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{{contentious topics/talk notice|a-i}}
{{ITN talk|28 September|2024|oldid=1248263633}}
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== Requested move 27 September 2024 ==
<div class="boilerplate mw-archivedtalk" style="background-color: var(--background-color-success-subtle, #efe); color: var(--color-base, #000); margin: 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted var(--border-color-subtle, #AAAAAA);"><!-- Template:RM top -->
:''The following is a closed discussion of a [[Wikipedia:Requested moves|requested move]]. <span style="color: var(--color-error, red);">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a [[Wikipedia:move review|move review]] after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.''

The result of the move request was: Closed as '''No consensus'''. I count 41 users who in some way participated in the discussion, and 16 of them either supported the version which got the most votes — Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah — or at least did not oppose it. Others explicitly opposed or preferred another version. I also do not see the arguments of any of the sides significantly stronger than others, all arguments are reasonable, and at the end of the day it is about personal preferences. At this point, I do not see consensus moving the article anywhere, nor keeping it at the current title. It might make sense to try again in a few months if somebody wants to.--[[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 20:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC)  [[User:Ymblanter|Ymblanter]] ([[User talk:Ymblanter|talk]]) 20:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
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{{RM extended confirmed|a-i|other=RfC}}
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{{Tmbox
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|image = [[File:Wikipedia page mover.svg|45px]]
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|text = It was proposed in this section that [[:2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike]] be [[Wikipedia:Moving a page|renamed and moved]]&#32;to {{no redirect|27 September 2024 Beirut attacks}}.
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The discussion has been closed, and the result will be found in the closer's comment.
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<div class="floatleft" style="font-size:75%">''Move logs: [{{fullurl:Special:Log/move|page={{Urlencode:2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike}}}} source title]{{·}} [{{fullurl:Special:Log/move|page={{Urlencode:2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike}}}} target title]''</div>
<div class="floatright" style="font-size:65%">''This is template {{tls|Requested move/end}}''</div>
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[[:2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike]] → {{no redirect|27 September 2024 Beirut attacks}} or '''[[27 September 2024 Beirut attack]]''' – While Israel states it only targeted the Hezbollah headquarters, several RS say the attack lay waste to "Several apartment blocks"[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/27/israel-air-attack-beirut-lebanon-hezbollah-hassan-nasrallah] or "multiple high-rise apartment buildings"[https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/israel-hezbollah-headquarters-beirut-lebanon-strike-1.7336237]. Given such an immense destruction of civilian infrastructure, we should not put Israeli claims that this was a "precise strike" on just the Hezbollah HQ in wikivoice (violation of [[WP:POVTITLE]]]), and instead pick the most neutral title. '''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>(Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply)</sub> 21:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''', the suggested title is empty of meaning. A more relevant move would be to '''attempted assassination of Hassan Nasrallah''' or something similar [[User:Galamore|Galamore]] ([[User talk:Galamore|talk]]) 22:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
::Had the attack only killed/injured Nasrallah and those close to him, I'd have agreed with you. But the amount of collateral damage is immense and reducing it to one person, is quite POV. Also, there is precedent: consider the [[1981 Iraqi embassy bombing in Beirut]] whose stated target was Iraqi PM [[Tariq Aziz]] or the [[Brighton hotel bombing]], whose stated target was British PM [[Margaret Thatcher]].'''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>(Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply)</sub> 22:59, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
*Consider the Israeli attempt to assassinate [[Muhammad Deif]]. The article is called [[13 July 2024 al-Mawasi attack]], [[Talk:13 July 2024 al-Mawasi attack#Requested move 13 July 2024|based on consensus]] on the talk page. That event killed 90+ people and injured 300+, and it is quite likely that the death toll for this event might be similarly high.'''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>(Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply)</sub> 23:02, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Support''': the proposed move strikes me as in line with existing practice, the wording in RS, and neutrality. [[User:AntiDionysius|<span style="color:green">AntiDionysius</span>]] (<span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User talk:AntiDionysius|talk]]</span>) 23:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
::<small>{{ping|AntiDionysius}}, fyi, I have changed the proposed title from "27 September 2024 Beirut attack" to "27 September 2024 Beirut attacks" (notice the plural).'''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>(Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply)</sub> 01:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</small>

*'''Oppose''' with multiple additional attacks on Beirut weapons storage locations in the evening of the same day, but not on Hezbollah HQs, a better title might have to be the [[27 September 2024 Beirut attacks]] (plural, not singular).  This is going to take a few days to sort out what all these multiple attacks did, and how many Hezbollah & Iranian operatives may have been targeted in the attacks, before a [[WP:COMMONNAME]] can really be chosen for the longer term.  [[User:N2e|N2e]] ([[User talk:N2e|talk]]) 00:04, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
::You're right about the plural: "{{tq|The series of massive explosions sent huge clouds of smoke soaring above the densely populated Haret Hreik neighbourhood in Dahiyeh, southern Beirut, around dusk on Friday.}}"[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/9/27/several-explosions-in-beirut-as-israel-says-it-attacked-hezbollah-hq] [https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240927-terror-panic-as-israeli-strikes-wipe-out-beirut-buildings France24]'s headline is also "{{tq|Terror, panic as Israeli strikes wipe out Beirut buildings}}". I'll change it.'''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>(Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply)</sub> 01:42, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
::That can be its own thing, the most notable thing here is the killing of Nasrallah, and that needs its own article. [[User:Personisinsterest|Personisinsterest]] ([[User talk:Personisinsterest|talk]]) 13:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' This particular, single strike is going to be the notable one among many others which are part of the wider conflict. [[User:Ultimograph5|Ultimograph5]] ([[User talk:Ultimograph5|talk]]) 03:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
::@[[User:Ultimograph5|Ultimograph5]] can you clarify? It seems there were multiple strikes in the same location. For example, France24 [https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20240927-terror-panic-as-israeli-strikes-wipe-out-beirut-buildings says] "The strike'''s''' killed at least two people and injured 76, Lebanon's health ministry said in a preliminary toll." Notice the plural.'''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>(Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply)</sub> 03:57, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
:::@[[User:Vice regent|Vice regent]] I suppose the word "strike" is confusing, France24 seems to be defining "strike" as one bomb while I was referring to the whole event which lasted like a minute. My definition is in line with other articles like [[Israeli airstrike on the Iranian consulate in Damascus]] but I'm not sure there's any standard [[User:Ultimograph5|Ultimograph5]] ([[User talk:Ultimograph5|talk]]) 04:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
::::@[[User:Ultimograph5|Ultimograph5]] to clarify then, you'd be ok with "27 September 2024 Beirut attack" as opposed to "27 September 2024 Beirut attacks"? '''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>(Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply)</sub> 04:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*<del>Support, it is not even confirmed he was killed yet. Also, given the nature of the bombings (attacking apartment blocks), it might be best to go with "attack" same as [[13 July 2024 al-Mawasi attack]] as noted above. &lt;/[[User:MarkiPoli|MarkiPoli]]&gt; &lt;[[User_talk:MarkiPoli|talk]] /&gt;&lt;[[Special:Contributions/MarkiPoli|cont]] /&gt; 08:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)</del>
::Now that it is confirmed he is dead, it still matters that potentially hundreds are dead from airstrikes on apartment blocks in a densely populated suburb. This article probably should just be called '''Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah''' (as it actually was when I first replied, IDK why), as I can't think of a not-unwieldy title that incorporates the civilian casualties in it, however we should have another article that goes in depth on the potentially hundreds dead.&lt;/[[User:MarkiPoli|MarkiPoli]]&gt; &lt;[[User_talk:MarkiPoli|talk]] /&gt;&lt;[[Special:Contributions/MarkiPoli|cont]] /&gt;
*'''Support''' per above. We did not call Deif's attempted assassination "attempted assassination of Mohammed Deif". <span style="font-family: Courier New; background-color: green; padding: 2px 3px 1px 3px;">[[User:Twistedaxe|<span style="color: yellow">TwistedAxe</span>]] [[User talk:Twistedaxe|<span style="color: navy">[contact]</span>]]</span> 10:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
::Killing is confirmed now but still think we need a separate article on the bombings. [[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]] ([[User talk:Selfstudier|talk]]) 11:53, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
:::I think this should be its own standalone article too, yes. Although I think we can incorporate both the attack and the assassination in the same article perhaps? Otherwise two separate articles are okay too IMO. <span style="font-family: Courier New; background-color: green; padding: 2px 3px 1px 3px;">[[User:Twistedaxe|<span style="color: yellow">TwistedAxe</span>]] [[User talk:Twistedaxe|<span style="color: navy">[contact]</span>]]</span> 11:55, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Strong oppose''' he is dead. No need for more ambiguity which is not in line with alike articles [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 12:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Strong oppose''', even if civilians were killed in the attack, absolutely the most notable thing here is that Nasrallah has been assassinated, confirmed by Hezbollah.[https://www.barrons.com/news/hezbollah-confirms-leader-nasrallah-s-death-c942b7a5] [[User:Personisinsterest|Personisinsterest]] ([[User talk:Personisinsterest|talk]]) 12:04, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Strong supporrt''' Wikipedia should not adopt a belligerent's rationale in the title for an attack that seems likely to have killed dozens [[User:Zellfire999|Zellfire999]] ([[User talk:Zellfire999|talk]]) 12:16, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Move''' to [[Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]] – With his assassination confirmed, it is now a forgone matter that the most notable event within the scope of this article, and the name by which this event will be known is as the assassination of [[Hassan Nasrallah]]. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue;">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366;">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 13:11, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
::Note: This was actually the title of the article when I first !voted, did someone move it and then it got reverted whilst this RfC was going on? &lt;/[[User:MarkiPoli|MarkiPoli]]&gt; &lt;[[User_talk:MarkiPoli|talk]] /&gt;&lt;[[Special:Contributions/MarkiPoli|cont]] /&gt; 13:16, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
:::Yes, the page was moved by a new user. We could just revert that but best to just let the RM work itself out. It appears we are approaching SPEEDY. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue;">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366;">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 22:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Move''' to Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah – agreed, this is the major event and the relevant title. [[User:Afdshah|Afdshah]] ([[User talk:Afdshah|talk]]) 06:24, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Move''' to [[Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]], per Coffeeandcrumbs above. This is the single most notable and significant aspect of this event, and is commonly described as such by RS. [[User:ABHammad|ABHammad]] ([[User talk:ABHammad|talk]]) 13:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Move''' to [[Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]]. I'm the creator and I used the current name 2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike since this is what was known at the time of creation. The specific date + place title is bad 'cause it says nothing on the real topic here. Now that all related parties confirmed he is dead I think that's the main topic in this article and the title should mention that. [[User:EnfantDeLaVille|EnfantDeLaVille]] ([[User talk:EnfantDeLaVille|talk]]) 13:51, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Rename''' [[Killing of Hassan Nasrallah]], in line with [[Killing of Osama bin Laden]]. To characterize it as an assassination is reflective of a minor point-of-view. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 14:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*:@[[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] can you explain the difference? [[User:OdNahlawi|OdNahlawi]] ([[User talk:OdNahlawi|talk]]) 15:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*::My personal opinion is that assassinations are politically motivated, and Nasrallah was a terrorist combatant, not a political target. The Wikipedia-based reason is that the majority of reliable sources appear to not use the A-word in their coverage, except to note that like-minded (to Nasrallah and his cause) individuals and groups may refers to it as that. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 20:58, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*:::See [[WP:DEATHS]]. ---&nbsp;[[User talk:Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:blue;">C</span>]]&amp;[[Special:Contributions/Coffeeandcrumbs|<span style="color:#663366;">C</span>&nbsp;(]][[User:Coffeeandcrumbs|Coffeeandcrumbs]]) 22:23, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*::::Interesting that you link to something that your own vote above does not adhere to. [[User:Zaathras|Zaathras]] ([[User talk:Zaathras|talk]]) 22:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*:::The [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/world/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-hamas/here-are-the-latest-developments-on-strikes-in-lebanon NYTimes]: {{xt|The assassination, which Israel said hit the Iranian-backed militia’s underground headquarters, was a stunning escalation of Israel’s campaign against Hezbollah in a conflict that has gone on for nearly a year.}}[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/28/israel-says-it-has-killed-hezbollah-leader-hassan-nasrallah The Guardian] repeatedly calls it an assassination. [https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c5yj7r029yyo BBC]: {{xt|Israel’s assassination of Hassan Nasrallah, the long-standing leader of Hezbollah, is a major escalation in its war with the Lebanese militant group.}}<p>The claim that {{tq|the majority of reliable sources appear to not use the A-word in their coverage, except to note that like-minded (to Nasrallah and his cause) individuals and groups may refers to it as that}} is completely made up. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' -  00:33, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Move''' to [[Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]] . It's a better name considering we can now confirm the death of [[Secretary-General of Hezbollah]] [[Hassan Nasrallah]]. Also, it's a much more recognizable name opposed to [[2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike|27 September 2024 Beirut attacks]] . [[User:TheFloridaMan|TheFloridaMan]] ([[User talk:TheFloridaMan|talk]]) 14:42, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Move''' to [[Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]] - and the claim that is a minor POV is emphatically untrue. Basically every story I see about this calls it an assassination, [https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/world/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-hamas NYT], [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/28/israel-says-it-has-killed-hezbollah-leader-hassan-nasrallah The Guardian], [https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/09/28/hezbollah-israel-intelligence-pager-attacks-bombings/ Foreign Policy] for example all call it an assassination. Claiming it is a minor point-of-view is something that requires substantiation, not just bald assertion. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' -  15:24, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Move''' to [[Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]], this is why this airstrike was worth an article in the beginning, and after the confirmation that would be the most precise way to describe the event. [[User:OdNahlawi|OdNahlawi]] ([[User talk:OdNahlawi|talk]]) 15:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Move''' to [[Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]], per what was said above and the example of [[Assassination of Ismail Haniyeh]]. — [[User:Sundostund|<b><span style="color:green">Sundostund</span></b>]] [[Manu propria|<span style="color:green">''mppria''</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Sundostund|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Sundostund|contribs]])</sup> 17:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' as proposed, '''neutral''' on [[Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]], as the attack was aimed at Hezbollah headquarters and Nasrallah. It's perfectly true that civilian infrastructure was also destroyed, but that was a necessary and undesirable side-effec resulting from Hezbollah making their headquarters under said civilian infrastructure. [[User:Animal lover 666|Animal lover]] [[User talk:Animal lover 666|&#124;666&#124;]] 22:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' as proposed as it far less clear what the attack was about. As for "Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah" that's somewhat better than the proposed yet still inferior to the present name. As I understand it, this was an attack on the entire Hezbollah leadership. [[User:Gidonb|gidonb]] ([[User talk:Gidonb|talk]]) 01:26, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Move''' to [[Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]] in line with Ismael Haniyeh and other notable figures. [[User:DeadlyRampage26|DeadlyRampage26]] ([[User talk:DeadlyRampage26|talk]]) 09:29, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
*'''Move''' to Assassination since the attacks in Lebanon generally, including the one here, are being dealt with at [[September 2024 Lebanon strikes]] [[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]] ([[User talk:Selfstudier|talk]]) 09:38, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Support''' 27 September 2024 Beirut attacks, since more than the intended target were killed. This also meets [[WP:NCWWW]]. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 09:51, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Support move'''  to [[Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]]. A bombing attack or any kind of hit that kills and injures many people among whom ''happened to be'' a well known military, political, ideological person could never be named "assassination [of that person]". Here, however, the [[WP:RS|overwhelmingly evident]] target was one single person, Nasrallah, a fact confirmed by both sides; no one argued that his death was incidental to a bombing attack against Beirut. What it all [[WP:V|quite clearly]] came down to was an <u>organized attack against the life of one specific person</u>, an assassination effort that also resulted in a significant number of collateral casualties. This was an assassination, albeit a very bloody one. We should make of "2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike" a Redirect to the [[Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]]. -[[User:The Gnome|The Gnome]] ([[User talk:The Gnome|talk]]) 11:46, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Support''' [[Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]], the main argument against this is the fact that other militants were killed, but [[Assassination of Rafic Hariri|assassination of Rafiq Hariri]] had multiple other officials killed as well. [[User:Prodrummer619|Prodrummer619]] ([[User talk:Prodrummer619|talk]]) 11:49, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Snow close''' and '''move''' to [[Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]]; the original rationale makes no sense anymore after the current news. [[User:PhotographyEdits|PhotographyEdits]] ([[User talk:PhotographyEdits|talk]]) 15:17, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''': the attack was to Hezbola, not to Beirut. That's the focus of all news headlines. [[User:Cambalachero|Cambalachero]] ([[User talk:Cambalachero|talk]]) 15:38, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Strong Oppose''': Per above comments. [[User:Spilia4|Spilia4]] ([[User talk:Spilia4|talk]]) 23:13, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Oppose'''. as proposed. '''Weak support''' [[Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]] per above comments. [[User:Estar8806|estar8806]] ([[User talk:Estar8806|talk]]) [[Special:Contributions/Estar8806 |★]] 01:08, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Strong Oppose''': ''2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike'' is a good and appropriate title. The target was Hezbollah, Nasrallah and his subordinates. [[User:AideDésintéressée|AideDésintéressée]] ([[User talk:AideDésintéressée|talk]]) 02:30, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' - no reliable sources that I'm aware of are actually disputing the stated Hezbollah targets. Damage to many buildings doesn't imply much about what the targets were. The neutrality argument seems based on a hypothetical controversy about targeting which hasn't actually occurred. Also '''oppose''' [[Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]] - my understanding is that assassination doesn't have a standard definition in IHL, but generally implies unlawful killing. A title focused on Nasrallah could make sense, but I would suggest [[Killing of Hassan Nasrallah]], which seems more clearly accurate and neutral while also matching [[Killing of Osama bin Laden]] etc. '''Edit''': Neutrality and others convinced me that the current title is best, rather than a narrower title about Nasrallah. The same strike killed [[Ali Karaki]] and [[Abbas Nilforoushan]]. I don't see a reason to further narrow the scope, which is already limited to one specific strike. — [[User:XDanielx|<span style="font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold; color: green;">xDanielx</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:XDanielx|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/XDanielx|C]]</sub>\<sup>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/xDanielx|R]]</sup> 03:05, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
*:Why do you think it implies unlawful killing and what of the any number of reliable sources that has assassination? Who said this was an international law topic anyway? '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' -  03:57, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
*::I guess there's plenty of precedent for both in reliable sources. Most sources seem to say both "assassination" and "killing" at some point. I did notice [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/30/deep-intelligence-penetration-enabled-israel-to-kill-hassan-nasrallah] [https://www.npr.org/2024/09/29/g-s1-25348/israel-hezbollah-lebanon-hassan-nasrallah-timeline] [https://www.npr.org/2024/09/29/g-s1-25322/biden-nasrallah-hezbollah-israel] which say "killing" only; I didn't notice any which say "assassination".
*::It seems prevalence leans slightly toward "killing". I still feel "killing" is preferable since it's unquestionably precise, whereas there could be questions about whether "assassination" is precise. Is there a particular concern with "killing"? — [[User:XDanielx|<span style="font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold; color: green;">xDanielx</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:XDanielx|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/XDanielx|C]]</sub>\<sup>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/xDanielx|R]]</sup> 04:53, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
*:::Precision. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' -  09:44, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
*:My understanding is that assassinations are only illegal under national laws, but not always illegal under international law. In this case, I highly doubt it was legal under Lebanese law to kill Nasrallah. If you want examples of articles called "assassination" when they targeted the leader who was at war, here are some: [[Assassination of Rajiv Gandhi]], [[Assassination of Ismail Haniyeh]], [[Assassination of Lord Mountbatten]], [[Assassination attempts on Volodymyr Zelenskyy]], [[Assassination attempts on Adolf Hitler]] etc. '''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' <sub>(Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply)</sub> 05:10, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
*::There does seem to be plenty of precedent for both, both in the media and in related article names. Do you have a particular concern with "killing" though? Unless there's some problem with it, I think we should prefer the name whose accuracy is beyond doubt. — [[User:XDanielx|<span style="font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold; color: green;">xDanielx</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:XDanielx|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/XDanielx|C]]</sub>\<sup>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/xDanielx|R]]</sup> 18:08, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
*:::What source is doubting the accuracy of ''assassination''? I have seen none questioning it. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' -  18:24, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
*::::Well, AFAIK there's simply zero analysis in reliable sources of what language most precisely describes this particular subject. So that doesn't favor any particular name, it just means that we're on our own here. So yes, my argument is original research, but original research is okay in naming discussions, and is often unavoidable.
*::::Let me elaborate on what my OR argument is. While I don't believe there's any formal legal definition, this [https://lieber.westpoint.edu/assassination-law-of-war/ article] by [[Michael N. Schmitt]] can help us see how "assassination" is generally understood in the context of armed conflict specifically (rather than peacetime assassinations). Schmitt defines an assassination as a "treacherous" and "perfidious" killing; it's not clear Nasrallah's killing fits that.
*::::I'm sure there can be arguments that Schmitt's definition is not universal, or that perhaps Nasrallah's killing was in fact perfidious, or what not. But this seems like a good enough reason to prefer "killing", the accuracy of which is beyond question. — [[User:XDanielx|<span style="font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold; color: green;">xDanielx</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:XDanielx|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/XDanielx|C]]</sub>\<sup>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/xDanielx|R]]</sup> 19:53, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
*:::::What source disputes Nasrallah specifically was assassinated? Not what source do you feel defines the term to not include what you feel happened. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' -  23:27, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
*::::::As I said we're on our own here, and must use original arguments, as there's no reliable source (as far as I'm aware) which takes any explicit position on what language is most appropriate to describe the event. That doesn't weigh in favor of either name. — [[User:XDanielx|<span style="font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold; color: green;">xDanielx</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:XDanielx|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/XDanielx|C]]</sub>\<sup>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/xDanielx|R]]</sup> 01:17, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::no, that makes no sense. If several reliable sources outright say he was assassinated and no source disputes that then on Wikipedia it is a fact that he was assassinated. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' -  01:25, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::It seems like you're trying to invoke [[WP:V]] here, but in naming discussions we evaluate arguments on their merits, not based on the technicalities of content policies which we're not bound to here.
*::::::::I would argue that Schmitt's in-depth expert analysis of the term "assassination" carries much more weight. Journalists' use of a word in passing, with no discussion of its meaning, isn't compelling evidence that the usage was precise and not subtly wrong.
*::::::::In any case, your argument cuts both ways, with at least as many sources using "killing", so it doesn't weigh in either direction. — [[User:XDanielx|<span style="font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold; color: green;">xDanielx</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:XDanielx|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/XDanielx|C]]</sub>\<sup>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/xDanielx|R]]</sup> 04:22, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::all assassinations are killings, so no that doesn’t cut both ways, and absent any source that disputes this was an assassination it is an undisputed fact that it was an assassination. And no, a 2021 article has literally nothing to do with this article or its title. The idea that an RM has nothing to do with what the sources actually say and can instead revolve around editors individual views on esoteric topics loosely related to the article is not one I can really wrap my head around, so I’ll stop trying to. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' -  12:52, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' suggested title, but '''okay with moving''' to Assassination/Killing of Nasrallah [[User:Poketape|poketape]] ([[User talk:Poketape|talk]]) 06:27, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

* '''Oppose''' any moving. The strike was on the headquarters, and is a significant event in and of itself. There is nothing to stop other pages from linking to this page with a different heading, or to put in a redirect, but the strike was on the headquarters. This wasn't a sniper on a grassy knoll somewhere. [[User:TimeEngineer|TimeEngineer]] ([[User talk:TimeEngineer|talk]]) 07:22, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
::Nope. The strike was indeed on a specific place but the ''stated'' target, [[WP:V|per sources]], was a specific person: Namely, Nasrallah. One can trivially locate numerous statements by the Israeli government and the IDF explicitly and clearly confirming this. You will find not one single claim to the effect that the attack targeted Beirut in general or the Hezbollah headquarters in general. None, and we cannot have an article bearing a title that is not supported at all by our sources. On the other hand, we have a plethora of sources stating that this was an operation planned and executed to '''assassinate Nasrallah'''. (And [[Assassination of John F. Kennedy|there was no sniper on the grassy knoll]]). -[[User:The Gnome|The Gnome]] ([[User talk:The Gnome|talk]]) 19:55, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
:::For the record, [https://www.timesofisrael.com/thousands-sleep-outdoors-in-beirut-flee-as-israeli-strikes-target-hezbollah-sites/ ToI] did write {{tq|Israeli strikes targeted the Hezbollah military headquarters}}. They don't explicitly attribute that to the IDF, so maybe it's just their interpretation. The majority of sources do seem to describe Nasrallah as the (purported) target. — [[User:XDanielx|<span style="font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold; color: green;">xDanielx</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:XDanielx|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/XDanielx|C]]</sub>\<sup>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/xDanielx|R]]</sup> 04:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
::::The statements made by Israeli members of the government along with the statements made by [[Herzi Halevi|IDF's Chief of the General Staff]] are quite clear and leave no doubt or uncertainty about the intended target.  -[[User:The Gnome|The Gnome]] ([[User talk:The Gnome|talk]]) 10:07, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''': per above comments. [[User:Davisonio|Craig Davison]] ([[User talk:Davisonio|talk]]) 16:47, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
* '''Strong oppose''' original RM, '''support''' moving to [[Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]]; The suggested title focuses on civilian casualties, unlike most sources -- a potential breach of [[WP:NPOV]]. The current title is fine in that sense, but isn't the most important part of this event (what's more important: that Nasrallah was killed, or that the strike hit Hezbollah headquarters in 2024?), and is ambiguous with countless other Israeli strikes on Lebanon, even if this is the only one that hit Hezbollah HQ directly. [[User:RatherQueerDebator|RatherQueerDebator]] ([[User talk:RatherQueerDebator|talk]]) 20:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
* '''Oppose'''. Even one of the sources mentioned by u:VR in his initial statement calls it [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/27/israel-air-attack-beirut-lebanon-hezbollah-hassan-nasrallah a bid to kill Hezbollah leader]. More sources have been provided by other editors, for example u:Personisinsterest. [[Killing of Hasan Nasrallah]] could be an option but I'd like to see a case made for it. If many more Hezbollah militants were killed then the current title is better. [[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]]<sub>[[User_talk:Alaexis|¿question?]]</sub> 20:36, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
::Many more Hezbollah militants were indeed killed. Yet, this was an operation intended to kill Nasrallah, a fact overwhelmingly [[WP:V|supported]] by [[WP:RS|sources]]. The current title, as well as the suggested alternative title in this RfC, are both '''misleading''' in that they ignore what ''all'' officials of Israel, Iran, Lebanon, as well as ''all'' media are stating. These titles present the event as some random bombing operation  that ''happened'' to kill Nasrallah and other militants. But that is not what went down. -[[User:The Gnome|The Gnome]] ([[User talk:The Gnome|talk]]) 18:35, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' any move - current title seems fine, and well-reflected in the sources. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]<sup>[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]</sup> 20:47, 2 October 2024 (UTC)
::It is the opposite of "fine." All the media has presented and keeps reporting on the operation having front and center the image of Nasrallah. What is well-reflected in the sources is the fact asserted by everyone concerned, i.e. Israel, Lebanon, Iran: An operation targeting Nasrallah. It's downright silly to be even debating this. -[[User:The Gnome|The Gnome]] ([[User talk:The Gnome|talk]]) 18:38, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
:::*Nobody disputes that Nasrallah was the principal target. But many other senior Hezbollah leaders were also killed; the airstrike was on the gathering at headquarters. "Assassination of..." (to my ears at least) implies a strike at one or a small number of people. [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]<sup>[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]</sup> 20:54, 3 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::[[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]], imagine this: Suppose [[Lee Harvey Oswald]], instead of using that Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in [[Dealey Plaza]] to kill [[JFK]], had fired an automatic weapon at the president when the whole entourage was coming off the plane. Further imagine that his spray of fire had taken out not just the president but also [[Jackie Kennedy]], governor [[John Connally]], and many other dignitaries present. A veritable massacre; but job done. Now, aside from how [[WP:COMMONNAME|all the media denotes the Israeli operation as targeting Nasrallah]], how would you title the report from Dallas in my example? "JFK assassinated/killed" or "1963 gunfire attack in Dallas airport"? -[[User:The Gnome|The Gnome]] ([[User talk:The Gnome|talk]]) 12:22, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::: It's an interesting counterfactual, but not really relevant. The situation really requires far less creativity. There are two possible titles, which for shorthand I'll describe as ''A'' ([[2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike]]) and ''B'' ([[assassination of Hassan Nasrallah]]). Both ''A'' and ''B'' (1) are factually accurate and (2) have substantial support in the sources (although I'll note that terms like "airstrike" and "headquarters" are used in virtually every source, while the specific word "assassination" is used in just a subset). And both titles are in fact are inseparable ([https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-israel-hezbollah-airstrikes-suburb-617575d9c5d7c711bc02e7b81d2ba4ad Associated Press]: "The Israeli military ... struck Hezbollah's headquarters ... in a series of massive explosions that targeted the leader..."). Under these circumstances, where ''A'' is inclusive of ''B'', it makes good sense to go with the slightly broader title rather than the narrower title. (This seems especially appropriate when the strike is not a random one-off, but part of a larger [[Decapitation (military strategy)|decapitation strategy]].) [[User:Neutrality|Neutrality]]<sup>[[User talk:Neutrality|talk]]</sup> 19:05, 4 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::::The comparison with another, more famous, assassination is not apt for casual dismissals, unless one chooses to avoid the trivial conclusion drawn from it. In almost every source under the sun, the words "killed", "assassinated", or even "taken out" (e.g. in ''[[Haaretz]]'', [https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-09-30/ty-article/.premium/even-after-taking-out-nasrallah-netanyahu-aims-to-ramp-up-assaults-on-all-fronts/00000192-3f6d-d823-abd2-7fef27810000 here]), are used. The sources that initially, i.e, before details about the target came out, titled their reports as "bombing", "attack", and the like, have ''all'' subsequently inserted in the title the name of the target and what was done to him. No party claimed, and especially not the Israelis, that this was a "decapitation" attack, either, in which ''by lucky chance'' Nasrallah was also killed. This was an attack on Nasrallah's life with collateral, human damage.
:::::::Now, at the moment, whether we move this article to "Killing of" or to "Assassination of Nasrallah" is unimportant. What is unacceptable, except as a burial of reality, is to keep the generic, uninformative titles of the RfC options, using the laughable argument that are all "factually accurate." Yep, and the title "Shots fired in Dealey Plaza, Dallas, TX" would be "factually accurate " on the JFK assassination. -[[User:The Gnome|The Gnome]] ([[User talk:The Gnome|talk]]) 11:56, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
::::::::But the circumstances of the events differ quite markedly. When JFK was shot, it didn't level buildings and kill dozens of other people. I don't think anyone here is motivated by an attempt to hide the fact Nasrallah was assassinated, but a title that focuses entirely on him doesn't do justice to the scale of the operation or casualties caused. I think that's the point being made. Neutrality is right that option A includes B, but B doesn't include A. Since the article's scope is necessarily broader than B, the [[WP:PRECISE]] name is the one that encompasses that scope. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 14:19, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
:::::::::I would honestly like to know which Wikipedia guideline or policy suggests that an article's title should be throwing the widest possible net and capturing ''all'' related events. (Note my correct use of hyperthetic: Suppose A is the title that encompasses events X1, ..., Xn. There will always be a title B for events X1, ..., Xn, Xn+1.) The killing of Rajiv Ghandi was achieved through a bombing that took the lives of sixteen people; yet, the article is correctly titled [[Assassination of Rajiv Gandhi]]. One could list a large number of articles like that. You are invoking [[WP:PRECISE]], which, wisely, asks that "titles should unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, ''but should be no more precise than that''." Emphasis added. Nowhere in that [[WP:POLICY|policy]] is a demand to have titles as inclusive as possible.
:::::::::The trivially evident direction is found in [[WP:COMMONNAME]]. '''Sources rule in Wikipedia'''. -[[User:The Gnome|The Gnome]] ([[User talk:The Gnome|talk]]) 15:37, 5 October 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Is there any indication that Rajaratnam intended to target any of the other sixteen people? If not, then the cases are not really comparable. — [[User:XDanielx|<span style="font-family: Arial; font-weight: bold; color: green;">xDanielx</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:XDanielx|T]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/XDanielx|C]]</sub>\<sup>[[Wikipedia:Editor review/xDanielx|R]]</sup> 14:10, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
::::::::::Gnome, arguably the quote you give supports my statement: "titles should unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but should be no more precise than that." An attack on the Hezbollah HQ is unambiguous. Narrowing it to Nasrallah is more precise in terms of being more specific, but less precise in that it doesn't define the topical scope of the article. So it's precision that isn't needed given that the scope of the article is broader than that.
::::::::::I'm not arguing for a further broadening of the article, BTW—I don't agree with the OP's suggestion for a new title based on Beirut. But it should still describe the article as it currently is. That's why I think ''2024 Hezbollah headquarters attack'', or some variation thereof, is the better name. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 14:35, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' While I agree the name should be changed, I think it should be '''27 September 2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike''' [[User:NotQualified|NotQualified]] ([[User talk:NotQualified|talk]]) 16:37, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

*'''Move''' to [[2024 Hezbollah Headquarters airstrike]]. I find the name to be more inclusive of both the mentioning of the deaths of [[Hassan Nasrallah]] and the other Hezbollah Officials, especially given the fact that an IRGC Commander Died. Just a reminder to everyone that we had an article named [[2020 Baghdad Airport Airstrike]] before renaming it to [[Assassination of Qassem Soleimani]]; also soley discussing Nasrallah does not mention nor discuss the deaths of the other Hezbollah and IRGC Commander. A word of note is that the IRGC Commander Killed is of a similar rank to [[Zahedi]] in Syria as both are heads of foreign operations given both title and rank, so it is not a good idea to leave information out. It is vital to account facts from as many sources as possible. [[User:Personisgaming|Personisgaming]] ([[User talk:Personisgaming|talk]]) 02:05, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

:<small>Note: [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Lebanon|WikiProject Lebanon]], [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Death|WikiProject Death]], [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel|WikiProject Israel]], [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history|WikiProject Military history]], and [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Post-Cold War task force|WikiProject Military history/Post-Cold War task force]] have been notified of this discussion. [[User:Web-julio|Web-julio]] ([[User talk:Web-julio|talk]]) 03:47, 6 October 2024 (UTC)</small>

*'''Oppose nominated title; support move to ''2024 Hezbollah headquarters attack'' instead.''' This is unambiguous and meets [[WP:NCWWW]], since Nasrallah and all other casualties fit the scope of ''Hezbollah''. But the existing scope of the article is broader than Nasrallah alone, so ''Assassination of...'' is too narrow as per [[WP:PRECISE]]. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 14:41, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
*:What’s the source that this was Hezbollahs headquarters? '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' -  16:24, 6 October 2024 (UTC)
*::Are you kidding me? The article's current name contains the word "headquarters" w/ lots of references saying that it was a Hezbollah headquarters. [[User:The Mountain of Eden|The Mountain of Eden]] ([[User talk:The Mountain of Eden|talk]]) 20:32, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
*:::Yes, the current article title says that, but what sources actually say this was Hezbolllah's headquarters? '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' -  15:19, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
*::::[https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-israel-hezbollah-airstrikes-suburb-617575d9c5d7c711bc02e7b81d2ba4ad AP News] [[User:The Mountain of Eden|The Mountain of Eden]] ([[User talk:The Mountain of Eden|talk]]) 17:12, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
*:::::AP only supports that Israel says that’s Hezbollahs headquarters. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<span style="color:#C11B17;font-size:90%">nableezy</span>]]''' -  18:01, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
*::::::I didn't see that anybody is disputing it. [[User:The Mountain of Eden|The Mountain of Eden]] ([[User talk:The Mountain of Eden|talk]]) 00:41, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose:''' The airstrike was specifically targeted at the Hezbollah headquarters. The fact that nearby buildings were damaged (or even destroyed) does not mean that the headquarters was not the target. [[User:The Mountain of Eden|The Mountain of Eden]] ([[User talk:The Mountain of Eden|talk]]) 20:34, 7 October 2024 (UTC)
<div style="padding-left: 1.6em; font-style: italic; border-top: 1px solid #a2a9b1; margin: 0.5em 0; padding-top: 0.5em">The discussion above is closed. <b style="color: var(--color-error, red);">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.</div><!-- from [[Template:Archive bottom]] -->
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== Main image caption  ==

The caption should probably be "munitions" not "ammunition" describing [[GBU-31]] guided bombs. ☆ <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family: Papyrus">[[User:Bri|Bri]]</span> ([[User talk:Bri|talk]]) 04:35, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

:In my opinion, "bombs" is better than either of those words. See [[Special:Diff/1250341231 |this edit]]. [[User:The Mountain of Eden|The Mountain of Eden]] ([[User talk:The Mountain of Eden|talk]]) 21:12, 9 October 2024 (UTC)
::Agreed. "Bombs" is unambiguous. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 11:02, 14 October 2024 (UTC)

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