W.E.B.

Du Bois Institute

After Genocide
Author(s): Philip Gourevitch and Paul Kagame
Source: Transition, No. 72 (1996), pp. 162-194
Published by: Indiana University Press on behalf of the W.E.B. Du Bois Institute
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2935367 .
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 ( Conversation

AFTER GENOCIDE
A conversation
with Paul Kagame

Philip Gourevitch
Paul Kagame is about six foot one and archist state, with an elite minority of
antenna-thin. His forehead is high and royal families and aristocrats, known as
his lean face is perfectly smooth. He has Tutsis, governing the peasant masses,
coppery skin and dark coppery eyes, known as Hutus. These categories were
which are heavy-lidded but sharp be- elastic;through intermarriage or shifts in
hind gold-wire glasses. In weak light, he social and economic standing, Hutus
could be mistaken for the young Kafka. could become Tutsis and Tutsis could
Kagame, who will turn forty this year, is become Hutus. There was no program-
married with two children and lives in matic "ethnic" violence between Hutu
Kigali, Rwanda's capital. He rides to the and Tutsi in precolonial Rwanda. The
Cercle Sportif, where he plays tennis, in country had one language and one so-
an armored Mercedes, flanked fore and cial and political culture, and anthropol-
aft by open trucks bristling with marks- ogists today reject the classification of
men, who take up positions around the Hutu and Tutsi as distinct ethnic groups.
kiosk of tennis courts. Major General Paul But according to the race-science of the
identification Kagame is, after all, the vice president European colonizers, the differences
photographs, part and minister of defense of the Republic were absolute. Tutsis, with their lean
of a UNICEF of Rwanda, and he is widely believed to builds and somewhat Ethiopian features,
program to identify have been one of the primary architects were presumed to be a Nilotic or "Ha-
and reunite lost of the rebellion that ended Mobutu Sese mitic" people, naturally superior to the
and/or orphaned Seko's dictatorial reign in Zaire. lumpen Hutus, whose more classically
Rwandan children
When Paul Kagame was born in "Negroid" looks got them classified as
with parents and
relatives
1957, Rwanda was still a colony of Bel- Bantus who deserved oppression. (Al-
gium, which had won the territory from though these physical archetypes have
UNICEF/
HQ95-0985/ Germany afterWorld War I. Precolonial some basis, they are notoriously unreli-
RadhikaChalasani Rwanda had for centuries been a mon- able for individual identification.) Under

162 TRANSITION ISSUE 72

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 Belgian rule, the issuance of ethnic iden- tion, Rwanda's Hutu revolution merely
tity cardsformalized the quasi-feudalistic reversed it. After independence, ethnic
relationship between Tutsi lords and quotas severely limited Tutsi oppor-
Hutu vassals into an apartheid-like tunities for educational, military, or
regime. Educational and administrative political advancement, and periodic
opportunities were reserved exclusively massacrespropelled a continuing stream
for Tutsis, and it became virtually im- of exiles. Efforts to negotiate a return
possible to change groups. were foiled by Rwanda's Hutu dictator,
A violent Hutu revolution broke out President Juvenal Habyarimana, a gen-
in Rwanda in I959, when Kagame, a eral of the Forces Armee Rwandaise
Tutsi, was two years old. Thousands of (FAR), who had seized power in I973.
Tutsis were massacred,and tens of thou- Arguing that Rwanda was already suf-
sands fled into exile. In I96I, the monar- fering from severe overpopulation,
chy was toppled, a new Hutu leadership Habyarimana declared in 1986 that
declared Rwanda a free republic, and as there was nothing to discuss with the
Hutu mobs torched Tutsi compounds exiles because there was simply no
on the hills around Kagame's home, his room for them in the country.
family fled to Uganda. He grew up A sizable number of refugees, like
in a refugee camp, attending Ugandan Kagame, had fought alongside Museveni
schools and excelling despite his refugee in Uganda; after the NRA's victory, they
status.After the overthrow of the Ugan- set their sights on Rwanda. The Rwan-
dan dictator Idi Amin by (Ugandan dic- dese Patriotic Front (RPF) was founded
tator) Milton Obote in 1981, Kagame in 1987 as a political and military orga-
was among the first group of men to nization with three primary objectives:
the abolition of the Rwandan dictator-
If I wanted to be a problem, I would ship, the return of the refugees, and the
establishment of a pluralisticgovernment
actually be a problem. I don't have to of national unity. Eager to distance
dance around weeping, you see themselves from the corrupt monarchists
of the colonial period, the original RPF
joinYoweri Museveni's National Resis- cadres, who were scattered throughout
tance Army (NRA) in its guerrilla war the diaspora, developed a nationalist
against Obote. Five years later,Museveni analysis of Rwanda's problems that re-
declared victory and ascended to the jected the ethnic divisions of the past as
presidency, and the twenty-nine-year- a colonial construct. Even today, RPF
old Major Kagame became his chief of members avoid using ethnic terms, pre-
military intelligence. ferring such euphemisms as "Rwandans
By the mid-Ig80s, the Rwandan di- in exile" or "Rwandans who committed
aspora numbered around one million the genocide." The RPF has consistently
people-a refugee population concen- presented its revolutionary struggle as
trated in central and east Africa, but one of national liberation for all Rwan-
with sizable communities in Europe and dans, although its critics dismiss its non-
North America. Instead of abolishing ethnic discourse as a cover for Tutsi as-
the colonial system of ethnic polariza- pirations to hegemony.

164 TRANSITION ISSUE 72

 Paul Kagame

Philip Gourevitch

The RPF emerged from underground calation of repressionagainst real and

on October I, I990, when four hundred perceived opponents of Habyarimana's
troops,led by Kagame'schildhood friend, regime,both TutsiandHutu.As the civil
Fred Rwigyema, launched a lightning at- war dragged on, advocates of "Hutu
tack on Rwanda from Uganda. Volun- Power"launcheda massivecampaignof
teers from Rwanda and the diaspora propagandaand violence, in which all
rushed to bolster the ranks of the fledg- TutsiswereconsideredRPF accomplices.
ling army. Rwigyema was killed in the Militiaswere organized,assassinationsof
first days of fighting, and Kagame, who political activistsand massacresof Tutsi
had been in the U.S. at the time in a civiliansbecame increasinglyfrequent,
military training program, deserted the and the radio and newspapersbegan to
Ugandan army and flew home to assume employthe thinlyveiledrhetoricof geno-
the RPF command. Despite being greatly cide.The Hutu extremistsoperatedwith
outnumbered, the RPF made significant impunity;they were well-representedin
advances until Habyarimanacalled on his Habyarimana'sinner circle, and as the
chief allies-France, Belgium, and Zaire regime of terrormounted,they consol-
-for backup. Although rebel gains were idated their grip on the nationalpower
limited to a small area in the north of the structures.
country, the fighting continued, and the The RPF never expected a full mili-
RPF's guerrilla war resulted in heavy tary victory; the objective was only to
civilian casualtiesand large-scale popula- force a politicalsettlement.In Augustof
tion displacement. 1993, after years of on-again, off-again
The RPF attack triggered a radical es- negotiations,they reachedtheir goal:a

AFTER GENOCIDE 165

A Rwandan girl,
peace accordwas signedat Arusha,Tan- yarimana'splane was shot down by
Wi-Barbara, age zania,which providedfor the returnof surface-to-airmissilesas he returnedto
12, on returning the refugees,the integrationof the RPF remainunidentified.
Kigali.His assassins
from the refugee
and the FAR, and the establishmentof a Within the hour,Hutu extremistsin the
camps in Zaire
transitional
governmentof nationalunity. FAR and the militiashad set up road-
UNICEF/
HQ96-0796/
A United Nations peacekeepingforce blocks throughout Kigali,and the sys-
RogerLemoyne (UNAMIR) wasdeployedto Rwandato tematic killing of prominentHutu op-
overseethe implementationof the agree- positionists had begun. Massacres of
ment.But Habyarimana, who hadsigned Tutsi civilians soon followed, and by
the dealunderpressurefrom Franceand mid-April,every organ of the statewas
other foreign patrons,kept postponing devoted to mobilizing the entire Hutu
the transition.
To his extremistentourage, population (about 6.5 million) to ex-
the Arushaaccordrepresenteda totalbe- terminate the entire Tutsi population
trayal.Their preparations for a genocide (about I.2 million).UNAMIR did no-
whipped into high gear, the president
and thing to stop the slaughter.By early
was given unmistakablenotice that his July, at least 800,000 Tutsis had been
own life was in danger. murdered.
On the evening of April 6, 1994, Hab- The RPF resumedfighting two days

166 TRANSITION ISSUE 72

 after the onset of the genocide. Kagame's The conversation that follows reflects
victory, two months later, resulted from four separate meetings with Kagame in
his total war strategy and disarrayin the his office at the Ministry of Defense in
FAR, which was distracted by the de- Kigali. During our first meetings-in
mands of the genocide. In June, France June 1995 and May I996-the issues
won Security Council approval to de- confronting post-genocide Rwanda re-
ploy a force to Rwanda, ostensibly in the mained essentially stable. The first part
name of humanitarianism, but it was of the conversation is drawn from these
quickly evident that the objective of encounters. By September of 1996,
"Operation Turquoise" was to support however, the ex-FAR and militias in the
and defend France's longtime Hutu al- camps were posing a much greater threat
lies. Under French cover, 1.5 million to regional security, and near-daily
Hutus-including government officials, guerrilla incursions into Rwanda had
the militias, and most of the members of plunged most of the western part of the
what had been the FAR-fled to Zaire country into a state of low-intensity war.
with much of their military apparatus The second part of the conversation ad-
intact. The U.N. and the international dresses these developments.
aid agencies responded to this new Shortly after the September conversa-
refugee crisis by establishing a vast net- tion, a rebellion broke out in eastern
work of refugee camps, which were Zaire; in just seven months, the forces of
quickly converted by the fugitive ex- Laurent Kabila conquered the country,
tremists into military bases for a contin- drove Mobutu into exile, and renamed
uing guerrilla war against Rwanda. Zaire the Democratic Republic of
Kagame has called the genocide "the Congo. The rebellion was widely un-
defining event in Rwandan history,"and derstood to have been engineered by
there is no disputing the claim. In July Rwanda. At first, Kigali denied involve-
1994, the RPF installed a new govern- ment but welcomed the outcome: the
ment in Kigali with Hutus in many high refugee camps were disbanded, and in
offices, but even in the seemingly mod- mid-November, after a decisive battle at
est post of vice president, Paul Kagame the Mugunga refugee camp outside
remains the country's most powerful po- Goma, some 600,000 refugees marched
litical figure. After the genocide, distrust back to Rwanda. This, along with the
between Hutus and Tutsis is deeper than closing of the camps in Tanzania,sparked
ever, but Kagame and his RPF col- a repatriation, culminating in the return
leagues maintain-against widespread of nearly 1.5 million Hutus from self-
skepticism-that they are making every imposed exile.
effort to combat the polarization of the With time, Rwanda's support for the
past. The demands of national reunifi- rebellion in Zaire became increasingly
cation, of national security, and ofjustice open, as other neighboring states, like
have presented the new leaders with an Angola and Uganda, made no secret of
extremely difficult balancing act. Ka- their own support. Kagame has re-
game is not only one of its chief archi- mained very much behind the scenes,
tects, he is also one of its most articulate but it is unarguable that the RPF's cam-
exponents. paign to stop the genocide in 1994 gave

AFTER GENOCIDE 167

birth to the army that brought 32 years on the outside for thirty years. Nobody
of Mobutism to an end. Within the talked about us. People forgot. They
Congo itself, Rwanda's role in the rebel- said, "Go to hell."
lion remains controversial.Hutu fighters Even during the war, everybody was
from the armies of genocide who did against us, except maybe Uganda, which
not return home in November fought was always being accused of helping us.
more vigorously for Mobutu than the But everybody else was on the side of
dictator's own soldiers, and it is widely Habyarimana, whether directly or indi-
reported that many of those Hutu rectly. This was a big problem. The
fighters and their families were ulti- French came in here and fought, and the
mately massacredin the Congolese hin- Belgians, and the Zairians.We saw our-
terland. The last part of this conversation selves fighting against the whole world
was conducted in November I996, one with our small war.
week after the mass return to Rwanda Nobody listens. You would explain
from the country then known as Zaire twenty-four hours a day and people
would not understand.They would look
June 1995 to September1996 at Kagame and they would say, "You
Tutsi, we know you are arrogant."But
PHILIP GOUREVITCH: You and
what does arrogance have to do with it?
many of your colleagues who created It's a question of people's rights. Do you
the RPF lived most of your lives outside
deny that I belong to Rwanda, that I am
Rwanda, and some of you even rose to
Rwandan?
positions of great prominence in exile. We came here. We overthrew the re-
Yet you have always presented your
cause as a struggle against oppression in gime.We tried to do our best to bring the
people of Rwanda together. But now
Rwanda. Where did this sense of nation-
people say, "Ah, the Tutsi-dominated
alism come from?
government." We say,"What Tutsi-dom-
PAUL KAGAME: Some of the Rwan-
inated government?" Count the cabinet
dese who formed the RPF were really
ministers. The majority are Hutu. I am
seriously persecuted-and not only by
their fellow Rwandese. I can give you my sorry to define people by their ethnic
own experience in Uganda:We grew up background-that's not my business and
intention at all. But the president is
there, we made friends. The Ugandans
Hutu. The prime minister is also. But
really were hospitable to us, but there
were always reminders that we were for- they say,"You know, there is a vice pres-
ident somewhere who is Tutsi. This is
eigners, we were always being singled the man in charge.
out. Be it in Zaire, be it in Tanzania, be
PG: Well, you won the war. Yourun the
it everywhere, it seemed like the whole
world was against the Rwandese refu- army.
PK:Wait a minute. [Laughs.]My business
gees in exile. It had never cared; it still was to fight. I fought.When the war was
doesn't. Now the whole world is up in
over, I said, "Let's share power." And it
arms about the refugees who are in Tan-
was sincere.Had it not been, I would have
zania and Zaire. Everyone kept quiet
taken over everything. But the fact is that
about the Rwandan refugees who were

168 TRANSITION ISSUE 72

we did it differently.Why won't people thing." [Laughs.]So I said,"Look, you are Refugees
returning,
accept this? After I signed the peace really unfair.When I stay in, I am a prob-
December 1996
agreement I told people-and I was lem. When I say I am getting out, I am a
honest about it-I said, "If everything UNICEF/
problem. So what do you want me to
HQ96-0900/
goes well, I want to get out of the whole do?" Why don't people accept the truth? RadhikaChalasani
thing and either go to school or somewhere Because if I wanted to be a problem, I
andjust have a rest."After a few weeks, it would actually be a problem. I don't have
turned into a political problem. Some to dance around weeping, you see.
people came from Kigali and said, "You PG:You describe the experience of per-
know, everybody's worried. They think secution as crucial to your political for-
when you mentioned getting out of the mation. Is it possible to have that kind of
whole thing you were planning some- experience and not carry it as a resent-

AFTER GENOCIDE 169

Rwandan refugees ment? Is it possible to be formed by werelosinghope of everreturninghome.
returning home, these ethnic divisionsand then to stop Then came these statementsabout how
November 1966
being definedby them? the country was too small for the ref-
Philip Gourevitch PK:It is possible.It hasto be carriedout ugees to go back. There was a feeling
in the form of education.People arenot thatmaybeif oppositionto thiswas rep-
inherently bad. But they can be made resentedpolitically,somethingcould be
bad.And they can be taughtto be good. done. But with time that got ruled out.
I believe in that also because of what I So the next logical thing would be an
have seen in my experiences with the armedstruggle.Wefelt the beginningsof
RPF.I haveseen people change.I believe this in Uganda,fighting there.Deep in
there are mechanismswithin society- our heartsand minds we knew we be-
a way of addressingtheir concerns, a longed in Rwanda.And if they didn't
form of participation.Somethingcan be want to resolvethe problempolitically,
achieved.This is my view. then an armedstrugglewould be an al-
PG: When did you concludethatarmed ternative.
strugglewasthe way to addressRwanda's PG: Your friendshipwith Fred Rwig-
problems? yema was important to the military
PK: As early as I978. And this was foundationsof the RPF.
mainly the result of the government's PK: We grew up together. We were
unwillingnessto accept us back.People together until 1976, when he went to

170 TRANSITION ISSUE 72

Tanzania with the groups that were PK: Yes, I think so. In the position of
struggling against Idi Amin in Uganda. vice president, as in the position of a sol-
We were almost like brothers. People ac- dier who commands respect in the army,
tually thought we were born of the same I feel I've found my purpose.
family.We met again in 1979 at the con- PG: Earlier you spoke of feeling as if the
clusion of the struggle against Idi Amin. whole world was against you during the
In 1981, we joined Museveni's NRA war. The world certainly was present in
and went into the bush for five years, the form of UNAMIR, which did noth-
fighting against Milton Obote's regime. ing to prevent the massacres. And it's
We took Kampala in 1986. well known that France openly sup-
PG: When you joined Museveni in ported Habyarimana and his successors,
198I, Fred was already a veteran.Was his continuing to provide diplomatic cover
influence very strong in your decision to -and arms-to the perpetrators of the
fight? genocide, even in the refugee camps. It's
PK: I had already decided. Even as a kid,
when I was in primary school, we would The U.N. was here, armed-they had
discuss the future of the Rwandese. We
were refugees in a refugee camp in a armored personnel carriers, tanks,
grass-thatched house for all this period. all sorts of weapons-and people got
So this was always eating up our minds,
even as kids. The political consciousness killed while they were watching
was there. We had ideas of our rights.
Fred and I used to read stories about said that France was not only backing an
how people fought to liberate them- old client, but that it opposed the RPF
selves. This was on our minds all the because it wanted Rwanda to remain
time. part of the Francophone Imperium, and
PG: When you finally did mount the at- you and many of your colleagues who
tack on the Habyarimana regime in lived in exile speak English.
I990, did you ever imagine that four PK: They still come and ask us to speak
years later you'd be the vice president? French. It's ridiculous. If they wanted
PK: Not by any stretch of the imagina- people here to speak French, they
tion. It was not even my ambition. My shouldn't have helped to kill people here
mind was just obsessed with the struggle who spoke French.
to regain my rights as a Rwandese. PG: I've spoken with men and women
Whatever that would propel me into in your army who still regret that they
was a different matter. were restrainedfrom engaging the French
PG: Did you like fighting? directly in 1994. But I understand that
PK: Oh, yes. I was very annoyed. I was there were a couple of incidents where
very angry. I will still fight, if I have rea- the RPF did engage and capture French
son to. I will always fight. I have no commandoes-that you had them in
problem with that. your hands and released them-and that
PG: Do you find being a political leader this contributed to making the French
as interesting as fighting? back down.

AFTER GENOCIDE 171

Returning home, PK: Something like that. It occurred dur- it anyway. Dallaire stayed for some time
November 1996
ing our approach to Butare. The French pleading with me, because he was con-
UNICEF/ had come and I received from General vinced there was going to be some kind
HQ96-0765/
RogerLemoyne Dallaire, the Canadian UNAMIR com- of showdown.
mander, a message from the French gen- I told the troops to change course, to
eral in Goma telling me that we should move to Butare now. They arrived in the
not enter Butare. They were trying to tell evening. I told them to just surround
me that there would be a fight. So Dal- the town and stay put until morning. I
laire brought me the fax message and I didn't want them to get involved in a
told him it was unacceptable, that cer- firefight at night. So they took positions
tainly I was going to enter Butare. I told and waited until morning. When our
him that for that matter, I wanted to troops entered, they found that the
move in quicker than I had planned be- French had secretly moved out to
cause I could not tolerate such a provo- Gikongoro. But then, through Dallaire,
cation and such arrogance on the part of they asked permission to return for some
the French. I told him that Butare is part people, some Catholic sisters and some
of our country; we were going to enter orphans they wanted to take away. I

172 TRANSITION ISSUE 72

 cleared it. The French came back, but there had been a fight between their
they didn't know that we had alreadyse- troops and ours lasting twenty seconds
cured the route from Gikongoro to or so, and they had no casualties on their
Butare.We had set a long ambush, nearly side, and there could have been so many
two companies along the road. casualties on our side.
The French didn't know they had PG: That's as close as you ever got to
gone through the ambush as they came them?
to Butare.When they were going back, PK: No, there was another incident in
I told our soldiers at the head of the Kibuye, where the Operation Turquoise
French convoy to stop the vehicles and zone had already been mapped out and
search them. They had about twenty-
five jeeps, I think, and a couple of lor- I will not sit here and tell you that our
ries carrying different people and things
soldiers do not kill people. They do. But
they wanted to take out with them. Our
interest was to make sure that none of we've got to talk about the circumstances
these people were ex-FAR or with the
militias. The French refused. In fact, our troops were deployed along the lines
their jeeps were mounted with ma- dividing the zone and the rest of our
chine guns, so they turned them on our country.At some point the French moved
troops as a sign of hostility. When the in with the ex-FAR and the militias,
soldiers in the ambush realized that crossing our lines. They went into vil-
there was going to be a confrontation, lages, so our troops attacked them, and
they came out. I understand a few fel- they all ran back to the zone. There was
lows who had RPGs [rocket-propelled a trading center called Kirambo, if I re-
grenade launchers] targeted the jeeps. member. Our troops pursued them there.
When the French soldiers in the first I think they killed some en route, but
jeep saw that, they were all instructed to mainly the ex-FAR and the militias-
point their guns upward. And they did. the French must have run ahead of
They allowed our soldiers to carry out them. So we went and surrounded this
the inspection. village, and they attacked us. The French
A few soldiers came to search the ve- were clever enough, though. They didn't
hicles; the others remained in position. fight. They grouped together instead
They were letting vehicles pass as they and stayed in one place and claimed they
checked them. In one of the last vehicles were not part of the fighting. Our sol-
they found two ex-FAR, so they got diers captured eighteen Frenchmen and
them out. One tried to escape. They killed most of those ex-FAR and mili-
fired at him as he was running and killed tias who had been fighting.
him. Maybe they killed the other one, For two or three hours after that, there
too. So when they heard the gunfire, were communications, again through
those vehicles up ahead that had been General Dallaire, between the French
released also started shooting from a dis- command in Goma or Bukavu and us. At
tance. This incident was reported in the some point they threatened to come in
media, but by the French. They said that with helicopters and bomb our troops

AFTER GENOCIDE 173

Rwandan mother and positions. I told them that I thought PK: Well, there are two kinds of things I
(Hutu) and her the matter was going to be discussed and can say about Dallaire or about anybody
adopted children resolved peacefully, but that if they who was serving the United Nations. I
(Tutsi) wanted to fight, I had no problem with think there is the person and there is the
UNICEF/
that. I think they found it was going to person serving the institution: these two
HQ94-0994/
BettyPress be tricky, so they sent a colonel, who tend to be very different. As a man, Dal-
met one of our colonels. Their man laire was fine. He'd discuss things with
pleaded with ours, "Give us our soldiers; you; he'd tell you a bit of his mind; he'd
they were not involved in the fighting." listen to you. But of course, there were
Our colonel tried to show him other- certainly things that he did that I didn't
wise. When I was contacted, I just told appreciate. Because of the helmet he
them to give them up. I didn't want to wore, he had to behave in a certain way.
make any profits out of that. I told the I told him frankly that I would never
French that we wouldn't talk about it in serve under the U.N., that my convic-
the media. We didn't even want to em- tions and my conscience would not al-
barrassthem. So we kept quiet. low me start pretending to do certain
PG: What did you think of Dalaire- things in a certain way because I serve a
in these kinds of circumstances and in certain institution. I was trying to chal-
general? lenge him. UNAMIR was here, armed

174 TRANSITION ISSUE 72

 -they had armored personnel carriers, then they don't seem to understand that
tanks, all sorts of weapons-and people someone was responsible for it, that
got killed while they were watching. I someone planned and executed it. That's
said I would never allow that. I told him why we get confused when there are in-
in such a situation, I would take sides, sinuations that we should negotiate.
even if I were serving the U.N.; I would When you say,"With whom?" they can-
take the side of protecting people. I ac- not tell you. They can't quite bring
tually remember telling him that it is a themselves to say that we should negoti-
bit of a disgrace for a general to be in a ate with the people who committed
situation where people are being killed, genocide. And of course in the long run
defenseless, and he is equipped-he has they create a bigger problem, because this
soldiers, he has arms-and he cannot kind of situation tends to make the peo-
protect them. Of course, Dallaire kept ple who committed the genocide not
quiet. But as a person, I think he was a understand that the crime they com-
good person, and there was constant mitted was a very serious one. The geno-
communication. cide can be made to seem less and less
PG: Sometimes it seems that the U.N. is visible as a very big crime that people
not engaged in peacekeeping or peace- should be hunted for and prosecuted.
making so much as in preventing people PG: It's often said that running a revolu-
from winning wars. Their neutrality can tionary army and overthrowing an old
keep wars brewing. After the French left, order militarily requires a different ge-
you had won control of the country, but nius than establishing and running a new
something like one-fifth of the population state or rebuilding a country. How have
remainsin exile in and around the refugee you found this transition?
camps controlled by the former govern- PK: The kind of situation we're in now
ment and the army and the militias. The is a lot more difficult than the situation
U.N. and the aid agencies are catering to we were in before the genocide. That is
these people. Mobutu and the French are very clear. We had reached a peace
helping them rearmor giving them diplo- agreement; our minds were focused on a
matic cover.Then the U.N. pressesyou to new situation where we were going to
negotiate as if these leaders hadn't carried work together. All of this changed with
out a genocide. So the international re- the death of Habyarimana and the mass
sponse turns the crisis into the status quo. killings that followed. So we were com-
Would it be easierto deal with your prob- pelled to take on a totally new, different
lems without the outside meddling? situation-something we had not antic-
PK: In our situation, it's primarily up to ipated. The twist was abrupt, and the
the Rwandese. If the international com- magnitude of the problems that arose af-
munity is going to become involved, terwardswere immense. People had pre-
there's no way you can stop it, given a pared to live together because of the ne-
situation like the genocide. But they may gotiated settlement. Then suddenly they
provide the wrong remedies to our prob- were made more apprehensive than ever
lems. On the one hand, they admit that before. So bringing these people to-
a genocide took place in Rwanda, but gether and making the country whole

AFTER GENOCIDE 175

 .

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176 TRANSITION ISSUE 72

becomes more difficult. You will find you; you went home. This was institu-
that in the army, about a third of the tionalized.We say all people should go to
people, maybe slightly more, have lost school and it doesn't matter who you
their families. At the same time the peo- are.You will be served by your grade.
ple who are responsible are not being This is a very simple example. If we're
taken care of effectively in terms ofjus- talking about jobs, they should not go to
tice. I imagine this undermines one's ini- Tutsi or Hutu alone. The system should
tial dedication and discipline. This is nat- be competitive.
ural,absolutely natural,and it has its own PG: As I see it, many of the wars in the
consequences. world today, especially in Africa, are
PG: So even though the genocide made struggles over succession. When Fred
your military victory possible, your po- Rwigyema was killed, you took over. Is
litical program was to retire the Hutu- there anybody in line to come in after
Tutsi distinction, to show it up as an you?
artificial and hurtful construct-or at PK: Well, Fred didn't prepare me to take
least to put an idea of Rwandese iden- over from him when he died. I happened
tity and citizenship ahead of any ethnic to be one of those who were left behind,
label. The genocide succeeded in mak- and was accepted by the rest of the
ing those labels more meaningful than group. In all my capacities-in the RPF,
ever.When I ask Tutsis in your govern- in the government, in the army-my
ment whether they hire Hutus to work primary responsibility is to help develop
in their households, most of them say no. people who can take responsibility indis-
From what I understand, the rate of in- criminately.I imagine there has got to be
termarriage is significantly lower than somebody. In the RPF, we have tried to
before. I get the sense that people arejust encourage collective responsibility. I'm
not ready to put their trust in your ideals. not saying there aren't power struggles.
PK: I never had any illusions that these But things were deliberately organized in
political tasks were going to be simple. such a way that one can play a very
But by really being honest about gover- prominent role-be very useful, lead
nance, by being exemplary, we may people, be respected, and so on-but at
gradually convince people that the situ- the end of the day, there is an emphasis
ation can be different. We've got to on collective responsibility,on discussion.
demonstrate this in practical terms, not PG: You speak of collective responsibil-
just talk about it. This can happen in ity and of being exemplary. You now
everyday life. In the past there were have a problem with infiltrators.And in
clear divisions, institutionalized divi- your counterinsurgency operations a
sions: They gave you an identity card; number of people have been killed, some
they defined you as a Hutu or a Tutsi. of them civilians, some of whom seem
Then, if you were in school and you to have been killed unarmed, more or
were a Tutsi,you didn't go beyond a cer- less execution-style. Doesn't one then
tain class;you finished primary or some have to set an example by very publicly
secondary level and that was enough for punishing those responsible?

AFTER GENOCIDE 177

A boy displays
his new
identification
photograph to
peers
UNICEF/
HQ94-100/
BettyPress

178 TRANSITION ISSUE 72

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AFTER GENOCIDE 179

Rwandan prison,
1994, before the
mass influx of new
prisoners with the
return of the
Rwandans in exile

UNICEF/
HQ94-1043/
BettyPress

180 TRANSITION ISSUE 72

 PK: Sure, absolutely. It's all part of the So when you say a hundred and
process. But I don't agree that what you eleven people have died in an operation
say is, necessarily, what has happened. to fight infiltrations it is true. But I ask
These matters have to be investigated, you, why a hundred and eleven, not two
looked at in terms of the concrete reali- thousand or five thousand? What this
ties.What does "unarmed civilian" really means is that there are people commit-
mean? Here, the assumption is that an ting errors, but there is also control.You
unarmed civilian is an innocent civilian. want to act with surgical precision, to
PG: The assumption is that an unarmed make sure that the only person who is
civilian, when confronted by an armed affected is that one who should be af-
soldier, shouldn't have to be shot to be fected. This is very difficult to attain.
brought under control. Even the Europeans or the Americans,
PK: OK, sure. But let's say that he's at a who have the greatest technology and
distance and he's running away and you all other capabilities, have failed to do
think he's a person that you are look- that. They go to fight in Iraq and they
ing for-that he has blown up a bridge tell you they have bombed four hundred
or laid a land mine. So you chose be- civilians who were hiding in a shelter
tween not harming the man and losing from the bombs. [Laughs.] It is even
him. more complicated when you go sorting
PG: What if he's sitting down? out in villages and you are using some
PK: Sure, if he's sitting down that's a dif- fellows who do not have full capacity. If
ferent matter. As I said to you, it's all a
struggle, it's all a process. Oh sure, one Think about the Belgians, the French,
of our soldiers may just shoot somebody
the Swiss, the Germans everybody who
he has arrestedwho is sitting down. This
is possible. In fact, it has happened. We lived in Rwanda and worked with the
have arrested people for that on many
population so closely and deeply-they
occasions. But it's another matter to sim-
ply say this is what the army does. never came to understand that there
PG:You mean that a given soldier's mis-
was anything wrong going on. I think of it
conduct doesn't reflect army policy?
PK: Yes, especially when this soldier is more as complicity than ignorance
punished. But I will not sit here and tell
you that our soldiers do not kill people. everybody was like me, I'm sure the
They do. But we've got to talk about the story would be different. Maybe only
circumstances.Of course the infiltrations those who were supposed to be killed
undermine the process. They undermine would be killed.
the confidence of some of our civilians PG: What about the stories of soldiers
here that reconciliation is possible when committing revenge killings? I under-
the perpetrators of the genocide haven't stand you've arrested some.
been punished and when they show no PK: The army courts are working and
sign of remorse, when they say,given the have alreadyprosecuted some cases. The
opportunity, that they will kill again. The fact that these people are being brought
infiltrations mean all of this. to justice should reassure people that it

AFTER GENOCIDE 181

 is not the system carrying out revenge. Rwanda. In the West and in Asia, suicide
It's individuals, and the individuals are is-

being dealt with. Of course, given the PK: It's common.

situation we have in Rwanda, ordinary PG: Yes. It can even be regarded as hon-
crimes are not going to be looked at as orable in certain circumstances. But I'm
ordinary crimes.Johannesburg alone has told that's not the case here. How are
more crime than the whole country of people explaining this?
Rwanda. Nairobi has more. I'm saying PK: I received a letter from a soldier
things are ugly. If we treat everything as telling me why he killed himself, how he
the same, then we are making a mistake. was left alone in his family, that his fam-
Let's distinguish. For every ten crimes ily has been killed during the genocide,
committed, there are perhaps three or and that he had chosen not to hold any-
four involving soldiers. The rest are body responsible for that. Instead, he de-
civilians. cided to take his own life because he
PG: I understand that during the war didn't see what his life meant anymore.
you executed soldiers who committed He said,"You should ask yourselves why
crimes. I have not killed anybody else for that."
PK: Yes, sure.We did. And that brought I think he was trying to say he had
results. somebody in mind to kill, but instead he
PG: What did you execute them for? decided to kill himself.
Murder? The genocide, you see, has affected
PK: Murder, sometimes rape. I don't see people. Some people seem to think we
the good in preserving you after you should not be affected. They think we
are like animals, that when you've lost
Mobutu is simply an opportunist. If a members of your family, you can be
consoled, given some bread and tea and
flood or an earthquake came and killed then you'll forget about it. [Laughs.]
half a million people, he would take Sometimes I really think this is a con-
tempt for us. I used to quarrel with these
advantage of that also
Europeans who came giving us sodas,
telling us, "You should not do this; you
have so offended others. And it worked. should do this. You don't do this; do
People respected it, and it brought sanity this." I said, "Don't you have feelings?"
and discipline. With armed people, you People think it is a matter that we should
don't allow them freedom to do what have got over with and forgotten. But,
they want. If you are equipped to use no, no, no, no. We are dealing with hu-
force, you must use it rationally.There is man beings here.
no question about it.Your objective is to The other day an officer in Cyangugu
protect the society. went to a bar where he used to drink and
PG:You mentioned once that there have met some people who he recognized as
been suicides now in the army. having taken part in the genocide. One
PK: Sure. evening, when they arrived, he got his
PG: I'm told suicide is extremely rare in rifle and shot. Killed three people, I think,

182 TRANSITION ISSUE 72

and wounded two. When the troops of that person. I don't know. He could Northern Zaire,

came to see what was happening,they have gone to a market and shot a hundred December 1996:
a man accused of
surroundedhim, and they were actually people. He could have killed anybody,
being a Zairian
aboutto kill him.He said,"No, don'tkill such a person who does not even fear be-
soldier is taken
me. At least let me tell you what the ing killed. It means there's some level of into custody
problemis and then you can kill me."So insanity that has been created. by Zairian rebels
he was arrested,and he said,"I'vebeen PG: I don't think there's ever been a sit-
AP Photo/APTV
coming here to drink.I've been seeing uation where the victims and the perpe-
killerswho've been let to live and roam trators of such a massive crime are sup-
aroundand nobody takesaction against posed to live beside each other like this.
them.Well,I decidedI couldnot takeany PK: And so soon. With time, perhaps
more of that,so I've killedthem. I don't people will come around. But right now
thinkI wasdrunk.I wasin a bar,but smell people are being forced to live together
my breath:I haven'teventakena sipof al- even before those responsible have been
cohol. So go aheadand do whateveryou punished. This makes everything very
want."Imaginewhatis going in the mind difficult. I think there has to be a certain

AFTER GENOCIDE 183

logical order if things are going to work PK: At the moment, I don't see much of
out. an internal threat, and if there was one,
PG: Justice first? it would be contained.
PK: Absolutely. PG: In the prisons, people say they've
PG: Then so long as justice is delayed, been falsely accused, and they warn that
nothing else can be dealt with. their brothers will come from outside
PK: That is the problem. and liberate them.
PG: What's the main delay? The short- PK: If a million people died here, who
age ofjudges? killed them?
PK:Yes.Many of them were killed. Oth- PG: A lot of people.
ers were killers. So we have to build a PK: Yes. Have you found many that ad-
new system ofjustice. It's not simple. mit they participated?
PG: You've said as many as a million PG: No, the prisoners all say they are
people could be directly responsible for innocent. They say some others may be
the killings here. Let's say you arrest guilty, but they don't know who. Peo-
Ioo,ooo. Can you handle that many cases? ple used to admit their guilt more im-
Or even half that? mediately after the genocide, back in
PK: Handling such a big number when 1994. But it seems that they've become
you're trying to rebuild society causes politicized.
many other difficulties. But with those PK: That's the truth of the matter.
who masterminded the genocide, I PG: If the prisoners weren't opposition-
think it is very easy; it is clear-cut. They ists before, they're oppositionists now.
must face justice directly. They must be PK:Yes, but that was the best way to deal
held to account. I'm not as worried with the situation. Because either we
about these ordinary peasants who took would have lost them through revenge
pangas and cut people in pieces like an- killings-and that would have been an
imals. even bigger problem for us-or we have
PG: You say justice is the first priority, them as a problem in prison. I prefer the
but sometimes it seems that national se- latter.
curity is more pressing. With the refu- The whole thing here has a relation-
gees and infiltrations, there's a low-level ship to the past. In Rwanda at one time,
war on and a bigger war brewing. we had a society whose leaders directed
PK: Certainly the risk is there, and I one group against the other for political
imagine that if it happens, it will not just reasons. After thirty years of doing this
be a war for Rwanda-it may be a war kind of thing, of course we have this
that spills over into those countries kind of situation.The confusion, the con-
where the infiltrations are coming from, flicting explanations of what happened
especially when it becomes clear that and what is happening now will always
those forces might be receiving support rightly or wrongly be considered through
from the host country, Zaire. Even if it the past.
doesn't happen, we have to preparefor it. PG: As you say,the genocide had a long
PG: How much of a factor would that evolution, and it was clearly planned in
internal resistance become in such a great detail. You were fighting in
war? Rwanda throughout those years. You

184 TRANSITION ISSUE 72

were involved in negotiations.You had, PG: And what do you think of the other
I assume, excellent intelligence from the African countries that have given sanc-
interior. Did you know the scale of the tuary to the killers who ran away?
planning? PK: A feeling of betrayal-even by our
PK: We had an idea there was a big African brothers.We shall remind them
problem. I used to discuss it with the that what happened here can happen
officials of UNAMIR who were here at elsewhere-it can happen in these other
that time. I talked to all the embassies.We countries- and then I am sure they will
used to tell visitors from Europe, from run to us. It can happen tomorrow.Yes.
America, from everywhere about the Things have happened, and they can
training going on, the massive trainings happen again.
of these militias. I used to give them lo-
cations. One time the force commander At first, our feeling was that these people
of UNAMIR came back to us and said,
"Yes, what you told us is true.When we
who had committed serious crimes against
flew over the place in a helicopter, we
humanity were the responsibility of the
saw what was happening there." So the
entire international community. It wasn't
feeling was certainly that something was
terribly wrong. But we were still figur- wrong for us to assume they would be dealt
ing out exactly what.
PG: So it really took you by surprise? with. But it hasn't happened
PK: Sure. But more the monumental
size of it than the fact that it happened. PG: So you want the refugees back?
Knowing the politics and the history PK: We want people back because it is
behind it, what surprised me was that their right and it is our responsibility to
the world never realized the wrong that have them back, whether they support
was being done to our country for all us or not.
these years. They were here, even in the PG: That means all Rwandans living to-
villages. Think about the Belgians, the gether in Rwanda for the first time since
French, the Swiss, the Germans- independence. It's more an experiment
everybody who lived in Rwanda and than a norm. An extreme experiment. I
worked with the population so closely heard from the minister of rehabilitation
and deeply: they never came to under- that something like 70 percent of the
stand that there was anything wrong go- people in Kigali now are newcomers, re-
ing on. I think of it more as complicity turnees from the diaspora. These are
than ignorance. People will tell you, huge population changes. Do you per-
"No, the Rwandan situation is compli- ceive the mixture of old and new-the
cated." They want to believe that. But I fact that people are not familiar with
can't believe that of some of these peo- each other-as an advantage or a disad-
ple and organizations who lived and vantage in the aftermath of the war and
worked here for so many years. I can't the genocide?
believe that of the church. I can't take PK: What I'm going to say,personally, is
that. I think it's just silence over their that everyone in Rwanda has a right to
complicity. be in Rwanda. Perhapsthis is the mistake

AFTER GENOCIDE 185

UN soldiers with
Rwandan refugees
outside Kibumba
Refugee Camp,
Zaire, February
1996
RadhikaChalasani/
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186 TRANSITION ISSUE 72

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the previous regime made, telling the ing at Makerere in Kampala. It's really a
people they have no right to come back. cross-section. I don't have any particular
The moment you deny that right, some- favorite. Not that I don't realize that
body will fight for it, even if he did not there are other people out there to ad-
want it. Habyarimana was too stupid to mire, but it is just not my habit to admire
realize that simple thing. So what we are anybody.
saying is whoever wants to come back PG: You seek an original way because
is free to return.You can have dual citi- nothing else has worked?
zenship; we don't care. It's a question of PK: No. Even if it has worked, I think
rights. there are many other things that could
PG: Did you lose any family members work also. If there'sanything else that has
yourself in the genocide? worked, I would certainly pick a bit
PK: Yes, I did. Many of them. I have five from that. But if there could be another
orphans I'm looking after;three are rela- way of having things work, I would like
tives. Almost every senior commander to discover that. If I could have some
here is looking after someone. original way of thinking, that would be
PG: Do you believe in God? OK with me.
PK: Yes, I do. Not necessarily in the
church.
PG: Any particular god? September1996
PK: Not really. But I have no problem
PG: The prevailing view is that there
with churchgoers or with believers. My
are two populations in the camps, the
attitude is my own, and I don't want to
killers ...
influence any other person to think like
PK: ... and innocent people.
me.
PG: Right. So why isn't anybody trying
PG: Who would you say has influenced
to separate them? The U.N. has its flag
you politically and intellectually? What over these camps.Why won't it take re-
people or books have you found useful
that way? sponsibility for the destabilization the
militias create?
PK: I read to try to improve my under-
PK: That is the question we've been ask-
standing of certain situations, but I have
wanted to be original about my own ing from the beginning. It's really very
difficult to understand, and I think we
thinking, especially in regardsto my own have learned a lot about the hypocrisy
situation here. So I feel like reading en-
and double standardson the part of the
riches my thinking, my knowledge, but
there'sno one person I would single out. people who claim that they want to make
this world a better place. I tell them,
PG: What have you been reading?
"We told you to separate those groups.
PK: I like reading magazines. I read
You have failed. If you-the whole
books. I've been reading a lot of books
world put together-are unable to do
about Mandela and also the books he
this, how can you expect us to do so
himself wrote. I've read Museveni's
much better?You hold us to a standard
books. There's another political scientist,
that has never existed on this earth.You
Mahmood Mahmdani-he was teach-
want us to wake up one morning and

188 TRANSITION ISSUE 72

 have everything right: people walking But in the first place, I didn't create the
hand in hand with one another, forget- criminals. I didn't put them into that
ting about the genocide, things moving kind of situation. And overcrowding
smoothly." It sounds very nice to talk isn't limited to the prisons. If you go to
about it. these villages, you'll find someone liv-
It was a choice on their part. The at- ing in a room with his whole family, a
tempt should have been made-and it is family of ten in a room of about 3 x 3
possible-to separatethese groups and to meters.
transportsome of these forces to a far dis- PG: I'm told that mortality rates are now
tance. To do away with the refugee situ- lower in the prisons than in the general
ation, try closing the camps near the bor- population.
der and make sure that those who want
to come back have the opportunity to do We have to resolve a lot of issues: property,
so. There are some directlyinnocent peo-
justice, and the genocide. We have to
ple there,you see, and this has been a very
bad situation for them. At least here, al- educate the public on this issue of
though some incidents may take place,
ethnicity: what it all means, what it's all
there is some level of sanity. It may not
be pleasant,it may not be the best, but it about, and how we can avoid it
is the best in these circumstances.
But people want absolute solutions. PK: Absolutely. Yes.
They turn it into a political problem, and PG: Is it true that after some guys re-
the political problem is that we cannot cently escaped from a prison in Cyan-
have the refugees back unless we forgive gugu, many returned voluntarily?
these fellows who committed the geno- PK: Yes, more than twenty just came
cide. So it's up to us now to choose be- back on their own.
tween the two: we can refuse to forgive PG: Sounds like an advertisement for
those who committed genocide and as the prisons.
a result have problems not only with the PK It'ssomething to talk about. I'm sure
refugees but also with the international people don't like to talk about that. It is
community; or we can let these fellows a question of being unrealistic. People
who committed genocide, return with must simply become realistic.
the refugees, come back to positions of PG: Now if the army in exile starts a
power, and then have even worse prob- full-scale war, I assume you will try to
lems in the long run. Neither situation is see to it that the war is fought in Zaire.
good, but we certainly know which is What do you think Mobutu's thinking
better for us, which is to say:we are not is? He's allowing, maybe even encour-
going to budge. aging, a fairly big and rather nasty army
PG: They say, "Well, why aren't you to occupy a piece of his territory. Does
having trials?"They say the prisons are he want a war with Rwanda?
unacceptably overcrowded and the refu- PK: Mobutu's thinking is not so difficult
gees fear ending up in them. to understand. Let's imagine that the
PK: That's another question altogether. refugees were not based in Zaire. Then

AFTER GENOCIDE 189

what becomes of Zaire?What was it like could have taken longer when we were
before? fighting.
PG:You mean Mobutu had become iso- PG: If you had fought to the end in
lated, and now he is again a player? 1994?
PK: Mobutu is simply an opportunist. If PK:Yes,we had to win it the way we did
a flood or an earthquake came and killed and then change the situation-reorga-
half a million people, he would take ad- nize. And in the first year, the feeling was
vantage of that also. [Laughs.]That's what also that these people who had commit-
I think is happening with the Rwandese ted serious crimes againsthumanity were
refugee question. Besides, Mobutu never the responsibility of the entire interna-
even visited that part of his territory for tional community. It wasn't wrong for us
twenty years. Mobutu doesn't care. He's to assume they would be dealt with. But
in Gbadolite. Every so many years he it hasn't happened. So what remains is
goes to Kinshasa and just has a look. to turn around and fight another war,
Doesn't matter whether the people are which will be easier to fight this time. I
starving. He doesn't know about it. Or really don't see what cause they have to
he knows about it and doesn't care. So fight for with that record behind them,
it is easy and very difficult to understand having committed genocide here. They're
at the same time. easier to fight like that.
The Zairian authorities have been ac- PG: Because they don't have a good
cusing us of not doing much to return cause?
the refugees. Even if we said we'd for- PK: Sure.
given everybody, they wouldn't believe PG: Your situation with the camps in
it because they know they've commit- Zaire reminds me of the recent situation
ted serious crimes. The very person I in Lebanon. Hezbollah fired rockets at
invite will not believe me because he Israel, Israel fired back, but Hezbollah
knows what was done here two years had placed its gun right by a refugee
ago. camp so some refugees got killed. There's
PG: It'ssometimes said that you won the a huge uproar, but nobody condemns
territory of Rwanda, but you didn't win Hezbollah for putting a gun in the mid-
the war.You didn't defeat the enemy, he dle of refugees.
just ran away, and sooner or later you'll PK: When I was looking at all that de-
have to fight again. Do you see an in- veloping on the screen, I just immediately
evitable war waiting like that? thought, "That's exactly it." It's a total
PK: I want always to imagine that that dilemma. Sometimes you have to choose:
is the case, so I am not overwhelmed by not shoot back and then bear the burden,
any eventuality.But what made me win or shoot back and still bear the burden of
the other time is what, I think, is going the media and other players.The Israelis
to make me win next time. And I'm in could have chosen to wait and thereby
a better situation now. You win a war by risked the lives of their own civilians,who
choosing your battles. In a sense, it was are the same as civilians on the other side,
deliberate that we let some of them go. who have the same value. When I see
It could have been more disastrous. It those debates,it helps me plan for the fu-

190 TRANSITION ISSUE 72

ture. It'sa very difficult situation.Who do PG: For the time being, there is an or-
you save and who do you not save? der not to arrestreturnees, and survivors
are saying, "Why should I have to live
next door to killers?"Why put off solv-
November1996 ing a problem when you can solve it?
PK: People are right to feel like that.We
PG: All these changes-the rebellion in
are not insensitive to the feelings of the
Zaire and the mass return from the camps
survivors;we're trying to enable the sur-
-have put you in a better position.
vivors to live peacefully,and enable other
PK: Yes, a lot of things have changed
people in the country, other Rwandese,
positively. I think we are on the right to live
peacefully. To achieve that in this
path.We have so many refugees return- kind of situation is not an
easy thing.You
ing, and that has always been our wish. don't just go after everyone. Maybe you
PG: Many are convinced that you ran
create an atmosphere where things are
this entire operation, that the rebellion
stabilized first,then you go after the ones
in eastern Zaire is really your show. It
you must. Others you can even ignore
certainly has looked that way at times. for the sake of
PK: Well, because we are not necessarily gradually building a kind
of peaceful coexistence. If we started ar-
unhappy about what's happened, I'm I think it
sure people would be right to suspect resting people right away,
would create more chaos, and that's not
our involvement. It has created an op-
what we're interested in. Let's be more
portunity for our refugees to return, and Let's be more deliberate in
it has limited the options for these forces systematic.
those who must be held ac-
that had been operating from the camps. selecting
countable, and develop the process
So ultimately, we are beneficiaries. But
for public consumption, I'd rather con- against a background of stability.People
centrate on the outcome of what has may carry out revenge killings as they
have in the past, but we shall fight that.
happened than on who has been in- Our aim is to make sure that those who
volved and to what extent. [Laughs.]
must face justice do so, but in an orderly
PG: OK, let's look at the results.Werethe
manner. In between these two inten-
militiassorted out from ordinaryrefugees?
tions, there are problems, there are the
PK: Not entirely. The majority of the
feelings of people.
refugees have returned, among them the PG: For
instance, many survivors who
ex-FAR, the militias, and perhaps the
have had to occupy other people's
civilians who were involved in the geno-
houses are alarmed by the rule that they
cide. But there were others: the hard-
must evacuate within fifteen days if the
core, who wanted to fight to the last per-
owner returns. And they say the gov-
son, and those who say they would never
ernment isn't offering any resettlement
come back because they were so sure
help.
they would be identified, and therefore PK: We have been
decided to take to the hills. It was my working from the as-
sumption that not all those who are now
understanding many of them were killed
reclaiming their houses were necessarily
by those who sorted them out.

AFTER GENOCIDE 191

 those who destroyed other people's PK: I think you can't give up on such a
houses or who took part in the killing. I person. They can learn. I'm sure such a
fully agree that people who are being person must have learned from some
thrown out should get support, but we bad experience he or she had in fleeing
don't have enough resources. Of all the the country and now in returning, but
priorities we're seeking money for, top not in the way the militias predicted. I'm
on the list is housing. But just because sure that every individual, somewhere in
we have no resources doesn't mean we're his plans, wants some peace, wants to
going to close our eyes and let whoever progress in some way, even if he is an or-
is in some property remain within it dinary peasant. He or she needs to settle
whether it is his or not. down and grow food and feed his or her
children. So if we can present the past to
I think Rwanda is definitely going to be them and say, "This was the past that
caused all these problems for you, and
stable. There's no question about it. this is the way to avoid that," I think it
People have just got to be patient with us changes their mind quite a bit. And I
think some people can even benefit
and trust us. When you are doing things from being forgiven, being given an-
on your own without their help, they tend other a chance. But the message is, "Try
again and you won't get away with it."
not to believe that you will succeed And perhaps as they see people with
greater responsibility for the crime be-
We must be bold.We must do certain ing held responsible, it will be clear that
things which will be hard for some peo- somebody has paid for that after all.
to
ple accept, but which will finally pro- Then there is some reversal. And it is
duce results.Yes,people have come back: something we have to try to do.We have
that'sone problemsolved,andnow it has no alternative.
createdanotherproblem,which we also PG: In the last months of 1996, you have
have to solve.But we arebetteroff now consolidated a lot of your efforts of the
facing these new problems.We have to past few years:got the camps closed, suc-
resolve a lot of issues:property,justice, cessfully negotiated the crisis in Zaire,
and the genocide.We have to educate stared down the French, silenced many
the publicon thisissueof ethnicity:what of your critics in the U.N. and humani-
it all means,what it'sall about,and how tarian agencies, and showed Rwanda to
we can avoidit. This is an immensetask be relatively stable and under control.
we have got to carryout. Do you think that you can turn some of
PG: The people who followed the these successes into international credit,
genocide were living a kind of politi- even the economic credit that I think
cal, historical,and moral lie, and those you've sought?
who committed the crimes committed PK: Well, I wish. We see some change.
themselves to that lie. Do you think We see people promising. But over and
that such a person, in mid-life, can be above that, I think we have the satisfac-
rehabilitated? tion that, on our part, we've always tried

192 TRANSITION ISSUE 72

 to do what we thought was right. There PG: But you have eliminated the threat
can never be greater satisfaction for me of infiltration.
than this.Whether the money comes or PK: To a great extent.
doesn't come, I have a degree of satisfac- PG: It seems that in these recent events,
tion that cannot be superseded by any- you and your government have simply
thing else. I think it's a good lesson for been saying, "We know what we want,
some of us. There is a lot that we can we know how to achieve it, we can do it
achieve by ourselves for ourselves, and better than anyone else, and we're not
we've got to keep struggling to do that. going to waste our time with the inter-
If people can help, that's all well and national organizations-we'rejust going
good. If they can't, we should not just to do it." Is that accurate?
disappear from the surface of this earth. PK: We really feel we should be taking
There's a lot you can do here that even the lead in dealing with these problems.
other people have failed to do. And We cannot just accept the NGOs [non-
we're not looking for credit for this. My governmental organizations] and others
focus is on my problem. The Rwandese when they claim to be the experts on
refugees have been my problem. The de- solving most of our problems.We under-
fense and security of my country have stand our problems better than they do.
been my problem. I'll deal with them at So they can play a supporting role, but
any cost, by any means that are available they cannot just impose on us. It is our
to me, with the best knowledge I have. country.We've got to make the decisions.
I do appreciate what comes from other PG: I've sometimes heard NGO people
people, but my experience is that some- say things like, "In Somalia, at least we
times it comes, sometimes it doesn't could operate." They seem to like a to-
come. tal mess more than a degree of order.
PG: Did the FAR really fight back? PK: Yes, they're happier when there's no
PK: They did. They fought. I think they administration. They become the ad-
have been good fighters. But I think ministration, so that makes them hap-
over time when someone is not seeing pier. It is my concern that if many peo-
where he is heading, when somebody ple get involved in a situation and they
has been surprised in his plans, it be- do not understand it well, they might
comes very difficult to reorient. handle it in such a way that does not ac-
PG: Do you regard them as essentially tually lead to a solution. I think Rwanda
defeated? Is the war finally over? is definitely going to be stable. There's
PK: I think they are far worse off than no question about it. People have just
they have been before. And what is left got to be patient with us and trust us.
of them will be easier to contain both When you are doing things on your
in the short and long term. own without their help, they tend not to
PG: So you wouldn't say the war is over. believe that you will succeed. But we are
PK: The war can't be over because of convinced that we will succeed, even
the dynamics of the situation in eastern where they have not helped us.
Zaire. PG: If I understand correctly, your idea

AFTER GENOCIDE 193

 of how to achieve that success requires
that, for the larger political good, you
should look to the future more than to
the past. And that means that the focus
on the genocide as the defining event for
Rwanda may be diminishing.
PK: It must not diminish. It has to stay.
But we have to change the perspective
in which we look at it. This is not the
same as saying we should forget about it.
We are saying, "Let's handle it in such a
way that we can hold the right people
accountable and at the same time move
forward with the rest of society.We can-
not bring things to a haltjust because we
want to emphasize justice and make sure
everyone who was involved at every
level accounts for it. This has its own un-
desirable consequences. So we'll not lose
sight of the genocide. Not at all. But we
shall have always to be inventive in the
way we look at it, so that in giving it its
due attention, we do not overstate and
inflict injustice on people, or create a sit-
uation in which there is no difference
between the leadership that perpetrated
the genocide and the present leadership
that is trying to create a better Rwanda.
It all depends on how we address these
very sensitive issues-whether we fall
back and say,"Well, these Hutus killed,
so they must be killed," and, "These Tut-
sis were the victims, so they must now
get the better of this situation." I think
there has got to be some serious think-
ing on the question of being rational.
But you can't lose the focus on the gen-
ocide. It has so many implications. It tells
us about the past. It tells us about the
present. It tells us about the future. It tells
us a lot about our country.

194 TRANSITION ISSUE 72