever he visited Jerusalem, he would say to them, ``I want the dish that you loved, and from Jerusalem it spread to the Levant.And from that day it was called the upside down(in Arabic Maqloba)...And the first people who cooked it were the people of Jerusalem and the villages surrounding Jerusalem, such as Al-Malhah, Ain Karm, Lafta, Beit Safafa, Beit Axa Deir Yassin"

2) The root of Modern Maqloba being Badanjania(the eggplant dish) seems to be corroborated by the recipe of Maqloba in the 13th century Iraqi book mentioned in the article "The book of cooking by Muhammad bin Hassan al-Baghdadi". I'll explain how.

The recipe of ancient Maqloba in the book is under the fifth section and the recipe is written as follows(translated from Arabic):

"( Maqloba ) :

The red meat is taken and cut, then pounded with a cleaver, then transferred to a mortar and pounded as finely as possible. Fresh sumac is taken and boiled with water, then filtered after it has been ground well, and the ground meat is put in it, and boiled until it is cooked and all the sumac water is drunk. The water is immersed twice. Then remove it from the pot, sprinkle a little lime water on it, and spread it until it dries. Finely ground Coriander seeds, cumin, pepper, and cinnamons were seeded on it, and dry Mentha pods were rubbed on it, and walnuts were taken and ground up and added to it, and eggs were taken and broken and thrown on it, and mixed with it well. Then it's made discs and fried with the soft Sesame in a gentle iron or copper frying pan. When one side of them is cooked, turn the other side over, then remove. "

.

The book recipe doesn't match modern-Day Maqloba (although they may be related in some way), it even misses the main ingredients and is prepared differently. This shows that Modern Maqloba is different than the one mentioned in the 13th century book and it also fits with the previous hypothesis suggesting it has Palestinian roots when they changed its name from Badanjania to Maqloba following an event with Saladin the Ayyubid(so maybe around the 12th century), that it is a local heritage of the Palestinians in its modern-day form.

On more basic terms, the Maqloba is considered a Palestinian heritage by the Arabs in the Levant and in Iraq , which strengthens my belief. TemporaryProfile00 (talk) 08:44, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

another source explaining in detail: Maqloba a historical dish TemporaryProfile00 (talk) 11:23, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 November 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Not an Israeli dish 2001:16A2:F60B:1C00:F88E:31BE:8D6E:69F1 (talk) 19:05, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It’s a dish Arabs in the Middle East invented not Israel included 2001:16A2:F60B:1C00:F88E:31BE:8D6E:69F1 (talk) 19:06, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: There has been recent disagreement on this talk page and a recently declined edit request regarding the identity of this dish. Consensus is required as a result. —Sirdog (talk) 05:13, 10 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not part of the Israeli Cuisine, it's not a traditional Israeli dish unlike chicken schnitzels for example, Israeli Jewish don't make it traditionally either and the dish is part of the levantine cuisine and it has an arabic name that expresses what it is (maqlouba..) . This makes no sense.

This borders cultural appropriation TemporaryProfile00 (talk) 07:05, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add few points just in case,

The wiki page stating it's **traditional** Israeli cuisine is wrong, it's not traditional to Israelis(unless they're 48 Palestinian Arabs which would be Palestinian-Levantine).

here's some insights:

>https://www.e-vrit.co.il/Product/21546/%D7%9E%D7%A7%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%91%D7%94

This Hebrew book states: "Maklouba - "upside down" in Arabic - is an Arab-Palestinian stew of rice, chicken and vegetables in a pot, which before serving is turned over on a wide platter. And from this step there is no going back."

>https://food.walla.co.il/item/3592692

This Israeli website states: "The food that we all know today as makluba, is an ancient dish called Badanjania (Badanjan means eggplant in Arabic) and it was mainly prepared from eggplants."

>https://www.facebook.com/510760212281172/posts/2733798886643949

This local Jerusalemite shares a historical background for the 'Maqluba' and how its name came to be indicating its current form came with Palestinian(Arab) roots. :"The upside-down was called Badanjania because of the abundance of eggplants in it and when Saladin the Ayyubid liberated Jerusalem

The people of Jerusalem fed Saladin and his soldiers the eggplant dish

So he asked for her name, but he could not remember it, and whenever he visited Jerusalem, he would say to them, ``I want the dish that you loved, and from Jerusalem it spread to the Levant.And from that day it was called the upside down(in Arabic Maqloba)...And the first people who cooked it were the people of Jerusalem and the villages surrounding Jerusalem, such as Al-Malhah, Ain Karm, Lafta, Beit Safafa, Beit Axa Deir Yassin"

2) The root of Modern Maqloba being Badanjania(the eggplant dish) seems to be corroborated by the recipe of Maqloba in the 13th century Iraqi book mentioned in the article "The book of cooking by Muhammad bin Hassan al-Baghdadi". I'll explain how.

The recipe of ancient Maqloba in the book is under the fifth section and the recipe is written as follows(translated from Arabic):

"( Maqloba ) :

The red meat is taken and cut, then pounded with a cleaver, then transferred to a mortar and pounded as finely as possible. Fresh sumac is taken and boiled with water, then filtered after it has been ground well, and the ground meat is put in it, and boiled until it is cooked and all the sumac water is drunk. The water is immersed twice. Then remove it from the pot, sprinkle a little lime water on it, and spread it until it dries. Finely ground Coriander seeds, cumin, pepper, and cinnamons were seeded on it, and dry Mentha pods were rubbed on it, and walnuts were taken and ground up and added to it, and eggs were taken and broken and thrown on it, and mixed with it well. Then it's made discs and fried with the soft Sesame in a gentle iron or copper frying pan. When one side of them is cooked, turn the other side over, then remove. "

.

The book recipe doesn't match modern-Day Maqloba (although they may be related in some way), it even misses the main ingredients and is prepared differently. This shows that Modern Maqloba is different than the one mentioned in the 13th century book and it also fits with the previous hypothesis suggesting it has Palestinian roots when they changed its name from Badanjania to Maqloba following an event with Saladin the Ayyubid(so maybe around the 12th century), that it is a local heritage of the Palestinians in its modern-day form.

On more basic terms, the Maqloba is considered a Palestinian heritage by the Arabs in the Levant and in Iraq , which strengthens my belief . Please Take this into consideration .

. TemporaryProfile00 (talk) 08:48, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

another source explaining in detail: Maqloba a historical dish TemporaryProfile00 (talk) 11:24, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You have to convince relevant editors on this talk page - not me. I simply advised that your desired edit is ineligible for our edit request process. —Sirdog (talk) 13:30, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Just as references were provided for all the other cited countries, I think a reference for Israel claim needs to be added. Otherwise any group that makes and enjoys this dish could be added. Makluba is an ARABIC word meaning upside down. Makluba is not a Hebrew word. Arabic is not a national language. It needs to be removed. 76.77.180.186 (talk) 21:24, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi ,

I'm another user but I've added many context and sourced material for an edit for this wiki page and would like some insight from you since I'm confused.

Can you explain why an edit is ineligible for your edit request process? I'm not sure why that is? And in this specific case also where the sources do not at all support the wiki page allegations and even disproves it? Is there an underlying issue that I am unaware of?

TemporaryProfile00 (talk) 10:04, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Makluba is not an Israeli dish. I propose the removal of Israel from this wiki page.

Just as references were provided for all the other cited countries, I think a reference for the Israel claim needs to be added. Otherwise any group that makes and enjoys this dish could be added. Makluba is an ARABIC word meaning upside down referring to the way that this dish is put together. Makluba is not a Hebrew word. Arabic is not Israel's national language. It needs to be removed. 76.77.180.186 (talk) 21:27, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@SpinnerLaserzthe2nd: Could you please add a reference for your edit, or revert? — Mdaniels5757 (talk • contribs) 22:53, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The wiki page stating it's **traditional** Israeli cuisine is wrong, it's not traditional to Israelis(unless they're 48 Palestinian Arabs which would be Palestinian-Levantine).

here's some insights:

https://www.haaretz.co.il/food/recipes/2023-04-20/ty-article-recipe/00000187-9cf2-d50b-a78f-fdf36da90000

this Israeli reputable newspaper says : "Maklouba is a traditional Palestinian dish", notice how It's not called even once Israeli.

>https://www.e-vrit.co.il/Product/21546/%D7%9E%D7%A7%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%91%D7%94

This Hebrew book states: "Maklouba - "upside down" in Arabic - is an Arab-Palestinian stew of rice, chicken and vegetables in a pot, which before serving is turned over on a wide platter. And from this step there is no going back."

>https://food.walla.co.il/item/3592692

This Israeli website states: "The food that we all know today as makluba, is an ancient dish called Badanjania (Badanjan means eggplant in Arabic) and it was mainly prepared from eggplants."

These English sources corroborate this: https://feedo.blog/maqluba-recipe-maklouba/

https://embassies.gov.il/chicago/CulturalNews/Our%20Weekly%20Recipe/Pages/Maqluba.aspx

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/two-tour-guides-offer-a-new-way-to-see-holy-land-180972503/

https://asif.org/recipes/rabiya-fresh-fava-bean-maqluba/

the last source says :"Maqluba is the flagship dish of Palestinian cuisine. It is said to have originated in Jerusalem in 1187, and that it was Saladin, the sultan of Egypt and Syria, who changed its name from baitenjaniyeh (eggplant) to maqluba (upside-down) when he requested some of that “upside-down dish” at the feast celebrating conquering Jerusalem. A classic maqluba, as its former name suggests, contains eggplant and caramelized onions. Over time, carrots and cauliflower were also added to the ingredients list and today there are also versions with potatoes, tomatoes, and even bell peppers."

>https://www.facebook.com/510760212281172/posts/2733798886643949

This local Arabic Jerusalemite shares a similar historical background for the 'Maqluba' and how its name came to be indicating its current form came with Palestinian(Arab) roots. :"The upside-down was called Badanjania because of the abundance of eggplants in it and when Saladin the Ayyubid liberated JerusalemThe people of Jerusalem fed Saladin and his soldiers the eggplant dishSo he asked for her name, but he could not remember it, and whenever he visited Jerusalem, he would say to them, ``I want the dish that you loved, and from Jerusalem it spread to the Levant.And from that day it was called the upside down(in Arabic Maqloba)...And the first people who cooked it were the people of Jerusalem and the villages surrounding Jerusalem, such as Al-Malhah, Ain Karm, Lafta, Beit Safafa, Beit Axa Deir Yassin"2) The root of Modern Maqloba being Badanjania(the eggplant dish) seems to be corroborated by the recipe of Maqloba in the 13th century Iraqi book mentioned in the article "The book of cooking by Muhammad bin Hassan al-Baghdadi". I'll explain how.The recipe of ancient Maqloba in the book is under the fifth section and the recipe is written as follows(translated from Arabic):"( Maqloba ) :The red meat is taken and cut, then pounded with a cleaver, then transferred to a mortar and pounded as finely as possible. Fresh sumac is taken and boiled with water, then filtered after it has been ground well, and the ground meat is put in it, and boiled until it is cooked and all the sumac water is drunk. The water is immersed twice. Then remove it from the pot, sprinkle a little lime water on it, and spread it until it dries. Finely ground Coriander seeds, cumin, pepper, and cinnamons were seeded on it, and dry Mentha pods were rubbed on it, and walnuts were taken and ground up and added to it, and eggs were taken and broken and thrown on it, and mixed with it well. Then it's made discs and fried with the soft Sesame in a gentle iron or copper frying pan. When one side of them is cooked, turn the other side over, then remove. ".The book recipe doesn't match modern-Day Maqloba (although they may be related in some way), it even misses the main ingredients and is prepared differently. This shows that Modern Maqloba is different than the one mentioned in the 13th century book and it also fits with the previous hypothesis suggesting it has Palestinian roots when they changed its name from Badanjania to Maqloba following an event with Saladin the Ayyubid(so maybe around the 12th century), that it is a local heritage of the Palestinians in its modern-day form.On more basic terms, the Maqloba is considered a Palestinian heritage by the Arabs in the Levant and in Iraq , which strengthens my belief .

.

Please Take this into consideration . TemporaryProfile00 (talk) 01:58, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

another source is this : Maqloba story additional source TemporaryProfile00 (talk) 02:01, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

looking forward for your reconsideration and reply. TemporaryProfile00 (talk) 02:02, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not through any of the subgroups of the Israeli jewish community. They don't make it and they don't eat it traditionally at all , this is factually wrong . It's only through 48 Palestinians

It's not through Israeli jewish community. They don't make it and they don't eat , and surely it's not traditional to them . this is factually wrong . How can a specific edit with no sources and no basis in real life be made so irresponsibly? This borders cultural appropriation and includes misinformation.

If anything It's through 48 Palestinians, who are called arab Israeli community and they're non jewish Israeli(edit: the source that was recently added is a 48 Palestinian restaurant! The editors here are contradicting themselves). Why is this even distorted in the article and contended .

Jewish population of Israel -even the Mizarhi one(or as the edit calls them Arab-jews) doesn't traditionally make Maqloba. I've showed Maqloba specifically in its current form is a Levantine dish( one story suggesting Palestinian roots, especially since the recipe in the Iraqi book is extremely different from the modern day Maqloba commonly associated with Palestinians, read my previous comment for more details).

In real life it's not a tradition for Israeli "Arab-jewish" (Israelis don't even use this term ) and the population of "Arab jews" doesn't make it. their roots are mostly non levantines and it's not a traditional dish for them in any capacity. . .

In Israel among Israelis and in the Levant among levantine people like Syrians and Lebanese and in the Arab world itself, the consensus is, as I've shown in past reputable and even trust worthy Arabic and even in many Israeli Hebrew sources and even in the Arabic wiki page (this dish is Arab mind you), that this dish is an Arab-Palestinian dish and not at all Israeli(to any subgroups of the Israeli jewish community not even what you falsely called "arab jews" who don't subscribe to this. And is only traditional to the 48 Palestinians who are non-jews arab Israelis if you're really looking for accuracy) and this dish came from Palestine it moved to the rest of the Levant and to Iraq. Please refer to my comment in previous topic to review the sources and the evidence. ( I can restate and organize them for you in any way you wish if you wish)

Please revise accordingly and I'm ready if you need any translations as well. SpinnerLaserzthe2nd Julietdeltalima WikiEditor50 Thepharoah17 El C Debresser Plastikspork Drmies Sam Sailor nableezy

. TemporaryProfile00 (talk) 01:46, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like two "sources" have been added now but there are some issues and discrepancy to investigate here,

one source being the Haifa arab restaurant called Fattoush which is a 48 Palestinian restaurant which further proves what I said earlier . This in Israel is Palestinian food and is served by non-jewish arabs, opposite of what is written in the wiki page , this source literally disproves the allegation of the editor SpinnerLaserzthe2nd who wrote it's traditionally cooked in arab-jewish Israeli community, this shows it's 48 Palestinians food as I've already stated before, and as all evidence shows, including the source SpinnerLaserzthe2nd provided.

As for second source which is an article from oct 13 2023 and it reads:"Adina, cooked his favorite Iraqi food, including a traditional dish with dough, meat and rice. " ,

the article claims clearly that it is an Iraqi dish it doesn't claim it's traditional to Israelis at all on the contrary she stresses that it's Iraqi food several times and it also insinuates that it's extraordinarily despite not living in Iraq but in Israel, she still likes to make it for her husband(May God bless his soul and have mercy on him) because he liked 'the Iraqi dish' because he liked eating it, and the wiki article already explicitly says that it's Iraqi cuisine. Also, the whole premise of this story which presented as "source" is argumentative. Is sushi American because Americans of Japanese descent like to eat it? Because wiki clearly states it's a Japanese food. Same about Pizza. As it should, any other allegation would be an attempt at cultural appropriation.

What's more she said she makes it with "dough, meat and rice. " the popular version we have the wiki article for is not traditionally made with dough at all, meaning it's not the traditional version of this food. Also I want highlight my previously mentioned hypothesis that there might have been a previous different food called Maqloba documented in 13 century by "the cook book" but the popular and known version of Maqloba today actually has roots in Palestine in 12 century with the story I've introduced before and from there it was popularized as Arab food elsewhere and it is the food mentioned in this wiki. TemporaryProfile00 (talk) 09:38, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,

Please consider my thorough and important points and proofs above as well.

Thank you

I await your impartial , unbiased and fair response after reviewing all this evidence and hope to engage in an unbiased conversation to explain your rationale and mine with sourced material and appropriate frames.

SpinnerLaserzthe2nd Julietdeltalima WikiEditor50 Thepharoah17 El C Debresser Plastikspork Drmies

Sam Sailor nableezy TemporaryProfile00 (talk) 09:40, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think the statement that this is an Araba Israeli dish is most likely true. I nevertheless removed the statement from the article, because the so-called sources didn't support it (at all!). In addition, a restaurant website is not a reliable source. Debresser (talk) 16:15, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed new introduction and History paraghraph

I filed a request for an edit of the article. As shown in the previous topic above this one, there might be some discrepancies in the current version of the article. I think some changes may be required to address these issues. I also would like to suggest a paragraph explaining the origin of the dish and to expand the article with sourced material.

I propose the following introduction to reflect the dependable information we have:

Maqluba or maqlooba (Arabic: مقلوبة) is a traditional Arab dish that is present in Palestinian, Syrian, Lebanese, Jordanian and Iraqi traditional cuisine, the dish is also found traditionally among the Arab citizens of Israel.

It consists of meat, rice, and fried vegetables placed in a pot which is flipped upside down when served, hence the name maqluba, which translates literally as "upside-down."

The dish goes back centuries with estimations going as far back as the early 12th century or 13th century.

I propose the following historical background to be added in a different paragraph to reflect the dependable information we have:

The origin of Maqluba is controversial. The modern-day version of the dish most likely originated in the Levant. One popular story recited in multiple Arabic and non-Arabic sources mentions the Maqloba originating from an ancient earlier dish called Bazanjaniya (the eggplant dish) that had been known in Jordan, Palestine and Lebanon for a long time by then , until the day of the conquest of the city of Jerusalem in the 12th century at the hands of Saladin al-Ayyubi when to celebrate this victory and conquest, the people of the city of Jerusalem presented food to Saladin and his soldiers as they did on Holy days, it was also customary for the serving food trays to be turned over in front of the guest, and when Saladin ate the Bazanjaniya (eggplant dish), he liked it very much, so he asked about the name of this dish, describing it as the upside-down dish (and in Arabic Maqloba) and from then on the Bazanjaniya dish was called Maqluba.

A dish called "Maqloba" also appears in the 13th century work of Muhammad bin Hassan al-Baghdadi , "The book of cooking" , that commemorates old recipes of the Levantine and Iraqi cuisine, and in this book Maqloba is described as fried discs made' chiefly, of red meat.

The original version of the modern-day Arab Maqluba was prepared with bulgur since it was widely available while rice was reserved exclusively for the rich. Over time, trade routes improved and rice prices dropped, and the grains quickly replacing bulgur in many Palestinian dishes.

Today, Maqloba is eaten throughout the Arab world, and is considered one of the most celebrated dishes in the Palestinian cuisine and has been called "the flagship dish of Palestinian cuisine". Maqluba is traditionally served on Fridays, and you will find it served in most homes in the country on the first day of Ramadan, and several more times during the month.

Would you agree with this proposal based on your sources and the sourced I've mentioned before? @SpinnerLaserzthe2nd

List of new sources to support the edits:

English Language sources:

((for "traditionally among the Arab citizens of Israel." part in introduction))

https://www.timesofisrael.com/fattoush-a-hidden-gem-of-coexistence/

Credit: this is originally source given by @SpinnerLaserzthe2nd

((for historical background paragraph + introduction explaining the cuisine and its history))

https://asif.org/recipes/rabiya-fresh-fava-bean-maqluba/

https://feedo.blog/maqluba-recipe-maklouba/

https://embassies.gov.il/chicago/CulturalNews/Our%20Weekly%20Recipe/Pages/Maqluba.aspx

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/two-tour-guides-offer-a-new-way-to-see-holy-land-180972503/

https://www.liverice.com/culinary/2016/1/16/upside-down

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20190517-saladins-maklouba/

https://www.middleeasteye.net/discover/how-make-palestinian-maqluba-dine-discover

Arabic Language Sources:

(for historical background + introduction paragraph)

https://www.aljazeera.net/lifestyle/2019/3/8/%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%85%D9%82%D9%84%D9%88%D8%A8%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%81%D9%84%D8%B3%D8%B7%D9%8A%D9%86%D9%8A%D8%A9-%D8%A3%D9%83%D9%84%D8%A9-%D8%AA%D8%A7%D8%B1%D9%8A%D8%AE%D9%8A%D8%A9

https://arabicpost.net/%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%8A%D9%81-%D8%B3%D8%AA%D8%A7%D9%8A%D9%84/2020/05/08/%D8%B7%D8%A8%D9%82-%D9%85%D9%82%D9%84%D9%88%D8%A8%D8%A9-%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%84%D8%AD%D9%85%D8%A9-%D9%88%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A8%D8%A7%D8%B0%D9%86%D8%AC%D8%A7%D9%86/

https://www.facebook.com/510760212281172/posts/2733798886643949

Hebrew Language Sources:

(for historical background + introduction)

https://www.haaretz.co.il/food/recipes/2023-04-20/ty-article-recipe/00000187-9cf2-d50b-a78f-fdf36da90000

https://food.walla.co.il/item/3592692

https://www.e-vrit.co.il/Product/21546/%D7%9E%D7%A7%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%91%D7%94

TemporaryProfile00 (talk) 11:28, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This proposal is too long, and has too many external links, to be understandable. See WP:Wall of text. Debresser (talk) 16:17, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]