Talk:Iron diplomacy

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Evrik (talk) 15:46, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

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• Article history

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• ... that while they were travelling on the train to Kyiv, Emmanuel Macron, Olaf Scholz, and Mario Draghi were smiling when discussing the differences between their assigned accommodations? Source: https://archive.today/20220703225226/https://www.politico.eu/article/night-train-kyiv-scholz-draghi-macron-cabin-envy/
  • ALT1: ... that Oleksandr Kamyshin, the head of Ukrainian Railways who runs the iron diplomacy program that brings world leaders to Kyiv via rail, carries his gun and his son's stuffed owl with him? Source: https://archive.today/20220617025832/https://english.elpais.com/international/2022-06-01/resistance-on-rails-how-ukraines-biggest-employer-is-keeping-the-country-moving.html
  • Reviewed:
  • Comment: this is my first dyk nomination, so apologies if i have made any errors. any suggestions or advice is welcome.
    also, i was thinking of adding "for security" at the end of alt1 as an interesting play on the word "security", but was not sure if that would be considered wp:or.

Created by Dying (talk). Self-nominated at 23:53, 10 July 2022 (UTC).

• Welcome to DYK, Dying! Some things need tweaking. Thoughts below: Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 19:16, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

• The article is new enough and long enough. No QPQ is needed; first nomination. Earwig shows the only copyvio issus are common and unavoidable formulations.
• Hooks: I can't say I like ALT0. It feels a bit removed from the topic. I do like ALT1 in spite of its length. Suggesting an ALT2...

• ALT2 ... that Ukraine's iron diplomacy program, which brings world leaders to Kyiv via rail, uses carriages originally designed for tourism to Crimea?

• References: There are some bare URLs (URLs without citation templates). This is a holdup to DYK. In using templates like {{Cite web}} to replace them, please add links to the original pages instead of solely relying on archive.today mirrors (which can be linked in the |archive-url= parameter). In the future, you can add the articles from their original pages and then run a bot that archives their contents using the Internet Archive.

• Is there a news article, not merely a Telegram link, for ref [36]?

  Sammi Brie, thanks for the warm welcome! apologies in advance for the length of this comment; i am obviously still new at dyk.

  thanks for suggesting alt2; it has shown me that perhaps i was too focused on my own thoughts when i was drafting those blurbs. i had written alt0 because, when i was first reading about that trip, i saw this picture, which i really liked, and had wondered what the three were discussing that had put them in such a jovial mood. imagine my surprise when, while researching for this article, i stumbled upon this video, which i ended up linking to in the external media template. that being said, if you don't find the blurb to be on point, then my instinct on whether others will also find the blurb interesting is probably off.

  i like what you chose to highlight in alt2, but also agree with the point Radzy0 raised, so perhaps "carriages" in alt2 should be replaced by "a carriage". also, if alt3 is used, should ukraine be explicitly mentioned? i don't personally have a preference, but i know that tfa and itn blurbs often explicitly mentions countries, and i do not know what the dyk standard is. in any case, aside from that, i like both alt2 and alt3.

  i admittedly know virtually nothing about the bots used for the citation templates, and have been linking to web archives to avoid link rot. which bot would you suggest that i use? by the way, another editor was nice enough to add citation templates in this edit, but whatever was used appears to not work for urls whose most recent capture on web.archive.org returns an error, and the bare twitter url is an archive of a deleted tweet, while the washington post seems to be rejecting web.archive.org requests. will the bot work properly in such cases? regardless, for now, i commented out those sources to conform with dyk standards, since the tweet is actually superfluous (i had simply wanted to provide photographic evidence as well), and the washington post source is only used for a more recent death toll of the kramatorsk station attack.

Antony Blinken travelling to Kyiv by train

also, since my initial nomination, i have come up with an additional two blurbs that make use of the photos currently featured on the page, in case a blurb with a picture is preferred. i am pretty sure that both of these photos can be used on the main page as the first was released into the public domain by the u.s. department of state and the second by zelenskyy (or his office).

• ALT4 ... that U.S. secretary of state Antony Blinken (pictured) and U.S. secretary of defense Lloyd Austin left Kyiv by train hours before multiple railway stations in Ukraine were attacked? Source: https://archive.today/20220425204336/https://www.nytimes.com/live/2022/04/25/world/ukraine-russia-war-news

i am slightly worried about the image possibly being misleading since the blurb mentions the two leaving kyiv, while the picture shows blinken heading to kyiv. however, i could not find a picture taken on their trip out of ukraine (or one of austin on the train) on the source photostream. this picture is actually the only one i could find on commons showing a foreign leader on a train in ukraine during the invasion. (there is also one of blinken at a station.)

The first foreign delegation to Kyiv during the 2022 invasion

• ALT5 ... that the first foreign leaders (pictured) to visit Kyiv during the 2022 Russian invasion travelled by train in Ukraine in case Russia interpreted the use of a Polish military jet as an escalating move? Source: https://archive.today/20220703232801/https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60757157

i am not sure if i chose the best place to insert the "(pictured)" in that last blurb.

regarding your last point, the telegram source was only used to confirm that albanese did travel by rail, so i found this nta.ua article that can replace it. does wikipedia have any guidelines regarding the use of telegram as a source? admittedly, i believe this was my first time including a telegram source in an article, so i had only checked to make sure that its use followed the guidelines at wp:aboutself, being unaware of any other relevant concerns. i had decided to use this source because the photographic evidence the telegram source offers illustrates the subject of the article quite well, and as more leaders visit kyiv, finding reliable english sources that explicitly state that someone has travelled to kyiv by train appears to be getting more difficult, presumably since rail is now understood to be the default mode of transportation. of course, i have no problems replacing the telegram source with the nta.ua source above if i have inadvertently violated a dyk or wikipedia guideline, but leaving the telegram source in the article would make adding additional trips to the article much easier. dying (talk) 13:13, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

@Dying: Trying to parse this long comment, but I think we at least have an approvable page.

• I'm dropping consideration of my ALT2 in favor of Radzy0's ALT3 which is more precise and doesn't have the error I inadvertently introduced.
• I have fixed the remaining citation issues and restored the commented out sources.

• The bot does only work with the Internet Archive, but you can add archive.today archives to the template using the same parameters.
• The newly offered images appear to be freely licensed (#1 confirmed, #2 by consensus).
• ALT4 and ALT5 are fine.

• Telegram: The link to their Telegram channel probably inherits the reputation of Ukrzalinfo (which I now realize isn't a news site but an official account for the state railway), much like a YouTube video would. Honestly, they seem to use it like Twitter, too. Is there a way to link to specific posts like one might link to a tweet?
• Ticks are grantable for ALT1, ALT3, ALT4, and ALT5. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 17:22, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

  oh, that's great, Sammi Brie! many thanks for dealing with the citation issues i missed.

  yes, an individual post on telegram can be linked, like this. would this be preferable? at the time, i thought i could keep things simple if, whenever i wished to add an additional trip to the table, i could simply cite the same source again instead of cite a different post within the same channel. i have also since noticed that the relevant iron diplomacy posts are generally tagged with either #залізнадипломатія or #залізна_дипломатія, so those might be better sources to use. dying (talk) 08:59, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

• Comment : I like ALT2, but the article specifies only one carriage used for tourism, instead of multiple carriages as suggested by ALT2.

• ALT3 ... that one of the carriages used in the iron diplomacy program, which brings world leaders to Kyiv via rail, was originally used for tourism in the Crimean peninsula?

User:Radzy0 (talk) 21:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

• @Radzy0: I like this too and would definitely consider it once the other issues are resolved. (Pinging as this was unsigned) Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 22:32, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

• @Radzy0: Have the above issues been resolved? Z1720 (talk) 17:16, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Revision

I think this article was written by Kamyshin's PR team and needs a revision. Kowalmistrz (talk) 08:20, 10 March 2023 (UTC)