Talk:Worcestershire sauce

Intro

The intro says the sauce is "usually shortened to worcester" sauce. I have never seen it thus shortened. Is there reference for this? Misterjosh (talk) 20:49, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

"usually shortened" has been removed at some point in time -- User:D A Patriarche

I've typically only heard it called "worcester sauce" in conversation (because "worcestershire" is a bit of a mouthful) but it seems some food manufacturers do also use it on their packaging, eg: Tyrrells "Worcester and Sundried Tomato" flavour crisps and Walkers "Worcester Sauce" flavour crisps – Zarino (talk) 13:05, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

So they're calling two things by the wrong name, worchestershire AND chips.21:59, 18 October 2017 (UTC)~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.18.173.40 (talk)

No. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:06, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Worcestershire sauce and Worcester sauce both exist and are not the same thing. 31.52.253.68 (talk) 17:54, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Oh really? {{citation needed}}. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:06, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

What if you can not speak English? 2600:1700:772:A0:3050:1A70:B56A:D297 (talk) 00:56, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

The English say "wooster" sauce because that's how they pronounce Worcestershire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.190.159.204 (talk) 15:55, 25 March 2016 (UTC)

I'm native English speaker, live a few miles from Worcestershire and have worked in the county. And I have never heard a single person pronounce "Worcestershire" as "Worcester". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:06, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Andy's correct. Whatever it says on the label, it came from Worcester, as you say, and we know it as Worcester sauce. The addition of the -shire came from Americans of non-British origins simply reading it off the label and massively overcomplicating things.

Worcester has a truly large castle, from the high days of knights in armour, and is about the southern edge of the Midlands industrial region which was the birthplace of the Industrial Revolution. As a result, the locals are rarely minded to use four syllables when two will do. 5.70.112.105 (talk) 04:43, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Worcestershire Sauce is trademarked, competitors call their sauce Worcester sauce to avoid licencing issues - see Tyrrells & Walkers crisps as examples. Worcestershire sauce is the genuine, but everyone calls it Worcester sauce as it is easier to say. Ianmurray5 (talk) 00:31, 23 June 2016 (UTC) from Worcester, England

"Worcestershire sauce" was originally trademarked but trademark was overturned in the US in 1874 and in the UK by their high court in 1876. http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2013/10/worcestershire-sauce-called/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.68.140.13 (talk) 06:23, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Pronunciation: The text does not agree with the OGG (Listen) sound file. The OGG file does have "woostə" (as the primary pronunciation in fact), so I think we should include it in the written text. The second pronunciation in the OGG file is Woost-ə-shə; the OGG rendition I believe covers the main British (RP, non-rhotic) pronunciations. I don't believe the variant Woost-er-sheer is often heard for the sauce, so I am deleting it from the text in the interest of simplicity & clarity. If another editor wants the Standard American pronunciation(s) included I suggest adding a corresponding Listen file, as this is one of the most talked-about pronunciations I have encountered ;-) BTW, I have added most of the many (!) other variants to the Worcestershire article; in this article I'll confine myself to matching the text to the sound file. --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 11:44, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

The Cambridge dictionary shows non-rhotic /r/ as superscript 'r' in the IPA but WP IPAc template does not permit this; a pity, it's non-standard but intuitively clear. I've put "—(r)" in the Respell as a compromise. --D Anthony Patriarche (talk) 12:30, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

I've just been reading this page and I'm baffled by the fact that the common usage "Worcester sauce" is not mentioned anywhere. That was the search term I used to reach the page, and as a British reader it's the only term I've ever heard spoken, other than "Lea & Perrins". Yes, the correct written term is Worcestershire sauce. No, nobody pronounces Worcestershire and Worcester the same (one is the county and the other is the county town, and they sound exactly as different as Yorkshire and York). Are there two different things called Worcester sauce and Worcestershire sauce? No, not that anyone on here has given any evidence for. But have I ever heard anyone (even my grandparents born before the first world war) say "Worcestershire sauce"? Absolutely not. Almost everything on the internet is in written form, so it's unsurprisingly difficult to find references acceptable Wikipedia standards. But if we need an authority on the subject, refer to Nigella's tweet of 25 March 2016 where she says in answer to this very question "Well, Worcester sauce for me, for all that it's written Worcestershire". If you're not happy with that, Delia uses both versions in the same (written) recipe. Probably the two most famous British cookery writers, both universally known by just their first names. (OK, Heston gets close). It just doesn't make sense that this page doesn't even mention a term that's so universally known in spoken English. Arcman (talk) 20:21, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

yank here. i have never heard it called worcester sauce, so add my vote to those who think there is a US/UK divide on this. moreover, on Woost-ə-shə vs Woost-er-sheer i'd say most of us actually say "Woost-ə-sheer". or at least "Woost-ə-shər". even in the quickest of speech, i don't hear people dropping the final r. but that is not to say we'd put one on the "worcester" part. 2601:19C:527F:7890:C88E:3250:E49:8B7E (talk) 11:34, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Our personal experience is irrelevant (WP:OR). The OED records the usage "Worcester sauce" as an alternative, and Google ngrams shows that it was the majority form from 1870 to 1970 in the UK, whereas in the US, it has only been 10-20% of usage. Nowadays, Worcestershire is almost 90% of usage in the UK, and almost 100% in the US.

Of course, as Arcman pointed out, written sources (as used by Google ngrams) don't tell us how it's pronounced in practice. I get the impression that a lot of people around here (Boston area) call it Worcester sauce in speech, but I'm afraid I don't have a WP:RS for that. --Macrakis (talk) 21:20, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Listen to Delia on this video of her making gravy, at 3:37. Video is titled "Delia's Techniques - How to make Perfect Gravy", for some reason i cannot link to youtube from here. She uses the pronunciation of the town, dropping the 'shire' (as do all UK foodies I know). 82.18.36.40 (talk) 13:35, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

This is worth a listen if you're interested, although I've no idea what this person's credentials are. Summary: When referring to the sauce rather than the county, "Worcestershire" is pronounced as "Worcester". So the spelling is "Worcestershire sauce", but the pronunciation is "woostuh sauce". H Remster (talk) 17:41, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

Oriental sauces

User:Artoria2e5 reverted my edit, in which I deleted material about various oriental sauces.

My changes removed discussion of oriental "worcestershire sauce" variants that share little with Worcestershire Sauce, other than they are savoury.

Maybe we could simply mention that there are sauces made in the Far East, that call themselves worcestershire, but neither taste like Worcestershire Sauce, nor contain similar ingredients. Perhaps a separate page could be made for detailed discussion of these sauces. Maybe even a disambiguation page is appropriate. At the moment, this article discusses various sauces that are not similar, which means the term is ambiguous.

MrDemeanour (talk) 14:47, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I believe that singling these divergent version out in a subsection "Non-fish variations" is sufficient to distinguish these from more "proper" ones. They do taste like the W-sauce and contain similar ingredients in that they are generally sour and armoatic, with some being umami. I further argue that there is a continuum of "Worcestershire sauces" from the British original, to Western industrial imitations using some soy, to dietary-speciality (kosher-pareve, vegetarian/vegan) sauces with little or no fish, to Asian sauces; it would be messy if not impossible under OR to try and draw a line. Artoria2e5 🌉 01:39, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

I take your point about the veggie/vegan products. I contend that these are no more Worcestershire Sauce than vegetarian parmigiano is parmigiano; but they have a place in the article.

I'd be OK with a "non-fish variations" subsection. I'd prefer a separate article, because I'm concerned that these oriental variations will attract brand-promoters, so that the descriptions of the variants will grow to challenge the anchovy-based original, with pictures, links to manufacturers and so on. But rolling them into their own subsection is a reasonable compromise.

I'm willing to help build this subsection, but I'm not motivated to do the heavy lifting, because my preference is deletion. I don't think it's right for me to do major work on content describing products that I think don't belong. Basically I regard all these products as WS substitutes. I mean, Soy Sauce itself is a credible substitute for WS in cooking; but we don't list that as a type of WS.

Thanks for collaborating!

MrDemeanour (talk) 10:32, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

oriental sauces?!

geesh. i don't want be "that guy" here, but could we pls say "asian sauces"? "oriental" went out around 1975....

US version

i have rarely seen the paper-wrapped version; is this info still current?

"UK" version depicted looks pretty much like what we get here in our (US) supermarkets. 2601:19C:527F:7890:C88E:3250:E49:8B7E (talk) 11:37, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

I've only ever seen the paper-wrapped bottle in the US. 57.135.233.22 (talk) 09:28, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

ketchup?

ketchup or catsup originally referred to some watery BLACK sauce, the details of which i am unsure about. i figure either soy or worcestershire.

i thought this was all lost to the ages, but then i SAW a bottle so labeled in an asian market! i regret that i did not purchase it on the spot, b/c i've never seen one again.

any experts have insight as to which sauce "original ketchup" equates to? 2601:19C:527F:7890:C88E:3250:E49:8B7E (talk) 20:33, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

Modified Origins

I have deleted most of the text under "Origins" which goes on about garum and then claims sauces similar to Worcestershire went back to the 17th century - only to cite an NPR item about garum which says nothing about anchovies. I left the claim about such sauces going back to the 17th century, but it needs an actual source, not a misleading one. 2600:1700:8D40:9B60:E94E:8370:27DD:A402 (talk) 05:27, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I have

• Moved newest post on this talk page (the one above by user:2600:1700:8D40:9B60:E94E:8370:27DD:A402) to the bottom, as is customary
• Re-added a brief mention of Garum to the Origis section 8after all, anchovies are fish!)

Nø (talk) 09:00, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. That was a graceful solution. Need to be more careful about where I put my Talk comments.

Hopefully someone will source the 17th century claim. Will look around when I can.

2600:1700:8D40:9B60:7497:B896:960C:5442 (talk) 17:20, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I have added a note to clarify that there is no direct link with garum to modern fish sauces. Also, I see no evidence of a commercial fish sauce in the seventeenth century, but added a note about homemade sauces using anchovies.

2600:1700:8D40:9B60:7497:B896:960C:5442 (talk) 18:54, 25 January 2024 (UTC)