Talk:DeepStateMap.Live/GA1

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 14:50, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

Happy to review the article. AM

@Amitchell125: Thank you for taking up this review! I hope you find the topic interesting, and if there is anything that needs improvement or fixing, I'm more than happy to try to. Cheers! Johnson524 (Talk!) 02:51, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Review comments

Lead section / infobox

open-source intelligence online map If possible, move these two links apart (MOS:SOB).  Done - I unfortunately had to remove the "open-source intelligence" part as I didn't know how else to include it Put in for you. AM Deep State UA – is not an alternative name for the topic, and so should not be written in bold.  Done - I only did this originally since I made Deep State UA redirect here focuses primarily – primarily seems redundant here.  Done Link Russian (Russian Ground Forces); Ukrainian (Ukrainian Ground Forces); frontline.  Done Introduce Roman Pogorely and Ruslan Mykola here and in the main text – who are they apart from the creators of the online map?  Partly done - I honestly don't know the answer to this question. Aside from being two Ukrainian men interested in geopolitics to start Deep State UA in 2020, I don't think there were any sources I could find that says much more about them. To address this concern though, I removed their mention from the lede, as this is better explained below. near-daily updates –needs amending, as there have there been days when updates been made more than once a day.  Done Created the day of the invasion... – This sentence is an example of a run-on sentence. It is best sorted by making it into smaller ones.  Done - Should be, what do you think now? I've tweaked it, please check you're happy. Amitchell125 (talk) 05:54, 22 August 2023 (UTC) Looks great, thanks! Johnson524 (Talk!) cited by multiple Ukrainian and international media outlets – multiple is vauge-sounding, and is leaning towards being a peacock term (MOS:PEACOCK). Why not amend to something like ‘cited by Ukrainian and international media outlets such as Ukrainska Pravda and BBC News’ (I would cite this using https://www.pravda.com.ua/news/2022/04/26/7342244/; https://www.bbc.com/ukrainian/features-66334248).  Done run – ‘hosted’?  Done There is information in the lead section that does not appear in the main article, and needs to be: the map is interactive, 2.0 Deep State UA is non-governmental Partly done and volunteer-led, 1.3 the map focuses on the Russian invasion of Ukraine, 1.2 the map is frequently updated when new information becomes available, Lede &  3.1 the sinking of the Moskva. 2.0  Partly done - Ok, I was able to do each of the things listed except one, and that is state somewhere that the organization is non-governmental. I'm having trouble with this because I'm now seeing that this is not outright said in any of the citations I believe. We know that they are run by two men who have a team of 100 volunteers, and in the RFE citation, they refer to their name as non-governmental, so does this work? For the time being I have removed it, but I really think it should be stated if you think this mention is good enough. It works, and so the text can be put back in. AM  Done Johnson524 (Talk!) created - the main article's text says became active, are these two things meant to be the same?  Done The lead section needs to be expanded to ensure it is a proper summary of the main article. There needs to be information added about: the organisation’s original focus; the move away from using Google Maps; the maps’ characteristics; and sourcing.  Done - but will probably need further clean-up  Done Johnson524 (Talk!) More comments to follow. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:02, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

1.1 Deep State UA

Link messaging app (Instant messaging); map making (Cartography); admin (presumably System administrator).  Done the COVID-19 pandemic – the is used here, and so needs to be used with the other events listed in this sentence.  Done that would update – amend to something like ‘that could be updated’ to improve the prose.  Done ending with the fall of Kabul – is redundant text, and so should be deleted. Ditto gradually; full-scale; for their coverage and analysis of the conflict live as it unfolded.  Done Consider introducing Suspilne, as readers may not know what is being referred to here.  Done the organization – amend to ‘Deep State UA’ (for the sake of clarity).  Done - Clarified during an edit above ten thousand – consider amending to ‘10,000’ (MOS:NUMERAL).  Done In the caption, consider simplifying An older version of the map on 25 April 2022 in Ukrainian to ‘The map on 25 April 2022’.  Done At the beginning – 'During the beginning' sounds more correct.  Done The organization and its community helped to clarify and debunk misinformation that sprung up in the fog of war especially near the beginning of the invasion;[5] such as the false sinking - WP:VOICE states “Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts”. I would amend this to 'The map helped to refute claims about the sinking'.  Done

1.2 DeepStateMap.Live

Retitle this section to something like 'History', so that it does not match the title of the article itself.  Done Move the link to Google to where it first appears.  Done and was first – there needs to be new sentence started here ('It was first developed...').  Done However is redundant. Ditto on one of their sites; arose.  Done is not fully clear – needs rephrasing, as it may have been clear to Google.  Done it is believed - by whom? (MOS:WEASEL)  Done (often unconfirmed and often false) – it’s not clear why this is here. This is included because the frontline updates that users were complaining were not shown were unconfirmed, and often turned out to be false. Do you want me to rephrase this somehow? I would remove with the most current (often unconfirmed and often false) information as being a little excessively detailed Amitchell125 (talk) 06:13, 22 August 2023 (UTC)  Done Johnson524 (Talk!) Link hacker.  Done

1.3 Present day

Unlink headed (as per comment above).  Done Roman Pohorily and Ruslan Mykula - should both be referred to as ‘Pohorily' and 'Mykula’ from here onwards, as they have already been introduced.  Done You need to use their last names here, not their first names. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:20, 22 August 2023 (UTC)  Done - Oops, my bad Johnson524 (Talk!) Why arbitrarily?  Done - That was the wrong word, nice catch! October 2022, the map has been viewed more than 200 million times – if possible, this information should be updated, as the map was six months old at this date, and 10 months have now elapsed since then.  Not done - This really can't be updated since these statistics have not shared by them for some time. Looking at a website view counter like this one here, it says the map has only been viewed about 54 million times, so it's probably not accounting for a few variables for it to be this off. Do you want me to remove this claim? If you amend As of October 2022, the map has been viewed to something like 'By October 2022 the map had been viewed', the statement can then be retained. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:20, 22 August 2023 (UTC).  Done Johnson524 (Talk!) popular globally - “one of the most popular in the world among maps that follow Ukraine” is what Mykula is quoted as saying, which is not quite the same thing.  Done Done here but not in the lead section? Amitchell125 (talk) 06:20, 22 August 2023 (UTC)  Done Johnson524 (Talk!) There seems to be information about the app here from the Polish website Telepolis. Nice find! If you look at the article's history, I previously had a sub-section titled "versions" that talked about both the Apple and Android applications of the map, but removed it since there were only primary sources citing it. If I use this citation, do you think I should add this back?  Done - It is a little short though, should I merge this with the section above it? Johnson524 (Talk!) Makes sense, now done. Amitchell125 (talk) 05:07, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

1.3.1 Fundraising

This very small subsection could easily be absorbed into the subsection above it.  Done also – is redundant (here and elsewhere).  Done over 3 million hryvnias (US$81,277.02) in donations since beginning their collection – ‘a total of over 3 million hryvnias (US$81,277.02) in donations’ sounds better imo.  Done put towards providing various aid - simplify to ‘donated’?  Not done - Not really, because Deep State UA also have provided humanitarian and military (maybe, I forget) supplies as well. Besides listing this, because I'm not sure how consistent they are with is, I just summed this up into "various aid" Understood. AM

2 Map characteristics

Unlink English (common word); pathogen (the meaning is different here).  Done - but I don't think pathogen has a different meaning here, I think they are calling the Russians germs/a disease, which is in-line with their feature to display Russian units as pigs ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Understood, but the link went to the biological meaning, the insulting term would need to be included in that article for the link from here to be correct. AM An older version of the map on 25 April 2022 in Ukrainian, depicting the old color scheme – consider amending to ‘The 25 April 2022 version of the map, which used the original color scheme’.  Done ago – ‘previously’ MOS:RELTIME.  Done dark red areas – I'm unclear as to what areas are being referred to here.  Done

3 Sourcing

Consider amending various sources are used to put together the displayed map. These sources include to something like ‘sources that are used to put together the displayed map include’.  Done the elements of is redundant. Ditto alone.  Done "certain secure information" – who is being quoted here?  Done - I think the source itself? Unquoted. Due to prior propaganda and exaggerated claims – whose opinion is this?  Done putting together – ‘compiling’ sounds better imo.  Done

3.1 Factuality

A lot of the information in the article originates from interviews with the founders, can the quote in the box not be absorbed into the text as the others have been?  Not done - Personally, since this was an actual story told by one of the map admins about how they decide when to make their map factual or not, I thought this would not only provide information that would have to be summed to be put into the text, but also as a way to break up the walls of text. If possible, I'd like to keep it. Understood. However, I would consider moving the quote across to the rhs, so that readers read the main text before the quote, and the section below isn't pushed away by it. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:38, 22 August 2023 (UTC)  Not done - I'm sorry, it seems like an easy fix, but I don't know what rhs means 😅 Johnson524 (Talk!) 'right hand side', apologies. Amitchell125 (talk) 04:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC) Done. AM I’m unclear why the first sentence is included. Isn’t it true for any website?  Done It has been cautioned by the map's creators for this reason not to use the map – needs to be edited slightly to improve the prose.  Done where updating could - ‘where this could’.  Done or other - ‘or undertaking other’ is better English.  Done Why potentially?  Done such as in situations where Ukrainian forces take positions in areas Russian forces have not yet realized – is unclear.  Done Map admin Ruslan Mykula – ‘Mykula’.  Done Is Ruslan not his first name? Amitchell125 (talk) 06:38, 22 August 2023 (UTC)  Done Johnson524 (Talk!) This discusses in a more negative way the map from the point of view of a Ukrainian soldier, which may be of use.  Done - and nice find!

4 Media attention and use

map, military analysis, and other information created or collected – amend to ‘the information produced’?  Done 24 Kanal, Euromaidan Press, Forbes, Ukrainska Pravda, and Vot Tak – consider introducing each of these organisations, e.g. ‘the American business magazine Forbes’.  Done Imo and used is redundant.  Done Add a comma after Minister of Defense of Ukraine. Ditto Office of the President of Ukraine.  Done have also notably been – ‘have been’.  Not done - I don't want to remove the "notably", as many other organizations have talked about the map, but I have not included them now (see history and talk page for when I did include them) for mainly notability reasons. Of course, if you still want me to remove it, I will. Understood. AM The image is purely decorative, and should be removed.  Done - But it is kind of a wall of text at this part of the article, can you think of another image I can use here or nearby if possible? There probably isn't room because of the quote. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:58, 22 August 2023 (UTC) The map is not just used by the military – consider including something from here.  Done - and thanks!

5 See also
Consider adding some text beside each of the links to briefly explain what they are referring to.  Done

6 References

I am using WP:ABOUTSELF as a guide to say the sources used in the Primary subsection are acceptable. The citations are imo allowable because the text cited by them is uncontraversial, is about the map, and can be taken to be authentic. However: Ref 10 (griselda.com) is a dead link. Will run an internet archive after this edit, thanks for finding that! If it is not saved I'll remove it.  Done Johnson524 (Talk!) Ref 5 (Malyasov) – what makes you think this is a reliable source?  Done - Removed I’m unclear how Ref 18 (Twitter, 7 June 2022) cites the text.  Done - I got this citation from the Ukrainian language article. When you translate the message on the right, it is made by the Center for Countering Disinformation, but does not necessarily mention Deep State UA, just supports one of their claims. Removed! This any use?  Partly done - See '1.3 Present Day' section response

On hold

I'm putting the article on hold for a week until 22 24 August to allow time for the issues raised to be addressed. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 11:47, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

@Amitchell125: Alright, that should be everything 🙂 To make things easier to double-check (because of how long I took to do these corrections-I'm so sorry!), I have highlighted any questions/comments I have. If I did not make a highlighted response, it means that the correction is completed, and I should have fixed the issue. If I have marked something as "done" that you still don't think is, please notify we with what I could do differently and I'll see what I can do, no offense taken. Thank you again, and cheers! Johnson524 (Talk!) 19:06, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Johnson524, I should be able to respond to your questions tomorrow to help complete the review, many thanks for your work on the article. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:52, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

I've put small red crosses (N) to show comments that are still to be sorted, and crossed out where issues have been addressed. Completed section are collapsed. I've also extended the date so we can sort out the remaining issues, which don't look too difficulut. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 07:00, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I've finished (almost) all the final clean-up! To find my responses, look for my signature without the date "Johnson524 (Talk!)" under the request. There are only two remaining questions I have in the 1.2 and 3.1 sections, but other than that, I think we're good. Cheers! Johnson524 (Talk!) 22:47, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Passing

Passing now, great work. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 05:23, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.