Meech and Tami

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1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

EASTERN DISTRICT OF MISSOURI
2 EASTERN DIVISION
3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )

)
4 Plaintiff, )
)
5 vs. ) No. 4:14-CR-88 RWS
)
6 DIONNE LAMONT GATLING, et al., )
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7 Defendants. )
9 REDACTED TRANSCRIPT
10 TRANSCRIPT OF FRANKS HEARING
11 BEFORE THE HONORABLE SHIRLEY P. MENSAH

UNITED STATES MAGISTRATE JUDGE
12
VOLUME 1
13 OCTOBER 17, 2016
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APPEARANCES:
15
For Plaintiff: Mr. Dean R. Hoag
16 Mr. Michael A. Reilly
OFFICE OF U.S. ATTORNEY
17 111 S. 10th Street
20th Floor
18 St. Louis, MO 63102
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For Defendant Ms. JoAnn Trog
20 Gatling: MENEES AND WHITNEY
121 W. Adams
21 Kirkwood, MO 63122
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For Defendant Mr. Preston Humphrey, Jr.
23 Timothy Rush: PRESTON HUMPHREY ESQ., LLC
1015 Locust Street
24 Suite 413
St. Louis, MO 63101
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1 For Defendant Mr. Robert Herman

Andre Rush: SCHWARTZ AND HERMAN
2 8820 Ladue Road
Suite 201
3 St. Louis, MO 63124
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For Defendant Mr. Stephen R. Welby
5 Gibbs: WELBY LAW FIRM
1221 Locust Street
6 Suite 407
St. Louis, MO 63103
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9 REPORTED BY: SUSAN R. MORAN, RMR, FCRR

Official Court Reporter
10 111 South 10th Street
St. Louis, MO 63102
11 (314) 244-7983
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Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography, produced by
13 computer-aided transcription.
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1 I N D E X
3 PREHEARING CONFERENCE IN CHAMBERS..................4
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PLAINTIFF'S WITNESSES
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CS1
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Direct Examination by Mr. Hoag...............52
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Cross-Examination by Ms. Trog................96
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Cross-Examination by Mr. Humphrey...........148
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Cross-Examination by Mr. Welby..............166
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Cross-Examination by Mr. Herman.............222
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Redirect Examination by Mr. Hoag............250
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1 (The following proceedings were held in chambers on
2 October 17, 2016 at 8:43 a.m.:)
3 THE COURT: Let's go on the record. This is United
4 States versus Dionne Gatling, et al. The case number is
5 4:14-CR-88 RWS. We'll call this a prehearing conference with
6 counsel only in chambers.
7 Counsel, if you would announce your presence for the
8 record.
9 MR. HOAG: Dean Hoag and Mike Reilly for the
10 government.
11 MR. WELBY: Steve Welby for Lorenzo Gibbs.
12 MS. TROG: JoAnn Trog for Dionne Gatling.
13 MR. HERMAN: Bob Herman for Andre Rush.
14 MR. HUMPHREY: Preston Humphrey for Timothy Rush.
15 THE COURT: I don't know if there are prehearing
16 matters that counsel would like to address, but I have a
17 couple short things on my list I would like to talk about.
18 And the first order of business, I spent quite a bit of time
19 thinking about the points that Mr. Herman made last week at
20 the two telephone conferences that we had. And I agree that
21 some clarification is in order with respect to the use of
22 information subject to the protective order during the course
23 of the hearing.
24 I have basically drafted an order that I'd like to
25 order this morning, but I wanted to do that only after

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1 getting input from counsel.
2 I do believe that in order to properly balance the
3 defendants' constitutional rights to a public hearing and
4 balance the interest that we all sought to protect and that I
5 thought should be protected by entering the protective order,
6 I think this clarification is necessary.
7 So, first, I believe that the parties should be able
8 to without violating the protective order disclose the
9 following during the course of the hearing:
10 First, the fact that DEA agents from Atlanta,
11 Georgia who were involved in the investigation of Dionne
12 Gatling were or are being investigated by the DEA Office of
13 Professional Responsibility for professional violations of
14 DEA standards of conduct.
15 Second, that some of the agents being investigated
16 by OPR are also the subjects of a criminal investigation by
17 the Department of Justice, Office of Inspector General into
18 possible violations of the law including 18 U.S.C. 1001
19 involving false statements, and 641 involving theft of
20 government funds.
21 And, finally, the parties may disclose the current
22 status of the investigation. An example, whether the
23 investigations are ongoing versus being held in abeyance,
24 whether any charges have been brought against anyone.
25 Otherwise the parties will be prohibited from publicly

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1 disclosing information that's otherwise protected under the
2 protective order including specifically the identities of the
3 individual agents who are or were the targets of either the
4 OPR or OIG investigation, the specific evidence collected by
5 investigators as part of the OPR or OIG investigations,
6 including documents disclosed to defense counsel in this case
7 subject to the protective order, and any statements given by
8 the agents or other witnesses in connection with the
9 investigation.
10 I know that you're all just hearing this for the
11 first time this morning, but I'd like to know if either side
12 has any objection to my entering this order.
13 MR. REILLY: Judge, I think it's going to be
14 okay. Would the Court give me just a moment to confer?
15 Mr. Sullivan from the -- who is conducting the criminal OIG
16 investigation is here. And if I understand correctly, you
17 are saying that agents -- they would be able to disclose that
18 agents involved are being investigated by OPR for violations
19 of professional conduct.
20 THE COURT: Yeah. I took this out of the letter
21 that I think Jeannette Graviss gave to defense counsel.
22 That's where I got the language from.
23 MR. REILLY: That some of the agents are being
24 investigated by the OIG for potential criminal violations,
25 including violations of 18 U.S.C. Section 1001 and 641.

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1 THE COURT: Yep.
2 MR. REILLY: And that the parties may disclose that
3 the current status of the investigation is ongoing, whether
4 it's in abeyance, or if charges have been filed.
5 THE COURT: Correct.
6 MR. REILLY: Okay. And that the parties are
7 precluded from using the name of the agents or disclosing the
8 name of the agents under investigation, the specific conduct,
9 or the specific statements given during the course of the
10 investigation. Is that --
11 THE COURT: I wouldn't say specific conduct.
12 Specific evidence collected.
13 MR. REILLY: Evidence collected. Thank you.
14 THE COURT: In other words, the issue is, as I
15 understood it, was that there have been disclosures made to
16 defense counsel in this case that the targets of the
17 investigation themselves may not even be aware of, and that
18 was one of the reasons for keeping that information
19 protected. So I don't want to -- I want to keep that -- I
20 think that's a good reason for keeping the information
21 protected, especially in light of the ongoing criminal
22 investigation. So if that is the purpose, then I don't want
23 there to be public disclosure of information that the targets
24 of the investigation may not already be aware of. So they
25 may not know what evidence has been collected by OIG or OPR.
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1 MR. HERMAN: There's some evidence that comes
2 outside of the OPR and OIG investigation. I'm assuming that
3 evidence is not -- that evidence was not covered by the
4 protective order. And specifically that is the call made by
5 CS1 to Gatling's prior attorney. That is evidence -- those
6 are allegations and allegations of events that occurred that
7 were not disclosed to us through the OPR or OIG investigation
8 disclosures.
9 THE COURT: I agree. I agree. I mean, if there's
10 any dispute, it would be appropriate to say can we approach,
11 and we address whether or not this is a white noise event or
12 an open court event.
13 MR. REILLY: And we don't dispute that, Judge. The
14 only thing I'd ask is that when they use the letter, just
15 avoid the use of the witness' name.
16 THE COURT: Well, of course. And obviously the
17 name of CS1, I mean, I kind of took that as a given.
18 Everybody understands that's not to be publicly disclosed. I
19 didn't even think I needed to address that in this order.
20 But if we can reach some consensus on this then the next
21 thing I want to talk about is my order on closure. But do
22 you need to confer with Mr. Sullivan?
23 MR. REILLY: May I confer? This sounds reasonable
24 to me, but I just want to confer with Mr. Sullivan because he
25 has a significant interest.

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1 THE COURT: Sure. I understand. And if there's any
2 objection then we'll be happy to put that on the record.
3 MR. HERMAN: I'm not sure what pending
4 investigations that there are, because we are unaware that
5 Aguilar or Swoope is the target of the criminal
6 investigation, although they have taken the Fifth. They've
7 both been fired.
8 THE COURT: I mean, the letter from Jeannette
9 Graviss indicated that two of the three -- she named three
10 people who were under investigation by OPR. Now, this was
11 some time ago, and they were Cromer, Aguilar, and Swoope.
12 And then she went on to say that two of the three, she went
13 into some detail about it, and this is a letter that you all
14 got. Two of the three, and I don't remember which two,
15 obviously Cromer was one. Cromer was definitely one, and
16 then there was another one who was under criminal
17 investigation. The third person at least as of the date of
18 her letter was not under investigation by OIG. So that was
19 kind of what I used as my guide for this.
20 MR. REILLY: And I'll take a moment to confer with
21 Mr. Sullivan.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. WELBY: This might be an obvious question, but
24 you're discussing prohibitions in open court. As far as what
25 we can do during the closed part of the court or white noise

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1 part, we can do --
2 THE COURT: Absolutely. It doesn't mean you can't
3 address it. What I was trying to get at was this issue of
4 everything that defense counsel could possibly ask CS1 about
5 on cross-examination is going to be subject to the protective
6 order and the points that Mr. Herman raised in response to
7 that. And I thought, well, that's true every time we breathe
8 the words OPR and OIG, is that a white noise event? So I'm
9 trying to separate the white noise events from the nonwhite
10 noise events, and then that kind of goes into my next point.
11 MR. HERMAN: Does that make a difference if you're
12 closing the courtroom to everyone?
13 THE COURT: It does not, but I may change my mind on
14 whether or not we have an audio feed. That's the second
15 point that I wanted to address. Because I never quite -- I
16 don't think I asked the question. And we can talk about this
17 while we're waiting for Mike since Dean is here. I didn't
18 ask the question on the phone whether defense counsel agreed
19 with the government's position that any cross of CS1 will
20 pretty much be covered by the protective order. So my
21 question is if we clarify the -- what information is
22 protected and what information is not protected along the
23 lines of what I'm proposing here, do you defendants agree
24 with that position, that virtually all of your
25 cross-examination of CS1 is going to involve white noise, to

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1 put it as simply as I possibly can? And if it is, that's
2 fine, and then my order will stand. And it will be a lot
3 easier for all of us. But if you tell me that, well, no,
4 it's only going to be a very discrete part of any potential
5 questions to her, then I might take a very different view of
6 that.
7 But I don't feel as if -- even as I was preparing my
8 order, I felt like there was a gap in the evidence, for lack
9 of a better term, you know, of avoiding the record for
10 exactly what you all were planning to cover. I only heard
11 from the government what they anticipated you all would
12 cover. But it's your case and you know what you're going to
13 cover. And I didn't hear, no, that's not true, which is why
14 I entered the order that I did. I didn't hear anybody say,
15 well, no, we're not really going to be getting into that or
16 it would be for very limited portions, making CS1 no
17 different than any of the other witnesses where we have a
18 procedure in place for handling those witnesses.
19 So if CS1 is truly different in the sense that the
20 bulk of the questioning you anticipate will involve
21 information that is not subject to public disclosure, then I
22 think my order should stand. But if you say that, no, it's
23 going to be much more limited, then I want us to talk about
24 that. I am prepared to go ahead and set up a public audio
25 feed.
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1 MR. HERMAN: It's hard to know because some of the
2 allegations that we have against CS1 come from outside of the
3 disclosures, the OPR and the OIG disclosures. That's what
4 triggered this whole Franks hearing is she called up Wallach.
5 She called up Watkins' office, Wallach at Watkins' office,
6 and made various claims as to what was going on. That's how
7 we know -- that was the tip of the iceberg for us. Now the
8 question is I don't know if she's going to deny that these
9 things occurred. If that happens then we would cross-examine
10 her with her statements on OIG and OPR.
11 THE COURT: Yeah.
12 MR. HERMAN: It's hard to know in advance what's
13 going to happen.
14 THE COURT: What do you think?
15 MR. HOAG: I don't think she's going to deny
16 statements that she made, okay, to Wallach or anybody else.
17 And I think you guys just got a -- basically an affidavit
18 that she was going to send that she did not send, okay. And
19 it's pretty much laid out there what she was pissed off
20 about.
21 MR. HERMAN: Well --
22 MR. WELBY: That's another protective order.
23 MR. HERMAN: That's not a protected disclosure. I
24 disagree that it should be protected at all. I understand,
25 Judge, there was an original protective order, and we

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1 didn't -- I didn't object. But I've never had a protective
2 order carry over into the actual hearing.
3 MR. HOAG: It doesn't mean you can't cross-examine
4 her on the protected information. I mean, that doesn't --
5 MR. HERMAN: Oh, I intend to, but the question is --
6 MR. HOAG: It's not protecting her from cross-
7 examination, I mean, it's out there, okay, as far as you guys
8 are concerned and we are concerned.
9 MR. HERMAN: Well, so are her statements made to OPR
10 and OIG are out there.
11 MR. HOAG: Right.
12 THE COURT: What do you mean they "are out there"?
13 MR. HERMAN: Well, I'm using Dean's terms.
14 THE COURT: Are they out there beyond the
15 investigation by OIG? In other words, are they in the public
16 realm?
17 MR. HERMAN: None of this is in the public realm
18 yet.
19 THE COURT: Right. Well --
20 MR. HERMAN: But it should be.
21 THE COURT: I don't know that I should be the person
22 to do that. And it may be if there is an indictment or some
23 other formal charge in the OIG investigation -- I mean,
24 that's my problem is that I've got an ongoing criminal
25 investigation inside of an indicted case. And that puts me

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1 in a really tricky situation. So I don't feel comfortable
2 saying that the parties can publicly discuss information from
3 an ongoing criminal investigation that the only reason you
4 got it is because we're in this very odd situation. So I
5 don't -- you know, and I'm not really here to litigate
6 whether or not the protective order is appropriate.
7 I'm trying to address your point, which I thought
8 was a very valid one, that we've got to put some parameters
9 around what you can and cannot talk about, otherwise every
10 time the words "OPR" and "OIG" are breathed we'll be having a
11 side bar, and I don't feel that's appropriate. I agree, I
12 think that is too broad. But I feel this is a way to balance
13 the interests that are presently in front of me.
14 MR. HERMAN: Well --
15 MR. WELBY: Stupid question No. 2. When you say we
16 can't use the name of the people who are under investigation,
17 does that mean in that context? So, for example, if I ask
18 Brett Johnson did you talk to Keith Cromer before you wrote
19 the affidavit, there's no problem with that, right?
20 THE COURT: No. You can't disclose who the
21 targets -- in other words, what I'm saying is I think it's
22 fine for the defendants to say, look, there was an OIG and
23 OPR investigation into agents from Atlanta who were involved
24 in investigating the Gatling matter. You can't disclose who
25 the targets of those investigations are.

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1 MR. WELBY: Okay.
2 MS. TROG: Stupid question No. 3, Your Honor. We
3 are going to ask CS1 to identify payment voucher receipts
4 that were disclosed under the testimony of David Aguilar,
5 which was subject to the protective order. On the receipt
6 itself it has CS1 and her signature is blocked out, okay.
7 But then on the bottom it has supervising authority Keith
8 Cromer, and then the name of David Aguilar. And what we had
9 envisioned was to put that on the ELMO to see if she could
10 identify it. There is nothing that has to do with the
11 attached DEA information because she has never seen that.
12 We're going to ask her if she's seen any attachments to it,
13 and we anticipate her answer is no. We're going to ask her
14 if --
15 MR. HOAG: I'm sorry, say that again.
16 MS. TROG: We're going to ask her if she had seen
17 any of the attachments to the voucher.
18 MR. HOAG: Oh.
19 MS. TROG: And we anticipate her answer is no.
20 MR. HOAG: The payment vouchers?
21 MS. TROG: Yes.
22 MR. HOAG: Okay.
23 MS. TROG: So the only thing that we're going to be
24 asking her to testify to is if she has a recollection of this
25 payment voucher with her signature blocked out. But that

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1 voucher is going to have Cromer's name and Aguilar's name on
2 it. Is there any difficulty with that?
3 THE COURT: Well, there's no difficulty, right. You
4 can ask her about it. But it is actually helpful to me to
5 have an understanding of what you're anticipating asking this
6 witness. The difficulty would be if you wanted to publish
7 that document to the public, which there won't be any public
8 in the courtroom.
9 MS. TROG: Right.
10 THE COURT: Right. But if you're going to be
11 getting into details about a document that got disclosed only
12 because we're in this posture then I don't know that that's a
13 discussion that's really for public consumption, and that
14 sounds like a white noise event. If you're talking about
15 documents that were produced, documents from the OIG or OPR
16 investigation then that's a white noise event. So that's an
17 event -- in other words, where you get to question the
18 witness about it, but I would want to cut off public access
19 to that discussion.
20 MR. HERMAN: I'm sorry.
21 MS. TROG: Go ahead, Bob.
22 MR. HERMAN: So let's take a specific example.
23 THE COURT: That was a very specific example.
24 MR. HERMAN: I'm going to give you a better and a
25 bit more concise example. CS1 had sexual intercourse with

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1 Cromer 10 to 15 times. We know that from --
2 MR. HOAG: Where did you get that number?
3 MR. HERMAN: It was --
4 MR. HOAG: I read her transcript four or five times,
5 and she said six, seven, or eight.
6 MR. HERMAN: Harvey says 10 to 15 times. Harvey
7 says that she told him 10 to 15 times. It doesn't matter how
8 many times. Once is too many. That information comes to us
9 as a result of the OIG and OPR investigation.
10 THE COURT: That's specific evidence that was
11 collected during the course of the investigation, that's not
12 public consumption under my order.
13 MR. HERMAN: Okay. See, now I'm trying to parse for
14 myself whether the -- and I think you've answered it now, but
15 whether it was the fact of it being the subject of an
16 investigation that is the issue that needs to be suppressed
17 or is it just anything that's been learned in the OPR, OIG
18 investigation? And if you're going to extend it to anything
19 that's learned in the OPR or OIG investigation, it is
20 99 percent of the evidence.
21 THE COURT: Well, that's what it sounds like.
22 MR. HOAG: Let me answer that. I'm going to go
23 through direct examination of her, okay. And her disclosure
24 of their sexual relationship, okay, I'm going to touch
25 because she told that to Jack Harvey, okay. That's before

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1 the OPR investigation started, okay. I mean, the evidence is
2 going to be, "I'm nervous about this payment," okay. "I
3 don't know why I got $80,750," okay. And she had been trying
4 to talk to him for almost -- and basically came out with it
5 and said, "I need to talk to you." And she tells him, okay,
6 "I think I got money I didn't deserve," all right. That's in
7 her OPR, okay. But that's information she gave to Jack
8 before there was an investigation. He --
9 MR. HERMAN: Well, we don't know that except for
10 Jack told the OPR investigator.
11 MR. HOAG: And she's going to testify to that.
12 MR. HERMAN: Publicly without white noise?
13 MR. HOAG: Yes. Without white noise, okay.
14 MR. HERMAN: Because that undermines the whole need
15 for keeping all of that --
16 THE COURT: Well, but that's a very small part of
17 it. It sounds like you're going to get into much more --
18 MR. HERMAN: That may be all I need. I'm not here
19 to impress a jury. I don't have a jury, and I'm not here to
20 impress you, I'm here to show you facts. I mean, you know a
21 lot more about it than is going to be the subject of --
22 MR. HOAG: We're not here to hide anything, okay. I
23 mean, our point is the facts are what the facts are. And
24 she's going to testify that she had a relationship. And
25 she's going to testify she told that to Jack Harvey, okay. I

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1 mean, that's not -- that was not uncovered by OPR or OIG.
2 MR. HERMAN: Does the public get to hear that?
3 MR. HOAG: It was explored and fleshed out, if you
4 wish, okay, by that investigation, but the fact that it
5 existed, I'm sorry, we're not going to hide that.
6 MR. HERMAN: So the public gets to hear that part?
7 THE COURT: Well, we could certainly start off by
8 having her direct examination publicly available. I guess
9 I'm worried that what Mike said on the call the other day was
10 accurate. This conversation is actually confirming what he
11 said, that maybe the direct examination is public consumption
12 but the cross-examination may not be. In other words, it
13 might be too difficult to try to parse out the things that
14 can be heard publicly from the things that can't be heard
15 publicly. In which case then, you know, we could just close
16 the cross-examination. You know, that doesn't seem right to
17 me. I think either the whole thing should be closed,
18 frankly, or all of it should be open. I think it will be odd
19 to do it otherwise.
20 And based on what I am hearing -- well, first, let
21 me see, do you have an objection to what I propose in terms
22 of entering this order? And this is going to be for the
23 entire, not just for CS1 but for the entire hearing.
24 MR. REILLY: Can I make sure I understand that,
25 Judge, just what it meant, like the scope of when and where.
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1 These parameters that they can disclose DEA agents are being
2 investigated by OPR for violation of professional conduct.
3 Some of the agents were investigated for violations of 1001
4 and 641 by OIG, and that you may -- they may disclose the
5 current status, whether it's ongoing, in abeyance, or charges
6 have been filed. Does that mean you anticipate that can be
7 discussed in the courtroom on the public record without white
8 noise --
9 THE COURT: Correct.
10 MR. REILLY: -- for the public portion of the
11 hearing?
12 THE COURT: That's right.
13 MR. REILLY: That's -- nobody has a -- I have
14 conferred with Mr. Sullivan and he says that's something they
15 can live with. And the statement -- the target of the OIG
16 just for current statement, the target of the OIG
17 investigation is Keith Cromer, okay.
18 THE COURT: And nobody else?
19 MR. REILLY: And nobody else. Now, there were other
20 folks who faced potential administrative -- they were not
21 targets. The other TFOs or agents were not necessarily
22 targets on the criminal side, but they would have faced
23 potential administrative sanctions with OPR under the OPR
24 investigation. And that was John Murphy. And was it Swoope
25 who retired?
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1 MR. HOAG: Swoope.
2 MR. REILLY: And Murphy was the ASAC, he was
3 Cromer's direct supervisor, but he's retired. And Swoope was
4 one of the other agents that's been identified in our
5 disclosure, but he's also since retired.
6 THE COURT: What about Aguilar?
7 MR. HERMAN: He was fired.
8 MR. HOAG: Well, fired is a different name, okay.
9 MR. HERMAN: He was fired by the police department.
10 MR. HOAG: He was transferred, okay. He was fired
11 by Atlanta?
12 MR. HERMAN: By Norcross.
13 MR. HOAG: I didn't know that.
14 MR. HERMAN: Isn't that what you gave us?
15 MR. HOAG: He was transferred.
16 MR. REILLY: He was transferred from DEA back to
17 Norcross and then disclosed some personnel stuff --
18 MR. HERMAN: And Norcross fired him. Isn't that --
19 did I read that wrong, folks?
20 MR. HOAG: I didn't --
21 MR. REILLY: I'm unaware of Norcross. But we can
22 try to resolve that. I'm not aware of that but I'll check.
23 MR. HERMAN: It's in the Friday 4:45 disclosures.
24 MR. REILLY: Okay. Let me check.
25 MR. WELBY: We had a lot of disclosures.

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1 MR. HERMAN: This came out Friday afternoon.
2 MR. HOAG: And we got a lot of late requests for
3 stuff, okay. So we're just trying to comply with everything.
4 And we gave her a lot of late stuff too.
5 THE COURT: I ruled over the weekend, what more do
6 you want me to do?
7 MR. HOAG: I know you did. I got that.
8 MR. REILLY: We couldn't ask for anything better.
9 MR. HERMAN: So I have another question.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 MR. REILLY: We'll get that resolved and try to get
12 on the same page with Mr. Aguilar, okay, in terms of whether
13 he's -- factually I'll try and get that resolved. If he's
14 been fired, we missed it. I'll have somebody check on that.
15 MR. HERMAN: And if he's fired then he's fair game.
16 MR. REILLY: Fair game as far as what?
17 MR. HERMAN: As far as public disclosure.
18 THE COURT: No, I disagree. If somebody was subject
19 to an investigation and they were cleared or they were not
20 charged by the entity doing the investigation, that's even
21 more reason to not have public disclosure.
22 MR. HERMAN: I'm saying he was hired.
23 THE COURT: By who?
24 MR. HERMAN: By the agency --
25 THE COURT: I don't know who Norcross is.

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1 MR. HOAG: That's the local police department like
2 Des Peres.
3 MR. HERMAN: Aguilar was a state officer that got
4 detailed to the task force.
5 THE COURT: To the task force.
6 MR. HERMAN: The task force removed his security
7 clearance so he had to go back to the state agency that he
8 was employed by. That's Norcross, Georgia. That was the
9 police department. And they fired him.
10 THE COURT: Was he ever subject to the
11 investigation?
12 MR. REILLY: I don't believe that he was -- I will
13 get a statement as to whether he was subject to the
14 investigation. I think there was something in our initial
15 disclosure --
16 THE COURT: The letter from Jeannette Graviss said
17 that he was the subject of one or both investigations.
18 MR. HOAG: OPR.
19 MR. REILLY: But I don't know that I necessarily
20 agree factually that he was fired because his security
21 clearance got revoked. He got transferred back, and part of
22 getting transferred back was his deputation was withdrawn.
23 MR. HERMAN: They gave him a Garrity letter, and he
24 admitted that he participated with Cromer in preparing false
25 affidavits for payment, and they fired him for that.

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1 MR. REILLY: Maybe we can look at the records
2 together and see if we're on the same page factually before
3 we --
4 MR. HOAG: I don't know what it has to do with --
5 THE COURT: Whether this is relevant to the issues
6 before me is a completely different issue. But with respect
7 to the order that I'd like to enter, any objection from
8 defense counsel?
9 MS. TROG: Perhaps just one more. So are we saying,
10 Your Honor, that the cross-examination of CS1, if we hit a
11 point that we know is not for public disclosure that we
12 should advise the Court?
13 THE COURT: No. No, no, no. I'm sorry. So the
14 order that I am proposing is an order for what can be
15 publicly discussed during the course of this entire hearing,
16 okay. And it's what we talked about at the beginning, the
17 fact that agents from Atlanta who were involved in the
18 investigation of Gatling are or were being investigated by
19 the DEA Office of Professional Responsibility for
20 professional violations of DEA standards of conduct. You can
21 talk publicly regardless of who the witness is. That some of
22 the agents being investigated by OPR are also subjects of a
23 criminal investigation. And you can talk about the current
24 status of the investigations publicly.
25 What you can't talk about are the other things that
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1 are protected under the protective order including who the
2 specific agents were being investigated or the specific
3 evidence collected by investigators as part of the
4 investigation. All of that would be a white noise event.
5 You can talk about it, but it would have to be at a side bar
6 or using the procedures we discussed last week.
7 Based on the discussion we've had in here, I am
8 going to stick to my order for closure with respect to CS1.
9 I was having this conversation and in thinking about whether
10 or not I needed to reconsider my denial of the defendants'
11 request to have an audio feed of the testimony of CS1, but
12 based on this discussion in chambers I'm going to stick to
13 the order that I entered on Friday, and so CS1's testimony is
14 going to be closed. There will be no audio feed. That's
15 what my order said so we don't have to worry about white
16 noise.
17 MR. HOAG: White noise.
18 MS. TROG: I want to clarify. I'm sorry.
19 THE COURT: I know it got confusing because I
20 started mixing two different things. I should have stuck to
21 point one before I went to point two but I got ahead of
22 myself.
23 MR. WELBY: Just to make sure we preserve the issue,
24 Judge, I think I would object and stand on the same basis
25 that was set forth in our prior response.

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1 THE COURT: Yes. And so I'm assuming all the
2 defendants join in that objection?
3 MS. TROG: Yes.
4 MR. WELBY: Yes.
5 MR. HUMPHREY: Yes.
6 THE COURT: Your objection to the total closure.
7 MR. REILLY: And, Judge, subject to that I would ask
8 for a ruling as to whether we may have Mr. Sullivan and
9 Ms. Medina in the courtroom when CS1 testifies because they
10 do have a unique interest in the case. Their investigation
11 essentially has been disclosed. It's unusual that an ongoing
12 criminal investigation would be disclosed. And that will
13 help them assess what's been disclosed, how it may affect
14 their investigation. And their presence in the courtroom
15 will also allow us to quickly evaluate what items may be in
16 the transcript that would damage the investigation if and
17 when the Court would release a redacted version of the
18 transcript publicly. Their assessments, their realtime
19 assessments would help. I think it's something more they
20 would pick up from being in the courtroom when it happens as
21 opposed to reviewing a cold record later.
22 THE COURT: I didn't rule on that motion because I
23 wanted to know if the defendants had any objection to the
24 motion to allow Sullivan and Medina to be present during the
25 testimony of CS1.
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1 MR. WELBY: I don't have any objection.
2 MS. TROG: No objection.
3 THE COURT: And so I'm going to grant it. All
4 right.
5 MR. WELBY: Do we logistically have headphones for
6 the defendant and white noise capability?
7 THE COURT: I don't know. And that's what we would
8 need.
9 MR. WELBY: We won't need them until after CS1. CS1
10 is going first?
11 MR. HOAG: Yeah.
12 MR. WELBY: We could can work it out as we go.
13 MR. HOAG: I'm not going to throw you guys a
14 changeup. You're going to see fast balls, okay.
15 MR. WELBY: I've worked with you before, Dean, lots
16 of fast balls.
17 MR. REILLY: Nothing slippery.
18 THE COURT: Okay. What matters would you all like
19 to address before we get started, if any?
20 MS. TROG: Your Honor, there is just our concern
21 that there be a voir dire of CS1 simply so it's on the record
22 that she's been appointed an attorney, that she's had
23 sufficient time to talk to the attorney, that all of her
24 questions have been answered. Because if we don't have it on
25 the record and something later comes up, I --

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1 MR. HERMAN: Also that what immunity either official
2 or unofficial, promises have been made to her, because she
3 says in her -- in her email that we just received on Friday
4 that Dean told her she wasn't going to be prosecuted. So
5 that is -- it's not an official recognition of immunity but
6 it certainly sounds like that to her, and she may be
7 testifying under false understanding.
8 MR. REILLY: Let me find the email real quick.
9 THE COURT: And, Ms. Trog, would you like to conduct
10 the voir dire?
11 MS. TROG: Well, I didn't know if the Court would
12 want to, if Mr. Hoag would want to, or if we can do it.
13 We're just adamant that it needs to be addressed.
14 THE COURT: The fact that she was appointed counsel,
15 that fact, there is a record of that because I spoke with her
16 and did it on the record. But it was ex parte. But I agree
17 that you want to get that on the record before she testifies,
18 that she's actually had a chance to talk to counsel.
19 MS. TROG: Right.
20 THE COURT: It doesn't matter to me who does it.
21 What's your preference?
22 MR. REILLY: I'd prefer the Court do it, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 MR. REILLY: But I don't stipulate that the witness'
25 email is as Mr. Herman said is a statement of immunity by

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1 Mr. Hoag or that she was not going to be prosecuted. I'm not
2 sure that adequately characterizes the conversation. The
3 email speaks for itself.
4 MR. HOAG: And that's a mischaracterization of the
5 conversation, okay.
6 MR. REILLY: And for the record what document is
7 this?
8 MR. HOAG: It says, "At this time, I am not
9 considered to be under any criminal charges and based on the
10 conversation you had with Mr. Sullivan on 10/10/16.
11 Mr. Sullivan does not plan on moving forward with any type of
12 charges regarding myself (however not guaranteed), and with
13 that being said..."
14 MR. REILLY: And that's Document 321 and the email
15 that Mr. Hoag attached to that.
16 MR. HOAG: That's not a grant of immunity from me,
17 okay.
18 MR. HERMAN: "We're not going to prosecute you."
19 I'm not talking about whether it's a formal --
20 MR. HOAG: That's not what it said. It said
21 "Mr. Sullivan does not plan on moving forward," okay, that's
22 what it says.
23 THE COURT: Well, I'll ask her about --
24 MR. HOAG: Yes.
25 THE COURT: -- appointment of counsel. I'll ask her

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1 about whether she's had sufficient time to talk to her
2 counsel. And you all can ask her about what agreements she's
3 entered into if you want to do that as part of your
4 examination of the witness.
5 MR. WELBY: Just to put it on the record, you in
6 your order designated me as the point person to speak with
7 Mr. Newton about CS1. And I did give him our side of the
8 story. I explained to him what we thought was going on from
9 our perspective. And he advised me that he did speak to her,
10 and it's her decision that she intends to go forward and
11 testify this morning. That's information I learned on I
12 think Friday morning he called me.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. WELBY: You called me Thursday.
15 THE COURT: He did speak to you.
16 MR. WELBY: He spoke with me on Thursday and then
17 called back on Friday with her decision.
18 MS. TROG: Was there any discussion of the word
19 "immunity" in that conversation?
20 MR. WELBY: Yes. It was my understanding that she
21 had not been granted formal statutory immunity.
22 THE COURT: I can ask her that.
23 MR. WELBY: Which I believe is correct?
24 MR. HOAG: That's correct. We'd have to adjourn
25 this meeting, okay, for me to get that because we've got to

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1 go through D.C. to do that. So that's not going to happen.
2 MR. WELBY: I thought you liked the guys in D.C.
3 MR. HOAG: Yeah, they really love me too.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 MR. HERMAN: I do have another question about
6 procedure here. So we anticipate that Swoope is not going to
7 be here because we can't find him.
8 THE COURT: Oh, he was the one?
9 MR. HERMAN: He was the one.
10 MR. WELBY: There is an outstanding subpoena for him
11 right now.
12 THE COURT: Who is the two for Wednesday morning?
13 MR. WELBY: Cromer and Aguilar are scheduled to
14 appear Wednesday morning at nine o'clock. Both of their
15 lawyers have advised me that they intend to take the Fifth,
16 and they are requesting to do it telephonically. We have an
17 outstanding subpoena for Swoope, which at this point in time
18 I don't believe has been served. It's scheduled for him to
19 appear tomorrow morning. So I believe it's going to be
20 unlikely.
21 THE COURT: He's not been served so he's not
22 currently --
23 MR. WELBY: To my knowledge he has not been served.
24 I have not heard confirmation from the U.S. Marshal that he
25 was served. He didn't call me and Mr. Gideon, his attorney,

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1 didn't call me.
2 MR. HERMAN: We anticipate Cromer, Aguilar, and
3 Swoope are not going to appear. We have statements,
4 transcripts of testimony given by Swoope and Aguilar, and we
5 suspect that the information given in those transcripts is
6 going to figure in our ultimate memorandum and motion. So
7 what I would ask is if the Court will accept representation
8 that we just place the deposition transcript of whether it's
9 OPR or OIG, the transcript of these witnesses into evidence
10 as a whole. And then in the following memorandum of law we
11 will be able to refer to the specific parts of evidence that
12 are appropriate for the memorandum --
13 THE COURT: I got you.
14 MR. HERMAN: -- rather than having to stand here in
15 court and read lengthy portions of the transcript.
16 MR. WELBY: And my request would be --
17 THE COURT: I would welcome that.
18 MR. HERMAN: I would too. So that's why I'm
19 checking in advance.
20 MR. WELBY: My request would be even broader. I
21 think our exhibits are large blocks of the protected
22 discovery which I think we're going to file the disks, most
23 of what I think you've seen already in the in camera reviews.
24 But if we would be allowed to submit those, it would avoid a
25 lot of this dance with trying to find Smith or Swoope or

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1 trying to call in some FBI agent from another place just to
2 testify --
3 MR. HOAG: Judge, we have no objection. It is what
4 it is, okay.
5 MR. WELBY: I think it's going to simplify
6 everything.
7 THE COURT: It will. I mean, that's your evidence,
8 and I'm going to consider it.
9 MR. REILLY: And just reciprocally though if there's
10 something you don't submit or you don't highlight that's in
11 the materials that you do bring to the Court's attention, I'm
12 assuming you won't have any objection if we take the other
13 materials that you've been furnished from Swoope, Smith,
14 Aguilar, or unavailable people, and that we can direct the
15 Court's attention to whatever we think is relevant just as
16 you propose.
17 MR. HERMAN: And I agree with that. So why don't we
18 just say this, --
19 MR. WELBY: I think that's fair.
20 MR. HERMAN: -- anything in the government's
21 production of evidence to us is fair game for reference in
22 the following memorandum of law regardless of whether it is
23 formally placed into evidence at the hearing.
24 MR. REILLY: Are you just talking about the four
25 unavailable witnesses?
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1 MR. HERMAN: No, I'm talking about everything. You
2 want to draw on everything. I don't want to -- because we
3 can do this in a one-day hearing.
4 MR. HOAG: We're not going to make this -- no, it's
5 just -- it's been produced, anybody wants to use it, they can
6 use it. Period.
7 THE COURT: I don't have a problem with that.
8 MR. HERMAN: I don't either. I mean, it makes
9 things a lot easier. We're not talking to a jury here.
10 THE COURT: Right. I'm the fact finder.
11 MR. HOAG: That's why I say it's fine.
12 MR. HERMAN: But normally in a suppression hearing
13 you would have to put the evidence into the hearing in order
14 to use it. But I think what we're agreeing here is that if
15 it's been produced by the government, whether it's a
16 transcript or it's a piece of evidence.
17 MR. REILLY: Okay. One other thing, Judge. I
18 apologize --
19 MR. HERMAN: I'm not done stating. So I think what
20 our broad agreement is if it's been produced by the
21 government, it's fair game for the reference in subsequent
22 memorandum of law regardless of whether it was formally
23 introduced as evidence within the confines of the hearing.
24 Is that right, Mike? Is that okay?
25 MR. REILLY: Yeah.

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1 MR. HOAG: That's fine.
2 MR. HERMAN: So everything the government has
3 produced can be cited as if it were admitted into evidence.
4 THE COURT: No. Here's the way I would prefer it be
5 handled. Just treat it in your briefing as additional
6 evidence being submitted. It's the same thing. But do you
7 understand what I'm saying?
8 MR. HERMAN: Without foundation in the hearing.
9 THE COURT: Yeah, you don't have to do that. Just
10 treat it as additional evidence. And maybe I'll try to
11 remember to make some remarks at the close of the hearing
12 that counsel will submit -- will supplement the record with
13 additional records from the disclosures that were previously
14 made. That way we know there's other stuff that you're
15 asking me to look at. I just don't want it to sound as if
16 I'm going to somehow wade through all the stuff that's out
17 there, because I'm not going to do that. I'm going to be
18 relying on you to tell me here's what is important and why we
19 think it's important, and then I'll make my call on whether
20 or not I think it's relevant to the inquiry before me.
21 MR. HERMAN: My only concern was no one is going to
22 say if at some point in a memorandum we refer to some part of
23 the government production, no one is going to object to say,
24 wait a minute, you didn't produce that in evidence during the
25 hearing itself.
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1 THE COURT: I understand what you're saying.
2 MR. HERMAN: We're waiving that foundational
3 objection I guess.
4 MR. HOAG: Yeah.
5 MR. HERMAN: Okay. That's good.
6 MR. WELBY: I don't want to beat this to death, but,
7 Preston, you have our exhibits or bulk disclosures that I
8 think for the record it would be good to have those exhibits
9 entered into evidence, then we can refer to them as motion
10 exhibits. And if for some reason we've missed something, it
11 could be supplemented. But otherwise you basically have left
12 open --
13 THE COURT: Right. The things on your exhibit list
14 you mean --
15 MR. WELBY: Yes, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: -- you're going to move into evidence?
17 MR. WELBY: Yeah, that's what I was thinking and
18 then we could work off of that. And if for some reason we
19 missed something that was turned over Friday or Saturday, we
20 can always supplement it. But I'd prefer that then to just
21 have an anything goes sort of discovery.
22 THE COURT: I agree.
23 MR. REILLY: And, Judge, I'm assuming it goes
24 without saying that -- I'm assuming it remains sealed or
25 before anything is made public we would have an opportunity

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1 to cull through it and make sure protected materials are not
2 going to be released to the public later.
3 THE COURT: Yes.
4 MR. WELBY: They will be filed under seal. That's
5 what I was thinking at least.
6 MR. HERMAN: So I have one more thing if I could.
7 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead.
8 MR. HERMAN: I don't know what the government's got
9 in mind to do here, but I'm concerned about the scope of the
10 proceedings. And by that I mean the argument on a Franks
11 hearing is about the affidavit being sufficient to support
12 the warrant that was entered subsequent in response to the
13 affidavit. The law is pretty clear that matters outside of
14 that affidavit are not to be used to justify the warrant.
15 And to the extent that the government -- and I don't
16 know if they are planning on doing it or not, but to the
17 extent the government is going to introduce evidence that
18 there were criminal acts taking place or that they were
19 justified in having these wiretaps by adducing evidence that
20 does not appear in the affidavit itself, I'm going to be
21 objecting to increasing the scope of the testimony here.
22 First of all, we're not trying these people's
23 liability, we're not trying their guilt at this point. And
24 that certainly will make things take weeks and weeks rather
25 than just focusing on the affidavit itself. I don't want to

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1 be jumping up and down like a jack-in-the-box saying that's
2 outside of the affidavit.
3 THE COURT: I understand. But obviously if the
4 information is being offered to show what the agents knew at
5 the time that the affidavit was submitted for review or what
6 they did to corroborate information that's contained in the
7 affidavit, that's obviously going to be within the scope.
8 And by the same token on the flip side of that, I'm glad you
9 brought up the scope, I'm looking at this pretty narrowly
10 also. The issue is what did the affiant know.
11 So I don't care if CS1 had sex with Cromer 25 times.
12 If the affiant didn't know about it, it's not really relevant
13 here. So all of this stuff has to be tied in to what the
14 person who signed the affidavit knew when they presented that
15 affidavit to the Court.
16 So I agree with you on scope. And I'm not going to
17 get too far afield of what the issues are before me. I mean,
18 I'd like to give the parties the opportunity to present the
19 case in whatever form they want to and make sure you get a
20 chance to present and make your points, but I'm not going to
21 let everybody go, you know, all over the board. Because I
22 think the issue in front of me is a relatively narrow one.
23 So I agree.
24 MR. HERMAN: What the affiant knew is only relevant
25 to the extent that they put it in the affidavit. So if the

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1 affiant --
2 THE COURT: That's actually not true, right.
3 MR. HERMAN: No, no, that is true.
4 THE COURT: Well, we'll debate it in the briefs, not
5 now.
6 MR. WELBY: I think what the affiant is imputed to
7 have known would also be relevant, would be relevant also.
8 THE COURT: Imputed to have known?
9 MR. WELBY: Sure. If another law enforcement
10 officer had information and was working with the agents to
11 prepare that information, the officer would be -- the affiant
12 would be imputed to have the knowledge of the officers.
13 MR. HERMAN: The government is held to the knowledge
14 of all of its agents collectively.
15 THE COURT: I don't know if that's true with respect
16 to fraud on the Court. And I would like to see some briefing
17 on that. I've been -- that's a question in my mind that I
18 would like for the parties to try to answer for me if you
19 can.
20 MR. WELBY: I think it's going to be an important
21 question.
22 THE COURT: It's a very important question in this
23 case, because it does really have a big impact on what my
24 ultimate conclusion is. I agree with you. I don't know,
25 Mr. Welby, I haven't seen any cases that actually reflect

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1 that. Yes, normally law enforcement can -- they can impute
2 the knowledge in terms of, you know, what's going on in the
3 investigation, but when you're talking about Franks and
4 whether or not the affiant intentionally misled the Court by
5 either including information that the affiant knew was false
6 or intentionally omitting information that the affiant knew
7 was material and could have an impact on probable cause, I
8 have this huge question as to whether or not you can impute
9 the knowledge of somebody else for something that requires
10 some sort of intentional conduct.
11 Because that's what the exclusionary rule is all
12 about, right, is deterring that bad act. And I don't know if
13 bad acts of other agents that might have been unknown to the
14 affiant is something that you can impute to the affiant. And
15 I really would like to see some case law on that.
16 MR. HERMAN: We did cite case law.
17 THE COURT: Did you?
18 MR. HERMAN: Yes, in my opening memorandum.
19 THE COURT: I better go back and look at that.
20 MR. HERMAN: I'd be happy to find it for you again,
21 but basically this is maybe better for briefing later.
22 THE COURT: Yeah, and it's for argument later.
23 MR. HERMAN: We've briefed it before that the --
24 THE COURT: And I read those briefs. It's been a
25 while. But as we were preparing for this hearing it's a

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1 question that I clearly have in my head. And you guys have
2 the evidence that you want to put on that might go to that
3 point, and I'm not saying I'm not going to allow you to do
4 it, but there are limits to what I'm considering.
5 MR. REILLY: And, Judge, I don't have the legal
6 arguments now, but I do intend to present evidence -- and
7 this is more tomorrow. And we've got a witness who is
8 waiting to testify and I'm sure she's very anxious. But on
9 pages 10 and 11 of our brief, I think it was Document 277, we
10 did brief the cases that say in a Franks hearing requires an
11 evidentiary hearing to evaluate the veracity of the warrant
12 affidavit if a defendant makes a preliminary showing that the
13 affidavit contains an intentional or reckless falsehood.
14 Refusing to consider evidence beyond the affidavit would
15 contravene the purpose of a Franks hearing and would run
16 contrary to common sense.
17 THE COURT: Oh, yeah.
18 MR. REILLY: And it requires instead as we've stated
19 evaluating the affiant's state of mind requires us to view
20 all the evidence. And we go on to lay that out. And I also
21 think some of the cases, and it's a legal argument later. I
22 think the cases that counsel cited in large part were in
23 building probable cause they impute knowledge of other
24 officers.
25 But here I don't know how much that applies to this

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1 case because I'm not going to tell the Court what the Court's
2 job is, but we're trying to determine the affiant's state of
3 mind. And based on that I'm not going to go real far afield,
4 but we are going to present evidence that the affiant knew
5 that made them think they had probable cause for the
6 affidavit. The information they'd received had been
7 corroborated because the defense has filed a Franks motion.
8 So by the very nature of a Franks motion we're into certain
9 things beyond the affidavit if it's something the affiant
10 knew.
11 THE COURT: I agree with that. How far afield is
12 the question that you're talking about.
13 MR. REILLY: I understand, Judge. We don't want to
14 go too far afield.
15 THE COURT: Well, I'm sure you don't. All right.
16 We better get out there. Is there anything else?
17 MR. HOAG: No.
18 MR. WELBY: No, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: Okay. All right.
20 MR. REILLY: I'm sorry, Judge. The case agent, we
21 have Brett Johnson is the case agent. And I just want to
22 find out if there's any objection to him being present for
23 the testimony of CS1.
24 THE COURT: He is a witness, right?
25 MR. REILLY: He is witness, yes, Brett Johnson.

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1 MR. WELBY: Here's the issue with Johnson is --
2 Brett Johnson.
3 MR. HOAG: I thought you were saying Fred Johnson.
4 I said who the hell is Fred Johnson?
5 THE COURT: He's your witness.
6 MR. HOAG: Damn it.
7 MR. WELBY: He is the one that took the information
8 from CS1. CS1 has at least told Jack Harvey that he lied to
9 her or that he misled her or that he tricked her in some way.
10 And I would be concerned that with respect only to CS1 that
11 there could be some intimidation if he were allowed to stay
12 in the courtroom.
13 THE COURT: Why don't we exclude him for CS1.
14 MR. REILLY: I don't believe there would be
15 intimidation, but I'll --
16 MR. WELBY: Not intentional of course, but she may
17 feel limited in her ability to answer questions about Mr.
18 Johnson.
19 THE COURT: Other than CS1 do you have any objection
20 to Johnson being in the courtroom as the case agent?
21 MR. WELBY: No.
22 THE COURT: So he's out for CS1 but he can be in for
23 the others.
24 MR. HERMAN: Can we have a few minutes before we get
25 started?
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1 THE COURT: Sure. Oh, yeah. I'll be out at 9:45.
2 It's 9:40 now.
3 MS. TROG: Thank you, Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Thank you.
5 (Court in recess from 9:40 a.m. until 10:03 a.m.)
6 (The following proceedings continued in open court:)
7 THE COURT: Good morning. We're on the record in
8 the case of United States of America versus Dionne Gatling,
9 et al. The case number is 4:14-CR-88 RWS.
10 Counsel, please announce your presence for the
11 record.
12 MR. HOAG: Dean Hoag and Mike Reilly for the
13 government.
14 MS. TROG: JoAnn Trog for Mr. Gatling.
15 MR. HERMAN: Bob Herman for Andre Rush.
16 MR. HUMPHREY: Preston Humphrey for Timothy Rush.
17 MR. WELBY: Steve Welby for Mr. Gibbs.
18 THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the public and
19 the press, we're here for a suppression hearing this morning.
20 And like all court proceedings that you would all normally be
21 invited to remain and attend, however, this morning the first
22 witness that the government intends to call is a confidential
23 government source whose identity is not public or is not
24 supposed to be public. Concerns over that witness' security
25 prompted the government to file a motion last week asking

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1 that the courtroom be closed during that witness' testimony.
2 The second reason for the request for closure by the
3 government was that this case is unusual because some of the
4 issues that will be addressed at this hearing relate to an
5 ongoing criminal investigation or internal investigation,
6 information that ordinarily at this stage would not be
7 publicly disclosed. And those are investigations that are
8 ongoing in another state.
9 This first witness is likely to be questioned
10 extensively about those investigations. So the defendants
11 did make objections to the government's motion for closure.
12 I did not receive any objections from any other member of the
13 press or the public. And on Friday for the reasons that were
14 cited and set forth in my order, I did enter an order
15 granting the request for closure.
16 What that means is I am going to ask that all
17 members of the public leave the courtroom. The courtroom
18 will be locked during that witness' testimony, but will be
19 reopened after the witness has completed testifying, and will
20 remain open for the duration of this hearing, which is
21 expected to go for a couple of days.
22 If members of the press or public request it, the
23 Court will make a transcript of this first witness' testimony
24 publicly available after giving the parties an opportunity to
25 object and to make any redactions of any sensitive

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1 information that might come out in that testimony.
2 So right now, ladies and gentlemen, I'll ask the
3 marshals to assist in having everyone leave the courtroom
4 just for the purpose of this witness' testimony at this time.
5 Thank you.
6 Counsel, I'll ask for your assistance in making sure
7 that the only people remaining in the courtroom are people
8 who I have authorized in my order to be in the courtroom
9 since you have a better idea of who the folks are than I do.
10 MR. REILLY: Judge, these are members of the public
11 defender's office here. I don't think they represent
12 anybody. They are asking if they can stay and take notes.
13 I'll let the Court address the issue.
14 THE COURT: I should have probably mentioned that.
15 I did have a request from the -- who is here from the public
16 defender's office?
17 MR. MARSH: My name is Bill Marsh, Your Honor, I'm
18 here as well as Mike Mahon.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Do you both need to be here?
20 MR. MARSH: We were asked to be here by Kevin.
21 THE COURT: By Kevin Curran?
22 MR. WELBY: May we approach on that, Your Honor?
23 THE COURT: Yes, please do.
24 (The following proceedings were held at the bench:)
25 THE COURT: I talked to the public defender's office

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1 about possibly being appointed in this case for Mr. Gibbs. I
2 wanted them to see if they had any conflict in the event that
3 I needed to appoint them to come in while Mr. Welby was still
4 here for Mr. Gibbs because of your upcoming departure.
5 MR. WELBY: Right. And I asked to come up because
6 it's not open to the public yet that I have another
7 appointment pending a background investigation. Mr. Curran
8 spoke with me this morning and asked if he thought that I
9 knew of any conflict that the public defenders had. And I
10 recall that the public defenders represented Mr. Gatling at
11 some point in time in between Mr. Watkins and Ms. Trog. So I
12 don't know that they are going to be able to take over for
13 Mr. Gibbs, but it's not really my place to make that
14 decision.
15 THE COURT: Okay. That was something they were
16 supposed to be exploring for the Court. Does anybody have
17 any objection to these two lawyers from the public defender's
18 office sitting in?
19 MS. TROG: Could I just ask Mr. Gatling what, if
20 any -- I can't imagine there would be any difficulty, but if
21 I could just double check.
22 THE COURT: What I remember is I appointed them, and
23 he almost immediately asked for me --
24 MR. HUMPHREY: He had Brocca Morrison as his
25 attorney from the public defender's office and he asked for a

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1 new attorney immediately.
2 THE COURT: I don't know that he even talked to her.
3 Why don't you check with him to make sure he has no
4 objection.
5 MR. HOAG: Does he need to waive? Gatling? He's
6 already been represented by a public defender. And he's a
7 co-defendant, wouldn't that be a problem?
8 THE COURT: It could be.
9 MR. HOAG: I mean, if that --
10 THE COURT: They may not be able to represent him
11 anyway.
12 MR. WELBY: I have not discussed any of this with
13 Mr. Gibbs because I just became aware of it this morning.
14 MR. REILLY: And Mr. Gibbs would have to waive
15 before --
16 THE COURT: And Mr. Gibbs may not want the P.D. Let
17 me just tell them that we have too many questions and this
18 information gathering for them. And Kevin did ask me about
19 it and I said sure.
20 MR. WELBY: We're going to have a record.
21 MS. TROG: He has no objection. He said he had
22 never physically talked to anyone, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: But there's a concern about a potential
24 conflict, so I'm asking going to ask them to leave.
25 MS. TROG: Okay.

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1 THE COURT: We'll have a record. We can deal with
2 it later.
3 MR. HOAG: Yeah, them here is not going to change
4 anything.
5 THE COURT: So Mr. Gatling has no problem, you don't
6 have a problem. Do you have a problem with them being here?
7 MR. HOAG: Well, I think we have a potential
8 conflict, so I do have a problem.
9 THE COURT: With them sitting in?
10 MR. HOAG: Potential conflict.
11 MR. REILLY: Are Mr. Gatling and Mr. Gibbs prepared
12 to waive a conflict?
13 THE COURT: I'm not going to do that now. We're
14 just going to have them not stay, okay. Maybe we can ask
15 them to come up.
16 (Mr. Marsh and Mr. Mahon joined in the bench
17 conference.)
18 THE COURT: There is a concern over a potential
19 conflict with your office and one or more of the witnesses,
20 so I don't think it's a good idea after talking to the
21 lawyers for you guys to stay, okay. And I'll talk to Kevin
22 about that.
23 MR. MARSH: Well, thanks for considering.
24 THE COURT: Thanks for coming.
25 (The proceedings at the bench were concluded.)

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1 (The following proceedings were closed to the public
2 and are SEALED:)
3 THE COURT: Now, do we only have people who are
4 approved to be in the courtroom in the courtroom?
5 Okay. Mr. Hoag, why don't you call your witness.
6 MR. HOAG: I thought there was going to be some
7 preliminary thing with respect to the Court doing an
8 examination on her on her right to -- I thought you said
9 that.
10 THE COURT: Yes. Where is she?
11 MR. HOAG: She's been secreted. Can you get CS1?
12 THE COURT: Thank you for reminding me.
13 Please come forward and be sworn. Right here.
14 And this portion of the proceedings is closed to the
15 public, and this record is sealed until ordered otherwise.
16 We are going to refer to this witness throughout the
17 course of the proceedings as CS1.
18 MR. HOAG: Yes, ma'am.
19 THE COURT: But for my purposes I'm going to ask you
20 a few questions.
21 THE WITNESS: Okay.
22 THE COURT: Beginning with your name.
23 THE WITNESS: It's CS1.
24 THE COURT: And, CS1, have you been appointed
25 counsel in this case?

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1 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
2 THE COURT: And who has been appointed to represent
3 you?
4 THE WITNESS: Mr. -- I can't pronounce his name.
5 THE COURT: Mr. Newton.
6 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
7 THE COURT: Have you had a chance to talk to
8 Mr. Newton?
9 THE WITNESS: Yes.
10 THE COURT: And do you feel comfortable that he's
11 answered any questions that you have about testifying in this
12 matter?
13 THE WITNESS: Yes, he's done a phenomenal job.
14 THE COURT: Okay. And you're prepared to give
15 testimony in this case today?
17 THE COURT: And has any formal agreement -- have you
18 reached any formal agreement with the United States regarding
19 any immunity in this case --
20 THE WITNESS: No.
21 THE COURT: -- in relationship to your testimony?
22 THE WITNESS: No.
23 THE COURT: Counsel, does anyone have any questions
24 along this vein for this witness?
25 MR. HOAG: Not from the government, Your Honor.

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1 THE COURT: Defense counsel?
2 MR. HERMAN: Your Honor, I just wanted to say I'm
3 having trouble hearing the witness.
4 THE COURT: Okay. Please keep your voice up.
5 THE WITNESS: I sure will.
6 THE COURT: We might have to reboot our audio. We
7 think that it went down. But the court reporter is able to
8 get everything.
9 MS. TROG: Your Honor, on behalf of the defendants
10 we have no further inquiry.
11 THE COURT: Thank you, Ms. Trog.
12 MR. REILLY: Judge, may I approach the witness just
13 to give her a glass of water?
14 THE COURT: Yes, you may.
16 THE COURT: Mr. Hoag, are you ready to proceed with
17 your examination.
18 MR. HOAG: I am, Your Honor.
19 CS1,
20 Having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as
21 follows:
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. HOAG:
24 Q. Now, I'm going refer to you as CS1, okay?
25 A. Okay.
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1 Q. Is that fair to say?
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. And I'll try not to refer in any way that way often,
4 okay?
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. But let me start with in 2000, approximately 2009 did
7 you become a DEA confidential informant?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Okay. And who was it that you contacted prior to
10 becoming a confidential informant?
11 A. Jack Harvey.
12 Q. And Mr. Harvey is employed where?
13 A. At the time he was a DEA agent for Atlanta, Georgia.
14 Q. Okay. And you were signed up at that point in I
15 believe April of 2009 or somewhere in that neighborhood?
16 A. Somewhere in that neighborhood, yes, sir.
17 Q. Okay. And during the course of your assignment, all
18 right, who was your handler? Who was the controlling agent
19 as we call that?
20 A. At that time?
21 Q. Yes.
22 A. Jack Harvey.
23 Q. And what was the case that you were involved in?
24 A. Terry Bernard White.
25 Q. And how long was it that you worked with Mr. Harvey on
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1 that case?
2 A. It was well over a year.
3 Q. Okay. And without going into specifics, let me ask you
4 this, at the time you signed up or any time thereafter do you
5 have a criminal record and have you ever been arrested or
6 charged or convicted of any crimes?
7 A. No. No, sir.
8 Q. Okay. And have you ever been hospitalized or used
9 drugs in any way, shape, or form?
10 A. Hospitalized surgery wise, but not medically. Like for
11 surgery.
12 Q. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about drugs.
13 A. Oh, no, I never tried drugs.
14 Q. That's all we're talking about. And when you signed up
15 with Mr. Harvey, was there any conversation with respect to
16 how you would be compensated?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you ask for any compensation in exchange for your
19 work with Mr. Harvey?
20 A. No, sir.
21 Q. Okay. And throughout the course of Mr. White's case he
22 pled guilty, correct?
23 A. That is correct.
24 Q. All right. And you weren't paid any money during the
25 course of that up until the time he pled guilty, is that fair

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1 to say?
2 A. That is fair to say.
3 Q. Did you ever ask for any money?
4 A. No, I did not.
5 Q. Did you ask for any compensation in any way, shape, or
6 form?
7 A. No, I did not.
8 Q. At some point in time did Mr. Harvey inform you that he
9 was going to put you up for some award?
10 A. Prior to -- right before he was retiring, leaving the
11 company he acknowledged.
12 Q. If August the 1st or July the 31st of 2011 is the day
13 he retired, it would have been in that time frame?
14 A. A couple weeks prior to that.
15 Q. Okay. And did he tell you what it was going to be?
16 A. No, he did not.
17 Q. Okay. He just indicated what?
18 A. He just said I put you in for a reward because you
19 basically made the case.
20 Q. Okay. Did there come a time then when you went from
21 working for Mr. Harvey to working for someone else?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. And when was that time period?
24 A. After I received the message from Mr. Harvey that he
25 was retiring, then I received a call from Atlanta asking me

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1 to stay on board.
2 Q. And who was that phone call from?
3 A. Keith Cromer.
4 Q. And what was Mr. Cromer's position with -- he was with
5 DEA Atlanta also?
6 A. DEA Atlanta.
7 Q. Same group Mr. Harvey was in?
9 Q. At some point in time were you introduced to
10 Mr. Cromer?
11 A. Yes, I was.
12 Q. And who was it then that you were supposed to work with
13 in relation to Mr. Cromer?
14 A. David, Fred -- it was several; David, Fred, Tony, Mara,
15 I think.
16 Q. You're talking about agents --
17 A. Agents.
18 Q. -- in the group?
19 A. Yes, sir, agents that were in the group.
20 Q. Okay. And who was your controlling agent that you
21 know?
22 A. David at one point, Fred at one point, Tony at one
23 point.
24 Q. Now, let me direct your attention to your understanding
25 of how it is that you were to perform your duties. What were

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1 you told by either Mr. Cromer or other agents that you were
2 supposed to do?
3 A. Basically that they would set up for me for Hispanics,
4 that I would either go pick up money or drugs and bring it
5 back or make phone calls.
6 Q. Okay. And this was some time in 2011?
7 A. That seems to be about right.
8 Q. Okay. Was it immediately after you were involved -- I
9 mean, that Mr. Harvey retired or was it some period of time
10 later?
11 A. No, the contact was immediately after Mr. Harvey
12 retired.
13 Q. Okay. And so you then began -- what was the promise to
14 you with respect to what your activity was by the agents or
15 Mr. Cromer in particular?
16 A. Well, when we met to discuss would I stay on board, I
17 asked what would I have to do. And I was told just what I
18 just advised you in regards to the Hispanics. And that's
19 when I said okay. And can I get -- if I get something big.
20 He said, "You'll get a lot of money." And I said, "Can I get
21 Demetrius Flenory's time cut?" And he said, "We can work on
22 that."
23 Q. And you mentioned Demetrius Flenory's name to
24 Mr. Cromer?
25 A. Yes, I did.
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1 Q. And it was about perhaps helping him out?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That's Demetrius Flenory?
4 A. For a time reduction.
5 Q. Now, in the course of your conversations and your
6 responsibilities did they indicate to you, did anybody
7 indicate to you whether you were going to have to testify in
8 any shape, way, or form?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Okay. You were told you would not have to testify?
11 A. That is correct in the beginning. They would go back
12 to Mexico once they do the drug bust with the Hispanics.
13 Q. All right. Now, I take it then Mr. Cromer in the
14 course of dealing with you knew about Mr. Flenory?
15 A. Yes. He knew about Demetrius Flenory and our
16 relationship as friends, yes.
17 Q. And let's just get into that. What was your
18 relationship with Mr. Flenory?
19 A. He was my friend --
20 Q. Okay.
21 A. -- or is my friend.
22 Q. Was there any business relationship?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Did you have any business relationship with him?
25 A. Yes, I have his life rights with creative control and

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1 his power of attorney.
2 Q. And how long ago was it that you became acquainted with
3 Mr. Flenory?
4 A. I would say 2000 -- he got incarcerated in 2005. In
5 2003, 2002 is when I met him.
6 Q. So at that time, we're talking about 2011, 2012, you
7 had known him for eight or nine years?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. And you had then I guess business dealings with him?
10 A. For many years.
11 Q. You had visited him, fair?
12 A. Yes, for many years.
13 Q. Okay. And you communicated that to Mr. Cromer; is that
14 correct?
15 A. Yes, sir, I did.
16 Q. Now, let's talk about someone else. Let's talk about
17 Mr. Cromer, okay.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. At some point in time after 2011, which is when you
20 became a CS or continued as a CS, all right, did you develop
21 a relationship with Mr. Cromer?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. And what was the nature of that relationship?
24 A. It started as friends, then we became close friends,
25 then we became sexually engaged --

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1 Q. Okay.
2 A. -- partners.
3 Q. Over a period of how many months or a year or what
4 would you say?
5 A. I would say maybe six -- the sexual intercourse didn't
6 start till maybe after six months, five months, something
7 like that.
8 Q. Okay. So that would have been maybe some time in 2012?
9 A. That could be right, yes.
10 Q. And would it be fair to say that he was with you on a
11 constant basis?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. How often did he visit you or was he with you?
14 A. Five to six days a week.
15 Q. Five, six days a week?
16 A. Out of seven.
17 Q. Okay. Now, did there come a time when you had
18 conversations with another individual? Let's talk about a
19 Dionne Gatling.
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Okay. And how did you know Mr. Gatling?
22 A. I knew him through phone conversations originally
23 through him knowing Demetrius Flenory as his good friend.
24 Q. Speak up a little bit.
25 A. I knew Demetrius Flenory as his good friend. They were

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1 good friends I guess back in the day.
2 Q. So Demetrius Flenory was friends with Mr. Gatling?
3 A. From my understanding of both parties.
4 Q. Was there a nickname that you knew Mr. Gatling by?
5 A. Cuff.
6 Q. Cuff, okay. And what kind of relationship did you have
7 with Cuff; that is, how did you know him?
8 A. Well, he called me one day years ago and just said that
9 he was Demetrius' friend, as many people do, and that how was
10 his brother doing and, you know, tell him to send my love, et
11 cetera, just things of that nature. Just a general
12 conversation.
13 Q. Okay. So they were basically just social contacts that
14 you had with him?
16 Q. Were there any times when you, say, e-mailed him or
17 texted him?
18 A. Yes. So he knew in conversation with myself that we
19 were working on Louis Burrell and another gentleman was
20 trying to get me to sign my life rights for Demetrius over to
21 them so they could try to shop for a film deal, and I
22 wouldn't do that. And I was having correspondence with
23 Dionne Gatling in regards to that because he was trying to
24 come up with something.
25 Q. So the initial contact with Mr. Gatling is more of a

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1 business relationship and nothing else at that point, is that
2 fair to say?
4 Q. Okay. Now, how about an individual by the name of
5 Fidel Suarez, how did you make acquaintance with Mr. Suarez?
6 A. I made a -- he called and again wanted to know how
7 Demetrius Flenory was doing, tell him he sends his love, did
8 I have a mailing address for him. And I provided that, and
9 that was about it on the initial call.
10 Q. Okay. And had you talked to Mr. Flenory, Demetrius
11 Flenory, about Mr. Suarez at some point in time?
12 A. At some point in time during the phone call. I'd
13 usually give him a rundown on who calls and showing their
14 support.
15 Q. And did he indicate to you that he knew Mr. Suarez and
16 in what capacity?
17 A. He did. He just said he did time with him in the
18 county jail and that he'd actually beat his case. And that
19 was about it.
20 Q. And when you say "county jail," do you know where, what
21 county jail?
22 A. I don't right recall a visit before, but it's in
23 Michigan. Is it St. Clair County Jail? I think it's St.
24 Clair County Jail.
25 Q. Okay. Now, did there come a time in your relationship

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1 with Mr. Gatling and Mr. Suarez where the conversation turned
2 to narcotics, drugs?
3 A. Yes, sir.
4 Q. Okay. Approximately when was that time?
5 A. I would say 2000 -- mid year 2012.
6 Q. Okay. All right. And in 2012 how did that
7 conversation begin? What was it that precipitated that
8 conversation?
9 A. Well, the initiation was Fidel Suarez. He called and
10 made some conversation about he needed to get rid of some
11 type of pills, and did I know somebody that wanted to buy
12 them. I was in a call with Keith Cromer at the time on the
13 speaker in my car, and Keith said, "Tell him yes." And
14 shortly thereafter I received a call from an agent in
15 California, and that's how it started off transpiring from
16 Fidel.
17 Q. Okay. Was there ever a time when you were asked to
18 give a phone number to Fidel at any point in time?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. What were the circumstances of that information?
21 A. Well, a couple times when I was asked to give -- Fidel
22 called and asked for Cuff's phone number.
23 Q. Did he say who?
24 A. He said, "Buddy told me to get Cuff's phone number,"
25 and I gave him Cuff's phone number.

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1 Q. Who is "Buddy" for the record?
2 A. I'm assuming he's speaking of Demetrius Flenory.
3 Q. So you've known him by that name, correct?
4 A. Well, when he says Buddy as he calls, yes, sir.
5 Q. And did you do that?
6 A. Yes, I did.
7 Q. Okay. Now, during this period of time you just
8 indicated, okay, that Mr. Cromer was with you, Mr. Cromer,
9 did he overhear any of the conversations you had had with
10 either Mr. Gatling or Mr. Suarez at that time?
11 A. Yes, with Mr. Suarez at that time as well as
12 Mr. Gatling later on.
13 Q. Focusing in July of 2012, did you have a conversation
14 with Mr. Suarez related to a trip that you may take?
15 A. Yes. So --
16 Q. What were the circumstances of that?
17 A. Fidel asked me would I come to St. Louis because he was
18 going -- he was going to be traveling to St. Louis, and I
19 told him no.
20 Q. Okay. Did he tell you why he wanted you in St. Louis?
21 A. He didn't specify why he wanted me in St. Louis, no, he
22 did not.
23 Q. And did he contact you later on?
24 A. Yes, he did.
25 Q. Okay. And when was that approximately?

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1 A. He contacted me when he was in St. Louis stating that
2 he had a truck up there, and that from my understanding if I
3 recollect he didn't have the phone number and he had this F'n
4 truck for the stuff with Cuff that didn't show up.
5 Q. And that would be August the 5th of 2012?
6 A. Yeah, around that time, July or August.
7 Q. All right. What were the circumstances leading up --
8 where were you when you received the call, and who, if
9 anyone, else was there?
10 A. So when I received that call it was on a Sunday. I was
11 at home cooking spaghetti, and Keith Cromer was at my house
12 at that time. And when they called, Fidel was upset because
13 he said he had the F'n truck up there. And I can't remember
14 honestly if it was heroin or coke. And I said, "What's going
15 on?" "I got all this shipment up here and this dude is
16 playing games." And he was using a lot of profanity. And he
17 said, "See if you can get in contact with him." And I had an
18 alternate number for Cuff, and I reached out to Cuff and
19 asked Cuff. And he said, "He hasn't tried to call me." And
20 said, "He's calling you at this number." And I don't recall
21 the number but I know it was a (314) if I'm not mistaken.
22 And I ended up getting them on the phone together.
23 Q. So you subsequently made contact with both and
24 exchanged the other numbers that they might have had, okay?
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1 Q. All right. And subsequently they contacted each other?
3 Q. All right. Now, that was on a Sunday?
4 A. Correct. That is correct.
5 Q. Did Mr. Cromer, Agent Cromer, was he present during
6 those conversations?
7 A. Yes, he was.
8 Q. And was he listening in on those conversations?
9 A. Yes, he was.
10 Q. Okay. And at the time he was listening in, he could
11 hear what both parties were saying, correct?
12 A. Yes, I had them on speaker phone.
13 Q. Okay. Now subsequent to that did you have contact then
14 with St. Louis DEA?
15 A. Keith Cromer reached out to St. Louis DEA, and I got on
16 the phone and spoke to an agent, but I don't know who it was.
17 Q. Okay. But the substance of your conversation regarding
18 the dope deal and the truck and that, okay, did you relay
19 that to St. Louis DEA?
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. To the agents involved?
22 A. To the agent I spoke to on the phone.
23 Q. And Mr. Cromer had already contacted them; is that
24 correct?
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1 Q. That's how they got in touch with you?
3 Q. And would it be fair to say you had two, three, five --
4 how many conversations with the St. Louis agents did you have
5 about this August the 5th conversation?
6 A. I had one in regards to the overall August the 5th
7 conversation, but I probably had a total of three
8 conversations if my memory is serving me correct with the St.
9 Louis DEA department.
10 Q. And they were asking you questions about your
11 relationship with the individuals, is that fair to say?
13 Q. Okay. Now, let me ask you when you talked to
14 Mr. Suarez, when you talked to the agents and Mr. Cromer, did
15 you indicate to them at any point in time that you had
16 obtained a photograph of Mr. Suarez?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Okay. How did that happen?
19 A. I showed it to --
20 Q. What were the circumstances?
21 A. I showed it to Keith. As a matter of fact, it was
22 Keith Cromer.
23 Q. And you indicated earlier that it was a result of
24 exchanging what, on Facebook or what, some social media?
25 A. No, the picture came from Fidel sending me the picture

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1 to my phone, a picture of him so I could put him in my
2 contact list.
3 Q. Okay. Did you ask him for a picture?
4 A. I asked him for a picture. I asked Fidel for a
5 picture.
6 Q. Okay. Let me hand you what is marked Government's
7 Exhibit --
8 MR. HOAG: May I approach?
9 THE COURT: You may.
10 Q. -- M-5.
11 A. That's him.
12 Q. That's him?
13 A. That's him, and that's the picture.
14 Q. Okay. Now, did you ever meet Mr. Suarez in person?
15 A. No, I never met him.
16 Q. Now, how about Mr. Gatling, okay, when these
17 conversations were going along; that is, August the 5th and
18 prior to that, all right, had you met Mr. Gatling?
19 A. No. I had not met Mr. Gatling at that time, no.
20 Q. Okay. Did there come a time then when you met
21 Mr. Gatling?
22 A. Yes, he called and said he was coming to Atlanta and he
23 wanted to take me to dinner.
24 Q. Okay. And when did that occur?
25 A. I don't remember the date.

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1 Q. Okay. After the August the 5th conversation?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And the truck?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did you ever talk to either Mr. Suarez or Mr. Gatling
6 about the delivery on August the 5th of 2012?
7 A. I had a conversation with Fidel Suarez. He called
8 upset, furious because -- this was after the fact of the
9 August the 5th. He was mad because he said that Cuff stiffed
10 him and didn't pay him all the money for the drugs. I don't
11 remember if it was heroin or cocaine, I honestly don't
12 remember, but he didn't pay him all the money for the blocks,
13 whichever it was.
14 Q. All right. But that photograph is I'd say a fair and
15 accurate description of Mr. Suarez that you gave?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. What did you do with that?
18 A. It was in my phone.
19 Q. But, I mean, did you provide it to anybody?
20 A. Oh, yes, I gave it to Keith Cromer, yes.
21 Q. And subsequently --
22 A. I may have even sent that over to -- excuse me, I sent
23 that to Keith Cromer as well as to confirm with Los Angeles.
24 Q. That was a separate thing?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And you've seen that from DEA St. Louis, correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, let's go to November of 2012. Did there come a
4 point when you were working with Mr. Cromer where it was
5 decided that you would no longer be talking with Mr. Gatling?
7 Q. Okay. And how did that come about?
8 A. Because I told him I didn't want to deal with Dionne.
9 Q. Okay. And when you told him that, what did he do?
10 A. Then he said, "Well, that's fine, I'll let him talk to
11 CS2." And that was it.
12 Q. Okay. CS2, is that fair to say?
13 A. From my understanding that's CS2.
14 Q. Let's refer to her as CS2 from now on.
15 A. I'm sorry. No, that's okay. I didn't know.
16 Q. We want to keep her out of it also. In addition to
17 you, we want to keep her out of it also.
18 A. Okay. I apologize.
19 MR. HOAG: I'd ask that the record be stricken of
20 the name.
21 THE COURT: Yes, we'll refer to her as CS2.
22 Q. Okay. Now, that introduction took place in November of
23 2012, is that fair to say?
24 A. That's fair to say.
25 Q. Okay. And how did it go? What did you do? What did
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1 CS2 do and who showed up?
2 A. Well, Dionne asked me did I know anybody -- prior to
3 the meeting he asked me if I knew anybody that he could get
4 some work from. Basically they could front him some work,
5 some drug transaction. And I said, "Well, I don't really
6 know anybody but I'll think about it and let you know." And
7 we had a further -- Keith said, "Tell him you know somebody."
8 Because I told him everybody I knew was locked up, I think is
9 the wording that I used. And then Keith said, "Tell him you
10 know a lady." And that's what I did, which was CS2.
11 Q. So at that point in time you were out of the
12 investigation with respect to Mr. Gatling, is that fair to
13 say?
14 A. Other than us meeting for dinner, that was fair to say.
15 Q. Okay. There was some contact but it had nothing to do
16 with any drug transactions, is that fair to say?
17 A. Right, other than the night us four met at the Varsity,
18 a little restaurant we went to.
19 Q. Do you see Mr. Gatling in the courtroom today?
20 A. To be quite honest, I don't --
21 Q. Well, you want to stand up and look.
22 A. I think that's him on the end.
23 Q. Here?
24 A. No, him. I'm sorry, I've only seen him twice.
25 Q. Okay. That's fine.

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1 A. I apologize.
2 Q. Now, let's go to after you are out of it, okay; that
3 is, out of having anything to do with Mr. Gatling. There
4 came a time when Mr. Gatling was indicted. Did you become
5 aware of that?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Okay. And do you remember exactly when that was or
8 approximately?
9 A. I don't remember approximately.
10 Q. Does April or May of 2014 sound about correct?
11 A. I don't remember. That maybe could be correct, but I
12 don't remember.
13 Q. That's fine. All right. Now, your relationship with
14 Mr. Cromer, okay, you indicated it was romantic at some time.
15 Did it deteriorate or did it change, I should say?
16 A. It changed.
17 Q. Okay. And it changed over a period of time; is that
18 correct?
19 A. That is absolutely correct.
20 Q. Now, during this period of time you were working, okay,
21 what things were you doing as a cooperator and an informant?
22 A. They would tell me to meet them and go pick up money or
23 go pick up drugs at a certain location, and then I would show
24 up. And they would say, okay, we want you to pick up -- one
25 example was go pick up $270,000 and then we're going to bring

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1 them back the drugs. Most cases I always meet with all the
2 agents, or at least three or four, when it was something of
3 that nature. And every time I'd go, I'd end up not going to
4 pick up the drugs or not picking up the money.
5 Q. At any rate you were assigned certain things to do; is
6 that correct?
7 A. Correct. That is correct.
8 Q. Among them were there phone calls?
9 A. Oh, yes, and phone calls too, yes, sir.
10 Q. You were asked to make phone calls?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Now, Mr. Cromer, okay, did he ever give you a phone
13 number and ask you to give it to another agent?
14 A. Yes, sir, he was at my house one morning on his way to
15 his meeting.
16 MR. HERMAN: I'm sorry, I can't hear, Your Honor.
17 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry.
18 THE COURT: Can you speak up, please?
19 A. He was at my house one morning on his way to work for a
20 meeting. He has meetings once a week. And he said, "Hey,
21 take this number," it was on a white piece of paper, and
22 call -- I can't remember if it was David or Fred or Tony, I
23 don't remember which agent, and he had said, "Give them this
24 information." I said, "For what?" He said, "Don't ask me
25 any questions, don't worry about it, just do this for me." I
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1 said, "Okay."
2 Q. And the information related to an individual by the
3 name of --
4 A. Bootsie from Decatur, Georgia.
5 Q. Now, while you were talking with the agents in St.
6 Louis about Mr. Gatling, okay, and Mr. Suarez, did Mr. Cromer
7 give you any numbers or tell you to give these numbers to any
8 of the agents there?
9 A. Could you repeat that?
10 Q. Did Mr. Cromer hand you any notes or whatever and
11 say -- tell you to call the St. Louis agents and tell them
12 this is the number?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Like Bootsie?
15 A. No.
16 Q. That's the only time that ever happened in the course
17 of your relationship with him?
18 A. Other than CS2 was to give me numbers, which had
19 nothing to do with Cuff, it was on a separate instance for
20 Diego. She was to provide me numbers for a gentleman named
21 Diego, but that had nothing do with Dionne Gatling.
22 Q. But there was none of that with respect to Mr. Gatling
23 or Mr. Suarez from Agent Cromer, is that fair to say?
24 A. No, sir, there's not.
25 Q. Okay. Now, we were talking about the relationship

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1 between you and Mr. Harvey -- I mean, Mr. Cromer.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Did there come a time when you contacted Mr. Harvey?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And you remember when that was?
6 A. I contacted him several times, so I don't remember when
7 it was exactly.
8 Q. And that would have been over a period of time, is that
9 fair to say?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. You called him, wanted to talk to him, didn't talk to
12 him?
13 A. I talked to him.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. I talked to him.
16 Q. But was there a time before that that you beat around
17 the bush or didn't really tell him what you wanted to do?
18 A. Well, you are correct. I had several conversations
19 with him, and he would ask me how am I doing, and I said
20 fine. And how is the group doing? And I said, "They are not
21 you." I remember saying that. And he said, "Well, what's
22 going on?" I said, "Oh, nothing, everything is okay." And,
23 you know, I was a little reluctant to say anything.
24 Q. Subsequently, though, you sat down with him and talked
25 to him or you were on a trip?

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1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Or what?
3 A. No, we were on a phone call.
4 Q. On a phone call?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Okay. And you told him what? Just a summary of what
7 you told him.
8 MR. WELBY: I'm sorry, can we clarify who we're
9 talking about now.
10 MR. HOAG: We're talking about Mr. Harvey and the
11 conversation.
12 MR. WELBY: Thank you.
13 A. I told him that I thought there was some wrongdoing
14 within the government, and I didn't trust anybody, and I
15 didn't know who to call and tell, and that I was sleeping
16 with Keith Cromer at one point and how the relationship
17 started. And presented him with facts within things -- he
18 asked me a lot of questions, and I answered his questions.
19 And I told him I didn't know what to do, and that I just
20 think there's a lot of illegal stuff going on.
21 Q. All right. Did you indicate to him that you had
22 received some payments that you didn't know why you received?
23 A. Yes, I did. I told him I received an $80,000 check,
24 and I don't know why I received it other than "It's for
25 everything you're doing" is what I was told. And he said,

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1 "They didn't give you an explanation?" And I said, "Not
2 really."
3 Q. Okay. So you received an $80,000 check some time in --
4 do you remember when it was?
5 A. I don't remember. I don't remember when, but I did
6 receive it. But I don't remember when I received it.
7 Q. Okay. And as far as you knew you didn't know what it
8 was for?
9 A. Right. I didn't know what it was for because I told
10 Mr. Harvey I still had a bank account and they could come and
11 get it, to return it back to them because I didn't know what
12 it was for. And that's the one thing he promptly called
13 because I just thought that was too much.
14 Q. Now, the agents had been paying you periodically on a
15 monthly basis, is that fair to say?
16 A. That's fair to say 100 percent.
17 Q. What was your understanding about that?
18 A. That's just for me making the phone calls and going
19 back and forth with the Hispanics.
20 Q. Was there any agreement between you or anyone else in
21 DEA about your rent?
22 A. Yes, so they said for 12 months we'll pay -- when I --
23 he said for me to move from my home, and for 12 months we'll
24 take care of your rent.
25 Q. Did he tell you why he thought you needed to move?

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1 A. Because Cuff knew -- I said Cuff knew my address from
2 us corresponding years ago in regards to the movie situation.
3 And he said, "Yeah, because that broke mother 'huh' has put
4 three bodies in a trunk." He just killed three people and
5 put bodies in a trunk or something to that affect.
6 Q. And your understanding with Mr. Cromer now, okay?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Did you talk to anybody else about this arrangement?
9 A. Yeah, well, the Atlanta office knew that I was moving,
10 for the apartments.
11 Q. That's what you were told?
12 A. Yes, that's what I was told.
13 Q. Okay. And ostensibly it was for your protection
14 against perhaps Mr. Gatling or someone else?
15 A. Correct. Or anyone else, correct.
16 Q. And during this period of time, some time during this
17 period of time you received some money, did you not, for the
18 Terry Crews case?
19 A. Terry White.
20 Q. Or White, I mean, I'm sorry.
21 A. It was 50 something thousand dollars for that case.
22 Q. Does 55,000 sound about right?
23 A. Yeah, that does sound about right.
24 Q. And that was for your assistance to Jack Harvey in the
25 Terry White case?

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1 A. Well, that and I also contributed to my jewelery that
2 was left in Terry White's house during the time that they
3 seized it and I didn't obtain it. Which was a Chopard
4 bracelet or Roberto Coin piece, and those pieces of jewelery
5 my husband bought me before he passed away and was probably
6 worth 30 or 40,000, so, yes, I would say that.
7 Q. But at any rate, that was part of the proceedings --
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. -- from the forfeiture?
11 Q. And after you informed Agent Harvey about this
12 relationship and how it had gone sour, did you then have any
13 conversations with any other people from DEA?
14 A. Yes. So after Jack said, "Well, can I say anything?"
15 And I said, "Well, I don't want you to because I don't trust
16 anybody within the government." He said, "No, you can trust
17 this person. I'm going to make a few phone calls." And I
18 said, "Only if you really trust them, then I'll take your
19 word." And then I received a call to meet Jack -- or Keith
20 Cromer's boss at Atlanta Bread Company -- Atlanta Bread
21 Company. And so I met Keith's boss and his boss's boss at
22 the restaurant.
23 Q. And subsequently you have been interviewed, is that
24 correct, on a number of occasions?
25 A. A number.
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1 Q. Without going into the details.
2 A. Yes, sir, a number of occasions.
3 Q. And has anyone bribed you or asked you not to testify
4 or not to give information about Mr. Cromer or any of the
5 information you had?
6 A. No, other than the district attorney that I met with
7 from St. Louis prior to you, just asked me to hold off on my
8 affidavit for --
9 Q. We'll get to that later.
10 A. Oh, okay. So no, no one has given me --
11 Q. You haven't been bribed or in any way, shape, or form,
12 provided any money to keep your mouth quiet or anything like
13 that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. Now, let's talk about the filings that you were
16 involved in.
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Did you become or had you -- you were aware of the
19 indictment, correct?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. You went online you say to Pacer or whatever it is that
22 you went online?
23 A. The government website, Pacer.gov.
24 Q. It's a publication that you can get the indictment and
25 whatever else is there, correct?

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1 A. Yes, you pay a fee and you get it.
2 Q. And in March of 2015, okay, did you have occasion to go
3 online and find any pleadings by the defense in this case?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. All right. Do you remember what they were or can you
6 generally tell us what they were?
7 A. It was just statements of the case, and it was from I
8 think Cuff's lawyer, Dionne Gatling's lawyer, and it was
9 exposing me and my employment at the time and the address.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. And I was furious.
12 Q. So you went online, you look at this, it's a pleading
13 basically, and your name is in it?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. And your address is in it?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Were there emails or text messages that were also among
18 it?
19 A. Emails attached. There were emails attached as well.
20 Q. You indicated you were furious?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. What did you do in relation to that?
23 A. I reached out to call the agent, the DEA agent here in
24 St. Louis.
25 Q. All right. Let me back up and just ask you, okay,

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1 you're no longer dealing with Mr. Cromer because there was an
2 investigation, is that fair to say?
4 Q. Okay. So the only agents you were dealing with then
5 were the ones that were under him, all right, Mr. Davidson,
6 Todd Davidson, and Cindy?
7 A. Right, Todd Davidson and Cindy.
8 Q. All right. So you indicated you reached out to DEA St.
9 Louis?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. All right. And did anybody call you right back?
12 A. No, I kept calling leaving messages.
13 Q. How many days would you say --
14 A. I would say probably three or four days. It could have
15 been less, it could have been more.
16 Q. Was there a point in time when you reached out, okay,
17 to talk to the judge, okay, in the case? You saw who the
18 judge was?
19 A. Yes. So at that point in time then I don't know which
20 order I did it. I'm pretty sure I called the judge first and
21 I talked to I guess the assistant or secretary. And I said,
22 "This is crazy, I'm getting messages and calls in regards to
23 this. And my name is in something and that, you know, I'm in
24 fear for my life." At the time I said for something that I
25 shouldn't be. And I wanted to talk to the judge. I got the

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1 name off the documents, the paperwork, and she said, "Let me
2 have someone call you back."
3 Q. Okay. And who called you back?
4 A. I think it was you guys, if I'm not mistaken.
5 Q. Someone from my office?
6 A. Someone from your office because I think it was before
7 you guys got the case.
8 Q. Does the name Matt Drake sound right?
9 A. That's it, Matthew Drake.
10 Q. And you talked to Matt Drake; is that correct?
11 A. Yes, I talked to him on the phone and he flew down and
12 met with him personally.
13 Q. And were you satisfied with the response you got
14 basically or did you take other action?
15 A. I was not satisfied because he didn't -- he defended
16 the DEA. Yeah, I wasn't satisfied.
17 Q. I'm just asking you whether or not you were satisfied.
18 A. No.
19 Q. And what, if anything, you did after that?
20 A. Then I called the defense attorney.
21 Q. So you made a call to Mr. Watkins', okay, office?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. You talked to an associate?
24 A. I think it was an associate.
25 Q. Is that Mr. Wallach?

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1 A. Yes. I'm not sure of his name.
2 Q. And you expressed to him what, okay?
3 A. I said that my name is in something and you guys are
4 exposing me for something, and you haven't even had a
5 discussion with me, and I'm furious about it. You exposed
6 the company I was at at that time and all of this
7 information. And I said some of this stuff is just not true.
8 Q. Okay. And you told him that some of the information
9 there was not true; is that correct?
11 Q. Now, the information, all right, that you talked to him
12 about, what, if any, information was it that upset you aside
13 from your name being in the paperwork?
14 A. The Demetrius Flenory portion, because he didn't -- now
15 I'm going off memory of the paperwork. Is that I went to
16 Atlanta to seek money -- I went to Atlanta office to turn
17 Cuff in, and I talked to agents to turn him over.
18 Q. And that didn't occur?
19 A. That didn't occur.
20 Q. You've already told us how it was with Mr. Cromer?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And the investigation, and that's how it started and
23 that's how it went. And you felt that that was a
24 mischaracterization. It also indicated Mr. Flenory was the
25 organizer or leader of that, and you don't believe that, you

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1 don't think that's true?
2 A. That's not true, correct.
3 Q. There was some conversation with you and Mr. Suarez,
4 okay, where he mentioned Meech or Buddy, but aside from that,
5 he wasn't the one that was initiating this contact?
7 Q. That is between Mr. Suarez and Mr. Gatling.
8 A. And myself were setting it up, that is correct.
9 Q. That's my next question. In effect really you were the
10 one that set up the -- that conversation or those
11 conversations?
13 Q. All right. And so you were upset with the
14 interpretation that the agents took about the information
15 regarding Mr. Flenory, is that fair to say?
16 A. That is correct, because he didn't have anything to do
17 with anything. So correct.
18 Q. That's fair to say.
19 A. Okay.
20 Q. Okay. Did there come a time then now after you talked
21 to the agents, talked to the U.S. Attorney's Office here in
22 St. Louis, okay, they came down at some point in time and
23 talked to you, is that fair to say?
25 Q. And did there come a time then when you had a number of
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1 incidents involving threats?
3 Q. Okay. And this was before you actually talked to the
4 defense attorneys, you had received some threats, what you
5 considered to be threats, is that fair to say?
6 A. I did receive threats, before or after I don't recall,
7 but I did receive several threats.
8 Q. And among the threats that you received was some
9 communication --
10 A. Phone call.
11 Q. -- over the phone?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. At your office?
14 A. Yes, several phone calls.
15 Q. And what was the substance of that call?
16 A. I don't recall -- you paid informant -- or "How does it
17 feel to be a paid informant and you're dead."
18 Q. Okay. Did you receive any -- do you think you were
19 followed at any point or did you tell the agents that you
20 thought you were being followed?
21 A. Yes, I did. But if I can just say this too. Prior to
22 the phone call with the calling my job, prior to that they
23 called several times playing as a customer --
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. -- asking me questions about the company and, "Are you

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1 a supervisor?" And I said, "I'm in a management role," and
2 so on and so forth, which led up to the call back of the
3 threat.
4 Q. And those are documented as to when that happened?
5 A. Yes. A few of those calls are documented.
6 Q. Like March the 6th and March 7th?
7 A. That's correct.
8 Q. Before your contact with Mr. Wallach, okay?
9 A. Could be before. I don't know if it was before.
10 Q. You made reports and DEA made reports; is that correct?
12 Q. Or at least you reported it and they documented it?
14 Q. There were others, were there not, okay, where you felt
15 you were being followed?
16 A. I know I was being followed, yes, sir.
17 Q. And someone was knocking at your door where you lived?
18 A. Twice. And we didn't open the door. I called the
19 police.
20 Q. And you reported those, is that fair to say?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. I'm going to hand you what has been marked Government's
23 Exhibit 28A, okay, before I hand you something else.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. And tell us what those are and --

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1 A. At the top it's text messages. I don't know who the
2 first two, "Can u guys come to:" "Sure." "K." I don't know
3 what that portion is about. The phone calls at the bottom is
4 a screenshot of my company's --
5 Q. Okay. Go through the rest of them and just identify
6 them if you can.
7 A. And that's more screenshots from my company's phone at
8 the office I guess.
9 Q. Yep.
10 A. Same with the third one. So I was forwarding this to
11 the Atlanta team, DEA Atlanta team. And then I can't
12 remember that fourth one, I'm sorry, the one at the bottom of
13 page 2. I don't know what that --
14 THE COURT: Is this all Exhibit 28A?
15 MR. HOAG: 23A is what I thought it said. 28A.
16 A. 28A. And then I apologize, I can't read the other one
17 on page 3 either. I'm not sure what that is.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. That's the car. That's the car that was following me.
20 That didn't have the tag number or anything on it on page 3
21 at the bottom.
22 Q. Are there any phone numbers with a (573) index?
23 A. (773)?
24 Q. I'm sorry, (773).
25 A. Yes. That was the number the call came in from the
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1 threats.
2 Q. Okay. And that was to your office, and that was the
3 one that they said basically, "You're dead, bitch" or "How
4 does it feel to be an informant?"
5 A. Yes. "How does it feel to be a paid informant?"
6 Q. All right. Let me hand you Government's Exhibit M-32,
7 okay. You recognize that?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Who is Bey-Bey or --
10 A. Samuel Jefferson.
11 Q. Okay. And how do you know him?
12 A. He called -- he has called previously in regards to
13 Meech as well as Terry Flenory saying that -- he's their --
14 they are his uncle -- not by blood, but he said I call I him
15 my unc because we used to gamble together and things like
16 that when they were young.
17 Q. And he was an associate of Meech. Do you know if he
18 was an associate of Gatling?
19 A. Yes, he was.
20 Q. Okay. And you indicated that there were a number of
21 calls, okay. When you talked to Mr. Suarez and Mr. Gatling
22 on August the 5th of 2012 --
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. -- is that correct?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. I'm going to hand you records related to --
2 MR. HOAG: This is M-19, Your Honor, okay.
3 Q. Would you take a look at the target phone, okay.
4 A. That's my number, my old number.
5 Q. That's my question. Could you -- it's no longer your
6 number, right?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. Can you read it for the record just to indicate that
9 that is your number?
10 A. Yes. (770) 633-9119.
11 Q. Okay. This information from Bey-Bey, which alludes to
12 your daughter and you're getting out of this gangster stuff
13 and blah, blah, blah, is that fair to say what it is?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you take that as a threat?
16 A. Yes, he's saying be careful.
17 Q. And I guess did you -- at some point in time did you
18 share that with somebody?
19 A. I gave it to, I think I sent it to Todd. I sent it to
20 the agents in Atlanta.
21 Q. How about Jack Harvey?
22 A. Jack Harvey, excuse me. I'm sorry, it was not the
23 agents, it was Jack Harvey.
24 Q. And that would have been some time later in March; is
25 that correct?
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1 A. Yes, the latter part.
2 Q. Okay. But it's fair to say, is it not, that you were
3 being bombarded?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Okay. And we talked about your retraction about the
6 affidavit, correct?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And you've gone through that affidavit, correct?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right. And we talked about what you think were the
11 discrepancies that were not accurate, okay?
13 Q. All right. And aside from that, whatever documentation
14 the agents put together, okay, as far as you know that's
15 correct, but you're not the one that put it together, fair to
16 say?
18 Q. Okay. All you know is what your role was?
19 MR. HERMAN: Excuse me, Judge, there's been a whole
20 lot of leading here, and I understand that this is -- there's
21 no jury here, but still I think the evidence should come from
22 the mouth of the witness rather than Mr. Hoag.
23 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Hoag, if you would rephrase
24 your question, please.
25 MR. HOAG: I'll rephrase it.

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1 BY MR. HOAG:
2 Q. Did the contacts that you had at some point in time
3 with other individuals include some sort of social media
4 posting?
5 A. Yes, I received several phone calls from different
6 individuals saying, "Are you okay? Is everything all right?"
7 I'm like, "What's going on?" So I don't remember who sent me
8 a screenshot of the posting. I don't do social media other
9 than LinkedIn Business. But I received a posting saying,
10 "Come watch the show."
11 Q. Let me hand you what's been marked 35A, okay. Can you
12 look at that and tell me if that's what you received?
13 A. Yes, this is correct.
14 Q. Okay. And it, does it not, identify you by name?
15 A. Yes, it does.
16 Q. Identify this hearing?
17 A. Yes, it does.
18 Q. And did you then contact me?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Okay. And what did you ultimately ask for?
21 A. A closed hearing.
22 Q. Okay. So it was your feeling that you were in danger?
23 A. 100 percent as well as --
24 Q. No, you tell me what it was that you felt.
25 A. I felt danger. And there's no reason to make a

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1 spectacle out of a courtroom, I'll just come in and tell the
2 truth and leave.
3 Q. And you asked me what? You asked me what?
4 A. I asked you, "Could you ask the Judge to close the
5 courtroom?" And I said, "If you won't ask, then I'll ask for
6 myself or I'll send a letter to Washington, whichever."
7 Q. Exactly right. You actually wrote or sent something
8 that said, "If I have to, I'll call her myself"?
9 A. Right.
10 Q. Talking about the Judge?
11 A. Correct.
12 MR. HOAG: May I have a few minutes, Your Honor?
13 THE COURT: Sure.
14 MR. WELBY: Dean, what exhibit was the letter?
15 MR. HOAG: The posting was 35A.
16 MR. WELBY: The letter she wrote asking for the
17 courtroom.
18 MR. HOAG: I guess. I'm not sure.
19 MR. HERMAN: October 11, 2016.
20 MR. HOAG: That's a different letter.
21 MR. HERMAN: Then we don't have it. He said
22 something about the letter that starts --
23 MR. HOAG: All right. I just have a couple more,
24 Your Honor.
25
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1 BY MR. HOAG:
2 Q. You have subsequently been informed basically about how
3 much money DEA Atlanta has provided you in the, what is the
4 Gatling investigation; is that correct?
5 A. Yes, I was informed of that yesterday.
6 Q. I'm going to hand you --
7 MR. HOAG: What have we got this marked as?
8 MR. REILLY: It's not an exhibit.
9 MR. HOAG: I'm going to call it 38, which is the
10 schedule.
11 THE COURT: Mr. Hoag, is this something that's been
12 shown to defense counsel?
13 MR. HOAG: Yeah, I will do that. I think they have
14 it already. We just got it this weekend, so I'm just turning
15 it over.
16 BY MR. HOAG:
17 Q. Let me hand you what's been marked Government's Exhibit
18 M-38. Do you see that? And in the recent -- well, like just
19 since you got here, that's when you first found out about
20 that, is that fair to say?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Okay. And Mike went over it with you, Mr. Reilly went
23 over it with you?
24 A. He did, yesterday.
25 Q. And he explained to you what other benefits you might

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1 have received aside from, you know, those right there?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. That there were I guess moneys conferred on you when
4 you were --
5 A. Moving.
6 Q. -- moving?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. Since you have been put up for protection purposes?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. You have been offered WITSEC, and at this point you
11 have declined but it is still open?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Okay. And any other benefits that may or may not have
14 been given to you?
15 A. No, other than --
16 Q. Issue of disclosure so that you know, correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 THE COURT: Do you have a copy for me?
19 MR. HOAG: Actually, Judge, you can have this one.
20 I have an extra copy. I'm sorry.
21 I have no other questions at this time, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Cross-examination.
23 MS. TROG: I'll gather my belongings here, Your
24 Honor.
25 THE COURT: For planning purposes, Ms. Trog, it's

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1 11:15, almost 11:20. Are you anticipating that we could go
2 until noon, take a break, and resume?
3 MS. TROG: That's fine, Your Honor. I have no
4 objection.
5 THE COURT: I'm not going to ask you to promise to
6 be done in 45 minutes, but if you are that would be --
7 MS. TROG: Your Honor, I'll look at the clock and
8 I'll keep that in mind.
9 THE COURT: Because I'd like for us to take a break
10 at noon. Proceed, Ms. Trog.
11 CROSS-EXAMINATION
12 BY MS. TROG:
13 Q. Ma'am, when you started working for the DEA in 2009,
14 that was under Agent Harvey; is that correct?
15 A. Jack Harvey, correct.
16 Q. And you stated on direct, ma'am, that during the time
17 that you worked for Mr. Harvey, at least in 2009, that you
18 received no compensation, is that a fair statement?
20 Q. Your first compensation received from DEA would be in
21 2011, would that be a fair statement, ma'am?
22 A. That would be a fair statement, around that time.
23 Q. So when you were working on the Terry White case, if I
24 may, you were working on it because you wanted to do the
25 right thing?
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1 A. Correct. I went to Mr. Harvey to discuss that I
2 thought I may have done something wrong.
3 Q. Were you ever considered a confidential source for an
4 affidavit in Mr. White's case?
5 A. I'm sorry, I don't understand your question.
6 Q. When you were working on Mr. White's case, ma'am, were
7 you working directly with agents with regards to the
8 dissemination of information?
9 A. Okay. I'm sorry, maybe could you reword it or rephrase
10 it if you don't mind?
11 Q. Sure. Sure. When you were working in Mr. White's
12 case, were you asked to make phone calls?
13 A. To Mr. White?
14 Q. Yes. Or anyone.
15 A. Actually I wasn't really told to ask to make the phone
16 calls because I did it anyway.
17 Q. Were you asked to deliver any drugs or any money?
18 A. No.
19 Q. And, again, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.
20 Was it mainly perhaps background information, ma'am?
21 A. Background information for what?
22 Q. For Mr. Harvey.
23 A. Okay. You lost me again. I apologize. Just make it a
24 little more direct so I can understand. I don't understand
25 legal jargon.
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1 Q. Sure. Understood. Understood. We'll get there. You
2 were working on the Terry White case because you thought it
3 was the right thing to do?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. And my question -- and I'll try to get it real concise
6 here. What did you do in the Terry White case?
7 A. Basically I had Terry White to confess that -- that was
8 my motive per se is for him to admit that I didn't know what
9 I was doing in regards to getting money off my credit card,
10 which he did. And I had that on a phone call where I dialed
11 the number and turned the phone over while we were riding out
12 of town, he rode with me to go see Meech a visit one day in
13 the car. And he started talking about all his drug deals, et
14 cetera, et cetera. So that's kind of how it happened.
15 Q. So you were concerned that you were being drawn into
16 perhaps money laundering, ma'am?
17 A. That's what I was told. That's the name of the
18 terminology, yes.
19 Q. See, I knew we would get there.
20 A. Okay.
21 Q. Okay. Now, were you involved with Mr. White, ma'am?
22 A. Yes, for a few years.
23 Q. And when you started assisting the DEA in 2009, had
24 your relationship terminated?
25 A. Sexually it had.
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1 Q. But you were still friends with him?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Now, the agent that you went to in 2009 was Jack
4 Harvey, that's what you stated, right?
5 A. Right. I was given his name and number to call him by
6 a mutual friend in Atlanta.
7 Q. Now, when you went to work for the DEA, did they have
8 you sign any forms, ma'am, do you recall?
9 A. I signed a lot of stuff.
10 Q. You signed a lot of stuff. The government always has a
11 tremendous amount of forms here. But from 2009 until 2011,
12 you were never being paid by the DEA; is that correct?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Did Mr. Harvey mention anything about an award related
15 to the Mr. White case?
16 A. He did right before he retired. He said, "I'll put you
17 in for a little reward."
18 Q. And did he give you any amount, ma'am?
19 A. No, he did not.
20 Q. Okay. And when you hadn't heard anything for a couple
21 months, did you think it had just gone by the wayside?
22 A. Well, I was in conversation with Atlanta DEA, and I
23 pretty much did. I thought it was basically just, you know,
24 honestly a lie. Not on Mr. Harvey's part, but I figured they
25 just -- not even really didn't worry about it at that point.

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1 Q. Because you were working; is that correct, ma'am?
2 A. I've been working for 24, 27 years, yes, ma'am.
3 Q. Now, I don't want you to particularly say where you
4 were working at, but can you just describe the general nature
5 of your employment?
6 A. Well, manage all the new hires. I was managing all the
7 new hires and quality assurance of the company for Goldman
8 Sachs at the time.
9 Q. So if I would describe it perhaps as in human
10 resources, ma'am?
11 A. No, it's more of account management type. Training
12 quality assurance. At that time, training quality assurance
13 at that time. Training quality assurance more so.
14 Q. And you were receiving a salary every week, would that
15 be a fair statement, ma'am?
16 A. Twice monthly.
17 Q. Twice a month. Were you in any financial difficulty in
18 the year 2012?
19 A. Yes, after my husband passed away. We were always
20 financially very well off, but when my husband passed away
21 catastrophically in an automobile accident, it left me with a
22 lot of houses and debt, motorcycles and trucks and cars and
23 things. And I had just recently bought him a boat for his
24 birthday. I received $200,000 off of his benefit for
25 uninsured motorist and $100,000 on a life policy that I

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1 carried on him. And then I think 20 or 25,000 from my
2 company that I paid for his burial. And I took the money and
3 put down on a townhouse.
4 Q. But despite all that infusion of income, you were still
5 having some financial difficulties?
6 A. I was about a $100,000 in credit card debt, yes.
7 MS. TROG: If I may, Your Honor, and we've provided
8 the government a copy of this. If I may approach the
9 witness --
11 MS. TROG: -- with regard to Government's Exhibit 8.
12 Your Honor, I don't know if you have it.
13 BY MS. TROG:
14 Q. Ma'am, I've handed to you a petition in bankruptcy that
15 was filed in the Northern District of Georgia. Have you ever
16 seen that document before?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And do you believe -- do you want to take a couple
19 minutes to look through that that, in fact, reflects the
20 voluntary petition that was filed in the Northern District of
21 Georgia?
22 A. No, I'm sure it's accurate.
23 Q. Okay. In it it lists your income up until the filing
24 of it in August of 2012. In it, ma'am, did you ever report
25 any of your DEA income?

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1 A. Absolutely not.
2 Q. And did anyone ever tell you, ma'am, that you should
3 not report that income?
4 A. Yes, Keith Cromer said you don't report that because,
5 number one, you don't pay taxes on it. And number two, you
6 don't report it because if you report it then they'll have
7 access to my information and know I was a confidential
8 informant.
9 Q. So it was your understanding, ma'am, that all the
10 income you received from the government, from the DEA that
11 you did not have to report that on your tax return?
12 A. Absolutely -- up until I talked to Mr. Harvey.
13 Q. Okay. Now, when you were talking with your attorney in
14 bankruptcy, did he ever ask you, "Ma'am, did you have any
15 other income other than what you've given me copies of?"
16 A. No. Because the only thing he asked is what is your
17 monthly guaranteed -- you know, what do I get monthly from my
18 salary from my company.
19 Q. And no doubt he probably asked for copies of your
20 1099s, your W-2 forms?
21 A. Yes, ma'am.
22 Q. Okay. And to your knowledge, ma'am, this Chapter 7 was
23 granted, is that correct, ma'am?
25 Q. And all the debts that you had listed perhaps in excess
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1 of close to $150,000 in total were wiped away?
2 A. Credit cards, yes.
3 Q. Credit cards. And that was the main thrust of the debt
4 was your credit cards?
5 A. For the most part.
6 Q. Now, you stated, ma'am, that your relationship with
7 Mr. Cromer was essentially in three phases; one a friend, and
8 then a good friend, and then a romantic liaison?
10 Q. Would you give me a time sequence, ma'am, of when we
11 went from the friend stage to the special friend to a
12 romantic liaison?
13 A. I really couldn't give you a specific time, but I can
14 tell you it was within months. Meaning we started off as
15 friends, a few months later, a few months later. I know
16 sexually we didn't become interacting with each other
17 sexually for several months because he was married and we
18 both decided we wanted to wait.
19 Q. Okay. I'm trying to tie this down a little bit more,
20 ma'am. You met him in the fall of 2011, and I'm not trying
21 to put words in your mouth, but in the fall of 2011 when
22 Mr. Harvey retired --
23 A. If that's the time, you are correct.
24 Q. Okay. And --
25 MR. HERMAN: I'm sorry, I didn't hear the answer,

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1 but I'm still having trouble hearing.
2 THE COURT: Well, if you would keep your voice up.
3 MR. HERMAN: Can I hear that answer again, please?
4 MS. TROG: I think she said fall of 2011 was the
5 answer.
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Now, when Mr. Harvey retired, you didn't automatically
8 start working like the next day with Mr. Cromer, did you,
9 ma'am?
10 A. Mr. Cromer reached out to me as a matter of fact the
11 same day or the next day. I think there's an email to
12 confirm that.
13 Q. Okay. And then you talked about some of the kinds of
14 work that you would be doing for him; is that correct?
15 A. For -- when you say "him," who are you referring to?
16 Q. I'm sorry, Mr. Cromer.
18 Q. And a lot of it had to do with Hispanics?
19 A. That was supposed to be for Hispanics, that is correct.
20 Q. And he asked you to, that some of your duties would be
21 to deliver money to them?
22 A. Money and/or drugs.
23 Q. And/or drugs. And did you ever perform those tasks?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you know why you didn't perform those tasks?

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1 A. Well, I would always ask, and they said the person
2 didn't show up or they got stopped and that they were doing
3 state patrols are going down the road. I guess state patrol
4 is always involved in the DEA, and I didn't know that at the
5 time. But it never manifested. It never came --
6 Q. Thank you. So just to clarify, despite the fact that
7 Mr. Cromer said this is what I want you to do, to work with
8 Hispanics, the fact is he never or you never performed any of
9 those tasks?
10 A. They never got carried out.
11 Q. Okay. Now, if we start, and I'm not trying to confuse
12 you, and stop me if I am because --
13 A. I will.
14 Q. We're going to start with the end of 2011 that
15 Mr. Harvey retires and Mr. Cromer then becomes your
16 controlling agent. Would that be a fair statement as the
17 starting point?
18 A. That would be a fair statement.
19 Q. Okay. Now, in 2011 were you -- you had already met and
20 knew Demetrius Flenory. Is that a true statement, ma'am?
21 A. Yes. Yes.
22 Q. In 2011 you still held Mr. Flenory's power of attorney?
24 Q. And you also said that you held his lifeline?
25 A. Creative control life rights.

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1 Q. And could you tell me what that means, ma'am?
2 A. So basically it means that because of the Son of Sam
3 law he doesn't fall under that, meaning that there was no
4 heinous crimes of Demetrius Flenory, because there was no
5 murder, it was just corporate criminal enterprise. So,
6 therefore, he or whoever that he assigned his rights to could
7 benefit from a film being made. As opposed to example Frank
8 Lucas, he couldn't benefit because there was heinous
9 involved, there was murders involved.
10 Q. So if this life story was told on Mr. Flenory, that he
11 could have received benefit from it?
12 A. No, he couldn't receive any. I would because I would
13 be the one with the creative control, correct.
14 Q. Exactly. Okay. So in 2011 you were not only dealing
15 with the DEA, but you were also working with regards to this
16 if I characterize it as a movie deal?
18 Q. Okay. And by that time of 2011 you had already made
19 Mr. Gatling's acquaintance, right?
20 A. That is correct. So let me back up a little bit. You
21 said I've already made a movie deal. That's incorrect.
22 Q. Well, then you were working on one?
23 A. Negotiations with different powerhouses to try to make
24 that come to -- you know, come to realization. But we didn't
25 have anything in place at that time. But you are correct in

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1 regards to the first conversations with Mr. Gatling.
2 Q. Now, Mr. Gatling really wanted to become involved in
3 making the movie, is that a fair statement, ma'am?
4 A. That is a fair statement in the beginning, correct.
5 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Gatling have any money?
6 A. None to my knowledge. I mean, I don't know if he had
7 money or not.
8 Q. Okay. But if you're going to help make a movie, it
9 would have been in the role of a producer --
10 A. Well --
11 Q. -- or seed money?
12 A. No, not so much of that at all. I've been a producer
13 on a few things and I didn't put any money up. It just
14 depends on what you're trying to come about. If you bring a
15 meeting of the minds, if you are bringing a deal to the table
16 you can ask for coproducer or you can ask for executive
17 producer title as well as what they call like a finder's fee
18 for bringing that together, okay.
19 Q. Okay. But it never rose to that level with
20 Mr. Gatling, did it?
21 A. That is correct, because the gentleman he was working
22 with, Louis Burrell, began making threats to me in regards to
23 taking over the life rights and me giving it to him and
24 calling me making threats in regards to Demetrius Flenory
25 that I need to give him -- basically trying to extort me for

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1 his rights.
2 Q. Understood.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. So that was Mr. Burrell who was making those threats?
5 A. Yes, not Dionne.
6 Q. Not Mr. Gatling, okay. So this was a pretty
7 substantial project that you were working on, ma'am, with
8 regards to Mr. Flenory's story?
9 A. Trying to put it together.
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. It's long.
12 Q. So you had a lot of things going on with that. You had
13 a lot of pressure, I would assume, since you were holding his
14 power of attorney and trying to ferret out the best deal you
15 could?
16 A. No, I wouldn't say pressure.
17 Q. No pressure, okay. Did it take a lot of your time?
18 A. At times.
19 Q. At times. So it might be one week it was really busy
20 and the next week you might not have had a whole lot to do?
22 Q. Now, in that same time frame what were you working on
23 in the DEA --
24 A. In 2011?
25 Q. -- with Mr. Cromer?

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1 A. With Mr. Cromer?
2 Q. Yes, ma'am.
3 A. In 2011?
4 Q. Uh-huh, at the tail end of 2011 when he succeeded
5 Mr. Harvey.
6 A. As far as this particular case, is that what you're
7 asking?
8 Q. Yes, ma'am. Or just generalize it, if you were making
9 phone calls?
10 A. Yes. So I was making phone calls in regards to -- and
11 I met with a few people, other informants to put deals
12 together that -- one black guy, I don't recall the guy's
13 name, and I met with another informant, and we were to -- he
14 basically thought I was a drug lady. And she -- the other
15 informant introduced me to him. And we were supposed to put
16 some stuff together then. As well as the --
17 Q. If I could interrupt you for just a moment. But
18 those -- but that individual wasn't CS2?
19 A. No. I don't know who she is with all this stuff. She
20 probably doesn't have anything to do with this; it's another
21 informant.
22 Q. Okay. So we're going to fast forward, ma'am, into the
23 early spring of 2012.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Okay. And if we use the date of March, ma'am.

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1 A. Okay.
2 Q. For a line to begin with.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Were you and Mr. Cromer still in a friend stage or did
5 it revert or had it went on to a special friend stage?
6 A. I can't really say based on that date, but I know
7 during the time with Dionne Gatling it was a special friend
8 stage, romantic stage.
9 Q. Okay. Are you a sports fan, ma'am?
10 A. No, I'm not.
11 Q. Well, I was going to use the Final Four to see if we
12 could figure it out, okay.
13 A. I don't like sports unfortunately.
14 Q. Okay. I would say Easter of 2012, do you recall
15 whether you were still in a special friend stage with
16 Mr. Cromer?
17 A. I can't say.
18 Q. Okay. What time frame do you recollect, ma'am, that it
19 went from a special friend to a romantic friendship?
20 A. Well, when I say "special friend," I mean as far as
21 touching and kissing and cuddling, so that's what I mean by
22 the terminology "special friend" just so you understand that.
23 In regards to romantic, I mean sexual.
24 Q. Yes, ma'am.
25 A. I just want to clarify that for the record. Again, we

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1 waited for maybe three, four, five months before we had
2 sexual intercourse, to lead up to a flown blown, quote,
3 unquote, romantic relationship.
4 Q. Okay. So when you were his special friend, he would
5 come over to your house?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were there times, ma'am, that he would bring his DEA
8 materials over to your house?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Because you know what I'm going to ask you.
11 A. Yes. It's okay.
12 Q. And there were times when he would leave his DEA
13 equipment over at your house, is that a fair statement?
14 A. Yes, ma'am.
15 Q. And it would also be a fair statement, ma'am, that he
16 would talk to you about other agents?
17 A. Yes, ma'am.
18 Q. Whether good or bad?
19 A. Yes, ma'am.
20 Q. Okay. And in this special status, special friend
21 frame, did you travel out of town with him, ma'am?
22 A. Yes, ma'am.
23 Q. And would he ever introduce you as his girlfriend?
24 A. I think he introduced me -- yes, he did to several
25 people, yes.
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1 Q. And if anyone would have seen you, do you think that
2 they would have assumed, ma'am, that you were an item?
3 A. Yes, ma'am. Yes.
4 Q. Okay. Now, at some point in time, though, the
5 relationship, it hit the rocks, didn't it?
6 A. Yes, ma'am.
7 Q. And it hit the rocks because Mr. Cromer became a little
8 bit controlling?
9 A. Yes, ma'am.
10 Q. And so we're sweetness and light to a point?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. Okay. And then we hit a point where he's telling you
13 what to do, where to live?
14 A. How to dress.
15 Q. How to dress. Now, it seems to me, ma'am, you are a
16 very professional person. You have accomplished a lot here.
17 Notwithstanding this case, but you've accomplished a lot.
18 And I would take it it didn't feel so good to have someone
19 make you a second-class person?
20 A. I don't think anyone could make me feel second class, I
21 think that's in self esteem, and I don't have that self
22 esteem fortunately.
23 Q. Did you ever become physically afraid of Mr. Cromer?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And did you ever talk to anyone in DEA about being

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1 afraid of Mr. Cromer?
2 A. I think I mentioned it to Jack Harvey.
3 Q. Okay. So when you were talking to Jack Harvey, Jack
4 Harvey was the person who you thought you could talk to, who
5 you felt confident in talking to?
6 A. I trust Mr. Harvey, yes.
7 Q. Did Mr. Harvey suggest that you move?
8 A. Did Mr. -- no.
9 Q. No. But you felt that at some point in time that you
10 maybe wanted to change your residence?
11 A. Which residence are you speaking about? Just FYI, I've
12 moved quite a bit since I've been involved in this case, so
13 you have to be a bit more specific.
14 Q. I'll try to be a bit more specific.
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. When your relationship started to hit the rocks with
17 Mr. Cromer --
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. -- and if we have a time line that we're kind of
20 talking about, we're probably talking about the late spring
21 or early summer of 2012?
22 A. I don't recall the date, but our issues started when I
23 was already in an apartment after I moved out of the house.
24 Q. Okay.
25 A. I do know that much.

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1 Q. Okay. So was it at that point in time, ma'am, when
2 Mr. Cromer became very controlling that perhaps you thought
3 you might want to move --
4 A. No.
5 Q. -- to get away from him?
6 A. No, I moved because I told on Keith, and they paid for
7 me to move. That's the third time.
8 Q. Okay. Well, let's talk about that for just a moment.
9 You went to Jack Harvey and you said you were having problems
10 with Mr. Cromer?
11 A. No, I went to Jack Harry and I told him that I thought
12 that there was something going on that wasn't right.
13 Q. I'm sorry, I didn't quite hear.
14 A. When I originally talked to Jack Harvey and opened up
15 everything to him I said that I felt that there was something
16 that wasn't going on right within the government, but not
17 just a fear of Keith Cromer. I just want to make sure we're
18 on the same page.
19 Q. I'm glad you did. And after that you moved, ma'am?
20 A. After that I moved because Jack had to contact I guess
21 Keith's boss or whoever, and then they told me to move from
22 the apartment that I was in, but not because of Keith Cromer.
23 Q. Okay. Do you recall when you filed the formal
24 complaint against Mr. Cromer, ma'am?
25 A. What do you mean file a formal complaint? I'm sorry.

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1 Q. Well, at any point in time did you file a complaint
2 against Mr. Cromer personally?
3 A. To who?
4 Q. To the DEA.
5 A. In regards to what he was doing wrong?
6 Q. Yes, ma'am.
7 A. Oh, okay. That would have been when I guess I talked
8 to Jack's -- I mean, Keith Cromer's boss.
9 Q. Right. That would have been like the first time you
10 talked to Mr. Harvey, around that time frame that --
11 A. It wasn't the first time I talked to Mr. Harvey, no.
12 Q. Well, no, no, I realize it wasn't the first time that
13 you talked to him, but in regards to what you felt that the
14 government was doing wrong.
15 A. Yes. And then shortly thereafter is when I met with
16 Keith Cromer's bosses.
17 Q. And was that Todd and Cindy who you referred to?
18 A. No, I don't remember their names, but I know it was
19 Keith's boss and then his boss's boss. It was a tall, skinny
20 Caucasian guy, and it was a fat Caucasian guy. One was nice
21 and one was mean, but I don't know their names.
22 Q. Okay. After you had broke up with Mr. Cromer, have you
23 had any other contact with him to the present time, ma'am?
24 A. Well, when you said that "I broke up with him," I kind
25 of broke off with him while we were still -- while I was

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1 still in the apartment, so I'm confused.
2 Q. Okay. Well, after you broke off with him when you were
3 in the apartment, did he continue to try and call you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Did he stalk you?
6 A. No. All this was prior to me going to Mr. Harvey.
7 Because after Mr. Harvey, we had no more communication and I
8 haven't had since. I just want to make sure we're on the
9 same page.
10 Q. Right. That's good. I'm glad we're on the same wave
11 length here. Now, you knew an agent by the name of Anthony
12 Smith; is that correct?
13 A. An agent --
14 Q. Tony?
15 A. Oh, Tony, yes.
16 Q. Okay. There were probably three agents that you
17 perhaps dealt with more than anyone else. One was David,
18 with the last name Aguilar?
19 A. No, no, you're right. I was listening.
20 Q. There was Fred?
21 A. Uh-huh.
22 Q. And there was Tony?
24 Q. Okay. When you were sexually involved with Mr. Cromer,
25 do you think that any of those agents knew what was going on?
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1 A. Well, I mean, I can assume, but it's not fact.
2 Q. No, no, that's fine.
3 A. I think Tony would know it, and Frank probably maybe
4 assumed it, just because of the way Keith acted around me.
5 Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge that Mr. Cromer had
6 any other sexual relationships with any of the other
7 informants?
8 A. I assumed. No knowledge, no facts, I assumed he did.
9 Q. And I understand.
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. I'm going to ask some questions about a dinner that was
12 had, and I'm not exactly sure the time frame, so I apologize,
13 ma'am.
14 A. That's okay.
15 Q. Mr. Cromer was there?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Mr. Smith was there, and CS2 was there?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. And I think you might have came later on or maybe you
20 were there with Mr. Cromer?
21 A. No, they wanted to meet toward my house because I had
22 just got off work and I didn't want to drive to anybody
23 else's location so we met at Longhorn Steakhouse.
24 Q. Now, at that time did you notice any heightened sense
25 of familiarity between Tony and CS2?

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1 A. Yes, Tony said on the end -- CS2 said -- excuse me, I'm
2 sorry, CS2 and Keith -- no, I'm sorry, I think it was myself
3 and Keith, I think Keith said on the end, I'm not really sure
4 how he said it, but I noticed that Tony and CS2 were like
5 making leg gestures that I thought were kind of
6 inappropriate.
7 Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge, ma'am, that they were
8 having a relationship?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Now, was there anything that CS2 said that might have
11 led you to believe that she knew Mr. Cromer pretty well?
12 A. Yes, she -- we were getting ready to order, and she
13 mentioned something about the drink that he drank. She knew
14 what kind of alcoholic beverage that he likes. And --
15 Q. And were there also some comments about Keith calling
16 her or she calling him in the morning?
17 A. Not on that occasion, no, ma'am. That happened, but
18 not on that occasion.
19 Q. Okay. Do you recall who paid for that dinner, ma'am?
20 A. She did, credit card.
21 Q. Okay. Did she say -- was she celebrating something,
22 ma'am?
23 A. No.
24 Q. Okay. Was that about -- well, let me strike that. Was
25 that the only dinner that the four of you had?

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1 A. The four of us, yes.
2 Q. Okay. And I believe that you testified that CS2 came
3 into play in November --
4 A. I don't remember the date.
5 Q. -- of 2012 with regards to Mr. Gatling?
6 A. That could be right, but I don't recall the date of
7 when this took place.
8 Q. No, no, that's okay. We have a lot of dates. I just
9 want to make sure that -- we believe, okay, and I'm not going
10 to hold you to it exactly, ma'am, but that it would be
11 November of 2012 when Mr. Cromer asked you to introduce CS2
12 to Mr. Gatling.
13 A. That could be about right with the date.
14 Q. Okay. At any time did Mr. Flenory ask you to set up
15 any drug transactions between Mr. Gatling and anyone?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Was there any time, ma'am, during this period of time
18 that Mr. Flenory asked you to negotiate something
19 specifically between Fidel Suarez and Mr. Gatling?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Now, during this time -- we've now for our little time
22 line, ma'am, have gotten to we'll say the summer of 2012.
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. And you were still working with Mr. Cromer -- no, you
25 had stopped working with Mr. Cromer by that time?

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1 A. I don't know the dates, but -- exact dates on when I
2 stopped.
3 Q. Okay.
4 MR. HOAG: Did you say a date?
5 MS. TROG: Some time during the summer of 2012.
6 Q. We don't have an exact date?
7 A. No.
8 Q. And I don't want to put words in your mouth.
9 A. No.
10 Q. Right. So we think we're some time in the summer of
11 2012?
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. Okay. But we're not holding you to a date?
14 A. Correct, because I don't know the date.
15 Q. Okay. Now, you had came into contact with Fidel
16 Suarez?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And do you remember when that happened, ma'am?
19 A. I don't recall when unfortunately.
20 Q. Okay. Do you remember how you were directed to talk to
21 Mr. Suarez?
22 A. In the beginning?
23 Q. Yes, ma'am.
24 A. I wasn't directed at all in the beginning. He just
25 called to ask about Demetrius Flenory.

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1 Q. Okay. So I just want to make sure because I didn't
2 take this down correctly. So you did not initiate any phone
3 calls to Fidel Suarez in the beginning, at the very
4 beginning?
5 A. When he first called to say how is Demetrius doing?
6 Q. Yes, ma'am.
7 A. No, not in the very beginning.
8 Q. Right. And so that first point of contact was
9 Mr. Suarez reaching out to you --
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. -- about Mr. Flenory?
12 A. Correct, his well-being, that is correct.
13 Q. His well-being, not about drugs?
14 A. The first phone call was about how -- and I get that
15 all the time from people, "How is Demetrius doing?"
16 Q. Okay. Because you had access to Mr. Flenory, right?
17 Well, not access, but you were still holding his power of
18 attorney?
19 A. Well, that has nothing to do with -- he would -- he's
20 been in a lot of prisons, okay. And he would give friends or
21 whoever, like celebrities my phone number, to call her if you
22 need to contact me or send me an email, something of that
23 nature, which is common practice for him.
24 Q. Okay. And in the summer of 2012 there was still
25 negotiations working, was going on with regards to this film

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1 on Mr. Flenory's life; is that correct?
2 A. I can't say that about 2012. I don't know what was
3 going on at that time with the film because it would come up,
4 die down, and come up.
5 Q. At some point in time was the entity BMF, LLC
6 registered with the State of Georgia?
7 A. I registered that probably eight years ago, seven,
8 eight years ago.
9 Q. Is it still current, ma'am?
10 A. Yes, it is. And taxes are paid on it every year.
11 Q. So you -- who -- what comprises BMF, LLC, the people?
12 A. Well, not necessarily. You have to have a name for an
13 entitlement.
14 Q. Right.
15 A. And I wanted to trademark the name for an entitlement.
16 Because those are characters of the alphabet, so it doesn't
17 represent anything. There is no representation for it.
18 Q. But would you consider to be the person who formed the
19 LLC?
20 A. CEO --
21 Q. CEO?
22 A. -- is the correct title.
23 Q. Are there any employees of that, ma'am?
24 A. No, just myself.
25 Q. And I believe that you said to this day it's still

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1 going on?
3 Q. Now, I'm going to fast forward. And I'm not trying to
4 trick you here, ma'am.
5 A. No.
6 Q. But I'm just trying to get this to the spring of 2015.
7 A. Okay.
8 Q. In answer to Mr. Hoag's question, you had gotten on
9 Pacer or online and you had gotten into Mr. Gatling's case?
10 MR. HOAG: I object to the form of the question. I
11 believe the date I stated was 2015.
12 MS. TROG: Oh, that's what I thought you said.
13 MR. HOAG: You said '13.
14 THE COURT: She said '15.
15 MS. TROG: I said '15.
16 MR. HOAG: I misheard. I withdraw it.
17 BY MS. TROG:
18 Q. So in the spring of 2015 you researched a case that had
19 to do with Mr. Gatling. Did anyone help you access Pacer,
20 ma'am?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You know how to do it?
23 A. No, I do it all the time. I try to stay abreast to
24 everything.
25 Q. And you accessed the motion and the memorandum that

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1 Mr. Gatling's attorney filed?
3 Q. Now, for the record, he's no longer Mr. Gatling's
4 attorney.
5 A. I know.
6 Q. I'm not working for him, I just want to make sure that
7 you and I are on the same wave length on that.
8 A. I understand. Thank you.
9 Q. Okay. And you were distressed because you saw your
10 name?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And you detailed very carefully on the phone calls you
13 made first to the Court, you talked to Mr. Drake, the
14 Assistant U.S. Attorney, and about on April the 11th you
15 contacted Mr. Watkins' office. I might have the date wrong
16 here, ma'am.
17 A. Who is Mr. Watkins?
18 MR. HOAG: I think that's March the 9th, 2015.
19 Q. Does that --
20 A. Mr. Watkins, again, that's --
21 Q. That you contacted his office on March the 9th of 2015?
22 A. Mr. Watkins is? I'm getting my names confused.
23 Q. Was Mr. Gatling's attorney.
24 A. Okay. Mr. Watkins, the attorney's office, yes, ma'am.
25 Q. Right. And Mr. Watkins wasn't available?

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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And you spoke to a young man by the name of Sam
3 Wallach?
4 A. I spoke to a gentleman, I don't know the name.
5 Q. Okay. And in that conversation you indicated that you
6 had seen the affidavit, and there were a lot of things that
7 was not right in that affidavit, is that a statement that you
8 made?
9 A. That is true.
10 Q. Okay. And Mr. Wallach, he didn't have any answers for
11 you, did he, rather he was a listener as opposed to a
12 participant?
13 A. I didn't stay on the phone with him probably more than
14 two minutes. He was kind of arrogant and nasty, and I didn't
15 like his tone. There was no -- my concern was you got my
16 name in something and no one disclosed that it was coming
17 out, and that's major when you're dealing with, you know --
18 when you're dealing with it. I mean, that's not good.
19 Q. That's totally understandable. Then if I recollect the
20 conversation, ma'am, that -- excuse me, your testimony, that
21 you were not totally satisfied with Mr. Drake's responses to
22 your inquiries when he talked to you?
23 A. That is correct. And I think I had reached out or had
24 talked to Mr. Drake at that time.
25 Q. At some point in time did Mr. Drake and another

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1 Assistant United States Attorney come down to Atlanta to talk
2 to you?
3 A. Yes, I think they came once or twice.
4 Q. Once or twice. And you were certainly adamant with
5 regards to certain things that you believe were not correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. Okay. And if I told you, ma'am, and I'm reading from a
8 disclosure that Mr. Drake and Ms. Graviss came down to you on
9 August the 14th of 2015, and, again, I'm not trying to -- I'm
10 just saying that's when the government said they were down.
11 MR. REILLY: August or April?
12 Q. I'm sorry, April 14th. I apologize. April 14th of
13 2014.
14 A. If that's what they have, I'm sure that's correct.
15 Q. In preparation for that meeting or did you know they
16 were going to come, ma'am?
17 A. Yes, they did give me a heads up, if I'm not mistaken.
18 I've had a lot of meetings, but I think they did call and let
19 me know they were coming down, yes, ma'am.
20 Q. In preparation for that meeting did you ever prepare an
21 affidavit?
22 A. I prepared an affidavit right after I -- I think it
23 was -- I don't know the time frame, but a couple years ago I
24 think I prepared it -- when all this stuff was going on, I
25 wrote an affidavit, I was going to send it to the judge and

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1 copy all parties.
2 MS. TROG: Your Honor, may I approach the witness,
3 please?
4 Q. Does that --
5 A. That's it, yes. You can have it back.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. Thank you.
8 Q. Now, you signed -- excuse me. Now, that was an
9 affidavit that you drew up in your own hand; is that correct?
11 Q. And you were very concerned about your well-being and
12 your safety?
14 Q. Did the government accept that affidavit, ma'am?
15 A. No, I never sent it until Dean and myself and I think
16 Mike were having a conversation, and I said, "I never sent
17 the affidavit." He said, "Well, I have to disclose
18 everything, so you need to send it." And I said, "If I can
19 still find it." And it was in all my paperwork, so I sent it
20 over.
21 Q. So just so I make sure, you never gave that to
22 Mr. Drake or Ms. Graviss?
23 A. No.
24 Q. You just kept it in your file?
25 A. We were going through papers together and I told him I

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1 had an affidavit and I wanted to submit it. Actually I wrote
2 one and then I wrote another one after that because I was
3 nervous with typos and everything.
4 THE COURT: Can you call this something for
5 identification purposes, it's not marked.
6 MS. TROG: It was part of the disclosure we
7 received.
8 MR. HOAG: This is my copy.
9 THE COURT: Has it been marked as anything?
10 MR. HOAG: I haven't shown it to her, but you can.
11 I don't care.
12 MS. TROG: It's marked --
13 MR. REILLY: I'll get a redacted copy.
14 MS. TROG: I take it back. I've been told, Your
15 Honor, that it was recent discovery and it's marked
16 Defendants' Exhibit F.
17 THE COURT: Okay. So this affidavit has been marked
18 for identification purposes as Defendants' Exhibit F, as in
19 Frank?
20 MS. TROG: Yes, ma'am.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 BY MS. TROG:
23 Q. And as you stated, ma'am, that was simply done because
24 you were asked if there were any documents that you had --
25 A. Right.
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1 Q. -- in your file?
2 A. Correct. They said everything, turn it over to them
3 because they have to disclose everything.
4 Q. Right. We're almost there.
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. You talked a bit about these threats, understandable
7 threats that you were concerned about your daughter --
8 A. Let me just say --
9 Q. -- and your future?
10 A. Right. Let me just say this for the record. I have
11 threats that I have not disclosed because of fear of my
12 daughter. So we're going to leave it at that, and I will not
13 disclose them for fear of my daughter.
14 Q. Trust me, ma'am, nobody wants to imperil anybody's
15 safety.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. I will assure you, everybody in this room. How old is
18 your daughter?
19 A. She's 16.
20 Q. Nobody would ever want to do that.
21 A. Okay.
22 Q. There was somebody who was making phone calls to your
23 employer?
25 Q. Okay. And they were using a pretext as being perhaps a

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1 customer?
2 A. Originally, yes, ma'am.
3 Q. Okay. And then there were a series of emails or text
4 messages?
5 A. I've had text messages, emails. But as far as
6 correspondence, it was calls, phone calls --
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. -- from that (773) number that I screenshotted.
9 Q. Okay. Are you still receiving -- other than the last
10 Instagram matter that you -- the Instagram, it shows you how
11 tech I am, I'm not. But you received -- there was Instagram
12 that was sent that you perceived was a threat that mentioned
13 your daughter.
14 A. I don't remember it mentioning, quote, unquote, my
15 daughter. You mean the Instagram that just came?
16 Q. Yes. It was Mr. Jefferson's note that referenced your
17 daughter?
18 A. Several of his emails would mention my daughter and the
19 severity of Dionne Gatling. And I'm a civilian and so on and
20 so forth. That was just the one that I sent, but I have
21 several from Samuel Jefferson.
22 Q. Simply for purposes of identification, ma'am, I'm going
23 to hand with the Court's permission CS1 a compilation of the
24 amounts of moneys that you received through June 4th of 2014.
25 A. Yes, ma'am.
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1 Q. Okay. In them we do not have copies of all the
2 vouchers. But if I could hand this to you, ma'am -- or could
3 I use the ELMO?
4 MR. HOAG: Without objection.
5 MS. TROG: We'll just use the ELMO.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 BY MS. TROG:
8 Q. Your first recorded payment, ma'am, was -- get this for
9 you, hopefully you can see it. Can you see this okay on the
10 monitor?
11 A. Yes, I can.
12 Q. Okay. And this was dated on October the 18th of 2011.
13 And it's a DEA Form 103. Does that type form look familiar
14 to you, ma'am?
15 A. Yes, it does.
16 Q. And was that the standard form that you would sign when
17 you were paid?
18 A. A green form.
19 Q. A green form. I mean, this isn't green but --
20 A. Right, that's the form, it was a green form.
21 Q. But it was a standard form. When it talks in No. 17 --
22 well, in remarks, this is really light. But if I say right
23 there, it says reference this payment to DEA-6 written by TFO
24 Aguilar, references payment to CS1. You were never privy to
25 that DEA-6, were you?

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1 A. I have never seen anything but 18, beside it initialed
2 by the amount, if I'm not mistaken, and that's it.
3 Q. Okay. So -- and I just want to make sure I got this is
4 right, ma'am. So when you got this form it was essentially a
5 blank form?
6 A. No, it wasn't blank, but it just had stuff that I
7 didn't know what it meant.
8 Q. Got you. Okay.
9 A. They said all you do is sign and initial and the two
10 agents will count the money.
11 Q. Okay. And if I would go through, but for the sake I'm
12 not, but you would admit for every payment you received that
13 you signed off on a form like this?
14 A. Well, let me say this just for the record, --
15 Q. Sure.
16 A. -- I received for the first time yesterday or I think
17 it was yesterday a breakdown itemization of all the fees that
18 I supposedly received. A year and a half after talking --
19 when I first talked to Jack Harvey, he told me that you
20 should be filing taxes. I contacted my CPA and an attorney
21 for IRS in regards to the 80,000 and the 50,000 odd dollar
22 payment. I have been asking the government for over a year
23 and a half to provide me with what I just got yesterday so
24 that I can pay the taxes, because they are saying it's a
25 reward for the 80 and 50, but there was work involved with
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1 that so the IRS is stating or the attorney, my CPA's attorney
2 said that it's not just a reward because you're going to have
3 tax writeoffs. So we've been going back and forth with that.
4 And I made several requests to have an itemization and copies
5 of those green copies so I can see. Because there's some on
6 there I have a discrepancy with.
7 Q. Okay.
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Now, when you say you have a discrepancy with, is it
10 because you thought you were getting paid or you didn't know
11 why you were getting paid?
12 A. No, it's because it's moneys on there that doesn't
13 sound right. It's moneys that I may not agree with, so I
14 want to be able to see -- number one, like they say, you
15 can't tell us you owe taxes if we don't know what you owe and
16 can verify that. You can't just walk to IRS and say I made
17 $212,000 and not be able to show for it, because I could be
18 trying to do something illegal from a tax perspective.
19 Q. Sure. Were you -- well, would it be a fair statement
20 to say, ma'am, that for the times that you were paid, you
21 really had no idea why you were getting paid?
22 A. They would just say this is for whatever for the month,
23 and then the 12 months for my apartment stay.
24 Q. Okay. So they would say for your apartment. And when
25 you received this amount of money, ma'am, when you received a

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1 payment for 2,000 or $2,500, was that payment in cash?
2 A. It was always in cash except the two checks.
3 Q. Right. So the two awards, the one for 55,000 on
4 February 27th of 2013, and the $80,750 on April the 9th of
5 2013, that was actually in a check, right?
6 A. Those were checks.
7 Q. Right. And so would somebody call you and set up a
8 time when they were going to pay you or was it every Friday
9 they were going to pay you or once a month?
10 A. No, they -- now, let me say this, there was never an
11 expected payment each month except the 12 months -- no one
12 ever told me every month we're going to give you X amount of
13 dollars. The only time that I was told I would get X amount
14 of dollars was for the apartment. Like the 12 months, once I
15 moved that they would take care of the rent for the
16 apartment. And my rent was I think like with the water bill
17 included maybe two grand or something like that.
18 Q. And that time frame would have been, ma'am, in 2011 and
19 2012?
20 A. I do not remember the dates exact.
21 Q. That's okay. Was there any time that you thought you
22 were getting paid for -- strike that. Was there any time
23 that you believe that you were being paid for work that you
24 did not perform?
25 A. I would say yes.

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1 Q. Do you know under your best knowledge whose work you
2 were being paid for?
3 A. I was never told.
4 Q. Do you have any thought processes that you'd like to
5 share with us on who you thought --
6 A. I can't -- I can't assume because I was never told. It
7 was never a fact, you got paid for this, you got paid for
8 this. I did ask when I got the check, I said, "What is this
9 for?" "It's for everything." I don't know what "everything"
10 is.
11 Q. Right. And it would have been the agent who told you,
12 "It's for everything"?
13 A. Right, it was Keith Cromer.
14 Q. Keith Cromer said it was for everything?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. Was there any time, ma'am, that you had a discussion
17 with CS2 about your payments?
18 A. And I think David was at that meeting. All the agents
19 were there when they presented me with that check, but I
20 think David was sitting on the sofa. Because David was the
21 one who -- and maybe Fred, I'm not really sure, handed me the
22 check. I never received moneys or anything directly from
23 Keith Cromer.
24 Q. Okay. So the cash payments always came from Tony, from
25 David, or from Fred, would that be a fair statement?

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1 A. No, it was more than them. Or Mara.
2 Q. Oh, that's right.
3 A. It was all his team. They would always be in two and
4 they would come to my job, and they would say, "We got
5 something for you, come downstairs, just sign the green paper
6 and here's the money." And there were two agents, and they
7 would tell me to count it in front of them.
8 MS. TROG: Your Honor, if I could have a moment, I'm
9 cognizant of the time.
10 THE COURT: Are you about done?
12 BY MS. TROG:
13 Q. We're down to the very bottom, ma'am.
14 A. That's okay.
15 Q. When your phone call to Mr. Wallach came in -- excuse
16 me, strike that. When you made the phone call to
17 Mr. Wallach, did you express concern that Mr. Flenory set it
18 up?
19 A. My phone call to who? I'm sorry.
20 Q. To Mr. Wallach.
21 A. No, I was saying that the affidavit was saying that
22 based on my recollection, the affidavit said that Demetrius
23 not only set it up but it was something else in the top
24 paragraph that Demetrius -- I don't really recall verbatim,
25 but that was not accurate.

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1 Q. Right. Mr. Flenory didn't set up anything, is that a
2 fair statement, ma'am?
4 MS. TROG: I thank you for your time.
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Is there going to be any
6 further cross-examination of this witness?
8 THE COURT: Okay. We're going to recess until 1:15.
9 CS1, you are excused for now, but we'll see you back here at
10 1:15.
12 MR. HOAG: Can you admonish that we cannot contact
13 you?
14 THE COURT: CS1, you are not to talk to any of the
15 attorneys during the recess, during any of the breaks that we
16 take during the course of this hearing.
17 THE WITNESS: And mine either?
18 THE COURT: You can talk to Talmage Newton, your
19 appointed counsel, and ask him any questions, but other than
20 Mr. Newton, no one else.
22 (Court in recess from 12:10 p.m. until 1:21 p.m.)
23 THE COURT: Counsel, was there something you wanted
24 to take up?
25 MR. REILLY: Judge, there was something I wanted to

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1 take up to make a record, Your Honor. One of the CSOs
2 approached us after the break as soon as the Court declared a
3 recess and indicated that Mr. Gibbs had approached two people
4 who were outside the court who were in here earlier before
5 the Court cleared the courtroom. And Mr. Gibbs walked up and
6 indicated the name CS1, and indicated the name CS2 to
7 people who were previously in the courtroom, which I assume
8 are associates of one or more of the defendants. I can bring
9 the CSO to make a record if need be, but my position is
10 Mr. Gibbs' bond should be revoked.
11 And it's also my position that on August 29th Dionne
12 Gatling went back and dictated a post on social media, and
13 it's our position all this is a violation of the protective
14 order. None of the defendants take it seriously, at least
15 these two don't. And in case they can't help themselves,
16 Judge, which it appears that they can't, I'd ask that all
17 their phone privileges be revoked other than attorney calls
18 for the indefinite future.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Welby?
20 MR. WELBY: And I spoke with Mr. Gibbs about this
21 after he got back, and he tells me that someone asked him in
22 the hall who was testifying, and his response was "the main
23 gal," which would not be a violation of the protective order.
24 I would also ask the Court to consider the fact that
25 the government's position was the direct examination of this

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1 court did not even need to be sealed and it could have taken
2 place in open court and in a public record. So the dramatic
3 remedy that the government seeks seem to be inappropriate in
4 this case.
5 THE COURT: I don't know that was the government's
6 position. But there's no question that the names of the
7 confidential informants is and always has been protected. I
8 don't think there's any question about that. And it does
9 sound as if there's been a violation. Now you're saying that
10 Mr. Gibbs did not --
11 MR. WELBY: Absolutely not.
12 THE COURT: -- say the name of the source?
13 MR. WELBY: He did not. He said "the main gal."
14 MR. REILLY: Well, Judge, the CSO, and I'll call him
15 as a witness if I have to, he said he said both of their
16 names, referring to CS1 and CS2.
17 THE COURT: I'm going to think about the motion to
18 revoke Mr. Gibbs' bond. I don't know if I can stress how
19 important it is that all of the defendants comply with the
20 protective order. I know that you've been admonished by your
21 lawyers.
22 I am going to give Ms. Trog an opportunity to
23 respond to the question to revoke Mr. Gatling's phone
24 privileges. I've been trying to think about what an
25 appropriate remedy would be in light of that posting. And it

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1 sounds like there is evidence to suggest that Mr. Gatling
2 dictated the post, right? Wasn't that what the government
3 suggested?
4 MR. REILLY: Yes, Judge.
5 THE COURT: You have a recording.
6 MR. REILLY: And at some point in this hearing we'll
7 offer the transcript and the tape of the recording that was
8 on August 29th, sometime around 8:30 in the evening after the
9 deposition of CS2. I think it's marked as Government's
10 Exhibit 36, 36A. There's redacted and unredacted copies of
11 the material. The posting of the exhibit itself is
12 Exhibit 35, which Mr. Hoag directed CS1 to that as one of the
13 exhibits she examined.
14 But I anticipate when Agent Budds testifies he's
15 going to testify that he requested -- after the posting, he
16 requested the records from the county jail, and they provided
17 him phone calls from Dionne Gatling's jail telephone account.
18 And there was a recording in which he explicitly dictated
19 that threat. That's Government's Exhibit 35. And he
20 explicitly dictated the posting. And it's verbatim
21 essentially, Your Honor.
22 That's going to be the evidence as we proceed
23 through this hearing, and it's what we represented in the
24 pleadings in this case.
25 MR. WELBY: And while you're considering what to do

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1 about the situation with Mr. Gibbs, I would ask the Court to
2 take into consideration, Mr. Gibbs has had access to
3 protected material in this case for almost 18 months. I
4 think we received the first batch on May 7th of last year.
5 He has reviewed this material. He is familiar with this
6 material. And there has not been one suggestion that he in
7 any way acted inappropriate during the entire course of these
8 proceedings with any of the information that was provided to
9 him. None of these phone calls, none of these threats, none
10 of the information that CS1 testified about earlier today
11 have any connection whatsoever to Mr. Gibbs.
12 So I don't believe that such a dramatic sanction is
13 appropriate. I think it would be a good reminder for
14 everyone to impress upon them the seriousness of this
15 offense, but if you look at his history over the time while
16 he's been on bond, he's been a model pretrial releasee,
17 whatever the word is. He's been a model person while he's on
18 his bond. He's been allowed to travel. He's always come
19 back. And he's never violated the Court's protective order.
20 And this is the first time that issue has been raised. And I
21 think his explanation that he said "the main gal" is close in
22 sound to CS1 and CS2. It's not so far off that it's two
23 basic words that could have easily been misinterpreted. So
24 that's all I have to say about it.
25 But he's been a very good client. He has not gotten

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1 into trouble and he has not violated the Court's protective
2 order in over 18 months.
3 MR. REILLY: Judge, and this was brought to my
4 attention, and I didn't sense that there was any
5 misinterpretation based on the way it was conveyed to the
6 government. And what I would suggest in the alternative is
7 for some reason if you're not going to revoke his bond, Your
8 Honor, I'd ask that you put him on electronic monitoring and
9 a travel restriction because now he has seen CS1. And our
10 position is he's gone out and violated the protective order.
11 So at the very least I'm going to ask that he be on
12 electronic monitoring so he can't travel anywhere where he
13 may find CS1 or direct somebody else to CS1. I think the
14 situation has changed now with regard to Mr. Gibbs, Your
15 Honor.
16 THE COURT: I don't know how location monitoring
17 addresses the very serious concern that the government has
18 raised in terms of providing information or a description to
19 someone else.
20 MR. REILLY: Well, it doesn't, Judge, but I'm just
21 saying if for some reason the Court is reluctant to revoke
22 his bond, which we think is appropriate in this case at the
23 very least. I was inclined to ask the Court to place him on
24 electronic monitoring in any event once he had seen CS1 just
25 because of the situation here. Now that he knows what she

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1 looks like, for him to be able to travel unfettered without
2 monitoring, that would not be -- for all the reasons we filed
3 our motion, that raises concerns to start with. And now the
4 indication is that he walked straight out of here and the
5 first thing he did was tell people who testified in the case
6 or who the CSs are.
7 THE COURT: I'm going to take the government's
8 motion that Mr. Gibbs' bond be revoked or in the alternative
9 that he be placed on location monitoring under submission
10 only until the close of this hearing today. If I decide that
11 I think Mr. Gibbs needs to be on location monitoring I'll
12 make that decision so that he is on location monitoring
13 before he leaves the courthouse today.
14 MR. WELBY: I understand, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Ms. Trog.
16 MS. TROG: Your Honor, Mr. Gatling when he did the
17 Instagram, he did not believe that it was in the form of a
18 threat. We certainly talked about this issue before about
19 protected information, et cetera. I certainly realize that
20 he is confined. And we've worked really, really hard since
21 we've been in this case and reviewed a lot of protected
22 information with Mr. Gatling, and this is the first instance,
23 and the government can correct me if I'm wrong since I've
24 been involved in it, that there has been a difficulty with
25 it. We would ask that if the Court believes that this was a
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1 threat, which Mr. Gatling did not intend it, that he be
2 admonished. And further that if the Court would believe it's
3 a threat that it would admonish him today, not restrict any
4 phone privileges. But that if it ever happens again, that we
5 know what the recourse by this Court would be. But we're not
6 conceding there was any threat with regards to it, Your
7 Honor.
8 THE COURT: And even if it's not a threat, Ms. Trog,
9 I guess part of my real concern, Mr. Gatling, is that the
10 name of the informant -- I know the copy that I have is
11 redacted, but that's a direct violation of the protective
12 order. We're disclosing the names of confidential informants
13 now. I just can't have that. I thought that was all very
14 clear.
15 MS. TROG: Well, I would just again ask for the
16 Court's consideration, and if it would admonish him. And
17 then if there was another instance then there wouldn't even
18 be any question, Your Honor.
19 MR. REILLY: And, Judge, the only -- are you
20 finished?
21 MS. TROG: Yeah.
22 MR. REILLY: Count 6, the grand jury has indicted
23 him that he did knowingly kill Theodis Howard with the intent
24 to retaliate against Theodis Howard for giving information to
25 one or more law enforcement officers that related to the

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1 commission of one or more federal offenses.
2 Count 9, he's been indicted acting together that he
3 did knowingly -- him with Andre Rush in both counts did
4 knowingly kill Terrance Morgan with the intent to prevent
5 communication of information by Terrance Morgan to a law
6 enforcement officer of the United States. That information
7 related to the commission of a federal offense and possible
8 commission of a federal offense.
9 When Mr. Gatling talks, at this point people listen,
10 Judge, okay. When he places a post on social media and names
11 the CS, that does get people's attention.
12 MS. TROG: If I may, Your Honor. Those are merely
13 allegations at this point in time, and there's been no proof
14 offered to support those allegations. We would be the first
15 to say they are very serious allegations, but there's been no
16 proof to support to them. Rather, Your Honor, we believe
17 that if the Court would allow one very stern admonishment,
18 that is given, reemphasize it. Obviously if it happens again
19 we would have a clear understanding of what the repercussions
20 would be. This is a gentleman who has been confined for over
21 two years in a case that's very complicated and complex. And
22 what little freedoms he has, and we're certainly we're not
23 condoning the release of the name of the confidential source
24 by any means, Your Honor, but we would just ask for the
25 Court's indulgence.
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1 MR. REILLY: Judge, I ask what's the harm to
2 revoking all the phone privileges for an indefinite -- not a
3 permanent period, but an indefinite period during the course
4 of this hearing, when you know what happened the last time
5 was he couldn't help himself. He heard the evidence and he
6 went back and just started talking about it explicitly. So
7 what's the harm for a temporary block of their communication
8 abilities to -- not to their lawyers, but to other people?
9 THE COURT: Is there any question, Ms. Trog? You
10 had a chance to listen to the recording that the government
11 proffered.
12 MS. TROG: I have listened to it in its entirety,
13 Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: And do you dispute at all that Exhibits
15 35 and 35A reflect, if not verbatim, the substance of what
16 Mr. Gatling said on that recording?
17 MS. TROG: Yes, Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: All right. I am going to grant the
19 government's request as a sanction. I think that it is very
20 important for everyone to understand just how seriously I'm
21 taking it, if you're not. For the duration of this hearing
22 Mr. Gatling is not allowed to make telephone calls to anyone
23 other than his attorney, Ms. Trog, and he's not allowed to
24 receive any calls from anyone other than his attorney during
25 the course of this Franks hearing. And that is a sanction

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1 for violating the Court's protective order.
2 MS. TROG: Understood, Your Honor. But it's only
3 for the duration of this hearing. So if the hearing is
4 finished, Tuesday evening or Tuesday afternoon, Wednesday
5 afternoon, the sanction would be lifted.
6 THE COURT: The sanction will be lifted with the
7 Court's admonishment that should anything even close to this
8 happen in the future that will become a permanent condition
9 for the duration of the case unless ordered otherwise by
10 Judge Sippel.
12 MR. REILLY: Thank you, Judge.
13 THE COURT: Is there anything else before we bring
14 the witness back up?
15 MR. WELBY: Could I have two minutes, Your Honor?
16 I've been waiting in the courtroom for a while.
17 THE COURT: Oh, yes. Anybody else needs two
18 minutes, this would be a good time to use them.
19 (There was a short recess.)
20 THE COURT: Ready for further cross-examination of
21 this witness?
22 MR. HUMPHREY: Yes, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: All right. Let me just remind you, CS1,
24 you're still under oath.
25 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.

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1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. HUMPHREY:
3 Q. Good afternoon, ma'am.
4 A. Good afternoon.
5 Q. Now, it's fair to say that you -- you testified that
6 you met Mr. Flenory in about 2002, correct?
7 A. Maybe 2002, 2003, yes, sir.
8 Q. Okay. And you were actually introduced to Mr. Flenory
9 I believe by his mother?
10 A. No, by Barima McKnight.
11 Q. I'm sorry?
12 A. Barima McKnight.
13 Q. Barima McKnight. And she was a friend of yours?
14 A. He, he is a friend of mine.
15 Q. He was a friend of yours, I'm sorry.
16 A. He's a friend of mine, uh-huh.
17 Q. And now obviously Mr. Flenory over the course of his
18 life has been in some difficulties, been in trouble. He's in
19 prison right now?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. And Mr. Flenory didn't involve you with any of his
22 activities that got him into prison, did he?
23 A. No.
24 Q. And you mentioned that there is a BMF, LLC?
25 A. Yes.
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1 Q. And that's a legitimate company, correct?
2 A. Yes, it is.
3 Q. It has nothing to do with any sort of drug activity or
4 any sort of illegal activity?
5 A. None whatsoever.
6 Q. Okay. Now, when you were first involved with the DEA,
7 you came in because is it fair to say that you were worried
8 about becoming a target of the investigation of Mr. White?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And as a part of that investigation you did some work
11 where you made some phone calls?
12 A. I think I did 90 percent of the work from what I was
13 told, 90 to 95 percent of the work for that case.
14 Q. Okay. 90 to 95 percent of the work on that case. And
15 that consisted of telephone calls, correct?
16 A. Visits, telephone calls, trips, yes, sir, quite a bit.
17 Q. Did you wear wires or anything for --
18 A. I was recording the calls.
19 Q. You were recording the calls with?
20 A. Jack Harvey.
21 Q. Okay. I mean, physically how were you recording the
22 calls? Were you using --
23 A. With my phone.
24 Q. With your phone?
25 A. Uh-huh.
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1 Q. Okay. So you were making those calls and you were
2 turning those over to Jack Harvey?
3 A. Jack Harvey was on the call while I was having
4 conversation with Mr. White. I would dial the number, turn
5 my phone over and Jack would with hear the calls. And
6 sometimes they were conference calls. And there was also
7 meetings.
8 Q. Okay.
9 A. Numerous meetings.
10 Q. So in the course of that investigation you were doing
11 some three-way calls with Mr. Harvey and then Mr. White?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Now, as part of that case you were never
14 required to testify, correct?
15 A. With Mr. White, no.
16 Q. And, in fact, you haven't testified in any cases in
17 which you've been used as a CS, have you?
18 A. I've never testified. This is my first time in court.
19 Q. Okay. And you believe that you were about 90 to
20 95 percent responsible for building the case against
21 Mr. White?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Were you contacted prior to Mr. White being indicted or
24 after Mr. White being indicted?
25 A. Repeat that question.

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1 Q. Okay. You became involved in Mr. White's case?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. Do you know if Mr. White was already indicted at that
4 point?
5 A. No, I don't think so.
6 Q. He was not indicted?
7 A. I don't know.
8 Q. You don't know?
9 A. No. I don't think so though.
10 Q. Now, I'm going to jump around a bit, but you originally
11 met Mr. Suarez when he contacted you about Mr. Flenory?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. And it was just conversation where he wanted to know
14 how he was doing?
16 Q. There was no discussion of any sort of illegal activity
17 with him at that point?
18 A. No, there was not.
19 Q. Okay. And it's fair to say that's the same thing with
20 your relationship with Mr. Gatling, when it first started it
21 was concerning the movie?
23 Q. There was no discussions of any illegal activities?
25 Q. And as far as Mr. Suarez was concerned, when you -- you

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1 first interacted with him on a telephone conversation. And
2 you followed up with Mr. Flenory that Mr. Suarez contacted
3 you about him?
4 A. It may have been a letter. May have just been
5 correspondence. It may have been a phone call. But we did
6 have a conversation about who all had called in regards to --
7 you know, such and such called, they asked how you were
8 doing, about your mom, et cetera.
9 Q. So following that Mr. Flenory explained to you that he
10 met Mr. Suarez when they had previously been incarcerated
11 together?
12 A. In the county jail, uh-huh.
13 Q. And Mr. Flenory didn't suggest to you, hey, you need to
14 make sure that you look up Mr. Suarez with drug connections,
15 did he?
16 A. No.
17 Q. It was just as far as you were concerned at that point,
18 he was contacting as a friend?
19 A. At that point you are correct.
20 Q. And over the course of time you stayed in contact with
21 Mr. Suarez basically as a friend, is that fair?
22 A. Right. He would call my phone, correct.
23 Q. So in addition to being a friend of Mr. Flenory, he
24 became a friend of yours, is that fair?
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1 Q. Okay. And would it -- would you have considered at
2 that point Mr. Gatling over that same time, did he become a
3 friend or were you guys more just discussing business?
4 A. When we're saying "friend," I think we're going a
5 little too far with that. I really wouldn't say friend, I
6 would just say someone that you have communication with.
7 Q. Okay. But you guys were having communications, you
8 were having communications with Mr. Gatling about --
10 Q. -- legitimate business opportunities?
12 Q. Now, you mentioned also that, and obviously we've heard
13 about it an affidavit that you wrote. And you were concerned
14 about there being any sort of reports about Mr. Flenory
15 trying to facilitate any drug deals between Mr. Suarez and
16 Mr. Gatling, is that fair?
17 A. That is absolutely correct.
18 Q. Okay. Now, when you met with Ms. Graviss and Mr. Drake
19 in April of 2015 --
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. -- they actually physically reviewed a copy of the
22 affidavit with you, didn't they?
23 A. They probably did. I had been in two interviews that
24 day for about six hours.
25 Q. Okay. But regardless, at some point you went on Pacer

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1 and you actually pulled up the information for yourself,
2 right?
3 A. What information are you talking about? The affidavit,
4 is that what you're --
5 Q. Well, let's go through. What information did you give
6 in the case?
7 A. I see everything pretty much unless it's sealed.
8 Q. Okay. So do you recall whether or not you saw the
9 affidavit?
10 A. When you're saying "the affidavit," that's why I'm
11 getting a little confused. I have a stack of papers this big
12 so you have to be a little bit more specific for me.
13 Q. Okay. Sure. Sure.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. Now, obviously you're aware of an affidavit because you
16 said if there's any mention of Mr. Flenory, and this is from
17 August, I believe it was filed August 28th of 2012?
18 A. Right. So doesn't the defense have an affidavit and
19 you guys have an affidavit, because you got your story and
20 their story? That's what I'm saying, when you say
21 "affidavit," can you show me which affidavit you're speaking
22 on so I'll know which one you're referring to? Are you
23 saying my affidavit? That's where I'm confused.
24 Q. No, no, no. I'm sorry.
25 A. That's okay.
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1 Q. I'm referring to the Title III affidavit.
2 A. I have no idea what a "Title III" is unfortunately, so
3 can you refer me to what you're talking about, just so we're
4 on the same page, please.
5 Q. Sure.
6 A. Thank you.
7 Q. I'm sorry.
8 A. That's okay.
9 MR. HUMPHREY: May I approach the witness, Your
10 Honor?
12 BY MR. HUMPHREY:
13 Q. I'm going to show you what's marked Government's
14 Exhibit M-1.
15 A. Okay. Thank you.
16 Q. Ma'am, are you familiar with that document?
17 A. Yes, I did see this on the government website.
18 Q. Okay. And you've had an opportunity to review that
19 document?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And it's your understanding that you have been
22 identified in this document?
24 Q. And you are CS1 in this document, correct?
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1 Q. Okay. And as a part of your earlier testimony you
2 clarified that despite what's in this document, Mr. Flenory
3 was never involved in trying to coordinate any drug deals
4 between Mr. Suarez and Mr. Gatling; is that correct?
6 Q. Now, also as a part of this document there's some
7 discussion of you potentially getting a finder's fee or there
8 being a discussion between you and Mr. Suarez about a
9 finder's fee for coordinating deals for cocaine; is that
10 accurate?
11 A. That is correct. I told them that they can give me
12 some money so I can make sure Meech's books, his commissary
13 stays good. You know, finder's fee, yes.
14 Q. Okay. So your intent was for them to conduct drug
15 deals so they could give you money so you could place it on
16 Mr. Flenory's books?
17 A. That's what I was told to say. That is correct.
18 Q. That's what you were told to say, okay.
19 A. By Keith.
20 Q. Okay. So Mr. Cromer told you to say that?
21 A. That is basically correct.
22 Q. Now, also there's some references in here to DEA agents
23 and DEA Atlanta?
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. Is it fair to say the only person you were really

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1 directly talking to about these instances was Keith Cromer?
2 A. Keith Cromer and I spoke to the St. Louis agent that --
3 Q. Right. So you talked to the St. Louis agent as well.
4 And as a part of your discussions with the St. Louis agent,
5 did you discuss any involvement of Mr. Flenory in organizing
6 a transaction between Mr. Suarez and Mr. Gatling?
7 A. No.
8 Q. So if that information is within this affidavit, it
9 didn't come from you?
10 A. No. I think this may have come from -- I don't know,
11 maybe Keith, I don't know where this come from.
12 Q. Did you ever tell Keith that that was what was supposed
13 to occur?
14 A. No.
15 Q. And you didn't tell that to anybody involved with DEA
16 St. Louis either, did you?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Now, I'm going to jump back for a little bit because
19 when Mr. Harvey retired, at that time basically you were
20 really only still a confidential source in order to make sure
21 that you got your payment of the reward from the White case?
22 A. I'm sorry, repeat that again.
23 Q. Sure. Maybe I asked it a little confusing. When
24 Mr. Harvey retired, the White case was completed except for
25 any payment of any rewards, correct?

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1 A. I think the White case was closed.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. I think so. I'm not sure of that, but I'm pretty sure
4 it was.
5 Q. And at that point you had no other information or real
6 involvement with DEA, did you?
7 A. Well, when you say "real involvement," then I was
8 contacted by Keith, shortly within days thereafter, so --
9 Q. So you were contacted by him within days?
10 A. Or a day, I think it was a day.
11 Q. Within a day. But there was nothing else you were
12 working on actively with Mr. Harvey at that point?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And so you were contacted by Mr. Cromer, and Mr. Cromer
15 wanted you to do some additional things?
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. And I believe you testified that some of those
18 additional things that you were supposed to do were make
19 phone calls and collect money and drugs dealing with I
20 guess --
21 A. Hispanics.
22 Q. -- he said Hispanics?
23 A. That's what he said.
24 Q. And the purpose of that was so they would be, they
25 would be deported and you would never have to testify?

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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Okay. But then you've also testified that a number of
3 these details and things they wanted you to do would be set
4 up and you didn't actually do them?
5 A. They didn't actually work out or pan out. You know,
6 they didn't manifest.
7 Q. You were ready to work --
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. -- but the work wasn't there?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. But during this time you were still getting paid,
12 correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Now, you also going back to that time, and you said
15 that you believe that they did, that in April of 2015 that
16 Mr. Graviss -- I'm sorry, Ms. Graviss and Mr. Drake, they
17 came to Atlanta and they met with you?
19 Q. And you said you didn't have a lot of memory of things
20 because you were in six hours of meetings that day?
21 A. Yeah, it was -- if I'm not mistaken that was a day that
22 I met with them, and I met with maybe AIG or OIG, I'm not
23 really sure because I met with a lot of abbreviation people,
24 so one or the other.
25 Q. Sure. So during the course of their interviews with

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1 you, did you report to them everything that you're telling us
2 here today that was incorrect information involved in the
3 affidavit? And I'm referring to M-1 that you have in front
4 of you here.
5 A. I'm sure I did. I can't guarantee it, but I'm sure the
6 conversation was there. If they presented this, I would have
7 told them my issues and concerns, yes, sir.
8 Q. Okay. So if they reported that you only discussed the
9 portion of the affidavit being incorrect about DEA agents and
10 DEA Atlanta really only referring to Keith Cromer, that's
11 incorrect?
12 A. Repeat that again. I'm sorry.
13 Q. Sure. If they after speaking to you prepared a report
14 that says that your discussion of the affidavit with them,
15 that you only reported that the -- everything was correct
16 except for references to DEA agents and DEA Atlanta, there
17 weren't really multiple individuals, that was just Keith
18 Cromer?
19 A. I'm not quite sure I understand your question, but the
20 relationship between Demetrius Gatling was with Keith Cromer
21 and the St. Louis agent if that answers your question.
22 Q. No. I'm going back. Not a trick question. I'm just
23 asking if their report is that you didn't mention any of that
24 stuff, are they incorrect?
25 A. Well, I haven't seen their report lately. Again, we've

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1 got a lot of reports. Is this their report?
2 Q. Sure.
3 A. Can you show me their report?
4 MR. REILLY: Can you direct me to whatever page it
5 is?
6 MR. HUMPHREY: Sure. It's page 3.
7 A. Do we know if this report was sealed on the Pacer
8 website?
9 Q. It would not have been on the Pacer website.
10 A. So maybe I haven't seen it.
11 Q. I will bring it to you. This was Defendants' B.
12 MR. HUMPHREY: May I approach the witness, Your
13 Honor?
15 Q. Ma'am, I'm referring you specifically to page 3, bottom
16 paragraph.
17 A. Okay. I haven't seen this.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. Just read the impeachment of potential -- potential
20 impeachment?
21 Q. Yes. If you would like to take a moment to read that
22 paragraph before answering my question.
23 A. Please. Okay. So to answer your question --
24 Q. Sure.
25 A. -- basically what I told them was the conversations I

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1 had with Dionne Gatling and Suarez in regards to August 5th
2 and the drug transaction is 100 percent accurate. That is
3 100 percent the truth. In regards to the full affidavit
4 being correct, it depends on -- I don't understand you guys'
5 language, but the fact about Demetrius Flenory as well as
6 another statement in there that BMF members, that was
7 inaccurate. So that part I recollect. I know that for sure.
8 All this I can't -- I mean, because some of this language I
9 don't understand.
10 Q. Okay. But it's fair to say in your opinion that any
11 references to you knowing information about the multitude of
12 felonious behavior of the BMF, that's not accurate, is it?
13 A. Right, because BMF members, and everybody knows that
14 that didn't -- I don't know how that came about.
15 Q. And that's nothing you ever told Keith Cromer, Tony
16 Smith, David Aguilar, or Fred Swoope?
17 A. No.
18 Q. And is that anything that you ever discussed with DEA
19 St. Louis?
20 A. Not about BMF members, no.
21 Q. So if that's in the affidavit, you're not sure how it
22 got there, is that fair to say?
23 A. In regards to BMF members, no. I know what I know in
24 regard to the conversation on the drugs, but as far as the
25 BMF members, I don't know if Dionne was supposedly part of

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1 BMF, I can't answer that because that I don't know that.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. And so going back to when -- the only thing when you
5 first met Mr. Suarez, the only thing you know about him was
6 quite frankly what Mr. Flenory told you, that they had been
7 locked up together?
8 A. In a county jail, and he beat his case.
9 Q. And obviously there's some discussion in Government's
10 Exhibit M-1 about three-way calls that were being made on
11 August 5th. And that's incorrect, isn't it?
12 A. It was not a three-way call, it was Keith was there.
13 Q. He was there. The only people who were there, it was
14 you and Mr. Cromer, correct?
15 A. And my mom and my daughter, but they were in the back.
16 Q. They weren't witnesses to any of the phone
17 conversations, were they?
18 A. No, no.
19 Q. Okay. So if it says that there was a three-way call
20 initiated that way that day between you and the agents and
21 Mr. Suarez, that's incorrect, isn't it?
22 A. That's incorrect.
23 Q. And that's not something that you would have told to
24 Keith Cromer obviously as he's one of the people who was
25 there on the phone listening, in the room listening.

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1 A. Right, he was guiding -- right, he was guiding. The
2 phone was on speaker, correct.
3 Q. And that's not something that you reported to DEA St.
4 Louis, did you, that there was a three-way phone
5 conversation?
6 A. Well, Keith Cromer called the agent. Keith Cromer
7 reached out to I guess St. Louis people, and then they called
8 me, and I told them the phone numbers and what had
9 transpired.
10 Q. No, I'm going back to the actual phone calls that you
11 received this day. Because I believe it's your testimony
12 that on August the 5th you were first contacted by Mr. Suarez
13 and he was upset?
14 A. Yes, Mr. Suarez called and he was upset because the
15 truck was there. He had the guys up there with this F'n
16 truck.
17 Q. Okay. And that was the conversation that was overheard
18 by Mr. Cromer because he was with you?
20 Q. And there were no other agents present, correct?
22 Q. And at no point did you call another agent on the phone
23 and make a three-way call like you previously described that
24 you did with Jack Harvey; is that right?
25 A. Right. I think Keith called him, and then he called me

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1 and I talked to the St. Louis agent.
2 Q. Okay. So is it fair to say that you never reported to
3 anyone involved with DEA St. Louis that on August 5th of 2012
4 you made a three-way call involving yourself, any other
5 agents from DEA St. Louis, and Mr. Suarez?
6 A. That is correct from that date. I have -- we have done
7 a three-way call. No one has asked me that yet. I think
8 they have. But there's been a three-way call with Keith
9 Cromer and Fidel Suarez before, but not on that particular
10 day that you're speaking about, okay.
11 Q. And that's the date that's discussed in the affidavit
12 in one that you reviewed, correct?
13 A. Okay. Correct.
14 Q. Okay. And very briefly, you mentioned that your first
15 contact about any drug activity was in midyear of 2012, and
16 Suarez called you and asked for customers needing pills,
17 correct?
19 Q. And you didn't at that time provide him with any
20 customers, did you?
21 A. No.
22 Q. And that was your first and basically only conversation
23 to that point about any sort of drug activity?
24 A. Up to that point.
25 MR. HUMPHREY: I have nothing further.

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1 THE COURT: Further cross-examination, Mr. Welby?
2 MR. WELBY: Thank you, Your Honor.
3 CROSS-EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. WELBY:
7 Q. I'd like to start just clearing up a few points that
8 were raised by other people. First, you mentioned that you
9 have the creative rights to the life of Demetrius Flenory; is
10 that correct?
12 Q. How did you acquire those?
13 A. He gave them to me through an attorney. We went
14 through an attorney.
15 Q. Did you pay for them?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you consider them to be a valuable asset?
18 A. I mean, it depends. I guess it would be if we make
19 something out of it, absolutely.
20 Q. And is that why you created the BMF, LLC?
21 A. No. I mean, to make a film, to have further -- because
22 it's a story to be told.
23 Q. So in order to make the film, you have to protect the
24 letters "B-M-F" in order to secure your rights?
25 A. Repeat your question.

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1 Q. In order to secure the protection of the letters
2 "B-M-F" as either a copyright or a trademark, you have to
3 protect those through some legal entity?
4 A. Not necessarily, because again that goes back to what I
5 said earlier. BMF is characters of the alphabet so more than
6 one person can actually trademark -- as a matter of fact, I
7 think it's five people have those characters trademarked. I
8 let my trademark go on the characters several years back. I
9 just have the creative control rights at this point in time.
10 Q. Do you know why Demetrius Flenory gave those rights to
11 you?
12 A. Because I would assume he trusted me to know I would do
13 what's right if a movie did come to par.
14 Q. What does that mean, to "do what's right"?
15 A. I mean, if something -- if the movie made and money is
16 to be made, if he says, hey, my kid needs this or my mom
17 needs this, he know I would do what's right. I'm not going
18 to take the money and run off, you know, if the film is made.
19 Q. Because he can't get the money, only you can get the
20 money?
21 A. Well, I can only get the money now because I have his
22 rights.
23 Q. Correct.
24 A. Right, but with the Son of Sam laws, technically he
25 could have got the money.

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1 Q. But right now you have --
2 A. The government would have probably held it, but he
3 could have received it, absolutely.
4 Q. But right now you have those rights?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. You described some activities you did on a case
7 involving Terry White with Special Agent Harvey; is that
8 right?
10 Q. And that's some type of money laundering case?
11 A. That's the correct title, I think that is the title,
12 money laundering.
13 Q. And that case was over and done before you had any
14 dealings with Keith Cromer?
16 Q. With the exception that you were entitled to an award
17 out of some of the proceeds that were forfeited in that case?
18 A. That is -- well, I wasn't necessarily entitled. Jack
19 told me at the end I would get a reward. But I'm not going
20 to say I was entitled to one. I didn't ask for an award.
21 Q. You were hoping to receive an award --
22 A. No. No, I was never hoping. I never knew about a
23 reward until the very end when Mr. Harvey said that he put me
24 in for an award. I never went to him -- I never knew about
25 rewards until the last two or three weeks before Jack Harvey
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1 retired.
2 Q. So before Jack Harvey retired in 2011, you had a
3 conversation with him about the possibility of you receiving
4 some monetary compensation for your work on that case?
5 A. I didn't have a conversation with him, he had one with
6 me to let me know that I would be -- he put me in for a small
7 reward that I could help pay my credit cards. I just want to
8 make sure we got it right. I didn't contact him about it, he
9 contacted me about it, okay.
10 Q. And this happened before he retired?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And then you did later on receive some type of award
13 relating to that case?
15 Q. You were asked questions about your personal
16 relationship with Special Agent Cromer. Is it correct that
17 you were in a personal relationship with Agent Cromer in the
18 fall of 2011?
19 A. I was in a personal relationship with him, but I can't
20 tell you the exact dates.
21 Q. Would fall of '11 be a close guess as to when this
22 happened?
23 A. '11 or '12, you are correct, between '11 and '12.
24 Q. Late '11, early '12?
25 A. Between '11 and '12.

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1 Q. In 2012 did that relationship progress from a personal
2 relationship to what you described as a romantic, sexual
3 relationship?
4 A. It did progress, the relationship did progress.
5 Q. Was that the status of the relationship on or before
6 August 5th of 2012?
7 A. I can't say. I don't remember that as far as the
8 dates.
9 Q. He was at your house on Sunday morning --
10 A. On August --
11 Q. -- on a personal date on August the 5th of 2011 (sic)?
12 A. Correct, so we were in a relationship during that time
13 during that phone call if that's what you're asking.
14 Q. Not just a personal relationship, but a romantic,
15 sexual relationship?
16 A. I don't have the dates of when we were actually
17 sexually active, but I'm more than likely we were at that
18 time.
19 Q. Would there be any other reason he would be at your
20 house on a Sunday morning?
21 A. I think it was not Sunday morning, if I'm not mistaken,
22 wasn't it Sunday evening or afternoon, evening more so? I'm
23 just curious. I didn't think it was morning. Was it
24 morning?
25 Q. It was morning, yes.

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1 A. Was it morning? Okay.
2 Q. When the phone calls start it's morning. It goes into
3 the afternoon.
4 A. Into the afternoon, because I remember cooking, and I
5 wouldn't cook spaghetti early in the morning, okay.
6 Q. So your relationship was personal and romantic at the
7 time this phone call comes in on August the 5th?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. Am I correct that you had received a number of $2,500
10 cash payments on a number of months prior to August the 5th
11 of 2012?
13 Q. And is it my understanding that those payments were
14 made to you because you were under the understanding you were
15 on payroll?
16 A. No, never thought I was on a payroll. I was never
17 guaranteed month to month. They would just call me up and
18 say, hey, we've got something for you. But it was never --
19 only to the apartment that I knew it would be month to month.
20 Q. When did you move into the apartment?
21 A. Maybe four to six months after the bankruptcy.
22 Q. So some time after the bankruptcy?
23 A. Yes, it was after the bankruptcy, because I stayed in
24 the house for several months thereafter.
25 Q. Okay. So you were receiving periodic cash payments of

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1 $2,500 prior to August 5th of 2012?
2 A. Well, 2,500 and it altered. I think some were 1,500,
3 2,500, et cetera.
4 Q. Let's just take a look. I'm going to show you what
5 I've marked as Defendants' Exhibit M.
6 MR. WELBY: Is it okay if I just show it to her?
7 THE COURT: Sure.
8 Q. I'm going to show you what has been marked as
9 Defendants' Exhibit M. This lists a series of payments that
10 are reportedly made to you starting in the fall of 2011 going
11 through -- well, continues on for several months even beyond
12 this. But the times I'm interested in are the times prior to
13 August the 5th of 2012.
14 A. Okay, that seems to be about accurate. There is a few
15 $500, I don't know what that's about. But that does seem to
16 be somewhat accurate.
17 Q. If we're just looking at the period of time --
18 A. That appears to be accurate.
19 Q. That's accurate? $2,500 not every month, but most
20 months you received $2,500?
21 A. Yes, that appears to be accurate.
22 Q. And the description on these are for information,
23 slash, services?
24 A. I have no idea who wrote that or what that represents
25 unfortunately.
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1 Q. Is it true?
2 A. Well, at times, but it was just --
3 Q. Did you provide information to the DEA about drug
4 activities in October of 2011?
5 A. I can't say specific for that date, but, again, I
6 really don't feel that I provided a lot other than showing up
7 when I was called to. So when you're saying the word
8 "information," I'm getting confused. Are you meaning
9 information or do you mean me showing up to make a
10 transaction?
11 Q. I'm asking just about information, that you provided
12 them with information about drug-related activities that were
13 taking place in the United States.
14 A. None to my knowledge.
15 Q. You didn't provide any information about drug-related
16 activities in the United States prior to --
17 A. Well, no, let me take that back, I'm sorry, because
18 there was a guy named Victor. There was a guy named Victor
19 that I did provide quite a bit of information to. I don't
20 know his last name. But he was -- but I don't know when that
21 was. I don't know like my dates.
22 Q. No idea when that was?
23 A. I apologize?
24 Q. You don't know when that was?
25 A. No, I don't know when that was.

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1 Q. So your basic understanding is that other than Victor
2 that happened at some unknown point in time, you were aware
3 that you had not provided information about drug activities
4 between October 11th -- I'm sorry, October of 2011 and let's
5 say the end of July 2012?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. That you can recall?
8 A. That I'm just calling and giving them information, no.
9 Q. So you didn't provide information?
10 A. Unless it was Victor, because we did have the guy
11 Victor, and I don't know when that took place.
12 Q. If you don't know, that's fine.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. Let's just skim down real quick on this same exhibit
15 while we have it up here. There are two places indicated
16 where you received awards. Am I correct?
18 Q. One of $55,000 on March the 5th of 2013. One about a
19 month later on April 16th of 2013 for $80,750?
21 Q. Other than that, all of this money is for information
22 and services?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And these payments --
25 A. That's what it says.

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1 Q. And these payments then continued, showing you page 2,
2 up until -- well, April of 2014, and then there's some
3 relocation and security fees that were paid after that in
4 2014?
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. Okay. And you said that they would ask you to do
7 things or show up, pick up money, pick up drugs, deliver
8 things?
10 Q. And it never actually happened?
11 A. It never would happen.
12 Q. So you never did any of those things?
13 A. Never did any of those things. We had a few occasions
14 where I said I met with the informant, I don't know her name,
15 but I met with her to meet with a black guy to set up some
16 stuff, and they said they ended up busting somewhere down the
17 road, but I don't know if that transpired. I can't answer
18 that.
19 Q. Did Mr. Cromer promise to give you enough money to pay
20 for your rent after you moved?
21 A. He said they would take care of my rent for one year.
22 Q. Did they pay your rent separately or did you pay it out
23 of these cash payments?
24 A. No, I paid it out of the cash payments.
25 Q. You described a situation with a man named Bootsie

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1 where you just read some information off a card to a
2 different agent?
3 A. No, it wasn't a card, it was a piece of paper.
4 Q. A piece of paper?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. I stand corrected. And you didn't know anything about
7 Bootsie?
8 A. No.
9 Q. So Cromer gave you this card, and you just read it off
10 the card to some other agent who wrote the information down?
11 A. That's correct. That's what he asked me to do.
12 Q. Which made it look like it seemed like it came from
13 you?
14 A. Well, I don't know why he told me to do it. I don't
15 know if it looked like it came from me. He told me to call
16 him and give him that information. That was pretty common,
17 so --
18 Q. Did that happen a lot?
19 A. Not as far as giving information, but as far as me and
20 CS2 would go back and forth with information.
21 Q. So she would tell you some information?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. And then you would call and tell it to the agents?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. Speaking of CS2, did you say that you believe she was
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1 having an intimate relationship with a special agent?
2 A. I believe she was.
3 Q. And who was that?
4 A. Keith Cromer.
5 Q. You thought she was having a relationship with Cromer?
6 A. Just assuming, but I believe that.
7 Q. Do you think she was having a personal relationship
8 with anyone else?
9 A. I didn't like the way -- I mean, when I saw her and
10 Tony at the restaurant that night I thought that was a little
11 questionable. I mean, I don't know because she's very -- I
12 don't know, I can't speak for what she's doing and who she
13 was with, but I believe her and Keith Cromer may have had a
14 relationship.
15 Q. And that's based your personal observations of the two
16 of them?
17 A. No, I wouldn't say personal observations. I would say
18 based on a phone call that we had.
19 Q. With whom?
20 A. With CS2 and Keith Cromer.
21 Q. You had a three-way call --
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. -- with the three of you? And did they admit to being
24 involved in a --
25 A. No, they did not.

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1 Q. -- personal relationship? But something about the call
2 made you think that they were in a personal relationship?
4 Q. And what was that?
5 A. Where she asked me if he -- does he wake me up every
6 morning. He wakes me up every morning, does he wake you up
7 every morning, or something to that effect. Basically he
8 calls to wake her up every morning. And I know that to be so
9 because he would wake me up every morning, so --
10 Q. Were you involved in a personal relationship with any
11 of the other agents?
12 A. No. Oh, no.
13 Q. Now, did I hear you correctly that with respect to the
14 events that were described on August 5th of 2012, the only
15 agent in Atlanta or task force officer or anybody else
16 working with the DEA in Atlanta who knew about that phone
17 call was Keith Cromer?
18 A. Right. And I did mention this, I think David Aguilar
19 knew about -- I mean, I did have conversations with David
20 about, you know, what transpired, but that was thereafter.
21 But at the time of the call it was Keith Cromer.
22 Q. So the only one with firsthand knowledge was Keith
23 Cromer?
25 Q. And you?
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1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And the information you gave to David Aguilar, Cromer
3 told you to call Aguilar and tell him this stuff?
4 A. Yeah, just make sure David -- because he was in the
5 loop, you know, make sure he's in the loop with what's going
6 on.
7 Q. That was your routine?
8 A. Yeah, to make sure all the agents knew what was going
9 on.
10 Q. Am I correct that the initial phone call reporting the
11 event of August the 5th, 2012 was made by Keith Cromer in a
12 phone call that he made to someone in the DEA St. Louis, if
13 you know?
14 A. Repeat that again. I'm sorry.
15 Q. Am I correct that the initial information about the
16 August 5th, 2012 phone calls was provided by a telephone call
17 made by Keith Cromer to the DEA in St. Louis?
18 A. Okay. I hope I understood your question. So basically
19 Keith Cromer reached out to the St. Louis agent -- the DEA
20 St. Louis agent to tell them what happened on the call.
21 Q. Were you present when he made that call?
22 A. No, not when he made that call.
23 Q. So he just told you I called DEA in St. Louis and told
24 them?
25 A. No, I know he made the call because DEA St. Louis

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1 called me. So how else would they know?
2 Q. Is that the first time you heard of it?
3 A. The first time I heard of it?
4 Q. The first time that you heard that St. Louis was
5 involved in this matter.
6 A. No, I think I had a previous call with them. I think I
7 had one previous call with them. I think I did have one
8 previous call with them. I've only had three calls with St.
9 Louis. And one of the calls was, "Have you heard from Cuff?"
10 "No." And then the other two calls.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. But I don't know if it was before or after.
13 Q. So let's take them one at a time. Did you have any
14 calls with DEA in St. Louis prior to this phone call on
15 August the 5th of 2012?
16 A. I can't guarantee that.
17 Q. To your knowledge.
18 A. I'm not sure.
19 Q. The three that you described, those are things that
20 happened after the phone call on August the 5th?
21 A. Again, you're just reverting the question and the same
22 answer is, I can't answer that because I don't remember the
23 exact timeline unfortunately. But I know I have had three
24 calls with St. Louis.
25 Q. So in your entire life you've had three phone calls

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1 with DEA in St. Louis?
2 A. From my knowledge, yes.
3 Q. And one of them was, "Have you heard from Cuff?"
4 A. Correct. One was, "Have you heard from Cuff?" The
5 second one was a five-minute call, and they were just asking
6 me all the questions about the phone -- you know, what
7 happened, the phone calls, the phone numbers. And I told
8 them everything that transpired.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. And then the third one, to be honest with you, I don't
11 even remember word for word on that one. But the one from
12 the August 5th, I do recall that one because I know exactly
13 what happened that day.
14 Q. So at some point in time you speak with an agent from
15 St. Louis on the phone about phone numbers that were involved
16 with the August 5th?
17 A. Phone numbers and what transpired that day.
18 Q. On August 5th?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And prior to that call is it your understanding that
21 Mr. Cromer had called DEA in St. Louis?
22 A. Prior to that -- prior to that call?
23 Q. Yes.
24 A. Or you mean after the call?
25 Q. Before you received the call from DEA in St. Louis, do

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1 you think --
2 A. I can't really speak for Keith Cromer, because I don't
3 know what Keith was doing. He was doing a lot of everything,
4 so I really can't speak for him. I can just tell you that
5 St. Louis was aware that Dionne Gatling and Fidel Suarez was
6 making a drug transaction because we had those conversations
7 and that's what took place. I mean, as far as, you know,
8 getting down to before or after, I don't remember that. I'm
9 sorry.
10 Q. Were you surprised to get a call from DEA in St. Louis?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Because you were aware that things had been reported to
13 DEA in St. Louis?
14 A. Well, I would think it would be reported. They are
15 doing drug deals. I mean, that's part of the DEA agent's job
16 I guess.
17 Q. Was the call in which involved the phone numbers and
18 the discussions that took place on August the 5th the first
19 time you spoke to DEA in St. Louis?
20 A. You just asked me that question. I don't remember if
21 that was the first time I talked to them or the second time I
22 talked to them. I've talked to them a total of three times.
23 I can't tell you what days I talked to them each time. I do
24 recall one time we were at the restaurant, Keith and I were
25 eating when the agent called, and he gave me the phone and he
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1 asked me had I talked to Cuff, and I told him no. One time I
2 talked to them was in regards to Fidel getting mad about the
3 truck and the guys were up there. And I think the third time
4 may have been, and please don't hold me to this, but it could
5 have been when Fidel said he ran off with the stuff. I don't
6 remember the third call quite -- and I don't remember if it
7 would have been before or after at that point because that
8 was after when that happened, but I just don't recall that
9 third conversation.
10 Q. When you spoke with DEA in St. Louis, did you always
11 speak with the same agent?
12 A. No, I think the first time I talked to somebody or he
13 got smart with me or something, and I told Keith that he was
14 kind of nasty or arrogant. And he said, well, he's going
15 to -- somebody else will call if you ever have to talk to
16 them or something to that effect. But I do remember there
17 was an issue where he was real rude and nasty. And he made
18 some comment to me. And I said, "I'm not in trouble, I'm
19 just trying to help you guys out because of everything that's
20 going on. Don't get smart with me." I do remember something
21 to that effect.
22 Q. Do you remember who the agent was?
23 A. No, I don't.
24 Q. Do you ever remember speaking with -- do you remember
25 the names of any of the other agents with whom you spoke in
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1 St. Louis?
2 A. I remember speaking -- well, DEA, I talked to Brett
3 about the case. Brett about the case. About the overall
4 case overall.
5 Q. Is that one of the three calls?
6 A. No, that's separate.
7 Q. Was that -- so you don't remember who you spoke with
8 about --
9 A. No.
10 Q. -- the phone numbers?
11 A. No.
12 Q. But it was not Brett?
13 A. I don't think it was Brett. I don't know if it was
14 Brett or not. I don't think it was Brett. I spoke to Brett
15 after the affidavit stuff and I was upset, okay.
16 Q. So it's your recollection you spoke to at least two DEA
17 officers from St. Louis about the case, Brett and another one
18 who was nasty to you?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And possibly a third one?
21 A. Possibly a third one, because it could have been a
22 separate person, you're correct.
23 Q. Was Keith Cromer with you during any of the other two
24 telephone conversations?
25 A. Just one, that's the one when he passed me the phone

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1 when we were at dinner and I said -- he said, "Have you heard
2 from Cuff?" And I had said, "No." And then the other one,
3 he was -- I don't think he was present.
4 Q. And you don't remember where you were or the dates or
5 anything like that?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. Was anybody except for Keith Cromer with you
8 during that phone call?
9 A. If I don't remember the phone call then obviously I'm
10 not going to remember who was with me, I'm sorry.
11 Q. That's fine. I've got a list of questions I'm going
12 through.
13 A. That's okay. That's okay.
14 Q. Did Brett Johnson ever ask you to provide your
15 telephone records regarding the calls of August the 5th of
16 2012?
17 A. Did he tell me to provide the phone calls? I don't
18 think so. I gave him numbers. The agent I talked to, when
19 he asked me what all happened with the phone call on the 5th,
20 I gave him all that information. I don't think I texted, I
21 think I maybe verbally gave it to him, I don't recall.
22 Q. Did any agents with the DEA in St. Louis ask you for a
23 copy of your phone records regarding the telephone calls that
24 occurred on August the 5th of 2012?
25 A. I don't think so. I don't recall.

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1 Q. Did any of the officers in St. Louis ask you for copies
2 of the text messages that took place or that are reported to
3 have taken place on August the 5th of 2012?
4 A. No, I don't think they did.
5 Q. Did they ask you what your phone number was?
6 A. The phone numbers that were going back and forth?
7 Q. Your phone number.
8 A. Oh, for my phone number? No. They already had my
9 phone number because they called me.
10 Q. They called you on the same phone you were using?
11 A. Yeah, this was my regular line.
12 Q. Did they ask you to provide any screenshots of calls or
13 calls that came in that day to document the phone calls that
14 had been received on August the 5th of 2012?
15 A. No, not that I remember.
16 Q. Do you remember ever speaking with an Agent Patrick
17 Budds?
18 A. I recall that name.
19 Q. But do you know in what context?
20 A. Probably in all this paperwork.
21 Q. In the paperwork. He is in the paperwork.
22 A. I mean, I could have talked to him, I can't say that.
23 But I'm just saying I know that there was a lot of paperwork
24 with that name.
25 Q. Right. But as you sit here today, you don't recall a

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1 conversation with Patrick Budds?
2 A. I can't say that because that could have been one of
3 the people that I talked to on that call.
4 Q. You were asked some questions about the affidavit that
5 was prepared earlier. And you have a copy of it there in
6 front of you; is that right?
7 A. Yes, this was the one from St. Louis.
8 Q. At various times you've been upset about some of the
9 things that are in that affidavit, am I correct about that?
11 Q. You believe some of those are not true, some of the
12 facts in there are not true?
13 A. Is this for -- it says A-1 or R-1, are we on
14 government? Is it this one?
15 Q. It should be M-1.
16 A. Oh, I'm sorry, M-1.
17 Q. Does it have a stamp that says filed August 28th, 2012?
18 A. That's it.
19 Q. So showing you Government's Exhibit M-1. You mentioned
20 that you were concerned about some of the information that
21 was provided regarding this Mr. Flenory; is that right?
23 Q. And having reviewed the affidavit, you're aware that
24 many of the paragraphs refer to Mr. Flenory?
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1 Q. So specifically in paragraph 8 it refers to a statement
2 under Section A that says, "CS#1 told investigators that
3 Demetrius Flenory coordinated drug distribution arrangements
4 between the two." Referring to Suarez and Gatling. And is
5 that statement true?
6 A. No.
7 Q. There's a statement in paragraph B that says --
8 paragraph 8(A) was the last one. Paragraph 8(B) is the next
9 one. It says, "Per CS#1, Demetrius Flenory arranged for
10 Suarez to deliver multiple kilogram quantities of cocaine to
11 Gatling in St. Louis through CS#1."
12 A. That's not true.
13 Q. So the statements in paragraph 8 are false?
14 A. Correct, that is not true.
15 Q. It goes on then to describe activities of the
16 conspiratorial members starting No. 1 with Demetrius Flenory.
17 A. Where are you at? I'm sorry.
18 Q. Under "Investigation Background." It looks like
19 paragraph No. 9.
20 A. What page are you on? On page 5?
21 Q. Page 5.
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. It's on the TV screen there.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. You see at the bottom, paragraph 9, it lists the

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1 description of Demetrius Flenory as being a conspiratorial
2 member; is that correct?
3 A. It lists what now? I'm sorry.
4 Q. It lists Demetrius Flenory as No. A or letter A under
5 "Background Information on Conspiratorial Members."
6 A. Could you -- what's the definition of "conspiratorial"?
7 Can you tell me what that is, please?
8 Q. Was Demetrius Flenory a member of a conspiracy
9 involving Gatling and Suarez?
10 A. No.
11 Q. So if he's listed as a conspiratorial member, that
12 would be false?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Okay. Going to the next page, paragraph 6. I'm sorry,
15 paragraph 10 on page 6.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. Again, here we're talking about the conspiratorial
18 members involving Demetrius Flenory; is that right?
19 A. No. 10?
20 Q. Yeah, maybe just continuing on the top of the page,
21 Flenory was responsible for the acquisition of cocaine. Did
22 you have any information about Demetrius Flenory being
23 involved in a conspiracy with these two individuals?
24 MR. HOAG: That was in reference to the Detroit
25 investigation. That's misleading.

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1 MR. WELBY: All right. I'll withdraw the question.
2 You're right.
3 A. Yeah, I don't know about Detroit.
4 THE COURT: My portion of the document is cut off on
5 the screen so I couldn't follow along with you.
6 MR. WELBY: Sorry.
7 THE COURT: That's okay, I have the paper now.
8 A. I can't answer that because I know what he was charged
9 with, but I've never seen him distribute cocaine or any drugs
10 for that matter, so I don't know about the Detroit other than
11 the sentence and the hearing.
12 Q. You testified earlier that you have no reason to
13 believe Mr. Gatling was a member of the BMF?
14 A. Correct. I've never heard that until recently.
15 Q. At the end of paragraph 10 does it list that Gatling is
16 associated both with Demetrius and Terry Flenory and has
17 substantial ties to multiple BMF members?
18 A. I can't begin to answer that because I've never known
19 him to be considered BMF. And that's me. I've never known
20 Gatling to be a BMF member.
21 Q. As far as you know that's not true?
23 MR. HOAG: She answered she doesn't know.
24 THE COURT: The objection is it calls for
25 speculation?
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1 MR. HOAG: Pardon?
2 THE COURT: Your objection is it calls for
3 speculation?
4 MR. HOAG: Yeah, speculation, sorry.
5 BY MR. WELBY:
6 Q. In paragraph 11 it indicates that you have not met
7 Suarez. Is that right, you've never met Suarez?
8 A. I never met Suarez.
9 Q. He sent you that kind of a weird picture. Is that the
10 only time you've seen his face?
11 A. I don't think it was weird, it was just a picture.
12 But, yes, that's the only time I've seen his face.
13 Q. It's like a picture of like --
14 A. It was him in the car.
15 Q. Him sitting in a car?
16 A. I guess it could be weird.
17 Q. Okay. There's two paragraph 13s, so let's go to the
18 one under Section 2, paragraph A.
19 A. I'm sorry.
20 Q. Page 8, paragraph 13. Paragraph 13 in the middle of
21 the page says, "August 2012, confidential informant,
22 hereinafter described as CS#1, contacted the DEA to provide
23 information on an active drug distribution conspiracy in
24 which Dionne Gatling, Fidel Suarez, and Demetrius Flenory are
25 members."
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1 A. Okay. I'm sorry, where are you at? I think I got
2 lost. On what page?
3 Q. Page 8, paragraph 13.
4 A. Oh, I'm on the wrong one. Sorry. And --
5 Q. Is that true?
6 A. Well, I don't know. This has been a big issue. I
7 don't know if it's true. In regards to Keith was at my
8 house. Keith has heard these conversations. He is an agent.
9 So an agent was contacted.
10 Q. Did you initiate -- did you get on the phone and call
11 the DEA and say, hey, I'd like to provide information on a
12 conspiracy involving Gatling, Suarez, and Flenory?
13 A. No.
14 Q. That did not happen?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Other than the fact that Mr. Cromer happened to be at
17 your house on the day that these phone calls were made?
18 A. Well, not just that day, Mr. Cromer was aware that
19 Fidel and Cuff had conversation because I told him he was
20 also aware of Fidel, because Fidel would call my phone. One
21 night we were at the movies and Fidel called and Keith Cromer
22 overheard that as well. But I never contacted DEA and said
23 Demetrius and Cuff and Fidel, what you just asked me, no, I
24 didn't, okay.
25 Q. So it's not true that you contacted DEA to provide

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1 information on an active drug distribution conspiracy
2 involving Gatling, Suarez, and Flenory?
3 MR. HOAG: That calls for a legal conclusion.
4 MR. WELBY: I'm asking if she contacted them.
5 MR. HOAG: Because she's with him, she's in contact
6 with him.
7 THE COURT: Okay. I'll let her answer for herself.
8 Overruled. Go ahead.
9 A. So it goes back to saying, that's where the conflict
10 has been all along. I'm not an attorney. I don't understand
11 what you guys understand. What I know is that DEA of Atlanta
12 was aware that Dionne Gatling and Suarez were in drug
13 conversations. I did not reach out to -- I reached out to
14 Keith Cromer. He was aware of the situation. But I didn't
15 call DEA Atlanta 404-0000 number and say, hey, I would like
16 to report blah, blah, blah. That did not happen.
17 Q. And the time when you reached out to Keith Cromer, it's
18 because he was there in the room with you?
19 A. Or he was in the car or whatever the situation may be,
20 correct.
21 Q. I'm talking about the events of August 5th.
22 A. He was there with me, that is correct.
23 Q. I want to draw your attention to paragraph 13.
24 A. Okay.
25 Q. I'm sorry, paragraph 13, Footnote 3, way down at the

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1 bottom of the page.
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. It says that you have provided reliable information to
4 the DEA regarding a multitude of felonious activities.
5 A. Now, when you're saying "felonious," can you tell me
6 what that means?
7 Q. It means of a felony nature.
8 A. That I've provided reliable information? I wouldn't
9 agree with that.
10 Q. You do not believe that's true?
11 A. I don't believe I've provided them with a lot of
12 information in regards to -- I mean, I did what they asked me
13 to do.
14 Q. Certainly not a multitude of felonious information?
15 A. Not a multitude of telling them this person, that
16 person, this person, if that's what you're asking.
17 Q. Looking at paragraph 14.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. The last sentence there, "Flenory has arranged for
20 Suarez to provide cocaine in multiple kilogram quantities to
21 Gatling through CS#1."
22 A. That's not true?
23 Q. Paragraph 14 would be false?
25 Q. Okay. With respect to paragraph 15, page 9.

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1 MR. WELBY: Do you have an objection?
2 MR. HOAG: No, go ahead.
3 Q. Before we leave 15, at the very top of the page on
4 paragraph 9, "Demetrius Flenory arranged the introduction of
5 Suarez through CS#1 who is not incarcerated."
6 A. The only contact was I had Demetrius -- or with Fidel
7 Suarez was, "Hey, Buddy told me to get Cuff's number."
8 That's the only interaction from my understanding what I've
9 been involved with that Demetrius Flenory played a role in
10 any of this was to -- and, again, he didn't tell me that
11 directly, that came from Fidel saying, "Buddy said give me
12 Cuff's number."
13 Q. So Demetrius Flenory didn't tell you that?
14 A. No, Fidel told me that.
15 Q. All right. And that's it, that's the full extent of
16 his involvement?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. The information in paragraph 15 about Flenory getting a
19 cut, that was not a true statement, that was something that
20 Cromer told you to say?
21 A. That's something I said, correct, that Cromer advised
22 me to say. That was my conversation.
23 Q. Okay. So that was part of the scam or whatever the
24 ruse that you guys were playing on Suarez?
25 A. I wouldn't say "scam." I don't know how you define

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1 that.
2 Q. Scam is a bad word.
3 A. Yeah, it's just a conversation that took place.
4 Q. "Scam" is not the right word. Part of the play that
5 you would do in order to draw someone in?
6 A. Part of what I was being asked to do.
7 Q. You just did what Cromer told you to do?
8 A. Correct.
9 Q. And he told you to tell Suarez that Flenory was going
10 to get a cut?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. So it's not true in paragraph 15 that you expected
13 Flenory to get a cut?
14 A. Well, yes, because that was the conversation. The
15 conversation is if they meet, give me a cut and I'll look out
16 for Meech, that's the conversation, in other words.
17 Q. Is it true that Flenory arranged for that drug
18 distribution relationship?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So that would be false in the first sentence of
21 paragraph 15?
22 A. Correct, that's false.
23 Q. And the last sentence where it says you're unaware how
24 Flenory was going to obtain his portion of the cut or the
25 second last sentence?

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1 A. I don't know anything about -- that's not true.
2 Q. It wasn't true in the first place, right?
3 A. Right, it was not true.
4 Q. Paragraph 16 says you -- second last line from the
5 bottom, it says you facilitated the introduction of Gatling
6 to Suarez and at least one other BMF drug trafficker in
7 Atlanta. Was that true?
8 A. That's not true. I don't know who a BMF drug
9 trafficker would be in Atlanta.
10 Q. Looking at page 10, same exhibit, bottom of 16. Did
11 you tell them Gatling had been using Target Telephone No. 1
12 to talk to Suarez since February of 2012?
13 A. When you say "them," you're talking DEA Atlanta, Keith,
14 is that what you're asking?
15 Q. Either Keith or St. Louis.
16 A. Yeah. So I did tell them that or Keith or them that --
17 now, when you're saying Target Telephone No. 1, I don't know.
18 They have the numbers and they knew the conversations between
19 Fidel and Dionne Gatling.
20 Q. Target Telephone No. 1 is (314) 598-2330.
21 A. Dionne would call from a (314) number, but I don't know
22 the last digits. But you can refer to my cell phone bill and
23 then maybe that number is on there.
24 Q. I don't think we have your cell phone bill.
25 A. Per the numbers on the cell phone. I just seen the

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1 cell phone number somewhere, the 633-9119 that you showed me
2 earlier, Dean. It's some exhibit that had phone numbers with
3 Dionne's number on it.
4 Q. Okay. Let me ask you this, did you give your phone
5 records to anybody with the DEA in Atlanta, the DEA in St.
6 Louis, or any branch of the United States government?
7 A. I may have given AIG, I gave them, I don't know if it
8 was records or just the phone. I don't think they had
9 records, I think it was just the phone, not the records.
10 Q. And I'm only asking about for the month of August of
11 2012.
12 A. Oh, no.
13 Q. Nobody ever asked you for that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. It talks about Suarez for a little while and
16 jumps down to the events of August the 5th, 2012. The bottom
17 of page 11, paragraph 22, continuing on to page 12, just
18 start at the top.
19 A. We're starting -- you said number -- we're starting at
20 the top of page 11?
21 Q. I'm at the top of page 12.
22 A. Okay. Well, it starts on page 11. So are you --
23 you're talking about the paragraph --
24 Q. Just go ahead and go to the top of page 12.
25 A. Okay.
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1 Q. The first full sentence describes a telephone call with
2 you and Suarez that -- it says, "CS#1 made contact with DEA
3 Atlanta to advise them that Suarez had been calling him/her."
4 That's the same we had before, you didn't actually call DEA,
5 but the DEA happened to be with you, am I right about that?
6 A. I can't -- I can't confirm that. Not on that
7 particular instance I can't confirm that.
8 Q. What do you mean you can't confirm it?
9 A. You're saying is that the same situation like it was on
10 August 5th, that's your question, right?
11 Q. These are the events of August 5th. I'm sorry.
12 A. Oh, these are the August 5th events?
13 Q. These are the August 5th calls.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. If you look back at the page before you'll see.
16 A. Okay. That's what I was saying, are we starting a new
17 paragraph? Because you can get confused if you don't start
18 at the beginning of the heading. Okay. So information --
19 MR. HOAG: Are you still on 22, paragraph 22?
20 THE WITNESS: Page 11.
21 MR. HOAG: Is that where it starts?
22 MR. WELBY: It's paragraph 22. It starts at the
23 bottom of 11 and goes to the top of page 12.
24 MR. HOAG: Yeah.
25 BY MR. WELBY:
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1 Q. The first sentence says, "The CS made contact with DEA
2 Atlanta to advise them that Suarez was calling him/her."
3 That's what we're talking about, right, same thing?
4 A. That's the same thing. That's the correct date. I
5 didn't see the beginning of where we started the sentence.
6 So, again, going back to that statement, the agent was
7 present at my house. So I don't know how you guys are going
8 to word that, but did I contact the agent? The agent was
9 there. So it could be a misinterpretation. And I need
10 everyone to understand that I want it to be honest and true.
11 Did I contact them? He was there. So however you got to
12 word it.
13 Q. Let's go to the next sentence.
14 A. Okay.
15 Q. "CS#1 said that he/she made contact with Suarez on VOIP
16 line (213) 260-2841 to ascertain why he was calling on that
17 date."
18 A. What's "VOIP line"? Just a phone line or a cell phone?
19 Q. I believe it's Voice Over Internet Protocol. It's like
20 a magic mic or a phone, a phone called through your computer.
21 A. Okay. I haven't talked to him through my computer.
22 Q. No, it would be his VOIP line, Suarez.
23 A. Oh, so he's calling me.
24 Q. You never told anybody that he called you on a VOIP
25 line?
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1 A. I don't even know what a VOIP line is.
2 Q. Did you tell him that he called on that number?
3 A. Well, wait a second. Excuse me. Back up. Could that
4 be a walkie-talkie thing if he's dialing me like from a --
5 well, no, I guess it wouldn't be a walkie-talkie. Okay.
6 Never mind. I'm sorry.
7 Q. Okay. As far as you know, you don't know what a VOIP
8 line is?
9 A. No.
10 Q. But there's a specific phone number referenced
11 pertaining to that call.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. Okay. And then the paragraph goes on to describe this
14 conversation with Cuff and about the F'n guys up here with
15 the truck. That's the conversation you've referenced a
16 number of times?
17 A. Right. He did call mad because the truck wasn't -- he
18 said he got those guys up there with a truck and he couldn't
19 get in contact with Cuff.
20 Q. And did you tell DEA in Atlanta or -- I guess whenever
21 we say DEA Atlanta, we're talking Cromer, right?
22 A. Right, Keith was there.
23 Q. And you told him he called on this line?
24 A. Well, Keith was right there again, sir. Keith was
25 right there when all this took place.

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1 Q. Okay. So you didn't tell anybody, Keith just saw what
2 happened?
3 A. Right. That's been the whole -- right, I mean, he
4 heard the conversation. We were on speaker phone.
5 Q. All right. And this conversation was overheard just
6 with him standing there on the speaker phone?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. So if we look down in the footnotes where it describes
9 in Footnote No. 5 at the bottom of the page, referencing that
10 same call, DEA Atlanta advised investigators in St. Louis
11 that this was the conversation that was overheard during a
12 three-way call facilitated by CS#1.
13 A. There was not a three-way call at that time in regards
14 to the truck.
15 Q. The information contained in paragraph 5 is false?
16 A. Correct, not -- that's correct, you are correct.
17 Q. There's absolutely no way that could be true?
18 A. There's no way that particular time could be true.
19 Q. Is there any possible way that Mr. Cromer could have
20 been mistaken about whether it was a three-way call or he was
21 just listening on speaker phone?
22 MR. HOAG: Just for the record, Judge, he should be
23 referring to Footnote 5 and not paragraph 5.
24 MR. WELBY: I am referring to Footnote 5, that's
25 correct.
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1 THE COURT: I think you said paragraph 5.
2 MR. WELBY: I say the wrong thing sometimes.
3 THE COURT: But Footnote 5.
4 BY MR. WELBY:
5 Q. Footnote 5, page 12. There's no doubt in your mind
6 that Mr. Cromer was aware that there was not a three-way call
7 regarding the F'n guys in the truck?
8 A. Correct. At that time you are correct.
9 Q. And as you see this today you're absolutely certain
10 that is a false statement?
11 A. That is correct, on that particular instance that is
12 correct.
13 Q. Let's jump to the next page, page 13, paragraph 23. If
14 it says in here that, "Agents advised that they had two
15 overhears on conversations on that date telephonically
16 established by CS#1 --"
17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Welby, what paragraph are
18 you on?
19 MR. WELBY: 23, Your Honor, second sentence.
20 THE COURT: On page 13?
22 THE COURT: I'm with you.
23 BY MR. WELBY:
24 Q. That statement is false?
25 A. I'm sorry, could you repeat? You're saying the top

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1 paragraph, that it was a three-way?
2 Q. No, paragraph 23.
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. The second sentence. "Agents advised that they had two
5 overhears on conversations on that date which were
6 telephonically established by CS#1 during three-way calls."
7 A. That is not correct. The agent did overhear the
8 conversation, but not via three-way.
9 Q. So that's a false statement?
10 A. Right. There was an overhear, but not with a
11 three-way, so it was partially false.
12 Q. Again, in the footnote it refers to a three-way call.
13 Also not true, there were no three-way calls that day?
14 A. No three-way calls that day unless Keith Cromer made
15 some with the agent, and I don't know about that.
16 Q. And then in paragraph 24, again, mentions a three-way
17 call. Same thing, no three-way calls? Correct? There were
18 no three-way calls that day?
19 A. I'm sorry, I didn't know there was a question. You are
20 correct.
21 Q. And going back to 23 in the middle of the paragraph,
22 third sentence, "Agents were not present with CS#1 during the
23 calls and the overhears were facilitated by three-way calls
24 during a series of calls between Suarez, Gatling, and CS#1."
25 A. During the call on August the 5th when Fidel and Cuff
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1 were to meet with the truck, Keith Cromer was present with
2 me.
3 Q. So that statement is undeniably false?
4 A. Right. Keith was with me.
5 Q. And you never told any agents in St. Louis there was a
6 three-way call?
7 A. We had some three-way calls now, we can go back to
8 that, but not on the date that's in question that you
9 questioned me about. August 5th there was not a three-way
10 call.
11 Q. Okay. That actually was my question. Did you tell DEA
12 agents in St. Louis, did you ever tell them that agents were
13 not present with you during those telephone calls that
14 happened on August the 5th of 2012?
15 A. They never asked. Never told them, it never came up.
16 Q. Did you tell them Keith Cromer was with you?
17 A. No, they just called and asked me questions about
18 Dionne Gatling.
19 Q. They never asked who was with you at that time?
20 A. No.
21 Q. They never asked if you made a three-way call?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Were you ever present during a telephone conversation
24 with Keith Cromer in which he told Brett Johnson that we need
25 to keep CS#1 out of this?

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1 A. I wasn't present -- yes, I think I was present during a
2 call because I was not -- that is correct. You are correct.
3 Q. You heard that?
4 A. I heard him tell somebody, I don't know who was on the
5 other end of the phone, that we're not going to put CS1 in
6 this, we're not going to put her name or anything in this.
7 Q. That they got to keep you out of this?
8 A. Per my direction, correct.
9 Q. Did you ever lie to Brett Johnson?
10 A. I don't even recall speaking to a Brett Johnson.
11 Q. Did you lie to any of the DEA in St. Louis?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you ever lie to Jack Harvey?
14 A. No.
15 Q. If you told Jack Harvey about a three-way call, was
16 that describing the other event that you mentioned earlier?
17 A. It could have been another event.
18 Q. It wouldn't have anything to do with the events of
19 August 5th?
20 A. Correct, that was an overhear versus a three-way.
21 Q. Did you ever tell Meech that the information in this
22 affidavit is not true?
23 A. Yes, I have.
24 Q. And by "Meech" I mean Demetrius Flenory.
25 A. Demetrius Flenory. Yes, I told him certain parts is

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1 not true.
2 Q. What did you tell him wasn't true, the same thing we
3 just talked about?
4 A. Correct.
5 Q. Did you tell him the whole thing wasn't true?
6 A. I didn't get too far into details with him and he
7 really didn't want to hear about it because he didn't want
8 his name caught up in this mess.
9 Q. Did you -- you were asked earlier about a conversation
10 you had with somebody at Albert Watkins' office,
11 Mr. Gatling's former attorney?
12 A. I'm sorry, can you repeat that for me?
13 Q. Do you remember talking about a Samuel Wallach, one of
14 the attorneys for Mr. Gatling's former law firm?
15 A. Oh, okay, yes, the phone call I made.
16 Q. You remember that call, right?
17 A. Uh-huh.
18 Q. You called him up, and did you tell him that the
19 government's version of events was factually inaccurate?
20 A. Correct, based off what you just asked me, that's what
21 I was talking about.
22 Q. Did you tell them that you had tried to relay this
23 information to the government on numerous occasions?
24 A. To the DEA agent that it wasn't true when I tried to
25 make the phone calls. And I didn't get a call back from St.
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1 Louis, when they didn't call me back.
2 Q. Which one was that? Which agent did you call?
3 A. Whoever is listed on this paperwork. Whoever is listed
4 on some of this paperwork that I was looking at, that's the
5 number I called.
6 Q. Let's go to that.
7 A. It may not have been this one, because I think this
8 is -- it was Brett. It was Brett.
9 Q. It was Brett Johnson?
10 A. It was Brett.
11 Q. You called Brett Johnson, you told him that the
12 information in this affidavit is not true?
13 A. It was Brett, Brett Johnson. It was Brett.
14 Q. And just to be clear, you told him the information in
15 the government's affidavit is factually incorrect, and he
16 never called you back?
17 A. I told him that some of the information in the
18 affidavit is not correct.
19 Q. And did you tell him that -- did you tell Mr. Gatling's
20 former attorneys that the government is lying?
21 A. I sure did.
22 Q. After that conversation with Mr. Drake, you then
23 prepared an affidavit, am I correct about that?
24 A. I did.
25 Q. I said Mr. Drake, but I meant Mr. Wallach.

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1 A. Right.
2 Q. Okay. So after you called Mr. Gatling's former
3 attorney, you were upset, you told him what you were upset
4 about, that there was false information in the affidavit.
5 You then prepared an affidavit that you said you intended to
6 send to the Court and all the parties in the case?
7 A. I was going to send it to the judge.
8 Q. To the judge?
9 A. And everybody was going to get a copy, but it was going
10 to be made to the judge.
11 Q. And in that affidavit you again say that the
12 information in this case leading up to the indictment was
13 false and inaccurate?
14 A. Based on everything you just went over is where I was
15 getting information to say that some things are inaccurate.
16 Based on what we just went over in the last ten minutes is
17 how I led up to that determination to say that.
18 Q. And it also says that you did have conversations with
19 Dionne Gatling but that those prior conversations didn't have
20 anything to do with drugs, they were about the movie deal?
22 Q. And it indicates further on that you did not meet with
23 two or more DEA agents about Dionne Gatling?
24 A. That is correct, going back to what you just said,
25 Keith was there versus meeting with them. I still told --

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1 the agent still knew about it, but I didn't call them up and
2 said let's meet to discuss this case, correct.
3 Q. And you said that because some of the references are to
4 DEA agents, plural, rather than just Keith Cromer?
6 Q. And you were upset about that because it wasn't true?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. You told them you were on a personal date with DEA head
9 supervisor in Atlanta office, Keith Cromer?
11 Q. And the conversation took place with the two of you
12 alone?
14 Q. And, again, we talked about Flenory's information,
15 hooking up the deal, all that was false?
17 Q. You were upset about this because these facts were not
18 correct; is that right?
20 Q. And the way the affidavit is written, you're described
21 as the main person who is telling the story as CS#1, right?
23 Q. And I don't want to misquote you on this, you said that
24 "I am listed as the main source of the story"?
25 A. I feel that I'm listed as the main of all of this.

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1 MR. HOAG: Where are you talking, Steve?
2 MR. WELBY: Page 2, third paragraph from the bottom.
3 THE COURT: You're referencing Defense Exhibit F?
4 MR. WELBY: Defense Exhibit F, yes, the affidavit.
5 BY MR. WELBY:
6 Q. At the last sentence of that same paragraph, "DEA in
7 St. Louis received most of their information from Agent Keith
8 Cromer. As I was told by Keith to make sure David, to tell
9 David of the stuff that he discussed with St. Louis."
11 Q. So most of the information other than getting the
12 numbers from you and a summary of the conversation that you
13 had with Gatling and Suarez, all of the other information
14 came from Keith Cromer?
15 A. That is correct. I did talk to the agent when he
16 called me about the August 5th call. I think it was a day
17 later or something like that. And we discussed that
18 conversation. But most of the other information did come
19 from Keith Cromer to St. Louis, that is correct.
20 Q. And you were so upset about it you said the DEA from
21 Atlanta and St. Louis are just crooks?
22 A. Yes, I did say that.
23 Q. You had signed this affidavit?
24 A. Yes, I did.
25 Q. And you had intended to file it?

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1 A. Yes, I did.
2 Q. Am I correct that you were told not to send this
3 affidavit by J. Graviss and Matthew?
4 A. No, Matthew didn't say it. I think Ms. Graviss said,
5 "Hold off before you send it." She didn't say not to send
6 it, she basically said, "Hold off before you send it."
7 Q. Right. Showing you Defendants' Exhibit F. Is that
8 your handwriting?
9 A. That's it.
10 Q. "Per meeting with J. Graviss and Matthew, do not send
11 this affidavit."
12 A. Yeah, that's just my notes, self notes, uh-huh.
13 Q. And that there was some other, "Met at the lobby of the
14 Embassy Suites Hotel"?
15 A. Correct.
16 Q. And it says, quote, Well, my name wasn't mentioned,
17 closed quote?
18 A. That was conversation I had with the other agent, I
19 think it was Matthew Drake, if he came with Jeannette that
20 day. I think that was his name. He made the comment and
21 said, "Well, technically your name is not in there" or
22 something to that effect. I said, "Well, if they got CS1
23 listed then they know it's in there because my job
24 information is in there." And I got a little upset with him
25 about that conversation.

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1 Q. Getting back to this movie deal real quick. If this
2 movie goes through, am I correct that you could make $100,000
3 as an executive producer?
4 A. No, that's not true.
5 Q. Did you ever tell Special Agent Harvey that?
6 A. If we did the movie, but we're not working on a movie
7 right now.
8 Q. If you did the movie, you would get $100,000 as an
9 executive producer?
10 A. No. If we did the movie, I would get probably more
11 like a million dollars if it goes through.
12 Q. So you could get a million dollars out of this deal?
13 A. Could.
14 Q. And you received money -- as soon as you started
15 working with Keith Cromer, you started receiving almost
16 $2,500 every month?
17 A. I would say that or different amounts.
18 Q. And total for your cooperation in that phase, you
19 received over $212,000?
20 A. I can't confirm that until I see all the green slips.
21 Q. You saw the sheets we had up before through May?
22 A. I just seen those, and I can't validate those until I
23 see my signature on everything.
24 Q. All right.
25 A. Okay.
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1 Q. Would that be a rough approximation, $200,000?
2 A. That is a rough guess.
3 Q. And since that time you've received additional money,
4 some of that was for moving and security and relocating fees?
5 A. I haven't really received anything, it was just for
6 moving because of all of this. So it wasn't that I benefited
7 from it, it was just an inconvenience to me to move away from
8 my home because of threats that I'm getting.
9 Q. So we looked at Defendants' Exhibit M. The $5,000, the
10 $6,000, those are both marked as relocation?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. So you got $11,000 to move?
13 A. Absolutely. I had to break a lease and pay 4,000
14 because I had to move. And then I had to relocate. The
15 movers charged $3,000. And then I had to pay first and last
16 month on deposit. So I think I came out about $800 of my own
17 money.
18 Q. And the government paid for that?
19 A. No, I'm still about $800 short.
20 Q. Except for your $800, the government paid you $11,000
21 to relocate; is that correct?
22 A. Correct. And for staying -- you got to understand, I
23 had to stay in a hotel for several weeks before my duplex was
24 ready.
25 Q. Did they give you a thousand dollars for security?

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1 A. I don't recall that.
2 Q. Maybe that's just what it cost.
3 A. I don't know, I can't validate that thousand dollars.
4 Q. They didn't give you a thousand dollars cash and say
5 buy some security?
6 A. They could have, but I don't recall that.
7 Q. Because right now the government provides security for
8 you; isn't that right?
9 A. What do you mean provided -- they are giving me
10 security, absolutely.
11 Q. And they've protected you for many, many months on this
12 case?
13 A. They have.
14 Q. And as a part of that they've had to relocate you and
15 get you new cars?
16 A. Correct. They didn't get me a new car, I bought my own
17 car. They had to reimburse me for the loss of my car because
18 my car was, quote, unquote, identified for my job.
19 Q. And they are helping you protect not only yourself but
20 your daughter?
21 A. Correct.
22 Q. And the government flew you up here at their expense?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. And the government has provided whatever you need as
25 far as closing the courtroom or anything else in this case?

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1 A. Well, I would say that was the kindness of the judge, I
2 wouldn't say so much the DA.
3 Q. You asked the government to request the judge to close
4 the courtroom?
5 A. I asked them.
6 Q. And the government did that for you?
7 A. Well, I think the judge did. I don't know. You're
8 asking me. I can't answer that. I thought the judge did it
9 in Washington to be quite honest with you.
10 Q. So you're not aware that the government -- after
11 receiving your request to file a motion to close the
12 courtroom, did, in fact, file a motion to close the
13 courtroom?
14 A. Actually I asked them several months ago if they could
15 file the motion, and I think it took them a little bit of
16 time to do it, so I was going to do it myself, whatever I
17 needed to do to get it done or to try to get it done with or
18 without the government.
19 Q. In August of 2012 you filed bankruptcy?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. You were $100,000 in debt?
22 A. 150.
23 Q. $150,000 in debt?
24 A. Uh-huh.
25 Q. And since that time you have received almost a quarter

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1 of a million dollars in cash payments, awards, benefits, and
2 compensation from the United States government?
3 A. Uh-huh. Yes.
4 Q. Do you use some of that money to pay people in prison?
5 A. Do I use some of that money? No.
6 Q. You've never given any money to somebody in prison?
7 A. Absolutely I have, all the time.
8 Q. Why?
9 A. Commissary.
10 Q. Do you give money to Terry White?
11 A. I sent Terry White $500 one time. He wanted to do an
12 art class, art craft class.
13 Q. I'm going to show you what I've marked as Defendants'
14 Exhibit N, as in Nancy. You can see it on the TV screen in
15 front of you.
16 A. I got a question for you. I'm just curious. I know
17 this doesn't really pertain to this case to a certain extent,
18 but you're exposing people that's incarcerated. They are
19 incarcerated and they get sentenced, won't they know these
20 people? I mean, I don't think that's a good idea.
21 Q. Am I correct that --
22 MR. HOAG: It's a closed hearing, okay, so nobody --
23 THE COURT: You're concerned about --
24 THE WITNESS: The inmates.
25 THE COURT: My question, and, Mr. Welby, I know this

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1 was disclosed to you late. The Court reviewed this very
2 late. Where are we going with the questions? Why is this
3 relevant to anything that's before me? That's really what I
4 want to know before we go down this path.
5 MR. WELBY: I think it goes to her credibility and
6 bias.
7 THE COURT: I figured you were trying to establish
8 bias.
9 MR. WELBY: Right.
10 THE COURT: If the money is going out and not coming
11 in to her, how is this relevant to bias?
12 MR. WELBY: Well, in 2012 she's $150,000 in debt and
13 in 2015 she's sending money six times a day to people in
14 prison. It seems to me a motive for her to try and please
15 the government and the reason why she needs all this money.
16 THE WITNESS: I disagree with that totally.
17 THE COURT: I'll let you ask her questions, but
18 let's not go too far down this hole because it seems real,
19 real remotely related. But go ahead.
20 BY MR. WELBY:
21 Q. Did you give Terry White $410 in November of last year?
22 A. Yes, I did.
23 Q. Terry White is the same guy that you helped set up,
24 take down, and got an award?
25 A. Absolutely. He's asked me to marry him six months ago,

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1 and I've been to see him one time.
2 Q. You been to visit him also, right?
3 A. Uh-huh, I sure have.
4 Q. On June 7th of last year?
5 A. Last year.
6 Q. And you gave him another $300 at that time?
7 A. I did.
8 Q. During August of 2012 were you in regular conversations
9 with individuals in the Department of Corrections?
10 A. Family members, yes. Family members and friends,
11 yes.
12 Q. And friend of CS1?
13 A. Friend of CS1.
14 Q. Is that a friend or family member?
15 A. A very close friend.
16 Q. And you went to see --
17 A. His mother is my godmother.
18 Q. You went to see him five times in August of 2012?
19 A. I may have. If that's what it says, absolutely. I'm
20 pretty sure that's my right, though, but okay.
21 MR. WELBY: Your Honor, that's all my questions.
23 THE COURT: Mr. Herman, I'm going to take a little
24 recess. It's almost ten past three. I'd like to take about
25 a five- to eight-minute break. If we can get back here as

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1 close to 3:15 as possible so we can begin your
2 cross-examination. Court is in recess at this time.
3 Let me remind the witness that she's going to
4 continue to be under oath. She is to let me know if
5 anyone other than her court-appointed attorney approaches
6 her.
7 Let me remind everyone who is free to leave the
8 courtroom that they are not to discuss the contents of this
9 hearing, especially this portion of the hearing with anyone
10 who is not standing inside of this room at this time, just in
11 case that was not clear.
12 All right. We'll see you back here at close to
13 3:15.
15 MR. REILLY: May we make a record?
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 MR. REILLY: Judge, we got notified by the United
18 States Marshals at the break, Deputy Abegg, that somebody had
19 contacted or looked at the CS LinkedIn profile, which my
20 understanding is these messages are visible to the -- when
21 somebody gets a contact, that the person who is contacted can
22 see the name of who is looking at them. And so there is a
23 photograph of a female, but the name associated -- that hit
24 on CS1 or the CS account is -- was Dionne L. Gatling, all
25 right. And apparently that just happened.

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1 So I'd just like to make an inquiry of the witness
2 before we proceed here. A, make a record that this just
3 happened. And make an inquiry just to determine if she's
4 okay to proceed based on the contact over the LinkedIn
5 account. Is that a fair summary, Mr. Newton?
6 MR. NEWTON: That is.
7 THE COURT: Okay. Yes, you may. It doesn't sound
8 as if Mr. Reilly is suggesting that Mr. Gatling made the
9 contact.
10 MR. REILLY: No.
11 THE COURT: But somebody did using Mr. Gatling's
12 name apparently.
13 MR. REILLY: Do you mind if we approach the bench
14 and do this at side bar?
15 THE COURT: With the witness?
16 MR. REILLY: With the witness.
17 THE COURT: Okay. I don't know how we're going to
18 do that.
19 (There was a conference held at the bench and is
20 SEALED and FOR ATTORNEYS EYES ONLY. The transcript of this
21 bench conference can be found in a separate volume marked FOR
22 ATTORNEYS EYES ONLY.)
23 THE COURT: Mr. Herman, are you ready? All right.
24 CS1, please remember that you are still under oath.

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1 CROSS-EXAMINATION
2 BY MR. HERMAN:
5 Q. My name is Bob Herman, and I represent Andre Rush.
6 That's not a name you're familiar with, is it, personally?
7 A. Not -- I don't know him personally. I'm familiar with
8 the name but I don't know --
9 Q. You've never met him.
10 A. Never met him.
11 Q. Don't have any information on him other than what
12 you've read in the government documents?
13 A. Other than what I've read in the government documents.
14 Q. Now, you've been in the business world for quite some
15 time?
16 A. Repeat yourself. I'm sorry?
17 Q. You've been in the business world for quite some time?
18 A. Yes, I have.
19 Q. And you're a professional?
20 A. Yes, I am.
21 Q. And you understands what a professional relationship
22 is, don't you?
23 A. Absolutely.
24 Q. Okay. And not much hugging and kissing going on at
25 your workplace, is it?

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1 A. I disagree with that, but I am familiar with
2 professionalism.
3 Q. You think hugging and kissing is part of a
4 professional --
5 A. No, it's just a lot going on in my company, that's what
6 you asked.
7 Q. But you had a professional relationship with Jack
8 Harvey, didn't you?
9 A. Yes, I did.
10 Q. Much hugging and kissing going on there?
11 A. None whatsoever.
12 Q. None whatsoever. And you didn't see Mr. Harvey in
13 anything other than a situation where there were two agents
14 present; is that right?
16 Q. That was a professional relationship?
18 Q. You didn't go out drinking with Mr. Harvey?
19 A. No, I did not.
20 Q. You didn't go out and do social events with Mr. Harvey?
22 Q. And the reason you didn't do that is because that's
23 prohibited by the agent's code of conduct; isn't that right?
24 A. I don't know their code of conduct, but I know that
25 what you're saying is correct in regards to Mr. Jack Harvey.

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1 Q. You know that the rules governing the behavior of
2 agents prohibit that kind of personal relationship, correct?
3 A. I can't answer that because I don't know the government
4 rules.
5 Q. Now, you've told us that some time after Mr. Harvey
6 retired you met Mr. Cromer. And so I'm having trouble
7 putting a date on it. So would you accept my representation
8 that Mr. Harvey retired in July of 2011, does that sound
9 right to you?
10 A. I don't know the date. I don't know exactly when he
11 retired.
12 Q. If Mr. Harvey says he retired in July '11, you have no
13 information to disagree with that, do you?
15 Q. And you said that it was within days that you met
16 Mr. Cromer?
17 A. No, I met Mr. Cromer previously before Mr. Harvey
18 retired, sir.
19 Q. So now you met Mr. Cromer before Mr. Harvey retired?
20 A. Well, you're saying "so now you met," no one has ever
21 asked me when I met --
22 MR. HOAG: Objection to "now," okay.
23 THE COURT: Could you rephrase your question.
24 MR. HERMAN: All right. And I'm having -- I don't
25 know if my ears are blocked up, but I'm having --

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1 A. It may be me. I'll talk louder.
2 Q. So when did you first meet Mr. Cromer in relationship
3 to Mr. Harvey's retirement?
4 A. I met Mr. Cromer one time prior to Mr. Harvey retiring
5 at Jason's Deli with Mr. Harvey and I think another agent.
6 Q. Okay. So that was planned for Mr. Harvey to introduce
7 you to Mr. Cromer before he retired?
8 A. No, no. I think he was just in the car. I just -- we
9 only said, "Hi, how you doing, nice to meet you." I didn't
10 even really remember him to tell you the truth from that
11 first meeting.
12 Q. Now, you said earlier that it was a couple days after
13 Mr. Harvey retiring that you became -- you became a
14 confidential source being supervised by Mr. Cromer, correct?
15 A. No, what I said was I think within a day or two Keith
16 Cromer called me and told me to call his cell phone from via
17 email. And then we met a few days after that at the mall.
18 Q. So a day or two after Mr. Harvey retired, correct?
19 A. I was reached by -- and it could have been the same
20 day, I don't really remember if it was a day or two days, but
21 I was contacted by Keith Cromer to call his cell phone.
22 Q. So if you accept the representation that Mr. Harvey
23 retired in July '11, July of 2011, that would put your phone
24 call from Mr. Cromer to you some time in July of 2011,
25 correct?
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2 Q. All right. And then he called you and asked you to
3 call him; is that right?
4 A. Correct, he told me to call him on his cell phone.
5 Q. All right. And did you do that right away?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. So that's in July of 2011?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. All right. And then did he ask you to meet him
10 somewhere?
11 A. He asked me -- he wanted to talk to me about something
12 and he wanted to meet me, yes, sir.
13 Q. And where did he want to meet you?
14 A. He said, "Where do you live close to?" And I told him
15 at the time. And he said, "Okay. We can meet you. How
16 about Stonecrest because I got to pick up my wife a birthday
17 gift, so we can meet at Stonecrest Mall." And I said,
18 "Okay."
19 Q. Stonecrest Mall?
20 A. Yes, in Lithonia, Georgia.
21 Q. All right. So you met in a public place?
22 A. We met at Macy's.
23 Q. At Macy's.
24 A. Stonecrest Mall.
25 Q. All right. And did Mr. Cromer have another agent with
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1 him?
2 A. Yes, he did, I think it was Tony that day. Tony,
3 Anthony.
4 Q. Tony Aguilar?
5 A. No, that's David.
6 Q. Tony Smith?
7 A. I don't know his last name, I just know him as Tony.
8 Q. Is he a white guy or an African American?
9 A. No, he's black.
10 Q. And was there any hugging and kissing going on in that
11 meeting?
12 A. No.
13 Q. All right. When is the next time you met with him
14 right after that?
15 A. Probably maybe a week later, four or five days later.
16 Q. All right. And did you meet with him?
17 A. I met with him and an agent, I think it was maybe him
18 and David or him and Fred, I don't remember who it was.
19 Q. All right. You met with him and another agent?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. And was it also in a public place?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Where was it?
24 A. I don't recall.
25 Q. Was that also in July of 2011?

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1 A. I'm sure it was.
2 Q. All right. And at that time was there any hugging and
3 kissing going on?
4 A. No, sir.
5 Q. You can see what I'm getting to, don't you? When
6 did --
7 A. Well, you can just ask the question if you'd like. The
8 hugging and kissing started after the romantic relationship
9 started.
10 Q. When did the hugging and kissing start?
11 A. I don't remember the exact date, but it did start.
12 Q. All right. So let's keep talking through this.
13 A. Okay.
14 Q. So we're still in July 2011. Was there any hugging and
15 kissing going on between you and Mr. Cromer in July 2011?
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. All right. So when's the next time you met with him
18 after the second meeting?
19 A. I met with Mr. Cromer a lot of times after the second
20 date just to have conversation, to meet the other staff
21 members, the teammates or whatever you call them. So we had
22 multiple meetings.
23 Q. Multiple meetings. And they were always with one or
24 more other agent besides Mr. Cromer, correct?
25 A. That is correct. At that time that is correct.

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1 Q. At some point Mr. Cromer started meeting with you by
2 himself, correct?
3 A. That is correct. He called one day, and I think the
4 first time we met alone he asked me could I meet him at
5 Applebee's in Conyers, Georgia. And he was really -- he said
6 he needed someone to talk to or something. I was like, "Are
7 you okay?" His son passed away with cancer at 12, so he was
8 really down and out. So I met with him at Applebee's.
9 Q. So you met at Applebee's?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. And he was alone and you were alone?
12 A. Uh-huh.
13 Q. Yes?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Uh-huh is hard for --
16 A. I'm sorry, and I didn't mean to say that.
17 Q. So was there any hugging and kissing going on at that
18 meeting?
19 A. No, no kissing going on at that meeting.
20 Q. Hugging?
21 A. No, I don't think there was any hugging at that either.
22 Q. And he said at that time that there was something
23 wrong, that he was upset about something and needed to talk
24 to you?
25 A. Actually let me back up. I apologize. When I met

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1 Keith the first time -- I wouldn't use the word alone. That
2 was I think our second meeting, because the first one he
3 called and asked me to meet him at Benchwarmer's in
4 Stockbridge, Georgia. He said meet us at Benchwarmer's in
5 Stockbridge. But when I met "us," us was not -- I'm thinking
6 he's referring to other agents, but it was his college
7 friends. It was his best friend Maurice and two other guys,
8 and they were watching the game. And I didn't -- you know,
9 he was like, no, these aren't agents. But I thought he said
10 this is my best friend and he introduced me. And then
11 thereafter we did the Applebee's.
12 Q. They were watching a game?
13 A. Uh-huh, at Benchwarmer's.
14 Q. At where?
15 A. It's a sports bar, sports bar and grill.
16 Q. In suburban Atlanta?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And what kind of game was it? Was it baseball?
19 A. I don't remember. I don't do sports.
20 Q. Baseball? Basketball?
21 A. I have no idea.
22 Q. And daytime or nighttime?
23 A. It was evening, like six or seven-ish.
24 Q. And so you met at a sports bar. And you met him and a
25 person he described as his best friend?

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1 A. Yes, it was his best friend Maurice I think is his
2 friend.
3 Q. And did you talk about agency business or did you talk
4 about personal business?
5 A. No, we just talked about life.
6 Q. Just talked about life?
7 A. Uh-huh, nothing business, nothing real personal, but
8 nothing business related.
9 Q. Okay. At that time did he tell you about his family?
10 A. In regards to -- no, he didn't really start talking
11 about his family until Applebee's.
12 Q. Until Applebee's? Same night?
13 A. No, Applebee's was a different occasion. That was a
14 different date.
15 Q. A different date.
16 A. Two different times, two different dates.
17 Q. All right. So let's start with the sports bar. Is
18 that still in July of 2011?
19 A. Oh, no, I don't think it was July. No, it was
20 thereafter. It was some time after July. It wasn't the same
21 month.
22 Q. Days? Weeks? Months?
23 A. Months I would say maybe.
24 Q. Months, okay. More than two months? More than one
25 month?
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1 A. Maybe two months, something like that.
2 Q. Maybe two months.
3 A. I'm guessing.
4 Q. So maybe we're talking about September of 2011?
5 A. I can't be exact on the dates, sir.
6 Q. I'm not asking you to be exact. I understand I heard
7 you resist to try to put a date on things, but give me an
8 approximation.
9 A. I'm not resisting, but I just want to be truthful.
10 Q. I understand.
11 A. So you're asking me to give you an approximation of
12 something I can't do. I can tell you how it transpired, but
13 you're asking me dates, and I can't lie and tell you
14 something I don't know.
15 Q. All right. So was it cold outside or was it warm
16 outside?
17 A. I don't know. I don't know if it was cold or warm. I
18 really -- I mean, seriously I have no clue if it was cold or
19 warm outside.
20 Q. Were you wearing a coat or not?
21 A. Well, that's what I was trying to recollect, but I
22 don't remember wearing a coat, but I'm anemic so I wear a
23 coat even -- I had the heat on 82 last night, so --
24 Q. All right. So is it fair to say we're still in the
25 fall of 2011?
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1 A. I can't remember the date. I can't remember if it was
2 fall or not.
3 Q. And so that date was the date you met with Mr. Cromer
4 and his best college friend, correct?
5 A. I met with Mr. Cromer and his college friends. College
6 friends. I think it was more than one besides Maurice.
7 That's the first time, if I remember correctly, that I met
8 with Keith. I think Applebee's came thereafter.
9 Q. Okay. And did you drink at the place you met?
10 A. I had one drink. I don't really drink. Applebee's was
11 first because I did have a drink that night. Applebee's was
12 first, I do recall that now 100 percent. Applebee's was
13 first and then the meeting of the college friends was second,
14 just for the record.
15 Q. So the first time you met with him alone was
16 Applebee's?
17 A. That is correct. You are correct.
18 Q. And he called you up and said, "I need somebody to talk
19 to"?
20 A. Uh-huh, that's correct.
21 Q. Did he say I need somebody to talk to about agency
22 business?
23 A. No, it was personal, it was just friendship.
24 Q. Okay. Just friendship. It was the kind of friendship,
25 professional relationship that you had with Mr. Harvey,

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1 correct?
2 A. You are 100 percent.
3 Q. It was -- did something -- did you think something at
4 that time, something is wrong with this, this is different
5 than the other agents that I met with?
6 A. I didn't even think about that. I was just like -- I
7 felt sorry for him because he just lost his kid.
8 Q. Ahh, so he just lost a kid. It happened right after he
9 lost a kid?
10 A. Yeah, it was during that time when he had lost his son.
11 Q. When did he lose his son?
12 A. I don't know when Nicholas passed away, but I know it
13 was shortly thereafter. It was during the time right after
14 Jack Harvey retired.
15 Q. So it was right after Jack Harvey retired?
16 A. I think so, because Jack Harvey attended the funeral,
17 yes.
18 Q. So Jack Harvey retired in July of 2011. So how long
19 after he retired was this incident then?
20 A. You just asked me that. I don't know when Nicholas
21 passed away.
22 Q. It was close to the time that Jack Harvey retired?
23 A. A couple months after maybe, something like that I'm
24 guessing.
25 Q. All right. And so you had this meeting at Applebee's.

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1 You had dinner?
2 A. No, we set at the bar.
3 Q. You just sat at the bar. You had a drink; he had a
4 drink?
5 A. No, I didn't have a drink that night.
6 Q. Did he have a drink?
7 A. I think he had a beer or he was eating peanuts and
8 ordered nachos or appetizer or something. Yeah, I think he
9 did have a beer.
10 Q. Okay. And what did he tell you?
11 A. He was just talking about his son and how hard it was
12 and, you know, he's going through some things with his wife
13 and --
14 Q. What did he tell you about his wife?
15 A. That she was having an affair, and that it was really
16 hurting him when he found out about it, and that he thinks
17 this death of his son is going to break their relationship.
18 And, you know, he talked about his other son, how good he
19 does in track, and just general stuff about his family.
20 Q. And did you tell him about your family?
21 A. Yes, I did. Just in conversation about my husband, you
22 know, kind of how I grew up and things of that nature.
23 Q. And did you think to yourself at that time that this
24 might turn into a romantic relationship?
25 A. No. No.
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1 Q. Were you interested in him?
2 A. No.
3 Q. So after that first Applebee's, then you had another
4 time you met with him --
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. -- at a sports bar?
7 A. Correct.
8 Q. Where he met you and introduced you to his best friend
9 from college?
10 A. Correct, Maurice. I think he's still his best friend
11 or was up until a couple years ago.
12 Q. Was there any information -- let me take a step back to
13 the Applebee's. When you met at Applebee's, did you talk
14 about drug transactions?
15 A. No.
16 Q. It was all personal business?
17 A. It was just personal, just regular conversations.
18 Q. When you met at the sports bar did you talk about drug
19 transactions?
20 A. No.
21 Q. It was all personal business?
22 A. It was all personal, just life and the game. And
23 really I was talking to the other two guys there, they were
24 talking about how they grew up in Decatur and so on.
25 Q. How did he introduce you to the other two guys who were
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1 there?
2 A. Hey, this is my name and this is his name, and I shook
3 their hand and how you doing.
4 Q. Earlier you said that at some point people who saw you
5 together would understand that you were a couple of some
6 sort. Didn't I hear you say that?
7 A. You are correct.
8 Q. Okay. Is this one of those times when people would see
9 you as a couple?
10 A. No. No.
11 Q. Too early?
12 A. I wouldn't really say -- well, of course it was too
13 early. But, yes, we weren't -- he's a very touchy-feely
14 person, and he's very romantic. So he likes to hold hands.
15 He likes to kiss on your forehead a lot and your hair. You
16 know, he loves to -- he's a touchy-feely person so that's how
17 you would know in public if it was romantic.
18 Q. So at Applebee's did he hold your hand?
19 A. No. No.
20 Q. Did he touch your hair or kiss on your hair?
21 A. No. No.
22 Q. When did that start?
23 A. Several -- a few months after. It started with a kiss
24 in the car.
25 Q. It started with a kiss in the car?

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1 A. Yes.
2 Q. All right. Let's back up from the kiss in the car.
3 Where were you that evening? Was it evening?
4 A. I think we were actually at Benchwarmer's again.
5 Q. You were what?
6 A. At Benchwarmer's again.
7 Q. That's the sports bar?
8 A. Uh-huh, that's his favorite place to eat.
9 Q. And was it with other friends?
10 A. Yeah, it was with other friends that night as well.
11 Q. I'm sorry?
12 A. Yes, it was.
13 Q. It wasn't with other agents?
14 A. No, it was not other agents.
15 Q. And there was no drug business being discussed?
16 A. No, it was not.
17 Q. No agency business being discussed?
18 A. No, it was not.
19 Q. Was it just strictly a friend kind of date?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. All right. And after that -- had he picked you up at
22 your residence?
23 A. Not that particular night, no. Not that night he did
24 not.
25 Q. All right. "That night" we're talking about the -- I'm

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1 focusing on the first time he kissed you.
2 A. The kiss. You said the first kiss. I met him there.
3 We had -- we didn't have dinner, I think we had wings or
4 something. I got ready to leave. It was kind of late. And
5 Stockbridge from my house is a lot of back roads and dark
6 roads with no streetlights, so he's like, "I'm going to
7 follow you to make sure you make it home." Because I had one
8 martini. I don't drink, so if I drink a martini that's it
9 for me. So I was like, no -- I was a little tipsy, and I
10 said, "No, I'm okay." "No, I'm going to follow you." I
11 insisted that he didn't and stay with his friends or
12 whatever. So he walked me out to the car, and then he was
13 like, okay, and we hugged and then unfortunately that led to
14 a kiss.
15 Q. And was this like a friendly business hug?
16 A. It was a good-bye hug. He reached over. I feel a
17 little embarrassed saying this so I apologize. I set in the
18 driver's seat because I'm getting ready to crank my car to
19 leave. And he's in the visitor seat. All right. He got
20 ready to hug me bye, and then he just pulled my hair and
21 kissed me. I'm sorry.
22 Q. He reached over and grabbed you by your hair and pulled
23 you toward him?
24 A. Yeah, not like hard, he just kind of grabbed my head
25 and --
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1 Q. He pulled you toward him?
2 A. I'm sorry. Yeah, but I mean -- I'm not disputing this
3 relationship with Mr. Cromer. I just don't know where you're
4 going, but that's okay.
5 Q. Well, I'm trying to establish dates. I'm trying to
6 figure out when all this happened.
7 MR. HERMAN: And I do have a point, Your Honor,
8 believe it or not.
9 THE COURT: I was just about to ask you to get
10 there.
11 MR. HERMAN: I'm getting there. I'm getting there.
12 BY MR. HERMAN:
13 Q. So this developed from that kiss into more physical
14 contact, right?
15 A. No, not at that time because --
16 Q. Not at that time.
17 A. Yeah, not at that time because I wasn't going to have
18 sex with him.
19 Q. Soon thereafter?
20 A. I'm sorry?
21 Q. Soon thereafter?
22 A. No, I wouldn't really say soon thereafter because we
23 agreed not to have sex until he divorced his wife. That was
24 our agreement. You're asking, so I'm telling.
25 Q. Why would you even have that conversation, let's not

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1 have sex until you divorce your wife?
2 A. Because we were intimately kissing and I guess we had a
3 desire -- we're human, so we had a desire for one another.
4 That's -- you know, keep in mind I had not been sexually
5 active until Terry White. So I had not had sexual
6 intercourse for quite some time. And I have been celibate
7 since Keith Cromer. So if that answers your question. I
8 mean, we are human, we have physical needs. So we both had a
9 desire, but we chose not to go there, to answer your
10 question.
11 Q. So there was a -- prior to the time that this ripened
12 into sexual intercourse, there was physical intimate contact,
13 correct?
14 A. Kissing and hugging, you are correct.
15 Q. Kissing and hugging and touching?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Sexual type of touching?
18 THE COURT: Mr. Herman.
19 MR. HERMAN: And the purpose of this is --
20 THE COURT: I need to know why we're going down this
21 road.
22 MR. HERMAN: Your Honor, it's not for salacious
23 reasons, I guarantee that.
24 THE COURT: Well, I can't tell.
25 MR. HERMAN: But you will after -- just give me --

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1 THE COURT: How is it relevant? Tell me how it's
2 relevant before we go forward. What's going on? Hold on.
3 MR. HERMAN: Let me just go forward. I'll go
4 ahead --
5 MR. HOAG: The blinds. They want to move the
6 blinds.
7 THE COURT: Oh, the blinds. I have people waving
8 behind you.
10 THE COURT: Sorry.
11 MR. HERMAN: So I'll skip the details and we'll just
12 go from there.
13 BY MR. HERMAN:
14 Q. Were you in a personal, intimate, touching relationship
15 prior to Thanksgiving?
16 THE COURT: Of what year?
17 A. Thanksgiving of what year?
18 Q. Of 2011. Thank you.
19 A. I mean, I guess I was. I can't say the date. We were
20 in an intimate relationship. We were definitely in a sexual,
21 intimate relationship --
22 Q. Prior to Thanksgiving?
23 A. Of 2011?
24 Q. Correct.
25 A. Prior to Thanksgiving of 2011? I can't say that. I

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1 think maybe we were not sexually active at that time. Don't
2 hold me to it, because I remember he spent Thanksgiving with
3 me, and I don't think at that time we were sexually active.
4 Q. Well, and here's the point. Sexually active, I don't
5 mean having intercourse, I mean was there physical intimacy
6 prior to that time?
7 A. He was at my house on Thanksgiving. I think we
8 probably were kissing at that time.
9 Q. All right. And that occurred prior to Thanksgiving,
10 that physical intimacy occurred prior to Thanksgiving,
11 correct?
12 A. I know Thanksgiving. Now, it could have been 2012
13 Thanksgiving. I know we spent a Thanksgiving together, sir.
14 Q. The point is you started receiving payments, regular
15 monthly payments beginning around Thanksgiving --
16 A. Right.
17 Q. -- of 2011?
18 A. That could be so. Whatever the date you have on the
19 monetary money is correct.
20 MR. HERMAN: Does that answer your question, Judge?
21 THE COURT: About your point?
22 MR. HERMAN: Yes.
23 THE COURT: Barely.
24 MR. HERMAN: Well, then you'll have to wait for my
25 brief. I'll keep you in suspense, Judge.

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1 A. Let me just say this just to clarify something. The
2 money started way before me and Keith Cromer started an
3 intimate relationship just for the record. The money started
4 way before an intimate relationship between Keith Cromer and
5 myself. I don't know dates, but I do know that.
6 Q. Let me give you an opportunity to clarify something.
7 Mr. Hoag asked you, ma'am, whether you were ever asked by any
8 government agent to lie about a fact or whether you did lie
9 to any government agent about a fact, and I believe you told
10 them you did not; is that correct?
11 A. To my knowledge I have not.
12 Q. All right. You need an opportunity to think about that
13 statement and correct it?
14 A. Have I lied to a government official about a fact?
15 Q. Yes.
16 A. None to my knowledge.
17 Q. All right. You do recall being interviewed by the
18 Office of Inspector General, don't you?
19 A. I've been interviewed by quite a few people.
20 Q. Now, you were interviewed by a Ms. -- Mr. Perez?
21 A. Rose Perez, uh-huh.
22 Q. Do you see him in the courtroom?
23 A. Yes, I do.
24 Q. And you told him --
25 A. Her.
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1 Q. You told her, I'm sorry, it says mister here. It's
2 Rose, okay. You told him that when --
3 MR. REILLY: I'm sorry, can you tell us what report
4 you're looking at.
5 MR. HERMAN: I'm getting there.
6 MR. HOAG: We would like to know where you're at.
7 MR. HERMAN: OIG 527.
8 MR. HOAG: Date? There's two OIG.
9 THE COURT: Is there an exhibit?
10 MR. HERMAN: Well, it's part of our proof exhibit,
11 Judge. This is really for cross-exam. But it is October 7,
12 2015 interview.
13 MR. WELBY: We think that's Defendants' D.
14 MR. HOAG: Page?
15 MR. HERMAN: Page OIG 527.
16 MR. HOAG: I think it only goes up to 100.
17 MR. HERMAN: No, it's 64 of the actual transcript,
18 but it's marked OIG 527. I'll put it on the screen for
19 everybody, that way we can all look at it.
20 BY MR. HERMAN:
21 Q. Now, when you had this interview with Ms. Perez -- is
22 it Ms. Perez or Ms. Medina?
23 A. I'm sorry, Robert Perez was the DJ with me.
24 Q. Rose Medina, I'm sorry. I see here, okay. So the
25 question was asked, and I'm referring to -- this is

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1 Defendants' Exhibit D. I can start a little earlier if you
2 need me to, but the questions were, "Did anybody else know
3 what was going on?" And the comment is, "I think they could
4 see it, to be honest. I asked him, and he told me, no, no,
5 you keep this private because I'm a supervisor and -- okay.
6 I fell for the okey-doke again."
7 A. I'm not disputing any of that. I'm missing your point.
8 I'm sorry.
9 Q. So you did lie?
10 A. No, I didn't lie.
11 Q. Well --
12 A. How did I lie?
13 Q. Let's go on and read the transcript and see what you
14 said.
15 MR. HOAG: We object to his characterization as a
16 lie, okay.
17 Q. We'll get there. So read with me, make sure I'm
18 reading this correctly, okay. "He -- so, I had to meet with
19 two men one night. And the men said they had this checklist.
20 Okay, do you meet with agents outside. But he told me, he
21 said, you tell them no, because of my title, you can't tell
22 them that. That's our personal business, but they can't
23 know, because I'm a manager, because I'm over the whole. But
24 see, I thought Keith was over the whole department. So I'm
25 thinking by his title he's not supposed to really, you

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1 know --" Ms. Perez says, "So you --" And you say, "-- based
2 on --" Ms. Perez says, "-- so you met with two people who
3 had a checklist, and they were asking you questions about --"
4 "Mm-hmm." "-- you, how you work --" "Mm-hmm." "-- was with
5 him as a CS." "Mm-hmm." "And Cromer instructed you to lie
6 to these individuals?"
7 A. Right.
8 Q. "Well, if you want to put it that way, yes." Did you
9 say that?
10 A. I 100 percent said that. And I'll say that again. I
11 said, if you want to put it that way -- again, I don't know
12 your terminology -- when they asked me these questions he
13 said our personal relationship has nothing to do with stuff
14 that's outside the business --
15 Q. And so you denied it to the agents investigating.
16 A. When they asked me I told them I had -- I don't even
17 remember the questions, but I did tell them that basically
18 per the direction of Keith Cromer who was over Atlanta DEA, I
19 did exactly what he told me to do.
20 Q. So but let's figure this out. What is it exactly that
21 he told you to do? He told you you had to lie about a fact,
22 didn't he?
23 A. Well, I guess you could technically say that. So I
24 recant. I did as you, quote, unquote, as you say, I guess
25 that would be a lie. So I apologize.

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1 Q. So when agents came investigating whether there was a
2 personal, prohibited relationship between you and Mr. Cromer,
3 you lied?
4 A. I guess if you want to say that, yes, sir, I did.
5 Q. All right. And you lied because you cared for
6 Mr. Cromer?
7 A. No, that's speculation. That's not true. I did care
8 for him.
9 Q. Well, tell me then why you --
10 A. Because he asked me not to tell them. And the second
11 time they interviewed me I think they were his friends. And
12 that didn't come up.
13 Q. So if a government agent told you to lie about
14 something, you would go ahead and follow those instructions,
15 is that what you're telling us?
16 A. If a government agent told me to lie at the time I'm
17 trusting them, absolutely I will lie to trust them because
18 they are telling me. You are government officials, you
19 shouldn't be telling me to lie if there's not a reason behind
20 it.
21 Q. If Mr. Hoag told you to lie, would you lie?
22 A. If I know he's telling me to lie for a reason if it's
23 going to benefit or something that he knows he's doing, then
24 I mean --
25 Q. Sure you would.

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1 A. Right. I mean, you do that when you're a confidential
2 informant.
3 Q. Exactly.
4 A. When you go to meet somebody and you say I got
5 five kilograms, you give me this, you lie. Am I
6 correct?
7 Q. So if somebody --
8 A. Am I correct?
9 Q. So if somebody -- I'm not the one answering questions
10 here today. If somebody told you to lie in this hearing, a
11 government agent told you to lie in this hearing, you'd do
12 it?
13 A. Absolutely I would not do it because there's a lot at
14 stake here. There's a lot at stake here.
15 Q. You just told us that if a government agent told you to
16 lie and you felt it was important to do so, you would do it?
17 A. If it's pertaining to business, that's what I would do.
18 This right here is my life we're talking about. This is your
19 job, so I'm not going to lie for anybody.
20 Q. If it's pertaining to interest of the government you
21 would lie?
22 A. If they told me to lie for something that I had to lie
23 for, because I don't have the knowledge from a government
24 standpoint that you guys have. That's what I'm saying. I
25 don't dispute anything what I told Ms. Rosa and I'm going to
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1 stick to that. I don't dispute the relationship with Keith
2 Cromer, and I'm going to stick to that. And I don't dispute
3 the fact that they had a drug transaction on the 5th. And I
4 don't -- none of that is a lie. Now, how you want to date
5 it, word it, time it, that's on you, but that's all the
6 truth. That's the God's truth.
7 Q. So if --
8 THE COURT: I think you made your point, Mr. Herman.
9 MR. HERMAN: I did. Thank you, Judge. I promised
10 you I would get there.
11 THE COURT: You did.
12 MR. HERMAN: That's all I have.
14 MR. HOAG: I just have one or two, Judge, a few.
15 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. HOAG:
17 Q. Now, would it be fair to say that when you talked to
18 the agents, you ID'd the phone numbers; that is, the August
19 the 5th conversation when you talked to the DEA St. Louis
20 agents, you gave them the numbers?
21 A. I did.
22 Q. Yours, theirs, the ones you were talking to, the ones
23 you were in contact with?
24 A. I gave them that as well as everything that transpired
25 on the conversation.
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1 Q. All right. And when Mr. Suarez told you -- did
2 Mr. Suarez, did he or did he not tell you that he was
3 traveling to St. Louis --
4 A. I'm sorry? Repeat that.
5 Q. -- during your conversation?
6 A. Repeat that for me, Dean. I didn't hear what you said.
7 Q. Mr. Suarez, okay, did he tell you he was going to St.
8 Louis?
9 A. Yes, he did.
10 Q. In a conversation?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And when he got to St. Louis, did you have a
13 conversation with him indicating that he was in St. Louis?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did he ask you to come to St. Louis?
16 A. Yes, he did.
17 Q. And the last conversation or at least the August 5th
18 conversation, did he tell you the truck was in St. Louis?
19 A. Yes, he did.
20 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Cromer believed that Meech was involved
21 in this, did he? Flenory?
22 MR. HERMAN: Objection, Your Honor. What Mr. Cromer
23 believed doesn't come in through this witness, first of all.
24 And it's not relevant.
25
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1 BY MR. HOAG:
2 Q. Well, did he tell you he believed that?
3 THE COURT: Let's find out if she has the foundation
4 for it. Let's lay the foundation.
5 Q. Did he ever talk to you about Flenory?
6 A. Other than he didn't like him, you know, things of that
7 nature.
8 Q. He was jealous of him or what?
9 A. He was very jealous of him. Same with Terry White, he
10 was very jealous.
11 Q. And he knew you were close to him?
13 Q. Okay. And he's the one, okay, that gave information to
14 St. Louis about Mr. Flenory?
16 Q. Okay. You don't know what he told them, you weren't
17 there?
18 A. I don't know what he told -- right, I don't know that
19 conversation.
20 Q. And Mr. Flenory, correct me if I'm wrong, was in the
21 BMF?
22 A. Yes, he was.
23 Q. Okay. And there are a lot of guys in the BMF that have
24 been in the drug trade?
25 A. Correct, and a lot that I don't know. Probably

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1 80 percent I don't know those people.
2 Q. But there's a lot of them that have been in the drug
3 trade?
5 Q. Okay. Now, when this disclosure came about and you got
6 outed, for lack of a better word, okay, you went to Gatling's
7 lawyers and said, "Tell them that's not true."
8 A. Right, that wasn't true about Demetrius, that's
9 correct.
10 Q. And you went to Meech and told Meech, "That's not
11 true."
12 A. That's correct, me and Meech had a conversation where I
13 said that that was not true, you are correct.
14 Q. And then you had a bunch of threats that followed this
15 disclosure?
16 A. Many threats.
17 Q. Correct?
18 A. Many.
19 Q. And you told his lawyer, okay?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. About something not being true?
23 Q. Some of that not being true?
25 Q. But you also put together an affidavit and said some of

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1 it is true?
2 A. Some of it is true, that is correct.
3 Q. And you pointed out what you thought was incorrect in
4 the affidavit, correct?
6 Q. All right.
7 A. And all this is the truth.
8 Q. And the information about the drugs and the
9 conversations on August the 5th of 2012 is correct, is that
10 so?
12 MR. HOAG: I don't have any other questions.
14 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
15 THE WITNESS: Thank you. And I appreciate it.
16 MR. HOAG: Your Honor, for the record, can the
17 witness be excused?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 MR. HOAG: She will not be a witness, okay, in the
20 case of the United States versus Dionne Gatling, et al. I
21 just want to make that announcement, okay. Her use is solely
22 for purposes of this hearing, okay. She has no information
23 that's relevant to us, okay.
24 THE COURT: To the underlying case.
25 MR. HOAG: All right. There's a subsequent

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1 information related to drugs, but her information is not
2 relevant to that; that is, the other counts in this case.
3 And she will not be called as a witness.
4 THE COURT: With respect to any pretrial matters
5 that are going to be before me, do any of the defense counsel
6 believe that there would be any basis for attempting to
7 recall this witness? Because I'm going to excuse her for the
8 balance of the case as far as I am concerned. It doesn't
9 sound like she's going to be called at trial. Anybody know
10 of any reason why I can't excuse this witness and have her --
11 MR. WELBY: We haven't heard the testimony of the
12 agents with respect to the conversations with the agents, and
13 she was very unclear about what those conversations were.
14 Beyond that I don't see anything else where she might be
15 recalled.
16 MR. HERMAN: I think Mr. Welby is correct, when we
17 hear the agents, there may be some reason to come back and
18 ask for a comment in the defendants' case. This is still the
19 government's case. So -- but I don't see it taking much
20 later than into tomorrow or even Wednesday, so I would ask
21 that she be retained just in case. We certainly won't call
22 her unless it's necessary. But a situation may arise where
23 she has to be examined in our case about other statements
24 that the agents make.
25 MR. HOAG: Well, we are objecting to that, Your

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1 Honor, okay, on an "if come," we're going to keep her here on
2 an "if come." She's got a job. She told me from the very
3 beginning, okay, that she'll put Monday there, okay. And she
4 has. And she's got a six o'clock flight or a seven o'clock
5 flight that she's going to get on, and she needs to get back
6 to her job. If they decide they want to have it, well, then
7 maybe at some later date, okay, she'll come back when it's
8 more convenient for her. But she has told me from the very
9 beginning, okay, that she has to be back at work on Tuesday.
10 MR. WELBY: I wouldn't object on that condition,
11 Your Honor, that we be allowed to recall her at later date if
12 that's necessary.
13 MR. HERMAN: I would say that's okay, if it turns
14 out to be necessary to go back to her with some questions
15 that are raised by the following witnesses here, we could
16 file a motion with the Court to recall her.
17 THE COURT: Okay. I think that we'll proceed on
18 that basis. I'll let the defendants reserve the right to
19 recall CS1 if necessary. And they are going to demonstrate
20 that there's a need to recall you. But barring that you are
21 excused.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.
23 THE COURT: Thank you.
24 THE WITNESS: Thank you. And court is in recess at
25 this time. But everybody stay put for a second.

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1 MR. WELBY: Can I bring up something just off the
2 record? It's going to be really tight if we're going to open
3 the courtroom back up and do cross on the side bar. I don't
4 know if there's another feasible location where we can do it.
5 THE COURT: You had raised the possibility of
6 earphones. That's something that I just haven't had a chance
7 today to try to chase down.
8 MR. HOAG: My next witness is going to be Jack
9 Harvey. He has told me that he has two sets of clothes,
10 okay, so that if he has to stay over then that's not a
11 problem.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 MR. HOAG: All right.
14 THE COURT: Well, when are we going to start
15 Mr. Harvey?
16 MR. HOAG: Well, we can start him right now, but I
17 think logistically we're going to be talking about some
18 stuff, and there's going to be cross-examination of that
19 stuff involving the OIG.
20 THE COURT: So tomorrow my limitation is I need to
21 break for the day at four.
22 MR. HOAG: Tomorrow?
23 THE COURT: Tomorrow.
24 MR. HOAG: Okay.
25 THE COURT: So I don't care how early we start, but

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1 I need to break at four. So what's your pleasure? I'm
2 perfectly happy starting with Mr. Harvey at 8:30 in the
3 morning if counsel would like to do that.
4 MR. HOAG: 8:30 is fine.
5 MR. WELBY: That's fine.
6 THE COURT: But we can work out some of the
7 logistics with the --
8 MR. WELBY: What I was going to suggest, Your Honor,
9 is maybe when we do the white noise stuff we did it over
10 there instead of over here just because it's --
11 THE COURT: See, I have a mic there and it's bolted
12 in. It's built into the --
13 MR. WELBY: I'm just throwing out an idea.
14 THE COURT: It's not a bad idea, but I don't know --
15 MR. WELBY: Because some of these are going to be
16 lengthy if we're doing cross on the side bar. It's very
17 difficult when you come up and everybody is huddled around.
18 THE COURT: And then the witness will have to be
19 over here is what you're saying.
20 MR. WELBY: Right. And the exhibits and everything
21 else.
22 THE COURT: I don't know how we're going to do it.
23 MR. WELBY: Okay.
24 THE COURT: We'll give it some thought.
25 MR. WELBY: Very well. Thank you, Your Honor.

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1 THE COURT: Anything else with respect to the Franks
2 hearing? I want to take up the issue of Mr. Gibbs, but I
3 don't know that I need everybody here in order for us to do
4 that.
5 MR. REILLY: No, Judge. I just had two loose ends.
6 One relates to Mr. Gatling and the conditions of his
7 confinement. The only thing, I didn't put it on the record
8 at the time, but I'd note for the record that after that
9 threat came in or the posting to Dionne Gatling to the
10 witness' social media account, that she was visibly upset
11 when she was discussing this with the Court at the side bar.
12 She appeared to be upset and somewhat emotional, but she said
13 she wanted to proceed. But for the record I note that. I
14 didn't want to make a record at the time in front of her, but
15 I'm making it now.
16 And the only other loose end I had, I just want to
17 alert the Court, I know you talked about revoking
18 Mr. Gatling's phone privileges for the evening. The marshals
19 were not able to notify the county jail in time before the
20 people who handle that issue had already left. So the only
21 way to revoke his phone privileges is to put him in
22 administrative segregation. And if he's in administrative
23 segregation, he will not have the ability to have a phone
24 conversation with his lawyer. So I'm just bringing that to
25 Ms. Trog's attention and the Court's attention. I just found

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1 out about that about 20 or 30 minutes ago.
2 MS. TROG: Excuse me, Your Honor. Your Honor,
3 because of the late hour I can appreciate logistics.
4 Mr. Gatling has promised that he would not call anyone
5 tonight. And I would suggest that -- and I think he would
6 agree to this, he's promised not to call anyone. And if this
7 Court or the government determine that any phone calls were
8 made, then it can enlarge the punitive time that he would be
9 prohibited from making phone calls as opposed to putting him
10 in admin seg.
11 THE COURT: This is just for overnight, right?
12 MS. TROG: Yes.
13 THE COURT: That would be for overnight. And then
14 are you saying that there's no one at the jail who is in a
15 position to prohibit him from making a phone call?
16 MR. REILLY: Apparently they need to do something to
17 lock his account or block his account. The people who
18 normally do that had already left for the day by the time
19 they were notified by the marshals or the DEA, whoever it was
20 that notified them, so they don't have a way to put that into
21 the system. They said the only way to make it happen would
22 be to place him in administrative segregation.
23 THE COURT: Otherwise all the calls are recorded and
24 we would be able to tell in pretty short order if he received
25 any phone calls or made any phone calls tonight.

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1 MR. REILLY: Sure. There's always a possibility
2 that he uses somebody else's PIN number, that's always a
3 concern. And administrative segregation is one way to
4 prevent that. But I'd say that that's a fair statement,
5 Judge.
6 THE COURT: I don't know that I think administrative
7 segregation is warranted overnight. I am going to caution
8 Mr. Gatling that should he break his promise, he probably
9 will find himself in administrative segregation not just for
10 the duration of this hearing but for the duration of the
11 case. Because that would demonstrate to me a total disregard
12 for the Court's order.
13 So we'll get the monitoring technology in place as
14 early as possible tomorrow, and take Mr. Gatling at his word
15 that he will adhere to my order, which is that he is not to
16 make any telephone calls or receive any telephone calls for
17 the duration of this hearing.
18 MS. TROG: And we would include no telephone calls
19 at all even to me. He would just blankly be restricted from
20 making any phone calls, and I think he understands that
21 whether it's to me. So it wouldn't be under any aura that it
22 was a phone call to me but it was being made to somebody
23 else, et cetera.
24 THE COURT: And that's for tonight.

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1 THE COURT: Until we get the locking mechanism in
2 place tomorrow morning. Okay. I mean, my order doesn't
3 change. My order is my order.
5 THE COURT: And as for all of the other defendants
6 who are -- the two -- Mr. Timothy Rush and Andre Rush, you're
7 both in custody, the admonishment is the same for everyone.
8 I thought it was pretty clear. I didn't make this big record
9 at the start of the hearing and make a big point of excusing
10 the public and the media as an act in futility. I started
11 out this hearing by saying that this witness, this first
12 witness was a confidential source whose identity was not
13 public and should not be public, even if it did happen to
14 become public otherwise.
15 So any discussion of the identity of the witness,
16 the contents of her testimony today would be a violation of
17 my order and will result in severe sanctions. It could be
18 administrative segregation, it could be something more than
19 that, in addition to whatever potential charges the
20 government might choose to pursue relative to obstruction of
21 justice or witness tampering or anything of that sort. So
22 this is serious business and we're going to treat it that
23 way.
24 I would like to hear from the CSO on Mr. Gibbs
25 because I am very gravely concerned that just shortly after

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1 learning that Mr. Gibbs allegedly went out in the hall and
2 talked about the identity of the witness, the witness comes
3 in here and says that she's gotten a social media posting
4 that shook her up. She was visually shaken by that. I'm
5 very concerned about that.
6 I don't think we need to keep all of the
7 codefendants here for that. This part of the Franks hearing
8 is in recess. We're adjourned until tomorrow.
9 And now we're going to talk about the government's
10 oral motion to revoke Mr. Gibbs' bond. I don't know what you
11 guys want to do. If you want to take them.
12 We'll take up the bond revocation matter at 4:30, so
13 just give me about eight minutes. Okay. I'll be right back.
14 And that will give everybody a chance to clear out.
16 (The following proceedings were held in open court
17 with Mr. Gibbs, Mr. Welby, Mr. Reilly, and Mr. Hoag present:)
18 THE COURT: Would you come up, Mr. Gibbs and
19 Mr. Welby. We're back on the record in United States versus
20 Dionne Gatling. The purpose of this part of the proceeding
21 is to address the government's oral motion to revoke the bond
22 of Defendant Lorenzo Gibbs. I did want to -- during the
23 break I talked to the pretrial services officer who has been
24 supervising Mr. Gibbs, and he did report, not surprisingly,
25 that Mr. Gibbs has not been a problem in the time that he's
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1 been on bond. I know that I have myself reviewed and granted
2 multiple motions filed on behalf of Mr. Gibbs to travel
3 without objection from the government.
4 And so, I mean, I think there's merit to what
5 Mr. Welby said earlier about Mr. Gibbs being kind of a model
6 pretrial person on bond.
7 But, however, as I indicated during the hearing, I
8 am -- I share the government's concern over the safety of
9 CS1. I am very concerned if there is any evidence that
10 Mr. Gibbs went out and disclosed or discussed the name of the
11 witness or any other confidential source being discussed in
12 this proceeding.
13 And what we've got is somebody else in the courtroom
14 who was not here earlier.
15 MR. REILLY: That's the special agent is back in,
16 Judge, since the CS1 -- this is Agent Brett Johnson.
17 THE COURT: Oh, of course, the proceeding is open
18 again. That's right.
19 MR. REILLY: I assumed we were back with an open
20 record.
21 THE COURT: We are back with an open court. Thank
22 you for reminding me. I just saw a new face I didn't
23 recognize.
24 So anyone -- be that as it may, did you have any
25 announcement that you wanted to make at this point,

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1 Mr. Welby?
2 MR. WELBY: Your Honor, I've had a chance to talk to
3 Mr. Gibbs. He has repeatedly assured me that not only did he
4 not disclose the names, but if you asked him right now, he
5 probably couldn't tell you the names of CS#1 and CS#2. In
6 fact, this morning when he came to court he couldn't remember
7 what your name was, so he had to call me and find out which
8 courtroom to go to.
9 So I believe he's being honest. If you -- you don't
10 see it, but when you walk out of the courtroom, there are
11 people lining the windows. They are sitting in all the
12 seats. They are all the way across the hall and wrapped
13 around. And people start firing questions as soon as you
14 walk out. And I don't believe that he intentionally
15 disclosed the names of anybody. I believe that it made sense
16 that the witness is the first gal or something like that,
17 whatever, I can't remember exactly what it was that was said.
18 But I think that's -- it's an entirely plausible explanation
19 to the misunderstanding that we have right here.
20 But I am 100 percent confident that Mr. Gibbs is not
21 going to do anything to harm anyone. There is no evidence
22 that he's involved in any of these murders, any of the
23 retaliation against witnesses, any of the threats against
24 CS#1 in the past. And he has been on bond with that
25 information for a very long period of time. So I just think

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1 we're killing a fly with a sledge hammer here. If there's
2 any uncertainty whatsoever, that matter has been addressed
3 and detention is not warranted in order to protect the public
4 or assure his appearance.
5 THE COURT: Mr. Reilly.
6 MR. REILLY: Judge, I'd just as soon present the
7 evidence and let the Court make a decision. And one of the
8 concerns we'd have in this case, Judge, and Mr. Gibbs'
9 situation is a little different -- well, it's a lot different
10 than the other defendants because he doesn't have the
11 criminal histories that they do. And he's not charged with
12 offenses that are punishable by life.
13 Having said that, he still looks at a significant
14 mandatory minimum prison sentence. And one of our concerns
15 is how do you deter people who are looking at life sentences
16 anyway? How concerned are they about a protective order when
17 Dionne Gatling goes back and dictates a post right after a
18 hearing and violates the protective order? I'm just --
19 THE COURT: Is there any evidence that Mr. Gibbs has
20 been communicating with any of his codefendants or --
21 MR. REILLY: He is their conspirator. He's indicted
22 in a conspiracy with them.
23 THE COURT: I understand.
24 MR. REILLY: And I'd just as soon put the evidence
25 on. And then the other concern is -- I'll do it by proffer.

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1 MR. HOAG: Rather than put the evidence on.
2 THE COURT: Who is the CSO?
3 MR. REILLY: It's CSO Larry Casey, Judge. So I'm
4 happy to just make a proffer.
5 THE COURT: Why don't you.
6 MR. REILLY: But I do feel compelled to make a
7 record --
8 THE COURT: I understand.
9 MR. REILLY: -- because in addition to this we have
10 the events with Mr. Gatling after the last hearing, we have
11 this report that was reported to us as soon as we got back or
12 right at the lunch break, and then the CS gets a posting on
13 social media with the name Dionne L. Gatling.
14 There was a reason we moved to close this
15 proceeding. And all the things we were concerned just
16 continue to keep happening. So I will make a record. If I
17 were to call Mr. Casey, I'd expect that he'd testify that he
18 has previous law enforcement experience. He had over 25
19 years with the City police department. He held various
20 assignments. He was here as part of the detail in this case
21 with the CSOs. He was aware that there was extra security in
22 this case. He was also present when he heard the Court issue
23 an order earlier today that certain things weren't to be
24 discussed, including the names of certain individuals
25 involved in the case. He was here when he heard the Court

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1 issue that order.
2 He observed Mr. Gibbs here in the proceedings. At
3 the breaktime at lunch he went out to approach other CSOs.
4 And when he exited he observed Mr. Gibbs approach people who
5 were previously in court, one was a man wearing a white
6 shirt, the other was a woman wearing a blue shirt or sweater.
7 And he heard statements to the effect that it's the name of
8 CS1 and then the name of CS2.
9 And he believed that contact was in contravention of
10 the order that he heard the Court issue. And then he brought
11 it to our attention immediately. That would be what I would
12 expect the evidence would be, Your Honor.
13 And just based on the way it was brought to our
14 attention and the manner it was brought to our attention, I
15 believe that was unequivocal. Thank you.
16 MR. WELBY: Your Honor, I recall the phrase that
17 Mr. Gibbs told me that he said he said, it was "the main gal"
18 that was testifying. I just think when I walked -- when we
19 walked down the hall two minutes ago, you are just swarmed
20 with people. People are asking questions: "Are they still
21 testifying?" "Who is going on?" You know, there's a lot of
22 questions being fired around, and I don't think that
23 Mr. Gibbs intentionally violated your protective order. And
24 I don't think that there is any doubt in my mind that he
25 would in the future.

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1 THE COURT: You believe that Mr. Casey misheard
2 something?
3 MR. WELBY: I think it's entirely possible that if
4 Mr. Casey was in the Court, if he heard the witness testify,
5 he heard the witness' name, he heard the witness accidentally
6 identity CS2 who before today we had no idea what CS2's name
7 was. Those names would be in his mind. There is a brief
8 conversation with a crowd of people asking questions. I
9 think it's entirely possible that there was a
10 misunderstanding. I'm not questioning his integrity at all,
11 I just think there's a lot of chaos out in that hallway that
12 inside the confines of a courtroom we're not seeing. And I
13 think it's entirely possible there was a misunderstanding,
14 and certainly not an intentional breach of this Court's
15 order.
16 THE COURT: I don't believe that I've heard enough
17 to satisfy me that revoking Mr. Gibbs' bond is warranted
18 under these circumstances. What I am thinking about is the
19 alternative request for relief that the government asked for,
20 which is to subject Mr. Gibbs to location monitoring. But
21 I'm assuming Mr. Gibbs will be back tomorrow for the hearing
22 at 8:30 in the morning?
23 MR. WELBY: Of course.
24 THE COURT: So I will -- I will deny the request to
25 the extent that the government has asked that his bond be
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1 revoked, but I will take under submission until tomorrow the
2 request for the alternative relief of location monitoring. I
3 want to think about it. I think I have all the information I
4 need to decide, I just want to reflect on it for a moment.
6 MR. REILLY: Thank you.
7 MR. HOAG: Thank you.
8 THE COURT: I'll see you all tomorrow morning.
9 MR. HOAG: All right. We'll see in the morning.
11 (Court in recess at 4:46 p.m.)
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2 I, Susan R. Moran, Registered Merit Reporter, in
3 and for the United States District Court for the Eastern
4 District of Missouri, do hereby certify that I was present
5 at and reported in machine shorthand the proceedings in the
6 above-mentioned court; and that the foregoing transcript is
7 a true, correct, and complete transcript of my stenographic
8 notes.
9 I further certify that I am not attorney for, nor
10 employed by, nor related to any of the parties or attorneys
11 in this action, nor financially interested in the action.
12 I further certify that this transcript contains
13 pages 1 - 271 and that this reporter takes no responsibility
14 for missing or damaged pages of this transcript when same
15 transcript is copied by any party other than this reporter.
16 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand
17 at St. Louis, Missouri, this 31st day of October, 2016.
18
19 ______________________________
/s/ Susan R. Moran
20 Registered Merit Reporter
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Case: 4:14-cr-00088-RWS Doc. #: 406 Filed: 12/13/16 Page:-1 Vol.

REDACTED of 271 1PageID

1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

3 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )

10 TRANSCRIPT OF FRANKS HEARING

11 BEFORE THE HONORABLE SHIRLEY P. MENSAH

1 For Defendant Mr. Robert Herman

9 REPORTED BY: SUSAN R. MORAN, RMR, FCRR

3 PREHEARING CONFERENCE IN CHAMBERS..................4

1 (The following proceedings were held in chambers on

2 October 17, 2016 at 8:43 a.m.:)

3 THE COURT: Let's go on the record. This is United

4 States versus Dionne Gatling, et al. The case number is

5 4:14-CR-88 RWS. We'll call this a prehearing conference with

6 counsel only in chambers.

7 Counsel, if you would announce your presence for the

9 MR. HOAG: Dean Hoag and Mike Reilly for the

11 MR. WELBY: Steve Welby for Lorenzo Gibbs.

12 MS. TROG: JoAnn Trog for Dionne Gatling.

13 MR. HERMAN: Bob Herman for Andre Rush.

14 MR. HUMPHREY: Preston Humphrey for Timothy Rush.

15 THE COURT: I don't know if there are prehearing

16 matters that counsel would like to address, but I have a

17 couple short things on my list I would like to talk about.

18 And the first order of business, I spent quite a bit of time

20 the two telephone conferences that we had. And I agree that

21 some clarification is in order with respect to the use of

22 information subject to the protective order during the course

24 I have basically drafted an order that I'd like to

25 order this morning, but I wanted to do that only after

1 getting input from counsel.

2 I do believe that in order to properly balance the

3 defendants' constitutional rights to a public hearing and

4 balance the interest that we all sought to protect and that I

5 thought should be protected by entering the protective order,

6 I think this clarification is necessary.

7 So, first, I believe that the parties should be able

8 to without violating the protective order disclose the

9 following during the course of the hearing:

10 First, the fact that DEA agents from Atlanta,

11 Georgia who were involved in the investigation of Dionne

12 Gatling were or are being investigated by the DEA Office of

13 Professional Responsibility for professional violations of

14 DEA standards of conduct.

15 Second, that some of the agents being investigated

16 by OPR are also the subjects of a criminal investigation by

17 the Department of Justice, Office of Inspector General into

18 possible violations of the law including 18 U.S.C. 1001

19 involving false statements, and 641 involving theft of

21 And, finally, the parties may disclose the current

22 status of the investigation. An example, whether the

23 investigations are ongoing versus being held in abeyance,

24 whether any charges have been brought against anyone.

25 Otherwise the parties will be prohibited from publicly

1 disclosing information that's otherwise protected under the

2 protective order including specifically the identities of the

3 individual agents who are or were the targets of either the

4 OPR or OIG investigation, the specific evidence collected by

5 investigators as part of the OPR or OIG investigations,