Giorgio Armani’s

Issue No. 5 – £7 / €10 / $18

Staying Power
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Table of contents

38 Staying power. Giorgio Armani.

By Giampietro Baudo. Photographs by Juergen Teller.

88 A letter from... Beijing: The dinner of discontent.

By Hung Huang. Illustration by François Berthoud.

90 A letter from... London: The visually super literate.

By David Owen. Illustration by François Berthoud.

92 A letter from... Paris: Luxury quantity.

By Mesh Chhibber. Illustration by François Berthoud.

94 Face à face. Mirror Image.

By Dick Page.

96 Archive. Katy England.

By Jerry Stafford. Photographs by Willy Vanderperre. Styling by Katy England.

122 Chronicles of colour. Victoire de Castellane.

By Eric Troncy. Portrait by Juergen Teller. Photographs by Antoine Seiter.

136 The legendary... Valentino.

By Hans Ulrich Obrist. Photographs by Zoë Ghertner. Styling by Camille Bidault-Waddington.

156 In the words of... Cathy Horyn.

By Jonathan Wingfield. Photographs by Juergen Teller.

192 Retrospective. Roman Cieslewicz.

By Thomas Lenthal. Images by Roman Cieslewicz.

228 Behind the scenes. Hermès.

By Thomas Lenthal. Photographs by Antoine Seiter.

242 The edit. Stefano Pilati.

By Jonathan Wingfield. Photographs by Pieter Hugo.

254 The colour questionnaire. Haider Ackermann.

By Loïc Prigent.

30
Contributors

Camille Bidault-Waddington is French artist and the Artistic Director of journalist and fashion consultant. Jer-
with some English and Spanish. She Shiseido. Dick doesn’t have a favour- ry’s favourite colours are the iridescent
describes herself as “a fashion mid- ite colour but is drawn to colours like jewel tones produced by the microstruc-
wife” as well as an art director, pho- Venetian Rose or ashes of roses. He tures of humming birds’ feathers, which
tographer and fashion editor. Camille loves brown and grey-based pink shades he finds both exotic and erotic.
doesn’t have a favourite colour, but but doesn’t know why.
she really doesn’t like yellowy-aniseed Katy England is from Cheshire, Eng-
green. Hans Ulrich Obrist is from Zurich, land. She is a fashion stylist and consult-
Switzerland. He is the Co-Director of ant. Katy’s favourite colour is green.
Cathy Horyn is from Coshocton, Ohio. The Serpentine Galleries in London.
She is a journalist. Cathy’s favourite col- Hans’ favourite colour is red. Mesh Chhibber is from London. He
our is blue because it’s calm, cool and is the co-founder of Peau de Chagrin.
cheerful. Hung Huang is very confused about Mesh’s favourite colour is black because
where she is from. She wishes she was he finds it comforting.
David Owen is from 2c Billet Avenue, from Costa Rica but instead was born
Suburbia where he grew up on Chan- in China. She carries a US passport and Pieter Hugo is from Cape Town. He is
nel 4 and books. He runs IDEA with lives in Beijing. She does a lot of things an image merchant. Pieter’s favourite
his partner Angela Hill where togeth- but none of them are what she wants to colour is the white light of late-night
er they discover, sell and publish books. do – which is nothing. According to her television.
David used to have a Saab 900 that was fortune-teller, Huang’s favourite colour
metallic silver – this is his favourite col- should be blue. Willy Vanderperre has lived in Menen
our and also his favourite car. and Antwerp in Belgium, and would at
Jerry Stafford is from Bromley, in some point like to live in Los Angeles.
Dick Page is from the west of England, the south of England. He is the Crea- Willy’s favourite colour is white – for
not far from Bristol. He is a make-up tive Director at Premiere Heure, and a him, it is all the colours combined.

32
Masthead
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Editorial Board
Alexia Niedzielski
Elizabeth von Guttman
Jonathan Wingfield
Thomas Lenthal

Art Director Associate Editor

Mathieu Perroud Rana Toofanian

Editor-at-Large Coordination
Natasha Goldenberg Veronica Latourrette

Contributing Editor Layout

Xerxes Cook Antoine Seiter

Contributing Writers
Giampietro Baudo, Mesh Chhibber, Hung Huang,
Hans Ulrich Obrist, David Owen, Loïc Prigent, Jerry Stafford.

Contributing Creatives
François Berthoud, Camille Bidault-Waddington, Katy England, Dick Page.

Contributing Photographers
Zoë Ghertner, Pieter Hugo, Antoine Seiter, Juergen Teller, Willy Vanderperre.

Special Thanks to:

Billy Albores, Anoushka Borghesi, James Campbell, Rebecca Catt,
Karen Clarkson, Lindsey Cooper, Marie Déhé, Floriane Desperier, Mimi Fraser,
Isabella Capece Galeota, Audrey Houssin, Guillaume Hery, Joy Hart,
Natalie Hand, Sven Kauffmann, Sylvia Farago, Justinian Kfoury, Alexandre Lamare,
David Mallet, Salvo Nicosia, Francesca Pacciani, Karla Otto, Matthew Owyang,
Jean Pigozzi, Thomas Prees, Pierre Rougier, Georg Ruffles, HRH Reema Al-Saud,
Christoper Schönefeld, Pierre Seiter, Big Sky, Olivia Gideon-Thomson, Anya Yiapanis, Karin Xiao.

Publisher
Tartan Publishing Ltd

System
Tartan Publishing Ltd, 29-31 Brewery Road,
London, N7 9QH, United Kingdom, +44 (0)20 7619 6617.

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Colour reproduction and print supervision by LBH labs. © 2015 Reproduction is strictly prohibited For more information,
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in Aversa, Italy. ISSN No.: 2052-0808 or visit www.system-magazine.com

34
Editors’ letter

Throughout the 1980s and ‘90s we saw the rise of ‘indie’. Indie music,
indie flicks, indie magazines, indie fashion. While the word was first
associated with the UK’s alternative music chart – for records released
on independent as opposed to major record labels – of course, it gradually
emerged as a broader badge of honour, loosely implying that independence
was for artsy outsiders; and ultimately became a generic term employed to
describe pretty much anything that wished to express more soulful values.

And along the way, indie hijacked independent.

But why should independent mean small? Why does willfully reigning
in one’s ambitions mean you’re more soulful? Surely independent means
being self-sufficient, individualistic, headstrong… (we know it does because
we’ve just looked it up in the dictionary).

There’s certainly nothing indie about Giorgio Armani’s independence.

Our 80-year-old cover star epitomises the idea that independence can
mean power. And when you sit down with Mr Armani (and get Juergen
Teller to snoop around his personal residence) you soon understand that,
besides the obvious trappings of owning his 40-year-old global empire
outright, what fuels him is a stubborn refusal to dilute his ideas or be
swayed by influence.

The same could be said for Cathy Horyn, probably fashion’s most-feared
– and respected – critic, and the subject of this issue’s long-form interview.
(It turns out that Cathy’s father was himself a newspaper reporter, who
made a living covering public executions in Ohio penitentiaries. Now we
wouldn’t want to presume there’s a link, but…)

And then there’s Hermès, the original independent luxury house. We took
a look inside their ‘colour kitchen’, the psychedelic service that transforms
their silk carrés into a global money-making machine (reportedly one sold
every 25 seconds).

Indie never felt so big.

36
Staying Power Giorgio Armani

‘I had to
take things
into my
own hands.’
There’s nothing ‘indie’ about
Giorgio Armani’s independence.

By Giampietro Baudo
Photographs by Juergen Teller

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Staying Power Giorgio Armani

Over the course of 40 years in an indus- personal residence, just moments away Do you ever take time off?
try of change and reinvention, Giorgio from the company’s headquarters sit- I only allow myself short holidays in
Armani has marched to the steady beat uated on via Borgonuovo in the Brera August and December – to recuperate.
of his own drum. Describing the essence district of Milan. This trust is formed
of what he does as a search for “linear between his brand and its audience, one Do you still enjoy the punishing work
and ostentatious elegance” applied that has been cultivated by the unwa- rate you’ve given yourself, after so
across an empire that spans ready-to- vering desire and discipline of its found- many years?
wear, couture, numerous diffusion and er and CEO. In the following conversa- All I can say is this: when I know I have
cosmetics lines, furniture, hotels and tion, Mr Armani takes a rare moment a work appointment the following day
even food – it’s an aesthetic fidelity that to sit down and discuss risk and regrets, — to visit one of our workshops or atel-
turns over €2 billion for the company what will happen to the company iers — I honestly can’t sleep the night
each year. And crucially, it’s a company beyond his lifetime, and those moments before. I’m constantly getting up to
that is neither publicly traded, nor part when it gets lonely at the top. check my alarm clock. And when it
of an ever-expanding international finally goes off in the morning, I’m
luxury conglomerate – instead, Giorgio Mr Armani, after 40 years of work, are happy. I just love being in contact with
Armani S.p.A. remains entirely in the you happy today? the people who are actually working
hands of the man whose name adorns Yes, I have to say that I am just as hap- to make the clothes; I enjoy the man-
its labels; a man with no formal business py today as when I began 40 years ago… ual nature of the work and being able
training, whose first foray into fashion, to spend time in the workshop. Even
following a stint in the army in the early So how do you manage to cope with today, after 40 years, my enjoyment is
1960s, was as a window dresser. what must be an extraordinary work- like that of a child.

‘When I know I’m visiting our ateliers the following

day, I honestly can’t sleep from excitement.
I’m constantly getting up to check my alarm clock.’
It was in 1980 that the name Arm- load? And how have you structured the Was creating a company like the one
ani stamped itself on the world. Hav- company? you have now a childhood ambition?
ing dressed a young Richard Gere in More than 9,500 people work for the What do you think triggered the desire
Paul Schrader’s American Gigolo – in group throughout the world. And obvi- to do this?
which he designed a “jacket to be as flu- ously, the management of a business so Absolutely not, the idea came much
id as a cardigan; elegant, but loose”; an extensive and complex requires com- later. I was a timid child, not at all out-
unstructuring of the male uniform that plete and constant attention. So, my going. Part of that was down to the
changed both the way men and wom- alarm clock goes off every day at seven dominating presence of my brother, a
en across the world dressed – the big a.m. and, after physical exercise and a person with great charisma and extraor-
screen’s global resonance gave rise to healthy breakfast, I arrive at my office dinary beauty; and I certainly felt a bit
ensuing Armani-mania, from which the more or less at nine. I spend my day at of a latent rivalry between us… As I
80-year-old Italian icon has amassed the company’s various headquarters grew up I didn’t know what my career
an estimated personal fortune of €7.8 and offices, giving equal attention to would be for years and years; perhaps
billion. the management of the business as to its I wasn’t fully aware of what was going
Creativity and commerce: both are creative elements — I think of myself as on around me. [Thinks out loud] What
under Giorgio Armani’s control – but a ‘designer-businessman’. Between the did I want to be as a child? I didn’t think
despite the self-proclaimed designer- seasonal fashion shows in Milan and of becoming a designer… No, I main-
businessman’s decades of experience Paris, and the numerous other events ly wanted to become a doctor, but per-
and success, he still has doubts the night connected with the fashion house, the haps also a writer or traveller. I love this
before a show. It’s an issue of “trust”, weeks pass by pretty quickly as I con- world and the idea of being able to go
he tells System from the comfort of his stantly follow this schedule. out and explore it certainly appealed

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Staying Power Giorgio Armani

to me – even though that’s never been giving in to the temptations of outside experiencing on the very first day of the
enough for me. investment? company, and I’m working like a mani-
The decision to keep complete control ac to ensure their success.
How have you managed to create and of my business – of my independence
oversee such a successful fashion com- – for me was, and is, both quite natu- You mentioned consistency before.
pany — and maintain that for 40 year, ral and quite necessary. I am a design- What’s been the one constant in the 40
despite having no formal business er-businessman, and my vision of the years of your company?
training whatsoever? business is integral to my way of work- If I look back, I have to say that there
I can only talk for myself, but I’d have ing in the design sector. I must admit has only ever been one consistent
to say that learning on the job is often that maintaining my independence thread running through my life: I’ve
more effective than what any tradition- is not easy today, and I am constantly never let even the smallest detail pass by
al training can offer you. I learnt about courted with ever-increasing insistence. without checking it. I’ve never ever said,
business day-by-day – while it was hap- Staying independent requires a tremen- ‘Who cares?’ even if it was only some-
pening. So just going to work every day dous amount of effort, as I find myself thing that appeared to be insignificant.
was my training college; and I’m so having to deal on a daily basis with com-
lucky to have had it like that. petitors who are true titans of the busi- Let’s talk about how you took the Arm-
ness world. The temptation to give in is ani brand to the world. What motivat-
Did you have a specific business model always there, but then I think I’d end up ed you, and how did you manage this?
in mind when you started your career? losing control — and that I’d no longer The expansion of my business, across
I have always had a strong, burning be able to create anything how I really all the different areas, has been driven
desire to realise my full potential – fash- want it — and so I resist. by my desire to produce not just fash-

‘I have no formula to pass on to others because

I didn’t follow a formula myself. I’ve done everything
my own way and stubbornly continue to do so.’
ion only came into the picture once I’d Do you still have dreams, or regrets, ion, but an all-encompassing Armani
abandoned the idea of becoming a doc- after 40 years of your business? style. I wanted my aesthetic vision to
tor. I immediately understood that this I look to the future in different ways be applied not only to clothing, but to
was the field in which I’d be able to ful- now. 40 years is a long time to be in the many other contexts. From a business
ly express my vision. Once I’d realised fashion world — a long, long time — perspective, this made it possible to
that, everything happened in a natural especially the way I have lived them. establish diverse profit flows, all stem-
sequence of events. I have no formula to I’m still always thinking of the future; ming from the value and identity of the
pass on to others because I didn’t follow maybe it’s a future on the decline as Armani brand, and that would never
a formula myself, nor was I inspired by opposed to a healthy future, but that’s have been achieved had we operated in
any other existing business model. I’ve the way life goes. And it’s a life that’s clothing alone.
always done everything my own way dealt me a great hand. I feel today like
and continue to do so with a stubborn- I did ten, even 30 years ago: confront- But was there a specific moment, or
ness that means even now I keep hold ing the same issues I’ve always had event, which lit the fuse for the brand
of my independence – it’s the most pre- about establishing my brand across the to expand internationally?
cious thing of all. If I had to describe world, and I still experience the same I think it was the decision to contrib-
my career using just a few words, I doubts the night before a fashion show ute to creating the costumes for Amer-
would say passion, risk, tenacity and that I’ve always had. But the excitement ican Gigolo. It seemed a perfectly nat-
consistency. never leaves; right now I’m excited by ural move for me at the time, because
the great Expo20151 event in Milan, and I’d always had an interest and passion
Am I right in saying that it’s this risk by the opening of my museum – they’re for cinema. It was a decision motivated
and tenacity that’s prevented you from no different from the challenges I was not by business strategy – even though

42 43
Staying Power Giorgio Armani

it translated into a phenomenal success this with a collection, 10 percent of cus- realised immediately that in order to
– but through the immaterial world of tomers will praise that change to the grow the business as I wanted, I had to
cinema. And it was thanks to cinema skies, while the other 90 percent are maintain my independence — and to
that my style entered the public con- confused. It’s the 90 percent that terri- achieve that, I had to take things into
sciousness and captured people’s imagi- fy me, and I feel the whole responsibil- my own hands, including from an eco-
nation. I could never have imagined that ity of estranging such a large number nomic perspective. It was a natural
costumes in a film would have led to the of people who are so important for the development, albeit a highly demand-
growth of my business, but that’s just stability of my Group – those custom- ing one.
how it worked out. ers who want something from us which,
at first glance, is immediately recognis- Does it ever feel lonely at the top?
It led to Armani becoming a universal able as Armani. When I travel, I look A bit, yes. Success like mine requires
style reference – everyone in the world around at what my colleagues in the total commitment, so much so that it
soon knew what the Armani aesthetic fashion industry are doing and I see the takes up my entire life. For the most
was all about. How have you managed most beautiful things; things that make part, I’ve had to give up affection and
to stay true to the codes and values of me realise that the world has changed time for the sake of work. In reality
your house over the years, as the busi- and is continuing to change. I’m not though, I have no regrets.
ness has evolved? talking about those designers who are
By staying on a consistent path, dictat- simply puppets in thrall to a particular If you had to draw up a balance sheet,
ed by a never-ending search for new yet kind of trendiness, but those design- what have you missed the most over the
harmonious lines, innovative materi- ers who have a healthy alter-ego, capa- past 40 years?
als, sophistication and quality. My idea ble of making the sums add up; so that Giving attention to the people around

‘10 percent of customers would praise me if

I revolutionized my style; the other 90 percent would
be left confused. It’s the 90 percent that terrify me.’
of style and taste is no different from it’s then possible to convert a beautiful me. I have always loved my work dearly,
when I started out; I’ve always sought object into something successful. which in turn has led me to committing
to express a deep appreciation for all to even more work, and with the most
that is simple and linear. Times have On precisely that point, many success- blurred of lines between my private life
obviously changed since 1975: men ful fashion brands have been the fruit and my business. Once you are a busi-
and women have gradually freed them- of two people working in a great cre- nessman, you never stop being one. If
selves from the protocols and rigid atti- ative and business synergy: such as I’m honest, I must admit that I’d have
tudes of the past, and found different Miuccia Prada and Patrizio Bertelli, liked to have had a bit more quality
ways to express their own personalities. Yves Saint Laurent and Pierre Bergé, time with the people around me; to have
I’ve always wanted to keep up with the Tom Ford and Domenico De Sole – yet enjoyed myself in moments of healthy
times, but without distorting the essen- you are in command on your own… and simple pleasures. I don’t like trans-
tial characteristics of my philosophy I don’t consider the artistic component gressive behaviour of any kind; I con-
and aesthetics. to be in conflict with the business com- sider infidelity to be too precarious,
ponent. I define myself as a designer- volatile and dangerous. My work has
But wouldn’t you like to write a new businessman, and my vision of the busi- had an important role in my life, it has
chapter of your aesthetics today, one ness is integral to my way of working been defined by it. It hasn’t allowed
completely different from that of the with fashion. When we started the busi- me breaks, but it has nonetheless giv-
past? ness there was a divided model: Armani en me great success. Ultimately, when
Yes, I’d be really happy to: sometimes on the creative side, Sergio Galeotti2 on I’m brought the bill, I can see my life
I think about changing, and about rev- the business side. Sergio’s early death as having been punctuated by the occa-
olutionising my style. If I were to do forced me to revaluate everything. I sional difficult moment, but these have

44 45
Staying Power Giorgio Armani

been set off against the regularity of the it comes down to is that stress is a chal- six months; it’s futile. I love the idea of
wonderful ones. lenge; it only becomes negative when having succeeded in making my own
you lose control of the situation or when aesthetic outlook unforgettable.
How do you manage to delegate while you’ve been unaware of serious prob-
maintaining control over your creative lems. I do my best to avoid both these What are you most proud of in your
and business worlds? kinds of situations. career?
Surrounding myself with the right kind There are obviously the times where
of people in whom I can place the great- What do you know about the business I have been given recognition; such as
est trust. At the same time though, I that you didn’t 40 years ago? the cover of Time magazine in 1982
am still the one who makes the final I understood from the start that com- and, more recently, the Giorgio Armani
decisions. munication is important, but the true Day3 in New York in 2013. This served
basis for success is the authenticity of as confirmation that my work has gone
Doesn’t it become a bit of an obsession the product. By product I mean a jack- in the right direction, and that I have
managing a business like yours? et or pair of jeans just as much as the genuinely touched peoples’ lives. How-
I wouldn’t call it an obsession although environment or the service found in my ever, the thing I am most proud of is the
it is certainly a constant and total com- hotels. fact that over 40 years I have been able
mitment. I have to say, it is very rare for to create the complete Armani life-
me to lose sleep or wake up in the mid- What is the greatest risk you’ve faced style, which mirrors my ideas and can
dle of the night because of work. When in growing your business? be applied to many sectors beyond the
it happens, it’s only for the most serious Maintaining my independence is a con- fashion world; such as interior design
of reasons. stant risk but it’s something I’ll never and hotels. Over all these years I’ve

‘Italian brands being absorbed by French luxury

groups has impoverished our industrial fabric.
Each time it happens, a piece of Italy goes with it.’
And you never wake in the middle of give up. I’m proud to have believed in tried to create atmospheres, going
the night with an idea you have to write it so strongly and to have done every- beyond simply clothing: atmospheres
down there and then? thing to defend my uniqueness; I’m to surround people, to bring them into
No. If inspiration is deep enough it is proud of the fact I’ve always believed in my aesthetic universe, the universe that
well-rooted, and it’s still there when the my approach to fashion, and been faith- occupies my mind.
morning alarm goes off. I sleep only as ful to that idea.
much as is absolutely necessary, but it is What are your general thoughts on the
restorative sleep. As I said before, I’m How important are the values of con- fashion industry today?
always awake by seven. I’ve always got sistency and fidelity to you? Nowadays finance dominates the fash-
up early – I used to think it was out of They are of fundamental importance ion industry, and the monopoly of large
duty, but I’ve discovered it is actually whether one is talking of love or work… companies is a clear indication of this.
a great pleasure because it follows the The things I care for passionately are Many historic brands have changed
natural rhythm of the day. long-lasting and deep-rooted: consist- hands and the reasons are different eve-
ency has been a thread throughout my ry time: generational hand-downs, con-
Have you ever had moments when life. This is true both in business and on flicts between heirs, divergence of strat-
you have been under great pressure or a creative level: the marriages with my egies; all of this has led to the absorption
stress? And how do you deal with this? production partners and managers are of significant brands – Italian above all
I’m responsible for a big business so I’m always long-standing, and it’s also true – into French luxury companies. While
only too aware of what stress is. Nor- at the creative level. I hate this idea cur- these companies have given the brands
mally though, I find it a positive experi- rently popular in some areas of fashion an international dimension, they’ve
ence, something that stimulates. What where everything has to change every also impoverished our industrial fabric.

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Staying Power Giorgio Armani

Each time this happens, a piece of our Is success measured purely in terms of business-minded? And then, converse-
country goes with it. Personally, I will size and turnover – or are there other, ly, those working in the business side of
never betray the relationship of trust I perhaps intangible, values? the industry must be more sensitive to
have with my clientele; because that is No, success is not purely defined by creativity?
my strength and the basis of my style. turnover. If I look at all the young This issue has always been important
designers I have supported over the to me. Our job is one which balanc-
How would you define the difference years by allowing them to exhibit at es creativity and commerce, because
between fashion and luxury? the Armani Teatro4… While they’re alone each one is crippled. Creativity
Luxury is an overused term. I prefer the clearly small by comparison to me, I’ve alone can become an end unto itself,
word authenticity: my creations express been impressed by their ability to create and excessive commerce can lead to
the true culture of Italian know-how. their own niche in the market, and how [creativity] drying up. Finding a link
Fashion is simply the system which con- they’ve achieved success through great between the two requires a lot of atten-
veys these values. perseverance. tion, but above all the will to question
yourself – and that’s the same for both
In terms of business and strategy, Why have you set up this mentoring creative people and business people.
what would you say distinguishes fash- project within the Armani Teatro?
ion from other sectors, such as smart- Having got to this point in my career, What piece of advice would you give to
phones, computers or hotels? I understood it was vital to give young a young designer?
Fashion is always based on frivolous people — the designers of tomorrow Remember that a collection is an idea
yet extremely profound impulses. It is — some help. A designer’s job is so that’s grown over six months, and it
the industry of change and renewal; it tough: every six months, no, every day, needs six months of commitment, and

‘I’m surrounded by very capable colleagues who

I’ve trained with succession in mind. Many of them
are, paradoxically, even more ‘Armani’ than I am.’
promises beauty and makes it a reali- you have to question yourself in order of work. From an economic standpoint
ty, with infinite changes every season. to understand whether you’re creating also remember that, when creating
It is a business made from both extreme the right thing; to understand whether an object, you need to think about its
concreteness and volatility – it is so a particular coup de théâtre is right. I marketability. Also, try and create for
exciting, a continuous challenge, with believe, however, that there is one ulti- tomorrow, because these days things
parameters which never stay the same. mate secret of thought, of creation, of are so unpredictable.
product — and that is truth.
What do you think of the democratisa- To what extent does human manage-
tion of fashion by ‘fast fashion’ brands? Are people born designers, or can ment, of both creative and business
I believe that fast fashion has brought these skills be acquired over time? staff, take up your time and energy?
about a concept of speed and low-cost I think you pick up skills with experi- And in what ways does good people
that has effectively changed the world ence, but the initial talent is innate. management drive a successful busi-
of clothing. Personally, I thought about ness?
this market – which is a very interesting Are there other brands or designers Managing staff takes a lot of my energy,
one, not just because of the price points that interest you today? but it is vital. By feeling involved with
– back in 1991 with the A/X Armani I am interested in authentic businesses, me, my staff really become part of the
Exchange. It was not a low-cost collec- which push forward the values of their company; thus they all work together
tion, but a complete fashion line: a total respective fields. towards a goal.
urban look for consumers between the
ages of 16 and 25, based on the fast-fash- Do you agree that today’s fashion Have you ever thought about taking a
ion formula. designers need to become increasingly step back?

48 49
Staying Power Giorgio Armani

Honestly not. My life and my work coin- over the years? individual – do you have a specific plan
cide, so taking a step back is something I can sum this up with one word: inde- in place for how the company will look
I’ve never contemplated. pendence. It is the only value I believe and operate beyond your lifetime?
in; it allows me to grow and to express Nowadays, I am surrounded by very
How much more can your company myself authentically. capable colleagues: people that I have
grow, while maintaining the balance trained and helped grow with succes-
between quality and your values? Can How do you see the future of the brand? sion in mind. In this company there are
the Armani universe ever get too big? I have had many different people many people who work with me who
The constant growth has never involved approach me to propose partnerships… are, paradoxically, more ‘Armani’ than
me turning my back on quality. I have and each time I ask myself one simple even me. Everything will depend on
never looked for growth for growth’s thing: ‘Is it worth it?’ My response has how they manage the absence of the,
sake. There is not a size which is too big always been guided by one certainty: I let’s say, ‘genius’ – the creator of atmos-
for the Armani brand, but for me, eve- don’t like being a spectator, or having to pheres – in keeping the business going.
rything needs to happen in an organic accept the thoughts of others. I can, however, assure you that eve-
manner. rything is in place for, when the time
It’s very clear that you are an excep- comes, my team to operate completely
What maxim has guided the company tionally organised and disciplined independently.

1. The World Fair (also referred to open its own archive and exhibition otti is often credited with convincing 4. The Armani Teatro is situated on
as ‘Expo’) is a large public exhibition space, entitled the Armani Silos. the designer to open his own compa- via Bergognone in Milan. A former
held in varying cities across the world, ny in 1975. Nestlé chocolate factory, Armani
the first and most famous of which 2. Sergio Galeotti (1945-1985) was the commissioned the Japanese architect
– known as The Great Exhibition co-founder and chairman of Giorgio 3. In 2013, the Major of New York, Tadao Ando to convert the industrial
– was held in London’s Crystal Pal- Armani S.p.A.. He was a menswear Michael Bloomberg declared Octo- building into the Armani headquar-
ace in 1851. Expo 2015 opens in Mi- buyer before meeting Armani in 1996, ber 24th ‘Giorgio Armani Day’ to cel- ters and showspace in 2000.
lan in May under the theme “Feeding at the Italian seaside resort of Forte ebrate the designer’s longstanding re-
the Planet, Energy for Life.” In con- dei Marmi, after which they become lationship to the city, and his contribu-
junction with Expo 2015, Armani will lovers and business partners. Gale- tion to its economy.

50 51
A letter from… Beijing

The dinner of discontent

In China, Uncle Xi’s new regime means tycoon spending is over.
By Hung Huang. Illustration by François Berthoud.

Couple of days ago, I went to a dinner party full of very prom- said. “Why do you need to be a little division chief?” The
inent people. The CEO of an investment banking firm was whole table laughed at me. “You see,” replied the tycoon,
hosting, and among the guests was a musician whose music “this is what American education does to people, it dumbs
has been played in every single major symphony hall around you down. Actually, it makes you too dumb for China.”
China, a stealth tycoon who made billions taking Chinese “Wait. If I am dumb, explain to me why you need to be a
companies public, and a princess whose blood connection is division chief,” I asked. “If you don’t get it now, don’t both-
totally communist royalty – I mean, if she were British, you er. It’s too late anyway. The party is over,” he sighed. I vague-
would need to curtsey in front of her. ly understood what he was taking about: it has been a des-
These kinds of small dinner parties are usually full of mer- perate year for luxury brands in China. The glory days are
ry-making and gossip. There is always some sexual scandal so over that brands are closing stores instead of opening
to talk about. Take the tycoon at the table; he is the most them. Marketing budgets are being slashed a million differ-
illustrious bachelor of Beijing and has been the ruin of many ent ways, and people are fleeing the industry for other growth
a fashion editor here. Normally he would have some antic opportunities.
about how he narrowly escaped being tied down by an ex-girl- “So, do you think the luxury market will bounce back?”
friend, or how he nearly double-booked himself in the same I asked the tycoon. “No way. Haven’t you heard? This is the
hotel room. But the night we had dinner, the tycoon was not new normal. The days of tycoon spending are over,” he said.
a happy man. “But what about the new middle class – won’t they make
“What the hell are they thinking about?” he demanded. up for the drop in sales?” I asked. “Hahaha!” laughed the
The “they” he was talking about was the Industrial Com- tycoon. “You cannot do the math, can you? Someone like
merce Alliance, kind of a national rotary club for private Chi- me can walk into a store and spend a couple of million yuan
nese business owners – except in China, the rotary club is in one visit; how many middle class consumers will it take to
financed by the government. “They want me to register all make up that couple of million? And in what period of time?”
my assets! I mean down to the last penny! That’s ridiculous! The musician also has his woes with Dada’s new regime:
It is really going too far.” “They want to know why my wife has Hong Kong status,” he
The tycoon was talking about the ongoing anti-graft cam- complained. “Isn’t Hong Kong part of China?” I asked. They
paign by Xi Dada [Uncle Xi], the new Secretary of the Chi- said yes. “So why is it different if your wife is Hong Kong or
nese Communist Party. One of his measures is to request all Hunan?!” He replied, “You know what they said; you know
government officials to register their assets. The tycoon is at what we mean. Fuck that.” Part of the anti-graft campaign is
the same time an official, albeit a lowly one; but such a title has to weed out so-called “naked officials” in the system. Naked
helped him gain credibility with his local IPO clients. means their families have all emigrated abroad and taken up
When Dada first came to power, the tycoon was very hap- citizenship in a country where they are beyond the reach of
py. He boasted that they came from the same province and Chinese authorities.
their fathers were mildly familiar with each other. He had The musician has a government job as well. Lowly but pow-
found pictures of the two families together and had them erful, he serves on several committees where he can make or
re-scanned, enlarged and nailed to the wall for everyone to break other musicians careers. “So resign.” I told him. “Why
see. At a gathering of princelings, he shook Dada’s hand and should I?” he retorted, “I spent my best years building this
introduced himself by whispering his childhood nickname. thing, now I resign?” The investment banker did not comment
But Dada responded with a confounded look and a rather much, he simply said that he’s thinking of doing more writ-
loud, “Who?” ing than business, and maybe moving to Hong Kong because
We all laughed at the tycoon’s self-deprecating story. So he the air is cleaner. The princess smiled and giggled through-
does not remember you, big deal, we comforted him. “Yeah, out this conversation, cleverly avoiding any comment. She just
but I do care about this registration shit,” he said. “Quit,” I said she was enjoying her family life.

88 89
A letter from… London

The visually super literate

Why fashionistas and 15-year-olds all ‘like’ IDEA Books.
By David Owen. Illustration by François Berthoud.

Instagram is the social medium of choice for the fashion plus collections specials for Details; David Hicks circa 1972;
industry. It is also the technology of choice for our company and a lot of River Phoenix books from Japan. That’s one day!
IDEA Books. We were by no means the first to adopt it but We can’t say what effect this will have on anyone but surely it
when we turned up late, in 2012, we did at least immediately is a good thing – as it’s unlikely the new visually super literate
see the potential for what we do. We didn’t have to adapt to will use their powers for evil doing!
the technology or the format. Instagram already did what we ‘Everything’ as in ‘This is everything’ is the highest acco-
did — just better. lade an image can attain. The truth is that the edit is every-
My partner Angela and I have been sharing images and thing. It is a little bit mind-bending, but our collective appre-
describing/selling them in the least amount of words since ciation of visual culture is actually shaping what that culture
the mid-nineties. It is what we do. When we are in our office is. It is best explained by example. To start with, consider
with an appointment, we pick up books and open them to cer- that of the 100,000 plus followers of the IDEA account, 99.9
tain images that we know just work. These are the images that percent of them will see three pictures of a book on Insta-
inspire, and to which people aspire to. gram but not the book itself. The book may have 200 pages
The customers we had before Instagram are the same cus- of images, but they see three. We always show the cover and
tomers who follow the account now – albeit there are now a two images from inside the book. We choose the images we
lot more of them. Fashion designers, stylists, art directors and think will sell the books – these are the images we think are
photographers didn’t have to adapt to the technology either. ‘the best’. So the edit begins with us.
They were already visually super literate. They always did Of course, if you take Kate Moss as an example, images
communicate in images – between each other, as well as to of her are far too prevalent for us to really shape anyone’s
the world at large. understanding of who she is or what she looks like. But take
In some ways what is being created now is a new visual cur- Charlotte Rampling, and it is quite possible that a 15 year-
rency. Images have a value (numbers of likes/new followers old’s idea of her is entirely shaped by our choice of images
attracted) and can be swapped and traded (regrammed). Hav- from her 1987 book With Compliments. Obviously, there is
ing a good eye can now bring popularity, and that in itself has a whole world of Charlotte Rampling they can then go and
a real value. Of course everyone has the same technology and explore for themselves.
the same opportunity – whether that makes success more or However our edit is not everything. It is influenced by two
less likely is hard to say. other factors. Firstly, we sell certain books again and again
If I were 15 now and following the IDEA account, I would but don’t like to repeat ourselves too much on Instagram, so
be fairly certain that I would see more diverse and remark- we vary the selection. And secondly, it is beneficial for us to
able visual references in one day than I would have seen in a be popular. The most liked images are the most shared and
year when I was actually 15 and growing up in the suburbs. attract more new followers. So when we vary the selection we
A quick look back at the last 24 hours on IDEA brings up respond to the popularity of the images and we will return to
Joseph Tricot with Herb Ritts and Michael Roberts using those that are most successful. This means that it is not just us
Greek iconography and jumpers worn as skirts on men; Kate that determines which pictures of Charlotte Rampling any-
Moss for Margiela in the white collection of 1993; Andreas one sees, but it is everyone who determines which pictures of
Gursky’s photographs of Prada stores; Diane Keaton’s 1980 Charlotte Rampling that everyone sees. And that is a weight
photobook of hotel interiors; Bill Cunningham’s 100 page off our shoulders!

90 91
A letter from… Paris

Luxury quantity
Why making higher quality products in fewer numbers makes sense.
By Mesh Chhibber. Illustration by François Berthoud.

After over more than 20 years working in fashion commu- today, even when they cost over £1,000. It’s not an issue that
nications, first for John Galliano in Paris (1993-2000) and these production methods can yield only small volumes for
finally with my own agency, I decided to quit PR and launch a my partner and I. We believe it ensures quality, and our inten-
label that makes beautiful objects in leather, with my friend tion is to offer up to four objects a year, each limited to edi-
Sofie C. Guerrero, a visual artist and dancer. Fashion in Par- tions of 100. There is little commercial need for vast acces-
is in the 1990s marked the tail-end of a culture and scene that sory collections twice a year: brands often refer to the hero
began in the ‘70s with Kenzo, Yves Saint Laurent and Karl bags in their large collections, which makes me question the
Lagerfeld, and continued through the ‘80s at nightspots like purpose of the non-hero bags.
Club Sept and Le Palace and with the designers Claude Mon- Having found skilled craftsmen, we applied the same high
tana, Azzedine Alaïa and Thierry Mugler. By the end of the standards to the leather. The overwhelming majority of tan-
‘90s, the creative scene was replaced by a far more business- neries use the modern chrome tanning method, which is the
minded environment, with conglomerates like LVMH, PPR worst for the environment as chrome is a heavy metal, and
(now Kering) and Richemont being joined by private equity during the tanning process forms the carcinogenic compound
firms in investing in luxury brands. Chromium VI. We use vegetable tanned leather – a millen-
As the industry became more financially hard-nosed, nia-old process with the least environmental impact – from
it focused on marketing and advertising, where once the a Belgium tannery. The vegetable tanned skins come from
emphasis had been design and craftsmanship. It’s extreme- European cattle farms where the animals are well looked
ly hard to produce beautifully crafted products to meet the after, which in turn results in skins that are less damaged.
demands of an ever-increasing audience: Louis Vuitton now Our choice of leather is also aesthetic, as this process shows
has over 400 stores, compared to two in 1970. Gucci, hav- the skins’ grain, pores, folds and sometimes wounds: a meta-
ing experienced strong growth under Domenico De Sole and phor for life and time which contrasts well with the architec-
Tom Ford, now has nearly 300 stores, compared to 78 in 1997. tural form of our first object.
However, ecommerce has created an incredible opportunity: The decision to launch the label was fuelled partly from
as the luxury industry moves to manufacture in lower wage being underwhelmed by the hyper-consumerist society that
countries in order to increase their profit margins, a space for we’ve become; one reflected in Balzac’s Peau de Chagrin, and
small-volume brands that care about design and European its concerns with status, arrivestes with fortunes of dubious
craftsmanship has emerged. origin, and obsession with the decadent consumption of lux-
Sofie and I spent the first eight months after I left my com- ury goods. We’ve taken the book’s title as our brand name.
pany slowly travelling around Europe by train – with time These European craftspeople have a knowledge of and a
being a true luxury – as far afield as Ljubljana, and as close as pride in their work that I fear will disappear within two gen-
the Cotswolds in England, looking for small ateliers and indi- erations. Their skills will be difficult to revive. Wouldn’t it be
vidual craftsmen who use traditional leather making tech- more rewarding to buy fewer goods in the knowledge they are
niques. One of the things they had in common is that each genuinely well-made, using methods that have been honed
individual will make the entirety of our first bag, not just a over centuries and, like a Savile Row suit, be treasured from
part before handing it over to another person like on a car one generation to the next? Real luxury is being able to trav-
factory assembly line – and the individual dedication shows. el, to read and reflect, and to design and produce beautiful
The work the artisans do is made to last, and the bags they objects crafted to standards of excellence, without thinking of
make will be passed on from one generation to the next – collection plans and seasonal deadlines. Our first bag is being
something that cannot be said of luxury bags being made made by a single artisan living in the Swiss Jura.

92 93
Face à face Dick Page

Mirror image
by Dick Page

Photographs: Dick Page and James Gibbs. Make-up: Dick Page. Model: Jamie Bochert c/o The Lions NY. Shirt by Zero+Maria Cornejo.

Acrylic paint samples, 2008-2014.

Jamie in yellow, blue and brown, 2015. In 1997, I began my process of colour creation by painting samples. I have hundreds and hundreds of these samples. The
I wanted to do something quick and loose that played with the wasn’t wearing any foundation, and the blue colour-cream solid areas of acrylic and watercolour onto sheets of canvas ones with a masking tape border are my final selections and
idea of colour, so I shot Jamie Bochert in my apartment using prototype in this portrait is the closest likeness of the blue taped onto wooden surfaces. I paint up to twelve panels a day will be sent to the Shiseido laboratory in Japan to be trans-
colour-cream prototypes by Shiseido to frame her eyes. She acrylic sample in the image on the opposite page. and once I’m done I trim them into squares to use as colour formed into colours and prototypes.

94 95
Archive Katy Englandz

‘We weren’t
excited by
the catwalks.’
The personal archive of Katy England.

By Jerry Stafford
Photographs by Willy Vanderperre
Styling by Katy England

96 97
 Archive Katy Englandz

Jamie wears vintage jacket

by Biba from Katy England
Customized body suit and leather Jake wears leather jacket,
briefs from Katy England t-shirt and flares from Katy England
98 belt from Rellik
Vintage Alaïa 99 suede
Santiag boots in tan leopard
Suede platform mule from Guiseppe Zanotti from Saint Laurent by Hedi Slimane
Marjan wears leather jacket
Archive
by East West Musical Katy Englandz
Instruments Co. San Francisco
and dress by Mr. Freedom
both from Katy England

Kate wears leather jacket

by Junya Watanabe Spring/Summer 2005
Tulle coat, Guns and Roses t-shirt
100 101 England
and patched jeans all from Katy
Vintage Vivienne Westwood shoes from Rellik
 Archive Katy Englandz

Josh wears Runaways t-shirt,

necklace and belt from Katy England
Trousers 102
by Tom Ford 103
Vintage boots (models own) Jamie wears embroidered body from Katy England
Archive Katy Englandz

104 105jacket and

Jamie wears leather
embroidered body from Katy England
Marjan wears dress by Mr. Freedom
Archive
and vintage t-shirt both from Katy England Katy Englandz

Greta wears
106 107Tits t-shirt
Vivienne Westwood
from Katy England
 Kate wears black sheer dress
Archive Katy Englandz
from Mairead Lewin
Vintage Corset from Katy England.

Greta wears Joan Jet t-shirt, vintage dress, jacket by

108Garçons all from Katy England
Comme des 109
Vintage boots from Josh Quinton
 Archive Katy Englandz

Marjan wears teddy boy jacket

and t-shirt from Katy England
Denim cut-offs from Mint Vintage Reba wears bra top
110boots in silver, red and turquoise
Lace-up star and Bow Wow 111
Wow t-shirt
from Saint Laurent by Hedi Slimane both from Katy England
Jake wears112
Archive

leather jacket,
t-shirt and flares from Katy England
Models: Kate Moss, Jamie Bochert, Marjan Jonkman, Josh Quinton, Reba Maybury, Jake L & Greta Varlese. Hair: Malcolm Edwards c/o Art Partner. Make-up: Lynsey Alexander c/o Streeters. Manicure: Lyndsay McIntosh.
Photography Assistance: Jared Beck & Robert Willey. Styling Assistance: James Campbell, Cristina Firpo, Philly Piggott. Hair Assistance: Rebekah Calo, Sophie Anderson & Stelios Chondras. Make-up Assistance: Camila Fernandez,
Sarah Mierau, Hadeel El-Tal. Manicure Assistance: Becca Gray. Lighting Tech: Romain Dubus. Digital Tech: Victor Gutierrez. Production by Sylvia Farago. Production Assistants: Raphael Bliss & Lisa Stokland.
Katy Englandz

by Junya Watanabe Spring/Summer

and tulle coat both from Katy England.
113 2005
Kate wears leather jacket
Leather biker jacket from Found & Vision
Archive
Corset and boots from Katy England Katy England
Leather trousers from Givenchy by Riccardo Tisci
Kate wears her own ring

Katy England knows how to work a Strange were born of a particular Lon- rules. And I sometimes question that
look. Stylist and creative consultant to don street culture: a sexual and social and ask; why do we need to do that?
Alexander McQueen from his earliest underground whose multi-layered sub- It’s very clever and he is a very clever
collections until a few years before his strata has constantly influenced the guy. I’ve spoken to people afterwards,
untimely death, England now collab- regeneration and reinvention of the city to Bobby [Gillespie, England’s hus-
orates closely with designer Riccardo and its hybrid self-representation. band] and Alistair [Mackie, stylist] and
Tisci, Creative Director of Givenchy, And it is exactly this enigmatic, intan- friends who watched it, and they’ve said
on both his women’s and men’s collec- gible and indefinable quality which it was so well executed, and his is a for-
tions. She also continues to work as a England has sourced and explored mula that works. But perhaps because
freelance fashion editor and consultant over the years in her work as a stylist this was the first time I’ve worked with
to an intimate family of collaborators and image-maker. She is constantly him on womenswear… it was interest-
and friends. cross-referencing the posture and pose ing for me as I am more confident at
England first met McQueen when of rock iconography, and the sexual and womenswear.
she was the fashion editor of London’s social subversion of the street, reinter-
Evening Standard newspaper in 1993, preting fashion’s past through its pre- It seemed more like a couture collec-
and he had just presented Taxi Driver, sent in order to create a spontaneous, tion than prêt-a-porter …
his first collection after graduating from emotional document. I love the fact that he can give people
Central Saint Martins. He saw some- In the shoot for System, made in col- both. We want ready-to-wear – I want
thing in the way she dressed, and asked laboration with photographer Wil- ready-to-wear – and girls can really
her to come on board as his stylist, even ly Vanderperre, England drew upon wear it, and it’s shown in a manner that’s
though she had no previous experience her considerable personal archive and cool, easy and wearable. I also think

‘The first shoot I ever did was glam rock, because

it was my base level. I grew up in the Seventies and
that stuff was all over the bloody telly.’
of working with a designer. McQueen sourced clothes from across London’s people want the beautiful workman-
was right to follow what he intuitively best vintage collections in a response ship and they also want the drama, and
saw in England – she became his ‘sec- to the city’s convulsive urban beauty; he manages both. I think it’s good to be
ond opinion’ on every stage of the cre- to the music, attitude and energy which like that. Why should they be separate?
ative process: the research, the collec- powers its cultural motor.
tions and spectacular shows. So this is the first Givenchy women’s
System interviewed Katy England Jerry Stafford: Congratulations on collection you’ve worked on? How does
the same day London paid homage to the Givenchy show! It seemed so con- it differ from working on the men’s,
McQueen at the opening of Savage trolled and precisely executed – how aside from the fact you are clearly
Beauty – a retrospective of the design- did you feel about it? working on a different silhouette?
er’s work at the Victoria and Albert Katy England: I think Riccardo [Tis- Givenchy has two completely different
Museum – and the legendary Blitz ci] is very mathematical, very logisti- production methods, so it’s quite com-
Kid and Visage singer Steve Strange cal and he likes this tight control. He plicated. For the menswear, we have a
was mourned at a funeral service in has proven methods of how he likes to lot more clothes that we style at a lat-
his hometown of Porthcawl, Wales. approach his looks and his styling, and er point, whereas the womenswear is
In some way these two events seemed I’ve been working with him for about designed as outfits from the beginning,
inextricably linked: celebrating the three years now, so I’ve learnt these so there’s a totally different approach
influential lives of two people whose and I’ve got used to his methods. Some- to each one. I think Riccardo enjoys
creativity changed the way their gener- times I find them a little too controlling the menswear, he has so much fun with
ation considered ideas of gender, beau- and I sort of encourage him to break the it, and it’s very true to him – I feel like
ty and identity. Both McQueen and rules a bit – because he sets himself the there’s a fun and enjoyment with that.

114 115
Archive Katy England

But for me, it’s a little bit harder because How did you first meet Riccardo? on. He really wants that, he really wel- skirt, and a pair of shoes from Vuit- was your role at McQueen? Was it to hometown – you can’t be here and not
I am not a man wearing it, and I think Jefferson [Hack] asked him to do a comes it. It’s an important thing to have ton. He’d buy me these amazing things interpret the work of the designer – to talk about what he did in London at the
that’s the advantage of a woman com- Givenchy special for Dazed & Con- those people around him, and he takes because he wanted to see someone in inspire him or her to create in a par- very beginning.
ing to help a male designer with wom- fused, and he said he would do it, but opinions from all of the team. He sur- them. We were both obsessed with Mar- ticular way?
enswear, in that we can wear it and say only with me. So I said, ‘Okay, let’s give rounds himself with really young peo- giela, and we would love to go looking I think we are helping them, essential- How did you work with Claire Wilcox,
how we feel about wearing it – we have it a go’. And we did a great shoot togeth- ple as well, and I think he’s a very open at the all the designer stuff. I think it ly. I mean, being a woman is part of the the curator of the V&A show, on this
that opinion, and I think that’s why we er with [photographer] Matthew Stone, guy. I think that adds to the strength of was just being out there and absorbing equation: they like looking at the way particular section of the show?
are all doing these jobs! and it was under quite tricky circum- the brand. stuff on the streets. And he would get so you wear clothes. I think we just need We had to look at what archives were
stances; it was just before the holidays excited when you’d see a great girl walk- to inspire them, to come up with sugges- available, because not many pieces had
What is it that draws you to a design- when everyone disappears. We got on It’s a very different world now work- ing down the street who looks fierce and tions, inspirations, ideas, to be someone ever been produced, or had been giv-
er like Tisci? Where do you think his so well, we just clicked and we made ing in Paris with Givenchy to when you has got a major look – we all like that. to talk to, to bounce with – is one part of en away to people to wear; to friends,
strengths as a designer lie, and what is some great pictures – and then right started at the Evening Standard in the the job. But then another part of the job to wear in nightclubs, to models to pay
it about his character as well as his crea- after that he just asked if I would do the 1990s and worked on the early Alexan- Totally. And in your case, music has is helping them to edit their own stuff, them. Everything disappeared, so it
tive acumen that really appeals to you? menswear, and that was the beginning. der McQueen shows. What was the first always been a driving force in how you and as you go through the process to help became like, ‘Okay, what we can get
I have an attraction to strong women – McQueen show you worked on? put clothes together. Was this rock aes- them edit because there is always too our hands on?’ I actually had quite a bit
I think I’ve just about worked that out You’ve always been interested in a It was called The Birds and it was in thetic already there when you worked much, too many ideas – and then sort of from that time, myself, but if they did
now. In all of my work the girl has been fashion aesthetic that is cross-pollinat- 1994 – we had just met a few months with McQueen, or did it develop later refine it all. They’ve got to value and like try to exhibit looks from every London
quite tough and powerful, and that was ed with music, art, subcultures and the earlier, quite randomly, and he asked if as a personal signature? your taste, otherwise what are we doing? show it would be a bit of a jumble. So in
something I did at the beginning with street – how does this work with Tis- I would style the show. And I had nev- I think it is something you already have the end it was decided: Highland Rape,
Lee [McQueen]. That was my connec- ci, who can have a very refined couture er styled a show before, but we connect- in you. I remember the first shoot I ever Going back to the earliest part of The Birds, and The Hunger [collec-
tion with him back then; we liked the aesthetic? Do you help to counterbal- ed and boom – that was the beginning. did: I was still at the Evening Standard McQueen’s career – which was miss- tions], and unfortunately they’re only

‘It’s great when you have gay friends who buy you ‘Joan Jett is one of my all-time inspirations.
extravagant odd things. Lee [McQueen] bought Every time I see pictures of the Runaways, they have
a Comme skirt just to see how it would look on me.’ that attitude I love – they are just ballsy girls.’
same type of girl. And now I’m finding ance this, or does he already have this How did you function as a team? but Rankin said, ‘Come and do a shoot ing from the New York retrospective – on ten mannequins. I wish there were
that’s the same kind of thing with Ric- more subversive aesthetic embedded Where did you find that first common with me at Dazed and Confused’. I real- and will be justly celebrated in Savage more because there is so much more
cardo, and so we connect with that. within his vision? ground – what were those shared inter- ly wanted to do that kind of magazine, Beauty here in London: how involved to tell, but with ten you can somehow
I think he already has this subversive ests, where did you go, what did you do and he gave me the opportunity. The were you when it came to informing the make a bit of coherence.
Do you have similar cultural referenc- aesthetic. He is really aware of the together, where did you hang out? first shoot I ever did was rock, because V&A’s curators around the early peri-
es in art, music, and photography – or street, you know, for example, the show Oh wow. At that time he was so inno- it was my base level, let’s call it, and it od of McQueen’s career? It kind of reminds me of the show that
is it more about the woman? we just did [Autumn/Winter 2015/16] cent and it was just creatively led; it was was all about leather. There was this I wasn’t involved in Savage Beau- Tilda Swinton did with Olivier Sail-
His woman is the Latino woman, and was all about Latino gang girls. He never this discussion of production or amazing jacket which funnily enough ty the first time around, at all. It was lard in Paris, where she held Napole-
that’s quite new for me because that’s is amazing at the research – it’s from the worry of selling. It was amazing! It has been copied – it’s a very famous very close to his death and it was quite on’s jacket and smelt it as if to say, ‘If
not been my woman, but I love it. He everywhere… was a total dream world. What did we jacket by the General Trading Compa- strange in that respect; I don’t know, a only this jacket could talk…’
always, throughout the whole process, do? He loved London; it was all very ny, a beautiful appliquéd metallic jack- lot of people just felt quite closed and It’s been amazing actually in that
wants it to be real and he wants this real- Do you also bring your own research London-based. And where did we go? et with a bird’s head on the collar; very didn’t really want to deal with things. respect. Each of the pieces has a story
ity so he doesn’t like it to get too theat- when working with him? Um… clubs, London gay clubs really glam rock – Miu Miu once did a whole So I think it was interpreted at the Met for us – they have huge memories. I did
rical, and I think I like that too. I mean Yeah. With the men’s, I’m there from – but we were always milling around season on it, and Riccardo actually had in a very romantic way; obviously the a shoot for AnOther with Nick Knight,
obviously I love the theatrics, but even the very beginning; so we go through all bookshops and galleries. I would come it in his references too. And that was my most exceptional pieces, romantic and and I called upon all those colleagues
when I approach an editorial I want it to the ideas and that’s the process I love. in and he would start talking about the first shoot. You can’t get away from it: beautifully crafted pieces were used, and friends from the early days to get
be desirable to the viewer, I want there It’s just so much more satisfying to be collection, and then he’d get bored – I grew up in the bloody Seventies and because they are so impressive, and that the pieces back from them for the shoot,
to be a thread of something they can involved from the beginning and not so easily bored – so it’d be like, let’s go glam rock was on the telly. was perhaps the angle there. I know that and it was just like going on that journey
take away so it’s not just fantasy. I love just come in five days before the show, shopping! He liked to look round all the Sam Gainsbury [of production compa- again. Before that I wasn’t ready to do
fantasy, but I feel like I am more drawn but to have been there all of the way, designer stores and, you know, I remem- In a more general sense, what do you ny Gainsbury & Whiting] and the brand it, but now I was ready to embrace it, to
to this reality as well. and to have helped on the shoes and so ber him buying me things like a Comme believe the role of the stylist is? What felt that as he’s back in London – his re-look at it, to remember it all and to

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celebrate all the amazing times we had, styling so well, and I feel like I’ve got a and she fits the clothes I can’t fit into When did you guys first meet? the Givenchy collection. has a long-standing love affair with
and to try and enjoy and talk about it, bit of a partner. anymore [laughs]. We probably got really pally when our Joan Jett is one of my all-time great rock as a style reference as well. Where
because it’s so interesting. kids were born and she started her rela- inspirations because I guess it’s that do your tastes or aesthetics diverge, or
Is this the first time you and Willy have For me I am also seeing a bit of Alice tionship with Jefferson, which is now 13, tough girl thing. Why that is attractive are they really that close?
Are there pieces of your own in the worked together? Cooper in there… 14 years ago. I was very close to Jeffer- to me, I just don’t know, but she is. The Kate is more classic, I would say, as she
show itself? No, we did a couple of great stories for V Oh yeah, that is Alice Cooper. The bow son, I grew up with him in the magazine leathers, every time I see pictures of her, is in the public eye and so has to be so
Yeah, from The Birds. He made a lot magazine, which went well; and we love tie actually belongs to Johnny Thunders and he was very friendly with Kate, so the Runaways – they are just ballsy girls aware of what flatters her because she
of plastic stuff for The Birds, and it’s working together. I love the way he gets [from The New York Dolls] – we called she got more friendly with me, and then and they don’t give a shit – they just have is going to have her bloody picture tak-
all really raw, like little t-shirts that his head around the styling, he doesn’t her Johnny that day because of it. Bob- we both had children very close togeth- that attitude I love. en all the time. Whereas I love a more
were sewn together by himself made just wait for you to present the look to by [Gillespie] has Johnny Thunders’ er – and you know that’s what happens Japanese fit and aesthetic – I don’t think
from this strange plastic. He always him and be like, ‘Okay, now I’ll photo- bow tie. He owns it. when you have kids: you want to be with Tell me about the casting? Were you she likes that so much. The rock thing
liked really odd materials because graph it’. He is in the styling room and other people who also have kids. looking for a particular physiognomy? is connected, I guess the 1970s connec-
he couldn’t really afford Italian fab- he’s enjoying it with you. Where is the top from? Well, the New York Dolls thing: that’s tion too; but she goes more feminine
ric companies, so he was in Berwick It’s a little dress and it’s from Mr Free- So let’s look at the pictures of Kate why the guys got the make-up, and why than I would. I think we feed off each
Street finding crap and dyeing, bleach- Looking at these pictures of Jamie dom. It’s quite a famous little dress – here, what are these pieces and why I picked little Josh Quentin, the guy other like that; we like bits of each oth-
ing, and spraying it – that I think is real- Bochert, please can you give us a bit Alistair Mackie bought it for me. It’s these pieces? with red hair – he is so cute and inspir- er’s styles and then we put it together.
ly the London bit. What did I have? A of the back story to them: what are the great when you have gay friends who You know what, it was very spontane- ing, and I know him from around Lon-
skirt and trousers from The Birds show references, musical, cultural or street want to buy you extravagant odd things. ous this shoot; I didn’t plan ahead. I don. He looks like one of the New York You both have musician boyfriends;
that are [made from]… we called it foil references that you are sourcing there? just bought along tonnes and tonnes of Dolls, and he lives his life like that, so I what is it is that attracts you to that
– but they’re white cotton ‘bumsters’, I looked at my clothes, my higgledy- Was this Mr Freedom dress made in stuff that I dug out of my wardrobe I was thought I’ve got to have him. The oth- mode of expression?
that he put through this foiling process, piggledy archive, and I thought about 1973? If so, was it an explicit reference sort of playing with, and I just wanted it er boy, Jake, is just quite beautiful and I I am attracted to people who wear their

‘I think stylists need to inspire designers. ‘Kate is more classic – she’s in the public eye so
They’ve got to value your ideas and like your tastes. has to be aware of what flatters her. Whereas I love
Otherwise, what are we doing?’ a Japanese fit. The rock thing is our connection.’
which is like a black layer of plastic that the New York Dolls because there’s so to the iconic Bowie stripe? to be spontaneous because I miss that love a classic man in make-up. I just feel clothes really well, when you see that
goes over them and it looks like a print. much of this glam rock in there, and I It’s got the Mr Freedom label from back way of working… I bought this Junya like, boy or girl, it doesn’t really matter character and you think, ‘Oh my god,
There’s that, and The Birds show was all started thinking, ‘Well what have I got in the day. Watanabe jacket because I love jack- – It wasn’t defined as menswear or wom- they look amazing’. They know their
about road kill, so we had the car tyre and how do I do it?’ I just felt that this ets, like most designers or stylists – that enswear; it is all mixed up. shape, they look confident… I think it’s
print. shoot should be my thing; just trying to Now let’s come to someone who we are was one that Steven [Phillip] from Rel- the energy, and the don’t-give-a-shit
get to the essence of my old wardrobe I both very fond of… Why did you cast lik showed me and it fitted perfectly. I And just going back to this London confidence.
Let’s have a look at the shoot you just suppose. I love vintage and am always Kate Moss in this shoot? think I bought that last year; the Vic- thing – what is the obsession with Lon-
did with Willy Vanderperre. Why did going round to my little sources in Lon- Because of our history, and we have the toriana jacket with a tulle coat over it, don? Why not further north, places Just going back to street style, which
you choose a Belgian photographer, don, and you know, I bought that body same style in some respects; we have which you can’t see so well. It’s lovely, like Manchester, or Liverpool, where has always existed on a social level and
rather than someone more associated suit about seven years ago and it had a similar tastes. I tried to go on being true because I think there are two sides to there have been other equally influen- was a key fashion influence in the 1970s
with London’s cultural soil? beautiful little waistcoat that went with to myself, and she is part of it all. me; I love pink fluffy dresses with roses tial musical and cultural movements? and ‘80s – and then it permeated fash-
Because Willy is hugely fashion, and it which Kate Moss once wore on a cov- and tulle. And so I have this collection Well, I grew up in Manchester and was ion globally with the whole network of
so knowledgeable about fashion, he er of Esquire. And obviously it is tiny, You have a long-standing relationship of romantic, long, tulle-y type things. at Manchester Polytechnic studying magazines. What was your first expe-
is inspiring to work with because he and I could never wear it, but I want- with her, and have done many projects And this is one of them over the leath- fashion there for four years, but it was rience of street or club culture? Where
understands all these references. He ed to put it in a frame I thought was so with her… er jacket – so that is the combination of only in London when I clicked. I came did that first frisson of energy and
has been around fashion for like 25 cute. Anyway, Jamie saw it and was like, I also know we look good in the same my taste, let’s say with the rock t-shirt here and thought, ‘Okay, this is it, this excitement come from?
years. I don’t know his origins… ‘Wow’. She was so sweet – she was in the clothes because of the length of our underneath. is my place’, and you meet like-minded Apart from Top of the Pops, the very
middle of the New York shows and she bodies. Her legs are longer and skin- people and you feel comfortable. taste was in a small village called Betley
He was at the same college… flew herself here for one day and had nier, but when she did all the fittings, I was going to come to the t-shirt, a sig- near Crewe, where I was brought up –
…as Raf [Simons]. What I like about to leave the same day – and I am just I would fit into all her dresses before nature aspect of your work – and I think You were saying that you and Kate and we’d heard there was this nightclub
working with him is that he understands impressed because she is just so tiny, knowing that they would be for Kate. there’s a Joan Jett one somewhere in have very similar tastes in style – she called the Cheshire Cat on a Sunday,

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but it was for youngsters. I think I was through prisms of gender. How have me. So I remember working with Phil All this was going on, and we knew them t-shirt – and this is a point where we Kind of mixed because you feel so sad
14. So me and my friend, who was also these kind of figures affected your own Poynter and going to a New York hotel and just saw them walking down the differ – is that I really do like AC/DC, that he is not still here, because if he was
really into fashion, thought to go to creative vision having experienced it called Hotel 17, where all these club street; just down Old Street, because it Guns N’ Roses, Aerosmith. we wouldn’t be at the V&A – he would
this club, and we spent the whole after- personally, at this formative age? kids lived and hung out, and that kind was all happening in Old Street anyway probably have done an exhibition, but it
noon getting ready. I was into Adam Hugely. I remember the first time I saw of thing was the inspiration for my story. – that was a new area that was coming up Without irony? would be completely different. So I just
and the Ants, and she was into Toyah Boy George, it was on Top of the Pops, It wasn’t ‘Okay, let’s look at the runway away from the city, and all the cool guys Yeah, I love them. I’ve seen AC/DC feel sadness that he is not here anymore
Wilcox; and she painted her face like and I thought, ‘Oh my god! I don’t know and they’ve got x, y, and z’. Never. It was were living in warehouses and that was three times – it’s my favourite gig! I’m with us. But [also] immensely proud,
Toyah, and I had tight trousers with a if it’s a man or a woman’. I really didn’t about living it, you were part of it – I was the thing to do. Dazed & Confused was a real fan; it’s the basic core-level rock. like, wow this guy achieved all this; and
big blouse, and feathers and belts, and know – I don’t think it was something I going to clubs, I was doing the door of there; it was all around. When I was at school, on the bus, it was when you see it together it is quite unbe-
it was all a bit Spandau Ballet, Bowie, was that bothered about – I just think the Dazed & Confused nightclub, so I’d Led-Zep, so it’s not pretend. I love it. lievable. I feel sad I think, yeah…
Adam. So off we went on the bus to this it was really, really intriguing. And I see these great kids. I remember Keith That was very ‘90s I think. Going back
nightclub and we got there, and every- mean, god, they are like icons really Martin, the model, dyeing his hair leop- to something we were talking about: Do you see yourself – sorry to use this How have you changed as an artist and
one was like, ‘Who are these people? aren’t they? I mean, what can I say? ard print, and putting people from the the past and how vintage plays a key rather bombastic term – as an icono- collaborator in recent years – what is it
Look at them’, and everyone started clubs in shoots because they were on role in your approach to styling. Does clast in terms of the vision you strive to that’s important for you to express in
taking photographs of us. I walked into Has their cultural legacy become your doorstep, and you didn’t have the the term ‘vintage’ have any signifi- create? Where do you want to take the your work now?
the club feeling really confident, and I part of your DNA, and the way you facilities to be paying models anyway. cance now that people refer to an out- spectator when you are making fashion Well the industry has hugely changed,
thought, ‘Ooh, I love this, this is amaz- approach styling? fit from 2010 as vintage? How do you images? Is it to question our perception so when we set out twenty years it was
ing’. And so that became our thing, it Oh yeah, I did that Michael Clark sto- Do you think the YBA phenomenon work with vintage clothes? of others, the body, our appearance? purely about creativity – like my begin-
was our regular little haunt, but it wasn’t ry once in AnOther and that was one of that came to the fore in the 1990s had a I’m just so excited by the techniques. Oh god… I just want to be open. I want nings with Lee, my beginnings at these
really that inspiring, we were almost the my favourite stories I have ever done. big influence on you and the people you [When you look at] clothes that are to think that anything is possible, you new magazines – we weren’t interested
ones that were ‘out there’. I think when But I have to say, I try to be natural with worked with then? People like Damien over 100 years old, it’s the technical know, voluptuous big girls can look fan- in advertising sales or anything, it was
side which I think, ‘Oh my god, look at tastic. Boys wearing women’s clothes, purely, purely creative. Now the busi-
the embroidery, look at the shape of the girls wearing men’s clothes, people ness has changed and the digital age has
‘I love a classic man in make-up. I just feel like, boy sleeve, look at the buttons’ – you appre-
ciate it in a very detailed kind of way.
that don’t have the perfect bodies: I just
think that we can do anything, and I
changed it. I took a bit of a break and
came back, and was like, ‘Whoa, what is
or girl, it doesn’t really matter; it’s all mushed up. It comes back to the rock t-shirt we
don’t feel like there are any boundaries.
The most difficult shoot I did was the
going on?’ It is so different, so business-
y and really, I just want to keep trying to
I don’t feel like there are any boundaries.’ touched on earlier, because they are
sort of a vintage staple in your aesthet-
McQueen issue of Dazed, the disabled –
‘Fashion-able’ – issue, with Aimee Mul-
hold onto my original creativity. I can’t
be a fashion editor at a magazine [any-
ic. Why? Are they like postage stamps, lins. But when we came out of it, one of more], because there are all those obli-
I went to Manchester Poly, I remem- my approach – I don’t like references, Hirst, Jake and Dinos Chapman, Sam little cultural signifiers, little ways into the girls who was modelling said, ‘Oh, gations, and I’m not that kind of girl. If
ber Michael Clark came and did Per- but they are there, so I pull the natural Taylor-Wood…? This was something a particular time or place? I never thought I would look so beauti- people want me to do a shoot for a mag-
forming Clothes. He was touring and all ones that are in there and are mine – but that hadn’t really happened before in I think since living with Bobby – 15 ful’. That was it. azine like System or AnOther and they
these kids from London came up, and I I don’t really go off on a reference hunt. London, and it kind of merged intrin- years or whatever it is – his are very want a little bit of something that I can
met Alix Sharkey from i-D magazine, Maybe that’s it; I try to be spontaneous sically with the fashion world. much that; they are memories, like his How do you feel when you walk bring, something that is quite personal
he was the editor at the time. And peo- and true because I want it to be person- I think we really felt it because it feels to record collection. And he is a music through the Savage Beauty show? How and not constrained by the advertisers
ple looked incredible; it blew my mind. al. Because if I don’t do me, then what’s me that Dazed & Confused, the artists collector, so that has infiltrated into me do you feel about McQueen being ele- and isn’t the catwalk looks that maga-
the point? You know what I mean? and Lee McQueen, were all part of the through my relationship with him. But vated to historical importance in a zines have to do, then I am really hap-
It’s funny you should say that because same thing. I remember doing a Dazed the one in the shoot, the Guns N’ Roses museum like the V&A? py to do it.
it’s Steve Strange’s funeral today, who Moving on to the 1990s, how did they interview with Lee, and Lee was mak-
was one of London’s club culture’s differ from the previous decade? ing clothes for the Chapmans’ manne-
iconic figures, and he led that whole I know I was starting out trying to pro- quins – it’s incredible, the guys with the
New Romantic movement which you duce, trying to be creative in my own lit- cock faces and stuff. And there was one
are alluding to – and its leading play- tle way. I know we weren’t excited by the mannequin with all these conjoined
ers have been reappraised recently, catwalks – it was as if Versace, Mugler, bodies and Lee was making ‘bumsters’
particularly with another exhibition all those labels seemed too far away, and for them, and we took the ‘bumsters’ –
at the V&A last year. And of course I don’t think I could have even laid my Jake has a film of this – Lee, Jake, Dinos,
some of the other cultural phenomena hands on those clothes anyway because me, a load of dogs and Lee’s dog, went to
at that time, like Boy George, Michael I was really junior. I never started my a wasteland in the East End and filmed
Clark, artists and club personalities approach to a fashion story with the cat- the dummy with the ‘bumsters’ on. And
like Leigh Bowery, didn’t view fashion walk. I started with what was around I feel that Lee was one of those artists.

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Chronicles of colour Victoire de Castellane

‘We’re
missing
neon
people!’
For fine jeweller Victoire de Castellane,
life is a box of Caran d’Ache.

By Eric Troncy
Portrait by Juergen Teller
Photographs by Antoine Seiter

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Chronicles of colour Victoire de Castellane

Above and following pages: sample swatches of laquer colour scales developed
exclusively for Victoire de Castellane by her Parisian atelier.

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Chronicles of colour Victoire de Castellane

“I think there is a naïve and widespread andradite and spinel. It’s a lexicon from the lightest to the darkest, from
misunderstanding about theories of whose very utterance whets the appetite red through to blue…
colour. Take the colour circle, or rath- of an imagination deeply anchored in The gradation! The infinity of possi-
er the function of the colour circle: it is a childhood memories, faraway impres- bilities promised by that gradation, the
purely theoretical concept existing in the sions and happy accidents. blue, the turquoise, and of course that
mind but not in our actual experience. For those who’ve developed great gesture; pushing on the end of the pen-
Nobody can ever paint it out ‘correct- expertise in any discipline, theory is cil in the box to lift it and make sure you
ly’ because the moment one tries to vis- nothing but an element among others don’t damage the tip.
ualise what has been proved by optical in the exercising of this discipline. You
experiment you get involved with pig- must know how to trust yourself and Did you grow up in Paris, Victoire?
ment – and all the scientific purity is lost. oppose a world that seeks to rationalise Yes, in Paris. On the Avenue d’Eylau, at
I could teach the so-called principles of a state of mind that’s necessarily less so. Trocadéro, at my grandmother’s apart-
my work to anyone in, say, half an hour, Ultimately this is how it becomes less ment. I must have been six or seven
but I doubt if it would be of much use. a question on the theory of colour and years old. It was there – I remember it
Because once you get involved with col- Pantone charts, and more about anima- very precisely – that I discovered those
our reality you are immediately faced tion and memories of mint and grena- Caran d’Ache colouring pencils. I said
with an immense range of variables dine, of a perfumier and a florist. With- to myself, ‘It’s magic, the people who
which govern your vision. These can- out these collective experiences, theory made these must be very kind people.’
not be isolated intellectually without isn’t worth much and technique lacks Then I’d always wonder, ‘How could
distorting the facts of sight.” that disposition for storytelling, without you reproduce that photograph with
Bridget Riley which, the truth be told, boredom would these pencils?’

‘I knew all the darker colours had to exist as

opposites to the light ones. It’s like in real life:
there are serious people and there are fun people.’
When she revealed this secret in triumph. Even the most abstract paint- But not only did you find these box-
1978, the British painter Bridget Riley ings must have a story to tell in order to es wonderful, you also knew what you
already knew that uninterrupted explo- be unique. wanted to do with them.
ration of colour and its illusions formed Oh yes! It wasn’t the object itself, but
the heart of the oeuvre she’d started Eric Troncy: Could you start by shar- what could be done with it. There were
more than ten years previously. Like her ing a colourful childhood memory with colours that I didn’t like, colours that
– and others before her – the fine jeweler me? I found a bit too serious – the browns,
Victoire de Castellane has no intention Victoire de Castellane: The giant box tobacco, khaki…
of renouncing the frenetic exploration of Caran D’Ache, with 96 colours…
of colour: its deceptions and declen- Navy…
sions, its wisdom and scandalous poten- Easy but acceptable. 96 colours is a lot! Yes and the navy, exactly. All the dark-
tial. Instead of painting, de Castellane, It certainly is! er colours in fact, but I knew they had to
who is Creative Director of Christian exist, as opposites. I imagined it was the
Dior fine jewellery, and has exhibited But oddly I can visualise them too, all same thing in real life: in life there are
her objets d’art at Gagosian galleries in those colouring pencils. serious people – so hence these serious
London and New York, prefers anoth- That metal box with a photo of the colours – and then there are fun people;
er medium – a combination of precious mountains on the lid – probably a Swiss and thus less serious colours. I thought,
stones and lacquer – and she’s substitut- landscape. ‘That’s what the world is like!’
ed scientific pigment references for the
folklore of gem names: kunzite, opal, And most of all, the wonderful grada- You’re right, the world is like that. I
Paraiba tourmaline, spessartine garnet, tion: the pencils organised by colour, don’t need to sketch that out for you!

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Chronicles of colour Victoire de Castellane

What were you drawing back then with [a French children’s television show], Yes, you’re right. All the white opals,
the colouring pencils? there’s a fakir, I think, whose name is absolutely.
Landscapes, animals, ladies, dresses… “le Grand Yaka”, an oriental turbaned
but mainly landscapes I seem to remem- prince who wears lots of rings, very big Are the colours of the stones you use
ber. Self-portraits, situations. I loved rings, not at all subtle, which are a sym- today linked to childhood memories,
the Technicolor of Hollywood come- bol of power. flavours or experiences?
dies; that very saturated effect. For me Of course! There’s the L’Oiseau bleu
those colours represented a sort of mag- Ah, so it’s a man who wears rings. ring, the sapphire. I had a book of fairy
ical, very kindly world. Yes, you know that in these animated tales by Charles Perrault 3, which was
films there is always a fakir who wears amazing. All of the illustrations were
You mention Hollywood comedies, but a big ring with a red stone and I thought in black-and-white but I’d always imag-
I believe you were also touched by ani- it was the most beautiful jewel in the ine them in colour. When I opened the
mated films. In fact we’re both great world. It was like a solid pomegranate. book again a few years later, I was con-
admirers of Aglaé et Sidonie 1, with the And that’s also why I liked these jew- vinced the illustrations were in colour.
pink pig and the bright orange beak of els: they looked to me like frozen pome-
the goose… granate or mint water… My relation- Your mind coloured in the film…
The headscarf, the banging doors of the ship to colour developed through my You have no idea how depressing I find
barn, which are brown. And the fox too. taste buds. black-and-white films. Then again, I’m
not convinced colouring them at a lat-
The fox! All those animated films from You’re right: whether we admit it or er date is such a good thing either. They
our childhood – let’s not forget Colar- not, yellow is obviously lemon! should have been in colour to start with.

‘Black and white is good for radio. I prefer to listen

in black and white, and watch in colour. You’ve no
idea how depressing I find black-and-white films.’
gol! – have something of the Caran It can be honey too! But red is, without I’m less enchanted by black-and-white
d’Ache about them. Measured, well- a doubt, pomegranate. And green, obvi- films than those in colour. Black and
placed and essential blocks of colours, ously, is mint – it’s better than broccoli. white is good for radio. I prefer to listen
with rarely any gradation… in black and white, and watch in colour.
Oh yes, I also loved Hector’s House, Yes, although for future generations,
The Magic Roundabout… green could also be kale! What about the Sistine Chapel, do you
Do you remember Coucoulina2 ice prefer it before or after its restoration?
There is a little something of The Mag- cream? The colours are totally different.
ic Roundabout in some of the jewellery Probably before.
you created later on… Of course! Haven’t we already chatted
That’s right! Bringing the jewellery to about that before? I don’t often get the And yet, when you use colours they’re
life, giving life to something inanimate. chance to talk about Coucoulina… far from being as faded as those of the
Do you remember how you had to put Sistine before restoration.
When you were little, what sort of jew- the bottom of the box in hot water so Yes, but I’m starting something. My
ellery did the people around you wear? that the chocolate would melt over the starting point is very vibrant, but may-
Classic colourful jewels, but I thought pistachio? That was the trick! Brown be over time my colours will fade. That
they were extraordinary. I thought the over green, and there was also caramel is part of life, it doesn’t matter, and they
jewellery was a bit serious but the col- over white. won’t be colourised later on. Touching
ours of the stones in the middle abso- them up would be to start from scratch.
lutely fascinated me. My first memory of And actually that’s very close to the
jewellery comes from Titus le petit lion opals you like so much! You say that, but the chance of a stone

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losing its brilliance is almost zero. Sometimes I like trying to give them a charming when someone likes a colour
There’s little risk; it’s true. But you chance to go it alone, when I think they so much that they actually wear it. It’s
know some stones don’t tolerate light want to have that experience. like a primal desire, innocent and rath-
very well – Kunzite, for example. er touching. I think it’s nice when some-
I often associate your creations with one arrives in an improbably coloured
Jeff Koons gave his name to a stone? a very precise object, because we’ve sweater. Some really have the guts to
Kunzite is a stone whose colour is very talked about this together and I know move beyond the idea of dressing in
close to baby pink – a pink which leans that when you were younger you came black or navy blue, and really go for it.
more towards grey or blue than salmon across that extraordinary neon chan-
or yellow, which when exposed to light delier which dominated the ceiling of Do you yourself live in an apartment
can start to fade. Le Palace, the legendary Paris night- surrounded by colours? Like those art
club of the 1980s. That tangle of col- collectors who gather completely mad
Do you like complex colours? oured tubes formed a sort of dispro- paintings and yet live in a sea of beige…
Absolutely. That’s what I like about portionate ball. There is quite a lot of colour. There are
opals, with several colours being pre- It’s true I often got to see that chande- various Joseph Frank4 prints on several
sent all at once in a single colour and lier! Maybe a memory of it crosses my sofas – they correspond perfectly with
that’s pretty indefinable. It’s never bor- mind, like other colourful memories who I am and what I like.
ing, it changes according to light – it gets that I’ve gathered since, or not.
redder, bluer, and then pulls out more Yes, you’ve been mentioning Joseph
green; all depending on the time of day Do you believe in the esoteric virtues of Frank to me for a while now. What is it
and the ambiance luminosity. Obvi- colour? That green is bad luck… about him that you like?

‘My relationship to colour developed through my

taste buds. Red is, without a doubt, pomegranate.
And green is mint – it’s better than broccoli.’
ously it has a magical aspect. You know Not at all! When I see greens together in It’s like children’s drawings, and I real-
what, I like making colours battle with nature I find it the most beautiful har- ly like that idea of the imaginary flower.
each other. Some people in jewellery mony possible. I don’t believe in ‘new For me it’s the idea of nature in the mind
don’t know that a certain colour doesn’t age’ interpretations of colours, crystals, of a child but seen through the eyes of
go with another. And they end up kill- energies etc… an adult. When I see his face, his quite
ing these poor unsuspecting colours by severe physique, I superimpose them
associating them with much stronger Do you remember a time in your life with this freedom of drawing. I really
colours that take over and crush their when you were deprived of colours? find it amazing.
personality – all when they could be Maybe when I watch a menswear run-
made so interesting if only they’d been way show – in men’s clothing I feel If you were forced to choose between
put with something different. deprived of colours. shape or colour…
I would choose colour, of course.
You however, never hesitate to use lots But with womenswear you can end up
of colours on the same object… thinking of what Jacques Tati said: You must have taken a lot of acid to be
I just try and achieve some kind of har- ‘Too many colours distract the spec- this addicted to colour?
mony, so the colours are happy. I don’t tator.’ When I saw Mary Poppins who jumps
like leaving them in the lurch. I like In an outfit I’m not convinced that col- into chalk drawings by the chimney
them all to be happy. our should come with the clothes. With sweep. You know that scene; when she
jewellery however it’s vital… Jewel- goes to the park? I think it’s with the
When you do suddenly use one single lery is the place for colour. On one- chimney sweep and she has this outfit
colour it becomes a real statement. self it’s difficult, but then again I find it and a little hat with cherries on it…

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Yes, but she’s dressed totally in black Worse than that, greige people… To tell you the truth, I never use a colour
and white! And dusty pink people! Tea rose… chart. I like inventing colours. I can see
Look closer! Underneath her black coat them instantly.
she’s wearing the most wonderful red- A bit Georges Sand7…
and-white dress! There are other people who are bil- Some colours you use – I’m thinking
liards green. It might be women who about the very complex pinks that draw
I’m confusing her with Bécassine5 , work in libraries. Russian librarians. from Parma violet – exist only because
whose dress is green. Some people might be a hard blue, a bit you made sure of it. In fact, you show-
Yes, Bécassine is green! Mary Poppins like an Air France suitcase. ing interest in them saves these colours
wears a red-and-white dress, with lit- from being totally abandoned.
tle booties, a corset and a parasol. But Who in your eyes is an ‘Air France suit- Yes I do take care of rejected colours,
the character I’m thinking of is a chim- case?’ orphaned colours.
ney sweep – or maybe he just works in Oh… you know, those people who work
the street – anyway, he becomes Mary at Bercy? And then there are fuch- You buy colours up a bit like how Ber-
Poppins’ friend. He draws chalk land- sia people. Mainly children, though. nard Tapie8 bought up bankrupt busi-
scapes on the pavement and they jump Those unlucky children who are forced nesses in the 1980s.
right into these colourful landscapes to wear outfits… in fuchsia and purple. I hope they’ll have a more peaceful des-
which then become real. It’s marvel- And a child who is forced into fuchsia tiny with me.
lous! As a little girl I imagined a world and purple is obviously screwed for col-
just like that. I’d jump into imaginary our for life. I’ve also seen them dressed In any case, you’ve liberated quite a
landscapes drawn with chalk! in orange and rust. people by celebrating the virtues of

‘My starting point is vibrant, but maybe over time

my colours will fade. That is part of life, it doesn’t
matter, and they won’t be colourised later on.’
Okay, so no need for any acid then! I It’s like a sort of Wizard of Oz gone colour – by using them a lot, and in
only mentioned it because delirium wrong – what can anyone dressed in such joyful ways. You’ve done them a
is often linked to colour which has rust do? favour, a bit like when Saint Laurent
euphoric virtues. Get undressed straight away! Take mixed pink with red…
Apparently you see pink elephants… off that dreadful sweater, that awful It should be understood there’s nothing
I’ve long used colour for its euphoric down jacket! And if possible do it in an wrong with using colour. It has an effect
virtues but I’ve kept my distance. entrance hall. Yet there are some peo- on people that’s very liberating and as
ple who manage to freely associate col- we said earlier, a bit euphoric.
Are there any colours you haven’t ours very well, they stand by it and it’s
experimented with, perhaps because great. On others however… that shock- Do you think you learnt that from
there are no existing stones that do ing pink down jacket, let’s not go there. someone in particular? Like when you
them justice? worked at Chanel maybe?
Neon shades are difficult to find. The I’ve noticed that colour often material- No, I think mainly it’s because when I
Paraiba tourmaline6 is verging on a ises around you in the shape of butter- was a child I was very obsessed with col-
neon turquoise; it’s the one that looks flies. There are huge numbers of them our. As I said, I associated colour with
the most fake. You’ve also got acid on the wall in your office, mainly blue. taste. I’m thinking in particular of this
greens, grass greens, but, bizarrely, no I love the idea that nature can produce lady whose name was Irène – she was
neon green – we’re missing neon green the colours of opals. a florist and her husband was Barbara
in life in general. We’re missing neon Hutton’s chauffeur. Irène wore a lot
people! There are so many grey people, Are butterflies like your Pantone col- of jade, gifts that Barbara Hutton had
and beige people… our chart? given her. Whenever my mother took

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me to see her, I was fascinated by her always dressed in black in fact. Black no mistake; colours make me think of
countless jade green brooches; sud- sweater and pencil skirt. I think I also eras just as much as people. I remem-
denly I imagined they were made from liked the idea that she had no idea how ber a particular car journey when I got
marzipan. I also remember Michèle, a much pleasure I gleaned from her jew- ill. That day I was wearing a grass green
perfumier who all year long wore a pill- els and gestures. I liked watching, bag: I’ve never looked at a green leath-
box hat in leopard fur, and whose finger like a voyeur. I didn’t want to be spo- er handbag since. I was also ill the day
nails were bright red – she’d wrap up lit- ken to; I wanted to enjoy it with total I wore sky blue earrings: aquamarine
tle parcels and I’d see her scarlet nails concentration. always brings back that memory.
performing this pretty little ballet. I
remember she also wore a bracelet with I’ve noticed how often you associate Do you think you’ve reached the limit
gold charms and Buddhas in hard stone. colour with people when you talk about of your possibilities with colour?
The sound of that jewellery with those them – more than with situations or Let’s just say I’ve always felt very free.
perfectly manicured little hands folding landscapes. If I say ‘yellow’ you might Have I reached the limit? I don’t know,
white paper… I could spend hours, still not think of the sun but an actual per- but if nothing else I’ve gone all out, I’ve
today, watching that. son, who you know well, or who you never held back. Why would I have done
might remember from long ago… anything else?
An image of Endora [the mother in the Yellow can make me think of Winnie
TV show Bewitched] has just flashed the Pooh. That’s how I like gold to be; And to fit in with an era? To satisfy a
through my mind… when it reminds me of acacia honey. In clientele?
Exactly! I loved Endora, and the col- those boxes of Caran d’Ache there used Well no, actually. I hate the idea of fit-
ours of her eye shadow! Turquoise, lav- to be bronze colours! I love the word ting in with an era, I hate the idea of
ender, aqua… And that red hair. All ‘mordoré’ [bronze]: it shimmers with being ‘on trend’ and I hate the idea of
drawn together with black eyeliner. promise. It’s very much an ‘80s colour: doing what should be done. That just
That connection between pastels and a time that was sympathetic in terms of isn’t me. I don’t know how to be any
black is very interesting. Michèle was colour and no one doubted it. Yes, make other way.

1. Aglaé et Sidonie was a 1960s French er who founded the Vienna School of the first female protagonist in the his- Aurore Dupin (1804-1876). In addi-
animated television show developed Architecture with Oskar Strand in the tory of comics. tion to a number of novels which draw
by André Joanny. The series, adapted early 1900s, and designed a number of on her childhood experiences of the
from a story by Guylaisne, comprised Austria’s early social housing estates. 6. Tourmaline is a semi-precious stone countryside, Sand is known for her af-
of 65 five-minute episodes created us- Having emigrated to Sweden in 1933, composed of a trigonal crystalline fair with the composer Chopin, which
ing stop-frame animation. Frank became the most prominent de- structure that was used by chemists she describes in her book A Winter In
signer of the Stockholm design firm in the 19 th century to polarise light. Majorca. Her portrait appears on the
2. Coucoulina was a French ice cream Svenskt Tenn, who continue to sell his Tourmaline comes in a variety of col- French 50 cent postage stamp against
brand popular in the 1970s. furniture, haberdashery and cutlery ours, of which the blue and green hues a pink rose background.
to this day. of Paraiba tourmaline are amongst
3. Charles Perrault (1628-1703) was a the rarest. First discovered by min- 8. Bernard Tapie was a notorious
French writer and the author of Lit- 5. Bécassine is a French comic strip ers in 1889, Paraiba tourmaline takes French businessman and politician
tle Red Riding Hood, Cinderella, Puss named after its heroine, a young Bre- its name from the Northeast Brazil- who served as a minister under Fran-
in Boots and Sleeping Beauty – works ton housemaid, usually depicted wear- ian state of Paraiba, whose high prev- çois Mitterrand. He was the owner of
derived from existing folk stories, and ing a green dress with a white lace alence of copper in the earth deter- cycling team La Vie Claire and the
which gave birth to a new literary gen- coiffe and clog – a pastiche of tradi- mines shades of blue and green in the Olympique de Marseille football club.
re: the fairytale. tional Breton peasant costume. The stone. In 1997, he served six months in prison
first strip was published in 1905 in the for match-fixing. Shortly after, he lost
4. Joseph Frank (1885-1967) was an girl’s magazine La Semaine de Suzette, 7. George Sand is the pseudonym of his fortune and later recreated himself
Austrian architect, artist and design- and as such, Bécassine is considered the French writer Amantine-Lucile- as a television personality.

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The legendary... Valentino

‘I was drugged
by this sort
of life.’
Mr Valentino on 45 years of seeing red.

By Hans Ulrich Obrist

Photographs by Zoë Ghertner
Styling by Camille Bidault-Waddington

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The legendary... Valentino

A figurehead of fashion aristocracy, it’s leather companies, the first brand to they were like a dream. Automatically, Did you know Basquiat personally? beautiful painting of his. And of course, [collecting] maybe a little late. Before
easy to forget that behind the immacu- publicly collaborate with an artist in a without any reason, I just had a passion I met him because he came to my shows: I love Andy [Warhol] because I met him I always talked about a piece of furni-
lately groomed, bespoke-suited veneer, marketing campaign (the artist being for designing. I was very good at design he was in love with a girl who was doing and we used to see each other a lot. He ture, china, or lots of beautiful objects
Valentino Garavani was once a young Andy Warhol, no less), the first fashion at school, and so I started to make some my collection, and he came with her. He also did my portrait. because I am crazy for beauty like this
couturier struggling to find his way on designer to be given a retrospective at fashion drawings, without any particu- was sitting in a corridor of the fashion – but when I started to think about art,
his return to Rome in 1960 after a stint New York’s Metropolitan Museum of lar style. I did some marionettes, but my house and he fell asleep – but you know How was it with Andy and you? Can I started very strongly.
as an apprentice to Jean Dessès and Art. And to look forward, at his lega- big relaxation was just to draw dresses. the most amazing thing is that we all left you tell me about this?
Guy Laroche in Paris. The year Fellini cy continued today by Valentino’s crea- I didn’t have anything else on my mind, him there, and he stayed all night; they He was very nice all the time with me, You capture beauty and the essence
filmed La Dolce Vita was a fateful one tive directors Maria Grazia Chiuri and just dresses, beauty, films, and very locked him in the fashion house. He was he invited me to the Factory many of beauty when you make clothes; but
for Valentino – as not only did Rome Pier Paolo Piccioli. Or, he could just well dressed beautiful ladies. I natural- a charming, charming guy and very sad- times, and I was admiring all the paint- how can one define beauty?
become a destination for the interna- sit back, relax and gaze upon the vast ly went in that direction: I told my par- ly, he died very young. ings on the floor – you had to be careful It is very difficult for me to explain this,
tional glitterati, delivering the great art collection he has amassed in homes ents that I didn’t want to go on studying not to step on them. He was a charming because I honestly think it is just some-
and the good to the doors of his atel- around the world; like the one in Lon- Latin and Greek and would love to be a Did you collect his paintings in the person with lots of intriguing ways to thing that I learnt automatically. I woke
ier – it was the year he met the archi- don’s Holland Park with its late Picas- fashion designer. 1980s? talk. He was very, very nice. up one day and my eyes just went to the
tecture student Giancarlo Giammetti. sos and works by Jean-Michel Basquiat No, no, his paintings I collected 15 years corner or the panel or the house or the
It was a meeting of minds, and spirits, and Damien Hirst, where he is joined You have also mentioned that colour ago, ten years ago. How did he do your portrait? street and could see something that was
that would form one of the most signifi- by the Swiss curator Hans Ulrich Obrist was an early inspiration. He asked me in 1970-something. He beautiful. It is very difficult to explain in
cant professional and personal partner- to discuss the search for perfection, That started later. Red was the first col- They are amazing. There are so many took a Polaroid: he was constantly tak- words. Also these days, I just want to fill
ships in fashion: one that would last for the colour red, and how he really feels our to have a big impact on me. I had connections between fashion and art; ing Polaroids, and he said ‘I am mak- my eyes with beauty. I want to see beau-
a lifetime. about being called the “last emperor” of seen several things in red and I was fas- Yves Saint Laurent with the Mondri- ing a portrait’, and he did four of them. tiful flowers, beautiful objects, beauti-
Recognising fashion’s future was in Roman glamour. cinated with this colour. Later on I put an dresses, Chanel – not very much has But you know strangely enough, when ful human beings – beautiful everything.

‘I am crazy about beauty. To be in a room where ‘Automatically when you see a beautiful painting
you look around and you see so many beautiful with beautiful colours — a Picasso or a Basquiat —
people and things, gives you force and strength.’ you try and put it in your collection.’
ready-to-wear, Giammetti structured a Hans Ulrich Obrist: So let’s start at the it in my collection, and I realised then been written about your connection one of his assistants said the portraits That now leads us to the Valentino
series of manufacturing deals that laid beginning, how it all started and if you that red is one of the most becoming with the arts, and I thought it would were ready, I was not crazy about them. woman…
the foundations of the brand’s inter- had an epiphany which brought you to colours… be interesting to talk a little more… So And I said let me think about it, and I I always used very, very good models.
national expansion, while Garavani fashion because as far as I understand you took details of the paintings and didn’t buy it right away. I bought it sev- I was very choosy when the girls would
focused on creating beautiful clothes it was cinema… Because red is the strongest colour. As put them in the clothes? eral years after – two were available and come to the fashion house, but I was just
whose simplicity belies the perfection Valentino Garavani: Yes cinema, I’ve Etel Adnan1 says, in a painting, red is Yes, I did that with little short dresses two were in the museum in Chicago, I attracted by beauty and I was design-
of their cut. Timeless elegance, impec- always had this passion for beautiful always the colour that stands out… for cocktail time, and I did some shirts think. So I have two, which are here by ing for that. For instance, one of the
cable taste, cinematic glamour – such dresses from when I was a little child. Red was the first colour to stand out. with the print. the way. last ones is a big star, and that is Gisele
was Garavani’s talent, that trying to My cousins used to dress very, very Then with age and a different approach, [Bündchen]. When I saw her for the first
define Valentino in these terms today well, and every time they wore an even- I started to love art very much. My What is it that attracts you to Basquiat? And what about the connection to soci- time, I thought she was one of the most
is an exercise in tautology for the house, ing gown, I was there staring at them. first things were the [Lucio] Fontana2 His use of colour is the strongest out of ety? Because I am interested in how art beautiful women in the world. When
and its relationships with some of the I was six or seven years old, not more, and the [Arnaldo] Pomodoro3 sculp- all those figures. He has always fasci- and fashion can go beyond the realm you are around beauty, you are fasci-
most iconic personalities of the past six- and then I automatically grew interest- ture. And the first big thing I bought nated me. I am very happy because with of aesthetics because it goes into soci- nated by it and you enjoy to see it and
ty years have done as much, if not more, ed in the movies. I was not supposed to was a Picasso with beautiful colours. time he has become one of the most ety… How do you see that? participate in it. To be in a room where
to define these visions of beauty as any see them, but I had an older sister whose Automatically when you see a beauti- important artists of the 20th century. Oh my gosh, I have met so many peo- you look around and you see so many
medium or imagination. boyfriend would take her to the cinema, ful painting, a Picasso or a Basquiat, ple and been involved with many, beautiful things is not only enjoyable –
Today, seven years after he ‘retired’ so she used the excuse of bringing me you try and put it into your collection – As well as Picasso and Basquiat… Are many occasions. When I was a young it also gives people lots of force, lots of
at the age of 75, Garavani can look back along as somebody who could keep an especially Basquiat because I did a col- there other artists? boy in fashion I had already been to strength, from looking at them.
on his 45-year career, and marvel at its eye on her. So film, silver screen, beau- lection a not very long time ago in the I love [Willem] de Kooning; I love Peter many beautiful homes and saw beau-
many firsts for fashion; the first brand tiful films with beautiful stars wearing 1990s where I showed several Basquiat Doig very, very much. I love [Ger- tiful paintings. This was a dream. But Do you think this idea of aesthetic per-
to license its name to perfume and beautiful dresses; for me at that time, details in the dresses. hard] Richter very much – I have a very you know, I am not upset that I started fection is achievable? Is there such a

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The legendary... Valentino

thing as perfect beauty? Have your drawings ever been pub- It is non-stop, 24 hours… about Rome in the 1950s and early ‘60s. guys and girls doing the same job – and Can you tell me about your debut at the
In fashion? Firstly, I think I am speak- lished? I have to admit that after Venice, after This is an incredible moment, such an automatically this was a big fascina- Pitti Palace 6 in 1962?
ing for myself and for other designers; No, I do it for myself. When I stopped Toronto and then the Metropolitan – I amazing one that even artists like Cy tion because I loved it so deeply. After I was there but I was not so well known
you have to believe in what you do and designing, I did a big gala for the New did lots of tours – I started to like the Twombly and [Robert] Rauschenberg one year I had the chance to go to Jean at the time – they put me on the last day
what you draw. You have to understand York City Ballet where I made cos- documentary. came to Rome – what was it about the Dessès, and he was – with Fath and and at the last hour so I was quite, not
what it is when you do a drawing and tumes for the ballet, and I had this huge city then? Balmain and Dior – one of the biggest sad, but quite upset. I had the hugest
you look at a drawing and you say, this is evening where they gave a standing In the film there is a very big role played We were involved because we were very designers at that time. He was Greek chance with this collection but I thought
a dress that is going to be on the runway ovation for the clothes that I made. So I by Giancarlo Giammetti3 . It would be close with a lady who was the directrice originally. I stayed working with him for no one would stay because it was so late,
for my future collection. I have always draw automatically ballet things. It was interesting to hear about your relation- of the Marlborough Gallery. We sold five years. but it was the opposite; all the buyers
been quite lucky because I always the second time, just after I stopping ship with Giancarlo… the first Fontana, the first sculpture of stayed and said, ‘This is a new person,
looked at my drawings and said this is working, that I did the Vienna ballet. I Giancarlo was close to me, he would Pomodoro; we sold lots of little things What did you learn from him? let’s see what he does’. And I had huge
going to be extraordinary in my shows, did lots of exhibitions, everywhere, and organise the collection, organise the and we were attracted by this. But mon- What I learned from him was to per- success. They bought even though it
and automatically I was very careful also the documentary they made about layout of pictures in magazines, the ey was not such a big drive, though I did fect my drawings. I learned from look- was after 11.30 at night; they bought
to choose the most beautiful materi- me – do you know about this? fashion shows. He did a lot and gave me buy some Fontana[s], some sculptures ing at the collections. Later on, after numerous things. The following year,
als, because you know they go togeth- the possibility to work very calmly and that I have today and that I am very hap- four years, he asked me to go to the stu- they gave me the right time on the right
er. For a beautiful drawing you need a What did you think about it, because it without shocks. I was locked in my stu- py to have because they touch the roof. dio privately when he was making the day in the right room. But I have to tell
beautiful material, you need the beau- was called The Last Emperor… dio, drawing, and doing fittings. I try to They are so amazing for what they cost collections, so I breathed in the atmos- you, I was very lucky. Thank god, I have
tiful woman who is wearing this and the I have to tell you, that when they start- love my clothes as much as possible. today, you wouldn’t believe it. phere of what to do when you do a col- to thank life and the people in my life,
beautiful décor for when you show this ed to film all my life and all of my sto- lection. After a little while I moved everyone and everything, because I was
on the runway – the runway has to be ry and everything, it was non-stop, and So you were free. Why do you think that Rome was so to Guy Laroche, from him I learned a extremely lucky and I have to tell you
beautiful; the atmosphere, the music stupidly I didn’t pay attention because Exactly. amazing then, so magnetic? lot and after two years I learnt maybe something; I didn’t meet deception.

‘I don’t think you can create beautiful, subtle, ‘After Mrs Kennedy bought that dress, we sold the
full of charm drawings on a computer. But what do same model 30 times! Selling one couture dress
I know? I still love to have a telephone with holes in.’ 30 times is like selling 30 Basquiats in one second.’
– there are so many things involved all I was working and doing fittings and I am very interested in the magical Well Rome is a beautiful city. There is everything – and thought, why not go So you have no regrets, there are no
around you. being taken from my job constantly – moments of cities, and there was clear- also something magical with this city – back to Rome and open my own fash- unrealised projects?
and of course I remembered I always ly a magical moment in Rome in the all the people used to go there to watch ion house? No, no, no, everything went well and I
Do you still draw? had somebody behind my shoulders, 1950s because there was Fellini… everything, the museums – you have was extremely happy. I was somebody
Oh yes all the time. All the time. It is but I didn’t give lots of importance to it, This was around the time of the open- to understand that in Italy we have the In the early 1960s in Rome you became who was designing lots of collections –
one of the things I like the most with you understand? Finally, they did lots of ing of my fashion house, my debut – I best museums in the world, though they very famous for your red dresses, and I at one point I was doing ten collections
design. work and in the end when I saw the film was drugged by this sort of life. I was are not very brilliantly kept… am interested in this because in art we per year and that was very important.
in New York, I was not crazy about it. extremely young. You have to under- talk about Klein Blue5, and with you we But you know, I was quite easy going,
Because with the computer we are los- stand that at that moment, to be 26 and But you were very prepared to start talk about a Valentino red… and I remember on a Friday, I was
ing handwriting. And the title, who chose that? Was it to have on your shoulders a huge fash- because you had amazing teachers and I do not want to say much about this like, ‘Let’s take a day off’. And then on
Yes, but with a computer I don’t know you? ion house with lots of workers and this mentors; Balenciaga, Jacques Fath, because it is too much about me – but the Monday I had to start work on my
if you can do a beautiful, subtle, full of No, they chose that. I was not so crazy and that: it was a big thing. But I was Guy Laroche… yes I came out with this Valentino red, show, but that was no problem: I would
charm, drawing. I don’t know. I am not about it, but after the first evening when very happy and I went on and on, and in Yes, but this was when I was 17. and I loved it so much because I told sit down at my table and start to draw,
capable to do anything. I love to have a we presented the documentary for the 1968 I had a huge success and my name a lady when she dressed in red that if and I put together my collection without
telephone with the holes because I am gala of the second night in Venice to a went around the world. Can you tell me what you learnt from she arrived at a party, all the people any anguish. It was very easy and I was
not capable of using anything. huge, huge crowd, they gave a standing them? are already there will see something extremely happy.
ovation at the end of the film. So it was in ‘68 that it all exploded? I was 15 when I arrived in Paris. When amazing in her. If you do the right red it
Do you still draw every day? Yes with the White Collection 4. I was 18 I went to the academy for the touches everybody. In a way your moment of internation-
Every day, because I absolutely love to There is something very interesting Chambre Syndicale de la Couture, al fame arrived in 1968 with the White
draw. With a good pen I can do it very, about it; it is very Andy Warhol, this Before we talk about the White Col- the school where I learnt to draw, and So it is bright shade? Collection – it went completely global.
very fast, in five seconds. idea that everything gets documented. lection, I wanted to ask you a bit more where I was in touch with all the other Yes, a very bright red, a little orangey. Do you remember the day you came up

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with the White Collection? Was there what she was wearing in the press when and I was down, and she would come the message from my secretary saying I remember the show with the dune always big admirers of mine, and they
an epiphany? she married [Aristotle] Onassis, and all down. She would come for New Year’s Mrs Taylor had called from the Grand landscape… still are, and I go to see the shows, and
The White Collection is something that the newspapers called to ask whether it Eve for dinner. Hotel, and she asked if you can have Ah yes, I was fighting with Giancarlo we are very, very close.
came to me, and I said I had to show- was me who made the dress, and I said lunch with her in two days at 12. So I was about this one, which you see in the
case something white – I took my ideas I had no idea. And then they said, ‘Ah, Do you remember any special dresses like, ‘Oh my gosh, after so many years, film. But then afterwards I loved it – but So it was a happy moment for you when
and I said I am going to do almost the but we know she was in New York and you made for Elizabeth Taylor? suddenly she’s calling me again’ – and as that’s fashion… they took over?
whole end of the show in just white. And she ordered a creamy coloured dress, it Oh my god, so many. From the White she was kissing me like I had only seen Oh yes, very happy. Absolutely.
nobody was expecting to see a white must be you!’ They knew before me that Collection I made a dress with ostrich her three days before. So we became The fashion industry has changed
collection. It was a big, big success and she was wearing that fabulous dress. feathers which she wore for a huge, huge Elizabeth and Valentino, and she told throughout different moments of your In relation to art and fashion, I was
it was the best moment of my life. And I have to say that after Mrs Kenne- party for the film Spartacus. And she me she was invited by the Rothschild career – I was wondering if you could wondering if you could tell me a little
dy bought this dress, we sold the same had this dress with a white satin coat on family to a big ball in Paris, and I made talk about that change, and how fash- bit about your Accademia Valentino
As the artist Absalon often told me; model in the collection 30 times! In top. And at a certain point — this was the famous black dress that was photo- ion has become so much bigger? How in Rome, which is a space for exhibi-
white has very different meaning in the high fashion, selling one dress 30 times really at the very beginning — I said graphed by [Richard] Avedon. Finally, do you feel about it now? tions…
West than in the East. What did it mean is like an exhibition selling 30 Basqui- Elizabeth, no Mrs Taylor, may I have a a few years ago, there was the big sale I feel I am one of the luckiest people in It was a part of a Roman palazzo, and
to you? And how does red fit into that? ats in one second. picture taken with you? And she said, of all her dresses and her jewellery, and the world. I have to admit it, and also to I have to tell you that we did a beauti-
In 1968 when I did the White Collection, ‘Oh yes, of course’. And I went close that dress was sold for a very big sum of thank Giancarlo Giammetti because he ful thing with this unbelievable space.
I didn’t have any red dresses. I started And what about Audrey Hepburn, to her and they took the picture, and money. Oh, my dear, I could go on until always gave me the time to concentrate Straight away I did an exhibition with
them immediately afterwards… no I am because in interviews you often men- she said, ‘You must give me one dress tomorrow morning! and think about my creations; he nev- the amazing Swiss artist, Balthus.
wrong, red is earlier. One of the dresses tion her? for free’. And I said, ‘Yes of course, er said to me, ‘You cannot use sable, or
that did a tour of the world and could be Audrey became a great friend of mine, of course’. Two days later, she arrived I have one more question about dis- seal’, you know? I did what I wanted, What would be your advice to a young
worn right now, I did it in 1961. because at a certain point she left there in the middle of the fashion show play, because as well as clothes you are all of the time, with everything. At that fashion designer in 2015?

‘I told the lady that if she arrived at a party dressed ‘Elizabeth Taylor came up to me during the show
in red, people would see something amazing in her. and said, ‘I have come to choose my dress.’ I showed
If you do the right red, it touches everybody.’ her a few things and she chose the most expensive!’
At your great 45th anniversary show 7 behind all the life that she had in Amer- before we had started – all the ladies very big on display and how to present moment I remember I used cashmere My advice would be, I don’t know if it
you presented your most legendary ica when she married an Italian doctor. were in two big rooms, and they were the garments on a runway, in exhibi- material by the 100 yard, but now peo- fits a lot with today… because before, I
dresses, and I was wondering if you And she used to really draw. She was all so happy to see Elizabeth Taylor – tions and so on… ple do this less and less because the cost would naturally choose the most amaz-
could possibly talk about one or two of the biggest customer of Givenchy, but and she came and said, ‘I have come to I mean, we always try to make the run- is so amazingly high. ing materials. I didn’t follow the speed-
your favourites? then she became one of the biggest cus- choose my dress.’ way appear as spectacular as possible. iness of the working room to make the
Oh my gosh, there are so many, it is tomers of Valentino. We became very At the beginning the runway was very How do you feel about this idea now clothes so quickly, and now everything
very difficult… I was one of the first to good friends, she was so sweet; one of Amazing. clean with beautiful girls showing the of how fashion houses are brands? As has to go so fast. Sometimes, creative-
start using animal print; the zebra, the the sweetest I ever met. Oh my god, I I had the new collection, and I showed clothes. But after that, from about 1975, it is very different from art and archi- ly speaking, that can be wrong. Every-
leopard, the giraffe – and I have all the remember off by heart what I did for her a few things and she chose the most we started to give the runway some col- tecture: when an artist or an architect thing used to be made with lots of love
dresses of that moment and they are in her – she wore so many amazing piec- expensive one! our and amazing lighting – also because stops, the studio usually stops – but in and lots of time – it was a different way
exhibitions around the world all of the es, amazing pyjamas and a beautiful in the 1980s, and the ‘90s, we had the fashion, the brand continues for a long to work back then.
time. They are very popular now, too. organza dress all in white. I remember Which was one it? most amazing girls in the world; we time. How do you feel about that and
everything I did for her. I have so many It was a coat in brown velvet with zebra had the top, top, top models and it was about Maria Grazia Chiuri and Pier What about your little dogs?
Maybe we could talk about the dresses memories of her, ahhh… around, and a dress in pale, pale green extraordinary. I remember my last col- Paolo Piccioli [current Creative Direc- I love them. You know, I didn’t sleep
you did for Mrs Kennedy? with some embroidery. It was very lection in 2008: the floor was lit up with tors of Valentino]? last night because she was coughing
They were from the White Collection. Did you ever write an autobiography? expensive! So I made it for her and we the most extraordinary light, I did the I love them, because I trained them. all night and I was so worried, and now
I had this almost white, creamy dress No, but many have been written about became very close friends. These were room in all white and I did gigantic pic- They were with me almost 13 years, a today, finally, she is feeling better. But
in which I was automatically thinking me. Also, one very close friend, who my early days. I didn’t then see her for tures like the Basquiats with the most long, long time in fashion. They were she is always close to me. Tomorrow I
of Mrs Kennedy, and she bought that marked me a lot in my life, was Eliza- several years, until finally one day she important clothes and the most impor- in my office during the fittings and am going to Qatar and I have to leave
dress one summer in the month of Sep- beth Taylor. She used to come to the appeared – and of course by then I had tant people in my career, all like a pri- during the collection they were there. her – I cannot take her with me and nor-
tember, or October. They announced chalet in Gstaad because she was up become Valentino – and one day I got vate home. This was extraordinary. They learned a lot and I think they were mally I take her everywhere. I have two

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more in France and they normally trav- puppies, two girls and two boys. The access from anywhere?
el with me everywhere as well. two boys died last year, and the two girls I started it with the 35th anniversary
are now almost 15 years old. when we exhibited all my drawings,
And they cannot come on the trip with everything that I did, all the articles, all
you? What is this type of dog called? the drawings that I made for very well-
No, they cannot. So I am sad and crazy It is a pug! I always have pugs, all of my known princesses or a very well know
because I need her. life. I love all animals. actresses, everything was there. And
so this is a sort of Valentino drawing
But in the film there are so many… One very last question, can you tell me museum.
I know. But they die – in the film there about the Valentino Virtual Museum
were six; I had the mother and four and the digital archive, which you can Thank you so much.

1. Etel Adnan is a Lebanese-Amer- generation, and the transformation much of 1960s fashion, in 1968, Val- became known for its textiles and tai-
ican poet, writer, novelist and visu- of their settings. He is best known for entino presented a “no-colour collec- lors in the years following the Second
al artist who resides between Paris his Sphere Within Sphere series of ar- tion” of couture rendered in cream, World War, in 1951 the palace hosted
and California. Adnan is one of the chitectonic arrangements which can white and ivory hues. Celebrated its first fashion show in the Sala Bian-
leading voices in contemporary Arab be found in locations as diverse as the for garments such as the now iconic ca, and by 1955 “Pitti” had become the
American literature with works pub- United Nations in New York, and the white-fringed mini dress, and the pale largest trade fair in Europe with 500
lished in over ten languages. Adnan’s Tehran Museum of Contemporary Art cream lace bodice and pleated skirt buyers and 200 journalists in attend-
brightly coloured abstract paintings in Iran. In 1999 he founded the Fon- worn by Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, ance, giving credence to the Made In
have been exhibited at the Whitney dazione Arnaldo Pomodoro in Milan the collection also debuted the signa- Italy label. The success of the fair gave
Museum of American Art and White that has since hosted exhibitions by ture “V” trademark of the house. In birth to the Pitti Immagine organisa-
Cube gallery, and she has received nu- artists such as Jannis Kounellis, Lucio 2014, Creative Directors Maria Gra- tion of fashion shows and trade fairs
merous awards for her contribution Fontana and Robert Rauschenberg. zia Chiuri and Pier Paolo Piccioli un- in Florence and Milan across the fields
to culture, including France’s highest veiled a one-off, all-white Valenti- of mens, womens, childrenswear – in
cultural honour, the Ordre de Cheva- 3. Soon after meeting Valentino, Gi- no haute couture collection titled Sa- addition to food, wine and wellness –
lier des Arts et des Lettres in 2014. ancarlo Giammetti abandoned his la Bianca 945 in homage to Garava- throughout the year. Today, Pitti Im-
studies at Rome’s Universitá di Ar- ni’s 1968 collection to inaugurate the magine Uomo, held every January and
2. Lucio Fontana (1899–1968) was chitettura to help build the House of brand’s largest global flagship store on June in Florence, is widely regarded as
an Italian painter, sculptor and the- Valentino. His structuring of the com- Fifth Avenue, New York. one of the most important exhibitions
orist who collaborated with a num- pany, maximising the ‘V’ logo, and the of menswear in the industry.
ber of architects in the rebuilding of value licensing deals – from fragrance 5. Developed by the French artist
Milan after the Second World War. and leather, to furniture and cars – Yves Klein (1928–1962), International 7. In 2007 Giammetti and Garava-
As the founder of Spatialism, an art could bring to Valentino, were instru- Klein Blue is a shade of deep blue that ni celebrated 45 years of Valentino
movement which sought to unite art mental in establishing the brand as a became a signature motif across the and their intended retirement the fol-
and science in projecting colours and business attractive to investors. Giam- artist’s paintings, furniture and works lowing year by holding what they de-
forms into real spaces using the new metti and Garavani were lovers for the of performance art (where he often scribed as “the largest and most lav-
technologies available in the post-war first decade after they met, and con- painted model’s bodies in the hue and ish event in the history of fashion”: a
period, Fontana is best known for his sider one another today as family. To- had them walk and roll across blank three-day-long series of parties, and a
Tagli (“slash”) paintings of the 1950s, gether, they have been dubbed “the canvases). Patented in 1960, the clos- haute couture show in Rome, attend-
in which he cut into paper or oil paint- kings of high living” – as not only did est pantone approximation is #286c, ed by the great and the good. A ret-
ed canvases in order to foreground the they know how to make money, they a 96 percent match to International rospective of Valentino’s career ran
negative space behind them. knew how to spend it. In 2012, Valen- Klein Blue. concurrently at the city’s Ara Pacis
tino SpA was sold to Mayhoola for In- Museum, attracting over 200,000 visi-
3. Arnaldo Pomodoro is an Italian art- vestments Spc, a company owned by 6. The Palazzo Pitti is a vast Renais- tors, and Taschen published a multi-
ist known for his engagement with ge- the royal family of Qatar, for a report- sance palace in Florence which was volume anthology of the archives. Of
ometric shapes such as the column, ed €600 million. the former residence of the Dukes of his decision to retire, Valentino Gara-
cube, pyramid, sphere and disc. Ren- Tuscany, and later, King Victor Em- vani stated that he saw the right time
dered in bronze, his sculptures explore 4. Going against the decadent – even manuel III, who donated the build- to leave the party was “when the room
notions of travel, self-destruction, re- garish – colour palettes that defined ing to the public in 1919. As Florence is still full.” Autumn/Winter 2002-2003

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Autumn/Winter 2005-2006 Spring/Summer 2002

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The legendary... Valentino

Spring/Summer 2007 Autumn/Winter 2002-2003

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The legendary... Valentino

Autumn/Winter 2000-2001 Spring/Summer 1985

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The legendary... Valentino

Spring/Summer 1988 Spring/Summer 2006

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154
The legendary...

Autumn/Winter 2004-2005
Models: Helena Severin c/o Viva London and Zoé. Hair: Holli Smith c/o Total Management. Make-up: Sarai Fiszel c/o Jedroot. Photography Assistance: Corentin Thevenet.
Styling Assistance: Marie Déhé and Marion Jolivet. Set Design: Valérie Weil. Production by Guillaume Hery at Total Management.

Dress: Autumn/Winter 1996-1997

Feather jacket: Autumn/Winter 2004-2005

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Valentino
In the words of... Cathy Horyn

‘You just have

to say what
you think.’
Cathy Horyn on all the news that’s fit to print.

By Jonathan Wingfield
Photographs by Juergen Teller

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In the words of... Cathy Horyn

Fashion in 2015 is a wonderfully top- critical eye and unique voice while oth- inflammatory comments will no doubt What was he writing about? Was New York a fascination for you? singer but she got sick and her voice
sy-turvy place to be. With more design- ers, principally those who’d been on become extracted, headlined and sen- Cops and robbers; he covered execu- Completely. I’ve written about this got wrecked. So she learned to write
ers, more brands, more media attention, the receiving end of a legendary Horyn sationalised on social media. Nonethe- tions at the Ohio penitentiary. I had his before, the eight o’clock train to New by the ‘sound of word’, which is some-
more product, and more consumers slap-down, possibly heaved a huge sigh less, on the subject of fashion in 2015, scrapbook for a long time but I lost it York stopping through Coshocton, thing I very much believe in. So that and
than ever before, it’s now a global indus- of relief. we feel it offers, to borrow the New York in a move somewhere. He was a really Ohio. My parents were great in that they being accurate were important lessons I
try generating sums of money with more But with fashion becoming more Times’ maxim, “All the News That’s Fit good writer, and a really good editor; encouraged my brother and I to leave; learnt from her.
digits than we know what to do with. newsworthy than ever before, it seemed to Print.” he wrote in that sort of punchy police there was just no doubt that you were
In the midst of all this expansion and inevitable that Cathy Horyn’s byline beat style. supposed to leave Coshocton. And I Who was the other woman you worked
acceleration, we felt it was worthwhile would return to the fore. This past sea- Part One couldn’t wait to be on my way. I want- for?
trying to make some sense out of the son was her first as critic-at-large for From Coshocton to the Times What advice did he give you when it ed to go to the University of Carolina, A very wealthy lady called Mary Loeb,
hyperbole. Cue Cathy Horyn. The Cut, New York magazine’s live- came to writing? Chapel Hill; they have a really good who lived at No. 2, Sutton Place. Her
As perhaps fashion’s single most ly online fashion platform, and once As a girl were you a bedroom fashion- He read my first general news stories, in journalism program there. All the great husband – who was long gone by then
authoritative (and opinionated) jour- again, her dispatches from the shows ista, cutting out pages of Vogue and the early ‘80s, and he used to say, ‘As an journalists and modern editors of the – had been a banker or something, and
nalistic voice, her 30-year newspaper have proven as thought-provoking as sticking them on your walls? Or were exercise, you should reduce your copy New York Times came from the South. was first cousins to Peggy Guggenheim.
and magazine career has been anchored they are polarising. you more of the bookish type? by 50 percent, just to see if you can.’ I Mary was great: she had gone blind in
in old-school reporting, a profound Back in February, the day before she Fashion was of no interest to me what- always thought that was a good idea. Is that a personality thing? her later years, so I’d spend the week-
understanding of the creative process, would formally return to New York soever, even though my mother took I don’t know, maybe there were just ends with her, both of us smoking Mar-
and an unerring ability to cut through fashion week, Cathy generously invit- Vogue and W. I grew up in a little town Did you find yourself romanticis- better stories down there, maybe they lboros and drinking Diet Coke, and
the industry’s smoke and mirrors. ed System over to her snow-clad, Hud- in Ohio, the tomboy type, who had ing being a reporter because of your were quiet and persevering, maybe they me reading things like Lolita and all of
After tenures at the Washington Post son Valley home for lunch (homemade horses and loved hanging out with father? were good at listening, not so aggres- [Norman] Mailer’s books to her, which
and then Vanity Fair, it was Horyn’s 15 soup followed by gingerbread) and a her friends. I have a great photograph That whole romance of being a for- sive, maybe they were smart but didn’t she loved.

‘Fashion was of no interest to me whatsoever, even ‘My father had been a newspaper reporter:
though my mother took Vogue and W. I grew up he covered the police beat, the cops and robbers,
in a little town in Ohio, the tomboy type.’ public executions at the Ohio penitentiary…’
years as the New York Times’ chief chat about her life, career and today’s of me and my two friends, Peggy and eign correspondent never really meant let on. The surface was more modest. And she paid you to do that?
fashion critic that provided her with the fashion landscape. Jane, when we were about six years old. that much to me; I just wanted to be on Very well paid. She would tell me these
platform to observe, judge and some- Several hours later, what emerges We’re already looking like the wom- newspapers. I got on that track at a pret- So you studied in the South. great stories about Peggy Guggenhe-
times publically scrap with fashion’s isn’t so much a summary of her well- en we would later become: Peggy was ty early age – I was editor of both my No, after all that I didn’t get into Chapel im. She was second cousin to Thomas
most significant players. What started documented spats with certain design- wearing nail polish and lipstick – obvi- high school and college newspapers – Hill but ended up in New York, which I Wolfe2, and had met Fitzgerald. It’s the
as a traditional role, reviewing collec- ers as it is a love letter to newspaper ously gotten into make-up – and she and I’ve never come off it. loved, graduating from Barnard in 1978. world of New York that’s gone now.
tions from the front rows of New York, journalism, American style. Talk of went on to become an airline steward- When I wasn’t studying or reading, I
Paris and Milan, evolved with the ages post-Watergate era Washington Post, ess; Janey is sitting there holding a doll, If your mother read Vogue and W, pre- worked for two great New York women, You caught the tail end of it.
– Horyn launched one of fashion’s ear- and of “covering your beat” segues into she went into childcare; and I’ve got a sumably she followed fashion quite one of which was Diana Trilling1. It was a world populated by people
liest blogs, the Times’ On The Run- Horyn’s recollections of observing the newspaper spread out in front of me. I keenly? who lived in the same apartments their
way, and, on occasion, found herself likes of Oscar de la Renta, Bill Blass, was one of those lucky kids that always She was really great looking, very tall, How was she? whole lives; people who had memories
reviewing shows from the comfort of Azzedine Alaïa, Alexander McQueen, knew what she wanted to do; I wanted long legs, boobs; never wore makeup, She was imposing and very strong, a that went back to the ‘20s; people who
her home, via online slideshows (hav- Karl Lagerfeld and Raf Simons at work. to be a newspaper writer. always looked amazing, and she was real taskmaster; you had to be accu- had been in World War II; people who
ing been banned from attending by dis- From there the conversation turns to very capable with clothes. She wore rate and on your toes. I would be sitting had come out of concentration camps,
gruntled fashion houses). her (and fashion’s) acclimatisation to What sparked that interest? really good-looking, very simple, tai- there in this amazing living room and survivors. They had a stronger connec-
When, in January 2014, she announ- the digital age, and finally her thoughts My father had been a newspaper report- lored clothes. She went to New York she’d dictate all her correspondence tion to the city, and the city operated
ced her decision to step down – to spend on a fashion industry in flux. er in Cleveland, and later on in Colum- every other year on the train, firstly to to me because she had tendonitis and at a slower pace. I’m not complaining
more time with her ailing partner Art Clocking in at some 15,000 words, bus, but then he got a real job making see her parents in New Jersey, and then couldn’t write anymore. about today, things have just changed…
Ortenberg, who subsequently passed you’d be hard-pressed to resume real money. He was a huge influence on to shop. My father did too. So we grew
away – a void was felt throughout the the following conversation in a bite- me though; he used to correct all my up with Saks and Brooks Brothers. It Did she give you any writing tips? Tell me about your first job on a news-
fashion community. Many missed her sized tweet, although Horyn’s more school papers. was how they dressed. She’d originally wanted to be an opera paper.

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In the words of... Cathy Horyn

I went as a reporter to the Virginian- Did you find yourself having to self- two or three from Chicago, two or three Did the number of journalists cover- Two pieces stick in my mind, and they Would these things have slipped
Pilot, which I loved; a great, great paper. school in fashion pretty quickly? from Dallas, two or three from Hou- ing fashion in the provinces reflect the were both profiles. I don’t remember through the net, or would there have
It’s still published but I was there in its Very quickly. But I didn’t exactly come ston. We’d probably all been on other appetite America had for fashion at the any of the reviews because there were been a stern phone call from the publi-
heyday. There was a woman at the paper to it empty-handed because of W mag- sections of our respective newspapers time? so many of them. In keeping with the cist the following morning?
whose name was Cammy Sessa; an old- azine being in our house all the time. before arriving on the fashion pages, It reflected the advertising spend. But whole ethos of the paper’s Style sec- Never a phone call. Never.
er woman, kind of cute and funny and I loved reading W because I’ve always and we just looked at it as another job, there was an insatiable readership for tion – doing great take-outs on people
particular, always had a joke. She was loved the society pages: The Mitfords, as another beat. sure; there’s a huge market in all those – there was a profile I did on [Arnold] Why?
the paper’s fashion writer and would go Evelyn Waugh, between the wars stuff, cities, particularly Texas, with Neiman Scaasi4. We went to La Grenouille5 res- I think there was nothing they could
to New York twice a year to cover the American aristocracy… I loved it all. For someone who, by their own admis- Marcus starting there, with all those taurant, which was a lot of fun, and then ever refute and they knew they couldn’t
shows, which I thought seemed like a And John Fairchild [Founding Edi- sion, was badly dressed and self- specialty stores, and all that oil mon- I spoke to his older sister in Montreal bully the Washington Post. When Ben
great job. In the summer of 86, I saw an tor of W magazine, launched in 1972] schooled in fashion, Paris and Milan ey. Great fashion is always made by two who told me a lot of stuff that was brutal Bradlee6 died, there were a lot of great
ad in Editor and Publisher for a job at always had the secret to writing about must have been… things, I think: money and racial diver- to Scaasi – like Scaasi being Isaacs spelt tributes to him, one of which was so
the Detroit News; it said ‘Fashion writer, fashion: just write about great people. …absolutely petrifying! I felt like such a sity. Detroit has got style because of an backwards, and what she used to call great I saved it. It’s a letter Bradlee had
no experience necessary.’ I had to write It’s not about the clothes, the clothes are hick. I remember the travel agent telling industry like cars in its history, plus it’s him, ‘Little Jesus’. It was a fun piece to written some time in the late ‘80s to this
two fashion stories, based on my own the most boring part, and they still are. me that the hotel I was staying in – the racially mixed; it’s got black West Side, write, but he wouldn’t speak to me for a PR guy who represented the the Ring-
ideas, as a try-out – the first time I’d ever So, to me, fashion was about people. Leonardo di Vinci – was really central. black downtown, Jewish North Side… long time after that. I mean, we weren’t ling Brothers Circus. The PR had kept
written about fashion – and then they It was actually situated beyond Milan But go to Washington DC and it’s just there to protect the designers, we didn’t nagging Mary Hadad, who was my edi-
hired me. Who were the first designers you inter- airport! So I had to get in the taxi and the most boring and least stylish place. protect artists, we didn’t protect film- tor on the Style section, about doing yet
viewed, or whose shows you attended? have everything with me for the entire makers. We just wrote what we want- another story on the circus. It was just
What were those stories about? Bill [Blass]’s first shows, Oscar [de la day because I couldn’t go back and Ironically, your next move was from ed and I think a lot of that stuff would really annoying, you know, threatening
One story was more newsy, about the Renta]’s shows, Isaac [Mizrahi]’s first forth. I was going to the A.P. [Associat- Detroit to Washington, right? shock people today. to take this matter to the top, wanting to

‘I said, ‘Bill [Blass], I want to do something different ‘I loved thinking to myself, ‘How can I write about
with my hair, what do you think?’ and he looks at fashion in the same way Joan Didion and Tom
me and says, ‘Ever thought about combing it?’’ Wolfe and Gay Talese write about their subjects.’’
shocking fact that black and blue were shows… I loved Bill Blass. I got to know ed Press, newsgathering organisation] The Washington Post had been in touch Who was the other profile you men- have lunch with Ben. So Ben wrote this
being worn together in fashion. That him really well. office in Milan to use their machines with me while I was in Detroit – not for tioned? guy the greatest letter, basically say-
was an odd combination at the time, to file everything. Meanwhile, all the fashion but just for a general assignment Ralph Lauren. It was probably his 20th ing, ‘Don’t call us, we’ll call you. We’ve
and worthy of a story. Then, as it was He was like American fashion folklore girls from the papers in Philadelphia, job in the Style section. They stayed in anniversary and I interviewed him twice done plenty of stories about the circus
the era of Thierry Mugler, I did a sto- at the time, right? L.A. and Miami were so smart-looking touch with me, and then when Nina for the piece. He told me this story about and the day that you think you can tell
ry about my mother who had hip pads He was like the dean of American fash- and accomplished. They’d all meet for Hyde3 died they called me up. how he’d gone to the Duke and Duch- us what to do…’ It was really funny and
put in all her clothes. I have no idea ion, such a great guy. He was from the dinner and it felt like high school, you ess of Windsor’s house, outside of Par- brilliantly written. You know, this was
what I wrote about it, but it was fun to Midwest so we had a lot in common; he know, like they wouldn’t accept me in Did moving to the Washington Post is – they were both dead by this stage – the newspaper behind Watergate being
do something that was personal. And it laughed, and he’d tell you off. I once their group! feel like a step up the ladder? because he was always obsessed with the threatened by the fucking circus!
landed me the job. went to see him in Connecticut – we Totally. Because of the reputation of the Duke of Windsor’s style. Ralph was tell-
were working on his book – and I said, What about the front row scene? paper, obviously, but also Nina Hyde’s ing me about trying on the Duke’s jackets Was the Washington Post still basking
Can you remember your earliest days ‘Bill, I want to do something different I’d sit there and stare in wonder at peo- great reputation; she’d had the job for and I’m thinking to myself, ‘What? How in the glory of Watergate when you got
arriving in Detroit? with my hair, what do you think I should ple like Carlyne Cerf [de Dudzeele]. It about 20 years. Also, all the journalists would you just take it upon yourself to slip there?
I remember going there with all these do?’ and he looks at me and says, ‘Have was great for people-watching, great I knew in that era wanted to work on on this dead Duke’s jacket?’ Anyway, I Sure, so nobody ever complained about
horrible clothes that I’d bought in Vir- you ever thought about combing it?’ theatre, a great big circus. I loved think- the paper’s Style section because it had called his personal assistant and asked, what we wrote. They may not have spo-
ginia Beach, because I didn’t real- ing about all the people who influenced great space for features writing; it was ‘Did that really happen?’ and he said it ken to you anymore but you didn’t care.
ly know any better – just whatever I When did you start covering the shows me – writers like Joan Didion and Tom a space where you could have a point of never had. Ralph just had this whole fan- I remember when I wrote that Scaasi
thought was fashionable. Unfortunately in Paris and Milan? Wolfe and Gay Talese – and thinking to view and just do whatever you wanted. tasy about trying on the clothes. But it was story, Bill Blass called me to say they’d
it was a bunch of crap. But Detroit was 1986, ’87. There were so many more myself, ‘How can I write about fashion a fun piece to write, I remember focusing been passing a copy of the Post all
fun and I could do pretty much what I journalists going from all the small- in the same way those guys write about Give me an example of a piece you on these perfect little holes in his jeans, around the 550 building [550 Seventh
wanted at the paper. er cities in the US compared to today: their subjects.’ wrote at the Post. because he’s such an obsessive guy. Avenue]. It went to Oscar, all of them

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read it and they were delighted, because Anna, she tried the exclusive and we appointed Fashion Critic at the Times. to places like 550, in the days when all Chanel and Dior. If I want to go see a what used to be a matter of hours, but is
nobody could stand Scaasi. said no; but I think she was just nev- It was a big deal because when you’re the big designers were in their studios. factory in Italy, I can do that. I like the now probably a matter of minutes, may-
er happy that Graydon got the better a critic you have all different kinds of Bill was on the fifth floor, Oscar was on Max Mara people a lot, because they be even seconds.
Why, as you refer to it, ‘do a take-out’ stuff. But, you know, Graydon assigned rights that a normal reporter doesn’t the eighth and I would just go and drop are very open and you can go see what’s First of all, I should say I don’t go to a
on the designers? me those great stories; it wasn’t like I have. in. I’d go see Ralph Rucci who was in happening in their factories. The same lot of shows, not nearly as many as oth-
This was the early ‘90s, and these guys pitched them. the next building. That’s gone now; it thing with Azzedine, just on a differ- er people do, because I only want to
were total kings. So it was like, ‘Let’s What sort of rights? doesn’t feel quite the same because eve- ent scale: one man living above his shop write about the newsmakers. I don’t
write about these guys as rock stars with But would you have been able to write Basically, when you’re a critic or a col- rything’s fractured. with an amazing atelier. I just want to want to feel like I have to go, believe me
their big egos, let’s turn the knife a lit- that stuff for Vogue? umnist, people can’t change your copy. go and hang out, sit in the corner of the I’ve done that. But when you’re seeing
tle bit.’ No! It was a bad thing for me, Vogue, They obviously do if it’s a typo, but they What about in Europe? studio, and observe. I love doing that. all those collections, season after sea-
I should never have done it. Anna and can’t tell you what to write about. If you One of the best pieces of advice I Sometimes I think the younger publi- son, you can sit at a show and know in
What better place to assassinate peo- I never had a rapport. I mean, I love want to go write about how that tree received when I got to the Times was cists don’t understand that. a heartbeat what’s new, what’s striking,
ple’s rock star egos than at Vanity Fair. Vogue, I have great respect for what she looks, then you can write about how from Carlyne Cerf: go and see Azzedi- what’s newsworthy.
That’s where you went next, right? does, but we never bonded at all. that tree looks. ne [Alaïa]. He was not where he is Why? Because they are fearful?
Right, I had four years at Vanity Fair. I today; he was going through a difficult They are more regimented and they You say you only want to write about
met Graydon Carter at a Donna Karan Was moving from Vanity Fair and Did you feel that you had to up your period. I’d never got to meet him before, probably have bosses who are like, the newsmakers. What constitutes a
show and he was very complimentary. Vogue to the New York Times about game at the Times? and all of a sudden I could go hang out ‘What did she say? What was she ask- newsmaker?
He said, ‘I’m addicted to your writing, wanting to write more straight-up fash- Oh yes. with Azzedine all day; this was the late ing about?’ I think they probably con- It changes. I mean, Dries [Van Noten]
come and write features for me’. Gray- ion criticism? 90s, it was still a much slower pace. The trol that more than they need to. If I go might be a newsmaker, but maybe not
don would tell me what he wanted and It was very simple really, the Times was And was that a conscious decision? Times gave me a new level of access to to a showroom, I’m like. ‘I just want to an innovator. Raf [Simons] is ideas driv-
I would go and do it. I did Hollywood all I’d ever wanted. You asked earlier Very much so. creative people: what they were doing in look at the clothes; I don’t want any- en; he’s going to put the information out

‘In the early ‘90s, the designers were total kings. ‘When you’re seeing all those collections – season
So it was like, ‘Let’s write about them as rock stars after season – you can sit at a show and know in
with their big egos, let’s turn the knife a little bit.’’ a heartbeat what’s new or striking, or newsworthy.’
covers, I did some fashion, like the sto- about the romance, well the Times was How did you go about that? the studio, what their thought process one holding my hand.’ But some peo- there for you to think about. Miuccia
ry about Madame Grès, and her daugh- the romance: I really loved what the A couple of things: I always made a was, and how they were making clothes. ple are scared and you get the feeling [Prada] is the same; you go backstage
ter hiding the news of her death. That institution was about and I still do. Eve- point of doing showroom appoint- I loved it. that someone is leaning on them to con- and she’s got something interesting to
was actually Laurence Benaïm’s story rything goes at a faster pace at a news- ments, and I’d always go out four nights trol the situation. And for what? Why? share that usually makes you think.
idea, she was at Le Monde at that point. paper and that was what I’d missed. a week – parties, events, whatever… Has access to designers become an They don’t understand that newspaper
I also did a big piece on Rudi Gernreich, Vanity Fair was great but you don’t go – because I wanted to know what was issue as time has gone on? reporting requires that time and effort. What do you make of that whole cha-
something on Isaac, a really early piece to the shows, you parachute in and then going on. It was wonderful but it meant, Well, if Oscar were still alive today I’d You remove that and you encourage rade of everyone dashing backstage to
on Helmut Lang… leave, so you kind of lose contact a bit. paradoxically, that I didn’t have a big need to make an appointment to see laziness and bad reporting. But, you bow down to the designer?
social life going on. I worked, really him, I’d need to get through security. know, there’s a new generation of peo- I hate going backstage. I go to hear what
Did you have a lot longer to write those Were you immediately given the post worked, for those 16 years. My son went Whereas in London in the early ‘90s, ple who are used to getting all their Miuccia has to say, but mainly because
pieces for Vanity Fair? of Fashion Critic for the Times? to boarding school and I went to the city when I met McQueen and Hussein [Cha- news and information through a cell I also want to talk to Fabio [Zamber-
I think I did six stories a year. But I actu- Amy Spindler [former Fashion Crit- and worked. layan] for the first time, you’d just go and phone, and for them speed probably nardi, Design Director of Prada] and
ally had a double contract, so maybe I ic and Style Editor of the New York visit them in these totally crappy places eclipses the actual quality of reporting. Olivier [Rizzo, stylist], whoever else
did four for Graydon and six for Anna Times] was already the critic, it was her Looking back, did those things pay where they’d be living and working. It’s a problem. is back there. But for me Miuccia is
[Wintour] at Vogue. But Anna was nev- natural bent, but then she got breast off? almost a separate world. Miuccia and
er very happy about that arrangement. cancer. They called me in March ‘97 I learnt most of what I now know about As media interest has grown, has the Part Two Raf – maybe Marc [Jacobs] and a few
and said Amy wants to get off this beat fashion in my 16 years at the Times: I role of the publicist become increasing- The Role of the Critic others – but those two always come to
Why, because she wanted exclusivity? and we want you to take it on. I start- went out, I talked to a lot of people, I ly that of the gatekeeper? mind because they are food for thought.
Yes. Graydon had called me first and ed in December of ‘98, then they made went to factories, I went to showrooms, Yes, I think that’s just the nature of Let’s talk about the role of the critic. I mean, you sit there today and see a
I already had a relationship with him, me the critic the following year. Amy I talked to designers. I loved walk- things. I’m lucky, I still have tonnes of I’m fascinated by how fashion critics are Yohji [Yamamoto] show – after I don’t
and it was fun to write for him. But with was actually the first ever person they’d ing down Seventh Avenue and going access; I can still go up to the ateliers at able to assimilate and pass judgement in know how many I’ve seen – and they’re

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just not the same thing that we saw in Does that make you feel proud? it, too. But they are old-school guys. really think, he doesn’t go crazy, and he from the past that you can’t find on the I remember Suzy Menkes writing about
the ‘90s. You decide whether it’s worth I just like saying what I think. Amy Today I think that the economics of listens to what you’re saying. He said to market: a beautiful skirt, a great shirt- this in the [International]Herald Trib-
writing about it, or just moving on. used to say to me all the time, ‘Cathy, fashion has affected everything in the me, ‘Look, you’re not the only one buy- dress, an old riding coat, a lot of things une about five years ago. She was going
shut the fuck up, you’re always sat in industry. It’s not about aesthetics, it’s ing these clothes, it’s not just about you, that are based on her grandparents. She on about branding this and branding
Do you think a designer can be impor- front of your screen, laughing at your not about pleasure, it’s certainly not I have clients all over the world.’ And has good taste, but then I ask myself, that; of course, she was absolutely right,
tant or significant without being news- own jokes.’ And she was right: I love to about charming people… there’s your answer. I like him, but I just ‘Does anyone care about taste any that did happen, and the importance of
worthy? Or rather, are there different see things that are really great – real- wish I’d known him in the early days. more?’ I looked at her clothes online branding has become key. But then it
levels of being newsworthy? ly great or really bad – that make you To what extent do you take into con- and thought, ‘Hmm, I kind of like that. started becoming a part of her writing,
For me, there are those New York think, and I love going back and writ- sideration a designer’s scale of busi- You say there’s nothing you can write It’s simple, it’s soft, let’s go see it.’ Her there was just too much of an embrace
designers like Oscar and Bill who had ing about them. ness, or their sense of history, when about Armani, but isn’t that just neu- publicist is pushing her whole aristoc- of that language and the methodology
great businesses and they made great it comes to reviewing a show? Arma- tering your role as a critic? racy angle; like I really give a shit that that those companies were using. And
stories. You can’t compare what they Do you think that the rigor and thought ni and Thomas Tait, for example, are I guess it is, but sometimes the critic has she’s related to the King of… Transyl- I thought, ‘Wait a minute, Suzy, why
did to what Helmut Lang did. If I was process of being a critic is something almost two different industries. to just bow out and say, ‘I love what you vania, or wherever it is. are you working for these people? You
Women’s Wear [Daily] and felt like I that can be transferred into other Yes, that’s a good question. I mean, I do and I’d love to come to the show, but work for a newspaper and you’re a critic,
had to cover the industry then I would fields? If given time to learn those par- really like Armani: I like the business, it just isn’t for me anymore and I don’t Although you did say you loved all those please try and stay somewhat independ-
look at it differently, but I’m not Wom- ticular fields, could you become, say, I like him as a guy. I like that he has want to disappoint you.’ socialites in your mother’s copies of W. ent of that thinking.’ Suzy won’t like me
en’s Wear. I’m looking to write stories a theatre critic or film critic or an art achieved so much, I like all the crazy Yeah, but we were all gullible back then; saying that, she’ll say that I’m a… well,
that are newsworthy. Amy used to say critic? people who work for him. But honest- By being selective about the number of it was a remote world – it is no longer she will say what she will say. I mean,
the same thing: ‘Designers call me up Yeah, I think so. I mean, I could nev- ly, it’s very difficult to write about the collections you review, is there a fear remote. people could say that I’m being a Pol-
all the time and say, ‘Why didn’t you er become a TV critic for instance, but clothes. I think for a critic it’s almost that you might miss something that’s lyanna about this, but it’s had a terrible
come to my show, why didn’t you write with enough time and patience maybe I better not to attend; I can’t write in a really interesting or relevant? Or do Do you think that today’s fashion press influence, I find it polluting.

‘When I left the New York Times, a lot of the ‘The economics of fashion has affected everything
designers were like, ‘You said things that were in the industry. It’s no longer about aesthetics or
terrible, that really hurt me... but you were right!’’ pleasure; it’s certainly not about charming people.’
about it’, and she’d just say, ‘Make more could be a movie critic, or a book critic. critical way about Armani because you think you instinctively make the has become distracted by the brand- ‘It’ clearly works, though.
newsworthy clothes and I’ll come.’ Critics are drawn to their medium: art there’s very little to say. He’s a made right choices? ing machines behind some of the big People have been totally bowled over
critics obviously have some fascination guy, he’s not going to change how he For sure, you might miss something. But designers? Do the huge company struc- and influenced by it. But then you get
What do you think gives authority to for the creation of new art and the per- does things, there’s not going to be any the bigger fear is that you might not per- tures, the big advertising spends, the a younger generation that isn’t as con-
the critic? sonalities in art. I find fashion people particular newness. ceive the stuff that you are seeing cor- brand ambassadors, the celebrities, fident at expressing an opinion, or in
A couple of things: longevity and being more appealing than most artists. May- rectly, that you might not have the right and all the PR and marketing actually some cases doesn’t even know they can
free of influence. You’ve always got be because of the business side, which Surely Armani’s sense of history – set of eyes or the right amount of infor- eclipse any objective analysis of a col- have an opinion about these things.
something influencing you, but you I really like, maybe because I love the the company is 40 years old this year – mation, or you’re just not up to date. lection? It sometimes feels like the col- That leads to an entire generation
should work at keeping some distance phoniness of fashion. These days, the makes it newsworthy? lections are made into a success before thinking it has to go with what the brand
from that. You just have to say what you phoniness is not so much fun as it was Well, I think about what his shows were How do you keep up to date? they’ve even been presented. says, with its indoctrination.
think. in the ‘90s. Bill was a big phoney, Oscar like back in the late ‘80s and they were By reading a lot. By taking the time. By Yeah, completely.
was a huge phoney. They came and they so beautifully done, as well as being accepting the things that you’re not so Is this something you take into con-
Is that the hardest thing? charmed and they swaggered, they flirt- great-looking clothes. I mean, you good at and concentrating on what you Do you find yourself guilty of becom- sideration when reviewing a big brand
No. One of my toughest reviews was ed with the customers, and yet they would kill to have some of those jack- do well. This season I’m just trying to ing distracted by all that? designer as opposed to a designer that
for an Oscar show and it was the one he were great people behind that façade. ets and pants today. And the quali- see as many new designers as possible. I try not to be, because I have a particu- has none of that branding support?
loved the most. Same with Tom Ford. ty was insane. His presentations were I’m not that hopeful, but I want to go. lar bug in my ass about exactly what It depends. You’d mentioned Thom-
Tom got so upset with me about some- Whose doing that now? just heaven, but now they’re in this new I’m going to see someone tomorrow, Ms you’re describing – about the branding. as Tait just before, as the polar oppo-
thing… but when I left the Times, a lot I guess Karl [Lagerfeld]. I mean, he space. I asked Armani about all this [Mafalda] Von Hessen: she’s a woman I don’t even like that word. site to Armani. Well, I love going to see
of these guys were like, ‘You said things doesn’t necessarily spend so much time when I did an interview with him last who is about my age, a costume design- Thomas, he’s a little uneven but he’s
that were terrible, that really hurt me, with the customers but he gets on the year, and the great thing about Arma- er from Rome who’s started doing her So you consider all the branding fan- very hands-on. He obviously doesn’t
but you were right!’ stage and he performs. Tom Ford does ni is, if you tell him straight what you own line. She is doing all those things fare as a negative distraction? have the facilities of Raf at Dior, or the

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incredible atelier of Azzedine, but I I think he was tired of hearing it; I think to go into the Times archive to look a collection by experiencing it in differ- our super SWAT team and all that. feminism versus less aggressive fem-
just expect him to be able to deliver at he liked it but I think he’d moved on. at what Gloria Emerson8 had written ent contexts, like seeing it shot in edito- inism… Miuccia was obviously una-
the level that he’s able to deliver. If it’s That show was around 2004 and I think about YSL back in the day. I could tell rials or worn on the street? What did the blog offer that the print ware it was going on, but when I told
Chanel or Dior I expect them to deliver he hated people saying in 2007 that they that Hedi was getting everything from Yes. Not on the street or in editorials, newspaper couldn’t? her about it I was like, ‘You should have
according to their histories. Ultimately, loved that show. Anyway, to go back to these two or three particular seasons in but in the showrooms. Céline is a good If I didn’t quite get the show the first joined the conversation!’
that is what you’re buying. God, some- your question, great shows need that the ‘60s, but I wanted to be sure. Next example of that. Phoebe [Philo] does time round, I could revisit it on the blog
times I think I should become one of emotional or intellectual button. We’ve thing I know, four hours have passed things in the show that can be good and develop what I wanted to say. Later Wasn’t Marc Jacobs actually posting at
these brand people; I’d love to say the lost that within fashion, there used to be and I’m still reading about a T-shirt on and interesting, or they can be things on, I did it in reverse: I would put things one point?
things that they should do. a lot of wit, too. You still see exception- the Left Bank in 1968. But that gave me I don’t quite get. I think she’s talented on the blog quickly and then I’d think Yeah, sometimes Marc would weigh in,
al Rei Kawakubo shows, and then she the impetus to think about what Hedi and when I go to the showroom I tend about it and write a more complete usually because he was annoyed…
Do brands ever ask you to consult? can really hit it out of the park. But, you was doing and to have some fun with to see a far more human connection to piece for the paper. I always thought the
No, I couldn’t. When I was at the Times, know, she has duds too. writing about it. the clothes. But I’m still very much on paper should have the final word. How did you know it was actually him?
you had to be very careful. Even when the fence about Phoebe, too. We had to get it confirmed. He was
I was in a showroom and people would As a fashion critic, how important is it So the time available to you influenced The dialogue between you and the actually complaining about somebody’s
ask me, ‘So, what do you think of my to experience a show first hand in order what you wrote. Let’s talk about the On The Runway readers took on this whole new world. comment. Me or somebody else. I don’t
business?’ And I would tell them, just to write about it? It was a completely different writing blog you wrote for several years at the The first five years were great because we remember…
because it’s easier to do that, but you Well, I wrote this piece for T magazine experience: I didn’t go to any shows, Times. The interaction between your- had the same people who would come on
weren’t supposed to. last summer without going to the shows. I only looked at seven collections self and the online community that to the blog and make comments. I could How did you feel about all these anon-
Joe McKenna had mentioned, ‘I want online, and I was really happy with how formed around the blog was quite go from collection to collection and they ymous but sometimes really informed
How do you distinguish between a good to know why everything is so commer- it turned out. I never had that time to unique at the time. Was that the goal always had a great opinion, and some and knowledgeable people challeng-
collection and an exceptional one? cial looking.’ So the deputy editor at T think when I was on the paper. you set out to achieve? great arguments developed. ing you?

‘Sometimes the critic has to say, ‘I love what you ‘Who could have imagined that guys and girls
do and I’d love to come to your show, but it just isn’t sharing pictures of themselves on Instagram
for me anymore – I don’t want to disappoint you.’’ would be enough to shift fashion product?’
I’d say the fundamental thing between asked me to write about it. You know, it Does the squeeze of the deadline lead It was totally organic. I remember talk- You developed quite a rapport with some Some of it was really intimidating!
good and exceptional is: can it hit an was Nicolas [Ghesquière]’s first Vuitton you to write things you later regret or ing with Tim Blanks [Editor-at-Large of those anonymous people posting.
emotional button? Secondly, can it hit a show, and of course there was Hedi [Sli- that were off the mark? for Style.com] one night in 2007 at the Well there was Marko. His original han- Did you find yourself getting swayed by
mental button? Like John Galliano did mane], and then we thought of a few oth- Yeah, I’ve written follow-up pieces on Castiglione café in Paris. I mentioned I dle was ‘Autre’; then he went by his real their opinions?
a great collection for Galliano, which er people who showed really straight- collections because I missed things the was starting a blog – they were still new name. He was very reactionary and fun- No, I made a point not to look at what
was one of my favourite shows that he forward looking clothes – that’s really first time around. I did it with Stefano at this point – and he said, ‘If you’re ny and knowledgeable about clothes; Marko and other people were saying
did, with the twins, the tall people and what we meant by commercial. So they Pilati and his first YSL show. doing a blog you should…’ and I said, turns out he lives somewhere in for- before I’d had a chance to post. Later
the fat people; it was brilliant and he gave me that assignment at the begin- ‘Tim, stop! Don’t tell me what a blog mer Yugoslavia and has an Art Histo- on, I would get into the habit of com-
came out with the marionette on a pup- ning of June and I had three weeks to What did you say in the first piece that should be, nobody knows what a blog ry PhD. I met him in Paris actually, he ing back from something like a Jil Sand-
pet, and I just thought that was fun and work on it, which gave me the time to you later revised? should be, and I don’t want to know. I is a really nice guy but very intense. He er show, and quickly writing something
gutsy. A lot of people were very upset really think about it, and to think about I came back and said it was actually just want to see what comes from it.’ was so multilingual that he could just on the blog – only four sentences – just
about that show, saying these people are Hedi. interesting. The first time around I’d break things down in almost any lan- to give them the platform so they could
all monsters, and I was like, ‘Look at us; dismissed it right out, saying it was all Did you immediately feel a sense of guage, and in slang. start writing. They needed that launch-
we’re the freaks! Are you kidding me?’ Why him in particular? puff-sleeved and tulip-shaped skirts freedom, a looser format? ing pad. But then that would bug me
Some of McQueen’s shows have been I think he is talented at what he does, and very girly; I just didn’t get it. But In the early years, the Times allowed me What was the most memorable exch- because, you know, I’d just want to sit
very emotional, too, like the dancehall he’s great at branding – ha, that word then I got it and wrote about it. I kind of to post onto the blog directly, because ange you had with him on the blog? in my room, eat my pasta bolognese and
show. That was one of the all time great again, [sings] branding! – even though liked him at YSL and I liked some of his there was no one in the New York office It was about that very curvaceous, zaft- actually think about the show for a few
shows. Lee [McQueen] used to get very I think the whole story with the teen- ideas but I just sensed that he was a bit when I was writing from Europe. I ig-looking Prada show, maybe five years minutes before writing.
upset if people said that to him. agers and the music is so kind of pop- all over the place. didn’t have to go through an editor. Can ago; Lara Stone and Doutzen [Kroes]
py… Anyway, I enjoyed thinking about you imagine? Then somebody found were in it. We had all this post-Berlin- On that subject, do you find yourself
What was so upsetting about that? that piece, and I actually had the time Have you found yourself reappraising out and it all changed, and we then had Wall feminism, post-socialism, militant swayed by the opinions of other critics?

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No, I usually read them afterwards. I the last couple of years has become a shows me his great work, or someone guy, but that doesn’t stop her. She’s also of formats, some of which have more You know, there was a guy at the Times
used to read Suzy because the Herald harder road. There are so many differ- who is funny, or that girl who runs Man very good about telling readers when elbow room than others. called Mike Berger who died in the late
Trib came to my room in the morning ent types of fashion coverage – online Repeller. But just to see some girl with something is just silly, when hats are the 1950s. He could write 1000 words in
and I could read it at breakfast. There fashion, red carpet fashion, celebrity her 20,000 likes? I don’t know… worst they’ve ever been. Part Three about 40 minutes.
are times when I read her and am like, fashion – and they take up a lot of the Hypersensitivity in a Bitchy World
‘What is she talking about? I don’t audience’s time, or, worse still, they Does it make the role of the critic more How much of her archive have you Was it good?
believe that at all!’ Other times I’ll sit constitute the reason why some people challenging? been through? Did you relate to her in Who are you writing for? The design- God yeah, he won the Pulitzer Prize for
there laughing out loud because she’s have turned off from fashion. So here The environment is more interesting any way? ers themselves? Bored housewives in a 4000-word piece he wrote about a war
just so funny and right on target. you are, the fashion critic writing your today, but it’s far harder to understand. I’ve looked at some of her later stuff, the Midwest? Fashion students online? veteran who in 1949 went on a shooting
piece about the guys and the girls who There are just so many new designers when she becomes a syndicated writer, Bernard Arnault? spree in his neighbourhood. Mike Berg-
Did you ever have problems coming to are really good at fashion – the actual out there, they’re like gnats. Some of and she gets really croaky and is kind of I think it’s a little bit of all those peo- er went over there and interviewed 50
terms with all the access that so many designers themselves – and yet the audi- them are quite good and many of them past her due date. In those early years of ple. But I hardly ever think about the people in the neighbourhood – the par-
new people were now getting? Wheth- ence has turned its attention elsewhere. have been able to survive through creat- 1908 to 1914 though, just before the war fashion world, even though I know ents, everybody. Then he went straight
er that was bloggers on the front row or ing businesses on the internet. So I think starts, she’s amazing, and she’s tough. they are reading because I see them on back to the office and in three hours
people weighing in on the Times’ blog? What are your thoughts on the ubiq- all of that makes it interesting, but it’s a But I know that I’m going to find fash- Twitter and on blogs. It’s essentially for wrote 4000 words and won the Pulitzer
No, I didn’t mind that part of it; I uitous image-led blogs and the extra- constantly moving target. Just as soon ion critics at the Times in the ‘30s and a smart reader, in New York or across Prize. It’s an amazing piece; it’s worth
thought it was fun. Also, I have a big ordinary rise of Instagram? as you grasp it, it changes again. And I ‘40s who were not critics but who would the States. reading.
enough ego to think that what I had at They have served an amazing purpose, think you’re foolish to try and grasp it kind of just give a slap on the wrist.
the Times – my access, my place – was those guys and girls with Instagram in its entirety. It just doesn’t work like Do you care if your interpretation of Do you agree that it’s easier to write a
great, and a reader with great opinions accounts just being able to say ‘I like that anymore. As a journalist you have What have you read in the past 12 a show or collection is faithful to what damning review than something that’s
didn’t come close to that. But I loved the something’. to focus on the things you believe in. months that you think stands out as a the designer had in mind? smart and positive?

‘I write about the people who really know fashion – ‘I grew up surrounded by White House reporters
the actual designers – but the audience has turned and sports reporters, so I think that everyone
its attention to red carpets and celebrity.’ should just be cool and objective and less senstive.’
fact we had a community on the blog, What purpose has that served to you? Before we started the interview, you great piece of quality fashion criticism? No, that’s why it’s sometimes deadly It depends.
and I loved being the forum master. None to me, but it certainly helps the mentioned you were currently writ- … [ponders] Oh gosh… to go backstage and get the designer’s
designers. ing a history of fashion coverage at the explanation, because then you don’t You’ve written your share of vicious
I guess it underlined the pecking order. New York Times, starting back in the You can say ‘nothing’ if you want. interpret. I think the designers tend to put-downs.
The readers were not exactly your dis- In massaging their egos? 19th century. Have you found that crit- I can’t think of anything. like it too if you bring something totally Doing that in the past was easier,
ciples, but they… No, in moving their products. It’s free ics were more or less opinionated in the different – McQueen used to love that. because it was fun; there was a kind of
…no, please, they’d better be my dis- advertising. Well, I don’t know if it’s past? How telling is that in the history of breathlessness about it, a kind of daring.
ciples! It was like, ‘This is my fucking free anymore; they’re probably get- It depends on the individual, and I fashion criticism? Do you feel we’re in Do they ever tell you if they think Contentiousness is a wonderful quality,
show here.’ ting sent clothes and products and can only talk about the woman I’m a low point? you’ve got it wrong? but just being snarky – bitchy – is not
being paid. But just by going on Ins- researching right now; she was the first What’s frustrating is that there are Yeah, sometimes they do. Generally the same thing. With the shows, you’re
How has writing on a blog affected tagram and saying I’m wearing this fashion editor at the Times – her pen some really good writers out there. they’ll tell you if they don’t like what coming back from 15 minutes of explo-
the way you review the shows? Gener- today, they’re getting a gazillion likes name was Anne Rittenhouse – and she They’re smart, they’re funny. But the you’ve said. sion and your mind is racing and when
ally speaking, descriptions of clothes and that shifts product. Who could have was quite critical. But she’s not criticis- formats available right now are not you see something really hideous – like
now seem redundant, whereas analy- imagined that someone sharing a pic- ing designers per se, because she comes great, that’s part of the problem. I look Do you get writer’s block? Tom Ford’s show with the weird broad
sis has become more important than ture of themselves in an outfit would be at an age when that whole designer at Tim Blanks and he’s very perceptive Sure, I don’t call it that, but sure. You caps and Kate Moss in it – you have fun
ever before. enough? thing was just beginning with Poiret8, about a lot of things and he can be very can sit down at six o’ clock and by eight writing about it. ‘Hideous and freaky’
Well, slide shows have made people so she’s on the cusp. In an article I found funny, but he’s writing in a format that you suddenly get really tired and you I think I called it. I wouldn’t change
very lazy. They kind of do the work for Does that fascinate you? about Anne Rittenhouse’s first trip to has now defined him. He might be very don’t feel like writing, but you have to a word to this day, but they’re not as
you. In a way, even though I just said Slightly, but after you look at it once, Paris, she definitely whacks Poiret in happy with it – I haven’t talked to him write to the deadline – even though the rewarding to write. People generally
there are all these smart people out it’s not so fascinating. I’d rather see that column. She knows she’s in a mod- about it. I would just say that Tim has a words are coming out like glue. Oth- remember a tart or snarky line, but for
there, I think that fashion criticism in [illustrator] David Downton’s blog that ern space, she knows that Poiret is the long history of working in many kinds er nights it’s just coming out all good. me as a journalist I would rather write

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about something more thoughtful. Almost everywhere. for your copy, if you believe that. The Have things that you’ve written caused Do you find that you’ve become defined and war; ‘what I’m writing about is friv-
I know I live in a slight bubble but it’s other side of that is if I don’t like some- personal relationships to fall apart? by the negative things that you’ve writ- olous’?
Do critics hold being banned from the only thing I’ve ever known in news- thing someone has shown on the run- No, because they probably weren’t rela- ten or spats that you’ve had? No. I never felt that way, strangely. I
shows as a badge of honour? paper writing as a critic. I think that way then I have to be able to say it to tionships. The people who got mad at Kind of. don’t think Anne Rittenhouse felt that
I think they used to. I never thought younger journalists are sometimes their face. me are still friendly with me, but we way either. I always felt that what we
it was a badge of honour, and I was nervous for no reason, or overly con- don’t go on vacation together. We don’t Does that upset you? When I googled were doing was important, that in its
glad that the Times always stood up cerned about being critical, and I think And not hide behind words? go to dinner together. I can still walk your name this morning, the first thing own space and context it was ultimately
for me. Most of the time I didn’t even that’s too bad. Maybe they’ve nev- Never. For example, Narciso [Rodri- into their studio, even though they that comes up is the spat you had with going to become social history. If we’re
know there was a problem until I found er worked in my kind of environment guez] and I are very friendly, Raf and yelled at me five years ago, I mean real- Hedi Slimane. It just seems reductive, lucky it is social history now, but it gen-
out I wasn’t invited to the show. Even where you have absolute freedom, I are very friendly, but I’ve called them ly yelled. It’s fine. especially since you’ve been writing for erally needs to marinate. The reality is
though I would hear later on – some- where no publisher nor editor has ever before and said, ‘I got to tell you this is a long time and he’s been designing for that I know the Times is the paper of
times months later – that Art Sulzberg- called me and said, ‘You pissed them not my favourite show.’ Do you think that the paradox of your a long time… influence because of so much of its con-
er, the publisher or Jill Abramson, the off, Cathy, they’ve pulled their adver- job is that you deal with issues of hyper- …and we haven’t talked in ten years. tent, and fashion will not be in the Top
executive editor, had been contacted. I tising. Can you just cool it now.’ What have you learned most from the sensitivity within a world that is notori- But yeah, I think it does come up a lit- Ten. It will be in the Top Ten for gen-
think they may have been involved with designers with whom you are close? ously bitchy? tle bit; more so a few years ago when erating revenue, for sure… probably
Saint Laurent, I don’t remember now. Do you ever stop to consider how a People say to me, ‘Oh, you’re just Sometimes, yes. I come at it from a news I’d go to Milan and all the Italian press Number One.
Armani; I’m sure. But they would nev- harsh review might impact people’s friends with Raf,’ and I’m like, ‘I have side; I grew up surrounded by White were calling me ‘La Horyn’– I loved
er tell me that there’s a problem, which lives, whether it’s the designer or the spent a lot of time interviewing Raf, I’ve House reporters, sports reporters and that. They were more astonished that So does that fast-track its importance?
I’m glad about, that way I just carry on. lesser-known individuals involved? spent a lot of time learning about Raf all that, so I think that everyone should you could write certain things in the To be perfectly blunt, the reason fash-
Not so much, but as time’s gone on I and how he has put together his com- just be cool and objective. But then you paper, and I was like, ‘Are you joking? ion is important at the Times is because
So you never got your wrist slapped by have done. I remember getting a very pany and the thinking behind those find out that in fashion there are peo- Do you read the New York Times; we of the writers who made it important. It

‘No publisher nor editor has ever called me and ‘I think that younger journalists are sometimes
said, ‘You pissed them off, Cathy, they’ve pulled nervous for no reason, or overly concerned about
their advertising. Can you just cool it now.’’ being critical, and I think that’s too bad.’
the powers that be at the Times? irate phone call from Carolina Herre- collections.’ Again, I think about Bill ple who are far more sensitive. I under- are not like La Repubblica. We actu- is just as simple as that. I think that Amy
Never in 16 years. I heard about adver- ra when I said that the collection she’d Blass: I learnt a lot about who he was stand that creative people are going to ally are good.’ I was always surprised had a big influence on bringing respect
tising being pulled but I never heard done had absolutely no relevance. And as a guy, who he was as a creator, who be like that, but then across the board more than anything, that they didn’t to fashion at the Times. There are oth-
anybody say, ‘This is your fault’. The she was saying, ‘I have all these people he was as a businessman. I think that’s in fashion there are lots of sensitive peo- know enough about the Times. Why ers too: Charlotte Curtis and her amaz-
attitude was always, ‘They might take who work for me and they spend time been worth it. But it’s not really impor- ple, and I think it almost becomes an would this be a novelty? We have strong ing society coverage in the 60s, Carrie
it away now, but it will come back.’ and effort,’ you know, and I thought, tant that they care about me; I mean, if excuse. That’s why I love talking to the theatre and book critics, they’ve been Donovan9, too. But it’s a step-by-step
‘Yes, she’s right.’ That was a cheap com- they do then that’s lovely, but I’m not CEOs almost more than the designers. banned, they’ve had trouble, they’ve process, decade by decade. In the last 20
Your experience is singularly unique, ment; there were other ways of saying expecting anything and I think it would I sometimes have a much better rap- had theatre owners take out full-page years nobody would dispute that fash-
I believe. You must be aware of that. it without being so dismissive. And I be a mistake to do so. People were real- port with them. I had a better rapport ads against them. It is not unusual. ion has a very key place at the Times.
Yep. think that is when you have to at least ly kind to me when I left the Times and with Domenico De Sole than with Tom The guys in the ‘60s who said that fash-
consider the amount of effort and time my boyfriend died; there was a huge Ford. I like Tom, but I loved talking Do you consider the New York Times ion didn’t belong there, who thought it
How does that make you feel about the that goes into creating something. outpouring of people calling, writ- to Domenico, and if I wanted to know to be the best newspaper in the world? was frivolous and were contemptuous of
broader fashion media landscape? ing, emailing, it was fantastic. But, you something about the company I would Absolutely. Bar none. And absolute- it, would never say that now. But I think
The only place I would ever worry Can you genuinely be friends with a know, it’s still just my job. get it from him. ly the best website in the world, too. it’s the writers who have made it inter-
about it is at the Times; if their stance designer who is going to be the subject They’re incredibly good at updating esting and important and more rele-
changed, it’d be a worry. Ultimately, I of your reviews? Do you find yourself drawing a line Why do you think that is? and staying on top of things and being vant. But then I think we have a culture
don’t want to see any kind of influence: I think you can hang out and have an between industry friends and your per- Because we were rational, calm people, aggressive right across the board. surrounding us that is interested in it.
I don’t want to see writers having to affinity for certain designers, but I think sonal friends? Is there such a line? with the same sensitivities. Tom would
mention everybody who’s an advertis- that if you believe you are truly friends Kind of, more or less. There’s my own often do a dance with me. [Adopts dra- Have there been times when you’ve It’s a perfect storm.
er, I don’t want to see anything repug- then you are in for trouble. And it’s not family and then one or two people, and matic voice] ‘Oh Cathy’, all jokey and thought to yourself, ‘The New York It’s very much that. And then let’s face
nant like that. But it obviously happens. good for your professionalism nor good that’s about it. flirty. I’m like, ‘Oh, please, just stop!’ Times covers world economics, politics it; fashion pays for the foreign coverage.

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When someone once asked you the Can you answer your own question? to create as slowly as they used to. I don’t get that kind of publicity today, thousand and teens, or whatever we to adapt to change. I mean, sometimes
question, ‘What should an aspiring The romance and seduction of fashion. think that’s definitely had an impact. because they have to share it with all call this era. Where is the Kawakubo of I don’t like the shows but I get why he
fashion journalist be doing now?’ I People would rather be sitting in the These days, the designers have to be these other designers. And the media today? Or the Martin Margiela or the does it – the big scale thing – because he
remember you suggested they launch a front row; it’s a narcotic to them. I mean, more things to more people; it goes way adjusts accordingly: all those smaller Helmut Lang; those people who real- is selling Chanel to consumers around
Bob Woodward-esque10 blog. Can you these companies now pay for them to go beyond that traditional role of attend- magazines and websites and blogs that ly made a statement about their times? the world. It still means something, just
explain that a bit more? to all these shows. They’re happy; they ing trunk shows, dinners and lunches – have come out are creating endlessly I don’t think anyone is going to dispute on a huge scale.
I basically said: learn how to report. don’t want the conflict. They don’t see just getting to know the clients. If you go multiplying microcosms. I mean, this is what I am saying; we just don’t see those
Learn to speak French fluently. Go to the companies as, you know, the evil back to the 1940s and ‘50s, an era when not Oprah or Johnny Carson level mass kind of people emerging now. Chanel is a pretty good example of a
France. Make LVMH and Kering the empire. I don’t either! But I think there the designers occupied an amazing kind media; it’s a new form of mass media. big-scale luxury brand that’s evolving
objects of your reporting. Do a blog or are great stories, great dramas and great of spotlight, in many ways they were Is that an irreversible shift? Is it likely with the times.
a website in which you’re not necessar- intrigues in fashion, and it’s worrisome free. They didn’t have to do the things Kind of mass-niche. to come back? I remember being in the gym at the Ritz
ily identified. I think it would be amaz- that no one’s really telling them. that Karl has to do – loves to do, but has Mass-niche, yeah. You’re in speciality I think it will come back at some point, one day – I used to sneak in there to use
ing and everybody would read it. to do. They were kind of the lionesses magazines and blogs where it is really I just don’t know when or how. That’s the exercise bikes –and Maureen Chi-
But that begs the question, how can of the scene. focused on someone’s particular aes- not to say we’re not living in interest- quet, the CEO of Chanel, was on the
Do you really see someone doing that one be a fashion critic in a context that thetic or a specific type of person. ing times: consider what the internet bike next to me. She’s really smart, and
though? depends economically on the very Today’s designers have far greater and globalisation have done, and how I asked her if she thought there would
All I’m saying is that if you know how thing you are supposed to critique? resources at their disposal though. Would you agree that the most signifi- we’ve created these ‘super-consumers’ still be couture after Karl retires? Her
to report properly, the fashion industry As I say, it’s worrisome. Fashion com- Well, they are under so much pressure, cant aspect of fashion right now is how around the world. You could say the answer was interesting: she said, ‘It will
is such an amazing opportunity. Peo- panies start behaving like govern- so they have assistants and machines immeasurably bigger it is, compared great story of our recent times is Net- evolve into something else.’ And I think
ple have said to me, ‘But how will I get ments. I’ve seen it just in the last cou- getting the stuff out. It has good ben- to 20 years ago? More brands, more à-Porter, and how they’ve managed to that’s a good answer. The fashion busi-
invited to the shows?’ and I’m like, ‘You ple of years. Journalists, as I’ve already efits but it becomes a business more CEOs, more media coverage, more deliver fashion product to your door. ness just evolves into something else.

‘Where is the Kawakubo of today? Or the Margiela? ‘The great fashion story of our times is probably
Or the Helmut Lang? Where are those people who how Net-à-Porter has used the internet and
can really make a statement about their times?’ globalisation to deliver product to our doorsteps.’
don’t go to the shows! That’s not the mentioned, get very worried about say- than anything else. That can be okay product, more consumers, more eve- What else would the fashion historian Look at how Raf is installing dual stu-
point.’ It’s all about developing sources ing anything that’s out of line and then for some people – it’s efficient, you get rything. Is that a good or a bad thing? deduce about this era? dios at Dior: I haven’t talked to him
inside these companies to find out what so many of these companies pay for the the job done – I mean, that’s the story of Or do you feel indifferent to it? Probably the fact that the reader of about it yet, but if it’s working – and I
is going on. I would love to know about bloggers to go on a plane… And the Michael Kors. It fits with today’s world. I don’t feel indifferent, and I don’t think fashion is more involved than ever would assume it is – then that’s a really
the times when Bernard Arnault wants voices that are raised against that are it is a good or a bad thing. I just tend not before, thanks to social media. Then smart way of coping with the turnover
to absolutely spank Anna Wintour. I’m so small, so few and far between. They To what extent are certain designers to look at it. I mean, there are definitely you’d have to consider how big fashion required of him.
sure it happens, I’m sure there are times might be on a blog that’s really good, now fetishised by the fashion media? negatives about it, in that it’s harder for entertainment and red-carpet culture
when he just wants to go to war with her. but it doesn’t have any impact and won’t It’s a case of the cult of personality… people to focus on things. Momentum have become. These days, are the best designers
Similarly, why is it that whenever I talk change anything. We were talking I think that has always existed in one is created by these niches but it seems those who manage to cope with the
to designers who work in groups, they about Marko earlier; well I haven’t had form or another. strange to have all these brands yet with Is creativity notable by its absence? workflow?
always tell me the most amazing stuff an email from him in about a year, and very little innovation going on. Well, if you have a foot in both eras then From what I can sense, not very many
and I’m like, ‘Why can’t that get report- then I think to myself, ‘Well, he’s prob- But don’t you think that social media you can’t help but think, ‘I want to see of them do cope with it; well, they cope,
ed?’ I would have a hard time doing it ably bored to death of this stuff by now.’ has amplified it? Is this era defined by a sense of quanti- the kind of things that McQueen was but it does get to them. I think it got to
because the places where I write gener- Not necessarily. Go back to the heyday ty over quality? doing a few years ago.’ From the design- Nicolas at some point, I think it defi-
ally require everything to be sourced. Part Four of W: if those guys weren’t fetishized If you look at it from a strictly fashion ers’ perspective, it’s interesting to watch nitely got to Marc. Galliano said in his
But you could run a good anonymous Luxury Quantity I don’t know who was? It’s true there historian point of view – and you think those who can adapt: I think Nico- court appearance that it got to him.
blog, and do what Nikki Finke11 did wasn’t so much competition, but Bill of the contributions and the design las adapts and I think that Raf adapts;
when she was running Dateline Holly- Let’s talk about how the designer’s role and Oscar and Calvin and Ralph and changes that happened in the ‘60s and they are at the age when they can. Karl Pressure… turnover required… ways
wood and she had everybody scared. I has evolved over the past few years? all the socialites – whoever John Fair- ‘70s, and in the ‘80s you look at design- does his best to adapt. I think he does of coping… You’re not painting a very
often think like, ‘Why can’t you do that Perhaps the most significant change is child felt like writing about – dominat- ers like Kawakubo – then I think we an amazing job, especially when you upbeat picture of what it’s like to be a
in fashion?’ that designers no longer have the time ed those pages. I bet those same guys are going to be missing that in the two consider how tough Chanel must be fashion designer today.

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You have to look at the individual cir- loved talking to McQueen: I loved his up with something conceptually really As a designer, are your two princi- went to see him in LA after he left Guc- Victoria Beckham told me that what
cumstances, because there are also thought process and the way he was fresh. People ask me about this all the pal options: either attach yourself to ci in the spring of 2004, and he was very she loves about social media is that it
character issues. If you’re at Dior, you able to execute ideas – from when he time and I’m always optimistic. a group, or become a small independ- shaken and upset by what had happened, enables her to communicate directly
do have a huge infrastructure of peo- was working on a shoestring right up ent voice? naturally. He was talking about making with her however-many-million fol-
ple at your disposal, and I think if you to when he had substantial resources In a recent piece about artist/brand I hope a few more groups get formed, I movies and I said to him, ‘Why don’t lowers. The message doesn’t get dis-
ask a CEO like Sidney [Toledano, Dior around him. I remember being in the collaborations, an art critic recently think that would be great. Somebody you do an online company? Why don’t torted by the press – and it costs noth-
CEO], he would probably say that the studio with him right before that Atlan- wrote on Artnet, ‘This stuff is so des- else with some vision. you create mini-movies for cell phones ing, unlike traditional advertising. It
sense of chaos is blown out of propor- tis show, he was talking about finding a perate not to make enemies, it’s going and for the web, that are pornographic. makes complete sense, from her per-
tion a little bit. I’m not being insensi- way to take hard shapes into soft shapes, to have trouble making any friends.’ Groups obviously bring great things You should create these little instalment spective. But it begs the question, have
tive to the creative process – I think you know, not just sewing them on, but It struck me as a very telling quote with them, such as resources and infra- films with a 15-minute storyline and you the traditional fashion media still got
it’s really hard and there are so many to do it all in one piece of fabric or one because it could be applied to so many structure. embed all your products into it, and peo- any power?
issues to deal with – but I would nev- form. It reminded me of Rudi Gernre- other fields or industries today. The big groups help with large-scale ple subscribe to it, and its soft-core porn.’ Well, there’s clearly a more general
er think that McQueen killed himself ich towards the end of his life talking to Yeah, I know. I remember Raf saying manufacturing for one thing; you can And he was like, ‘Will women want to waning of the establishment in which
simply because he wasn’t satisfied with me about how to make a molded dress to me not very long ago, ‘I would like centralise a lot of that stuff, like in watch porn?’ I was like, ‘Make it more critics have had the power – the tradi-
his business. that didn’t require a sewing machine. to see some stuff that really offends Navarro in Italy, where all the Kering about the narrative, get great writers to tional news outlets. That’s happening in
me, stuff that’s hard to accept.’ That’s brands get their stuff produced. I just do the content for you, make it is as fun- all fields of press: in politics, for exam-
But when wildly creative individuals – Do you think the relentless rhythm and what I liked about Thomas Tait’s show. saw Joseph Altuzarra’s clothes and he’s ny as Billy Wilder, with these great sto- ple, look at how Politico has given all
McQueen being the obvious example the lifestyle make it difficult for design- You know, he had just won the LVMH really benefitted from that. He talks all rylines that you can go online and watch.’ the newspapers a run for their money.
– wake up one day and realise that a ers to take a step back? prize, which is very establishment in a the time about how much better his Things like BuzzFeed are no longer
global company is dependent on their Not always. Look at Margiela: he was way, and then he goes off and does this manufacturing has become since Ker- I love the idea of you trying to persuade alternative news channels; they are the
every move, then that must get to them. smart to say, ‘Okay, I’m 50, I’m done. bonkers collection, but I kind of liked it. ing came on board. Tom Ford to become a digital version news channels.

‘In spring 2004, I said to Tom Ford: ‘You should ‘I remember Raf saying to me not very long ago,
go behind a wall, never give another interview again ‘I would love to see some stuff that really offends
and become the Howard Hughes of fashion…’ me, you know, stuff that’s hard to accept.’
It’s too convenient to say that the I’ve given everything, I’m happy to do How easy is it today to break with the We’ve only really touched on celebrity of Burt Reynolds in Boogie Nights… Do you think this direct-to-consum-
pressure gets to these people. I think something else with my life.’ He start- status quo? culture, but there was something that But I think that someone like Tom Ford er communication that Victoria Beck-
McQueen was smart enough and ed young and he built an amazing busi- I think that over time as a critic you get Tom Ford said recently that’s maybe could do that. He should do that. I said ham champions has the credibility of
shrewd enough to know there was ness… God knows what Renzo [Rosso] worn down, so as a creator you definite- worth discussing. He said, ‘These days, to him, ‘You should go behind a wall traditional media channels?
the other side of the business that just or what John [Galliano] do with it, but ly get worn down. Everyone is talking Rihanna’s Instagram feed is more rel- and never give another interview again; Probably not, but as I was saying about
demands a good handbag. Yet he prob- that doesn’t matter – Margiela left his about that. I mean, look at this girl Von evant than reviews or hard copies of become the Howard Hughes of fashion Tom Ford, I think the smart designer
ably thought as close to the way an art- mark and it will go on. Hessen that I was talking about: I like magazines… and just create these amazing things.’ now wants to be spread across all plat-
ist thinks as anyone could in this busi- what she did because you just don’t see He’s probably being a little inflamma- forms: social media, traditional press,
ness. Lee basically wanted to pursue Do you think this sense of acceleration that anymore. It’s not world-shaking, it’s tory but there’s also some truth in it. If But then he went and made a tradition- Vogue. When Armani banned me from
things that he found stimulating and within the industry, and the workflow not offensive, but I like people who put you are a smart brand like Tom Ford – al Oscar-winning film… his show, I found it irritating and old-
innovative; his last few collections were required to sustain it, will continue? their taste out there… And the strange I’m using that word ‘brand’ again, I’ve I was just trying to think of ways that fashioned how journalists were mak-
all about that, especially the Atlantis I don’t think so; it will stay where it is. thing is, I fear that she won’t even make thrown in the towel! – you know, they Tom could combine his visual sense ing such a big fuss. I knew that at some
one. I guess, ultimately, there was a lot I think more designers will probably it. There should be a big enough market want it all. He wants to be in Vogue with what was happening in the world. point I would be invited back, and I
of sadness in McQueen’s life; he was just come into it. But the thing is that the big for it, but I’m not so sure. Everything and [Harper’s]Bazaar, he wants to be At that point, there was maybe a Tom could always look at it online. Plus,
an unhappy person. brands just dominate so much. It’s really has been a little bit flattened by so much reviewed in the Times and The Cut, he Ford website but they didn’t do any- Armani could simply live-stream his
hard to imagine a young designer com- of what’s going on in the industry, with wants to be in the Wall Street Journal thing with it. I just don’t think Tom is shows, if he wanted – as Ms Beckham
Were you shocked when you heard the ing along unless they have a real con- the big groups dominating. and he wants to be with Rihanna. particularly comfortable in that world, says – to talk directly to his consumers.
news about his passing away, or did you cept, like Margiela in the avant-garde, so Rihanna doing her thing has fall- But he is old school enough to proba-
sense it was inevitable? or someone like Tory Burch with a life- Do you think that the culture of lux- To be everything for everyone. en into his lap, which is great. But he bly want to have the journalists there; he
It really shocked me. I’d seen him in style concept coming out of New York. ury groups is here to stay? Do you I think so. But, you know, Tom is one to doesn’t strike me as really being par- wants to have the endorsements and the
London only a few months before. I Perhaps someone from China will come think that other groups may form? talk; he was one of the last to go online. I ticularly in control of it. reviews, he wants that press coverage.

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In the words of... Cathy Horyn

As the fashion industry has basically In the year after you left the Times, when I’d be slamming his show: I’d go He totally intimidated me before I’d will always think about him in that way. they died – Coco Chanel, for one.
become a brand itself, a lot of its ‘play- have there been instances, such as John from ‘conical bra-cups’ to ‘Mr Ford said’ met him. I thought he was so brilliant Other than Raf, I feel privileged to have
ers’ have bigger media profiles – your- Galliano’s return at Margiela, or the in the same sentence. I tried to avoid at being able to say on a runway what got to know Bill Blass, and I’ve loved Have you ever been tempted to take on
self included. changes at Gucci, when you felt frus- saying it, and just write ‘he’. But now if would take me forever to say. His con- the conversations I’ve had with Karl. a magazine editorship?
I don’t even think about it, and I don’t trated not to have a platform to voice I want to say ‘Tom’, and it’s appropriate trol over his self-expression was amaz- I will always remember sitting out on No, I’d be terrible. Not me. I like writ-
want to. Look at [New York Times your thoughts? in the context, then I can. ing and I was convinced that I would go his patio in Biarritz at midnight – Karl ing, I like being out there.
street fashion photographer] Bill Cun- It was more a question of, ‘Phew, I don’t backstage and just say something stu- in his sweater and high collar – talking
ningham: Bill works by himself and he have to think about that.’ They banned We talked earlier about your blanket pid like, ‘I love the colours!’ So going to about his father in post-war Germany Last question, what do you know now
doesn’t want to be bothered by people, me from Gucci because I wrote that she protection from the Times’ publish- Belgium and talking to him, as anyone when the Mark was devalued, and him about fashion that you didn’t when you
but after that movie came out about him wasn’t strong enough for them. And I ers. Will that change now you’re at New who’s talked to him knows, was a really coming home and having no money. started writing at the Detroit News?
[Bill Cunningham New York], people don’t think people were as critical of York, a magazine that like any other great experience. He is a very emotion- Other than that, there are people I wish Hmmm, [whispers] how much money is
would come up to him and interfere John’s collection as they should have relies on advertising revenue? al person and a romantic designer, and I I’d gone out of my way to meet before made in it! Never underestimate that.
with what he was doing. I understand been. I think they gave him a bit of a I don’t know yet, we haven’t talked
that: during the shows, people will want pass on that one. I always allow for first about it; we’ll just have to cross that
to talk to me – thank God they don’t collections to be a work-in-progress, but bridge when we get to it. I mean, no one
want to take my picture. You know, that was a little bit too much of a work- has said to me, ‘You have to be careful
Anna and all the others are so out there in-progress, and people didn’t say it. what you say’. I just know I don’t want
in the public eye that I just find it weird. anything that’s snarky, but that’s my
Let’s talk about your move to The Cut. own personal choice. I am in no mood
But you must be aware that over the By the time people read this, you’ll to write anything snarky, I don’t think
years you’ve reached this inner sanc- have done your first season reviewing that’s interesting anymore.

‘I never think about my ‘media profile’, and I don’t

want to. You know, Anna and the others are so out
there in the public eye that I just find it weird.’
1. Diana Trilling (1905-1996) was an every New Year’s Day, covering poli- stein’s stories documenting the Water- ion reporting as for her oversized glass-
American literary critic and author. A tics and society in addition to fashion. gate scandal. es and for dressing entirely in black.
member of a left-wing circle of writ- After her retirement, she became
ers, thinkers and polemicists from the 4. Arnold Scaasi is a Canadian fash- 7. Gloria Emerson (1929-2004) was widely recognised for her appearanc-
1930s to ‘50s known as the ‘New York ion designer and couturier that has an American author, journalist and es in Old Navy commercials, where she
Intellectuals’ – which included her dressed First Ladies such as Mamie New York Times war correspondent, wore her trademark glasses and de-
tum of the fashion world? shows with New York magazine. Do you ever feel disillusioned with
husband Lionel Trilling alongside Saul Eisenhower, Barbara Bush, Jacqueline originally hired in 1957 to work on the clared the merchandise “Fabulous!”
I think that where I am is a direct func- I’m really happy to be doing the shows writing about fashion? Bellow, Hannah Arendt and Susan Kennedy, and actresses like Elizabeth women’s pages of the newspaper. Over
tion of the New York Times – and I’m again, and I think that The Cut is a good Sometimes, usually at the end of the Sontag – Trilling’s writing and literary Taylor and Sophia Loren. After her career, Emerson wrote for publi- 10. As a young investigative journalist
criticism was published in titles such studying at the Chambre Syndicale cations including Vogue, Playboy and for the Washington Post, Bob Wood-
happy to say that it was the Times. I thing because it is a different platform fashion weeks. You’re overwhelmed, as the New Yorker, the Atlantic and de la Haute Couture in Paris, Scaasi Rolling Stone, and her book Winners ward did much of the original news
think I did what you’re supposed to do to the Times. I was over there today and and there’s a lot of bullshit in fashion so the Nation. Martin Amis described moved to New York in the 1950s to set and Losers, an account of her experi- reporting on the Watergate scandal –
meeting her akin to stepping into the up his own label specialising in glam- ences covering the Vietnam War, won the revelation of numerous clandes-
as a Times reporter: cover your beat. I was saying, ‘So, I don’t have any lan- you end up feeling like a tool in the busi-
“den of a literary lioness.” orous eveningwear. Scaasi was pre- a National Book Award in 1978. tine and illegal activities of the Nixon
guage restrictions like at the Times, ness. But then you go back to your life sented with a Lifetime Achievement administration, such as bugging the
So much of this conversation has come right? And they were like, ‘Shit’, ‘fuck’, making gingerbread. But then, as Suzy 2. Praised by William Faulkner as Award from the Council of the Fash- 8. Paul Poiret (1879-1944) was a leg- offices of political rivals and the har-
the “best writer of his generation”, ion Designers of America in 1996. endary French couturier who pio- assment of activist groups by the CIA
across as a love letter to the Times; are ‘write whatever you like.’ I mean, you always says, you see another great show the American novelist Thomas Wolfe neered draping at a time when women and FBI. Today, Woodward remains
there moments when you miss it? don’t want to go overboard but you and you get recharged. (1900-1938) is known for mixing po- 5. Founded in 1962, La Grenouille is were still expected to wear corsets. He at the Washington Post, as Associate
etic and impressionistic prose with the a storied French restaurant in New is credited as the designer of the hob- Editor, and has authored 16 books on
I just wish I’d left earlier so my boyfriend want to have fresh, crisp interesting lan-
autobiographic in novels such as Look York’s Upper East Side, that after its ble skirt and the harem pant, and hav- American politics.
and I could have spent more time togeth- guage. You can’t use the word ‘pissed’ at Do you have a piece that you feel most Homeward, Angel and The October launch became a hotspot for film stars ing commissioned Edward Steichen
er, in a calmer environment – without the Times. Or ‘junkie’. And I won’t have proud of having written? Fair. His writing analysed America and singers such as Frank Sinatra, to photograph his designs in 1911, is 11. As the founder and Editor-in-
during the period in which he wrote, Richard Burton, John Wayne, David also held responsible for what can be Chief of the Hollywood gossip and en-
me working, frankly. Right now, I real- to refer to people as ‘Mr Smith’ again. Probably, but I can’t think of it, [laughs] and went on to influence the likes of Bowie and Woody Allen, and mem- considered the first modern fashion tertainment website Deadline – a dai-
ly want to write this fashion at the Times there have been so many! The moments Jack Kerouac and Philip Roth. bers of fashion’s elite like Diana Vree- photography shoot. As such, Poiret ly, online rendition of LA Weekly’s
land and Yves Saint Laurent. was known during his lifetime as ‘The ‘Deadline Hollywood’ column – Nik-
book, and if I were still at the paper, it These days, that feels almost like an I am proudest of are when I’ve really
3. Over the course of her 30-year ca- King of Fashion’ in America, and sim- ki Finke is regarded as Hollywood’s
would be really hard to do, because of affectation, verging on kitsch. It makes spent time with a designer I didn’t know, reer, the Washington Post’s Fashion 6. Ben Bradlee (1921-2014) was the ply as ‘Le Magnifique’ in France. most powerful and uncompromising
the daily demands of the shows and eve- me wince to read about ‘Mr Ford’ in the and I’ve learnt about them – their way Editor, Nina Hyde (1933-1990) was Executive Editor of the Washington journalist. Finke has also written for
respected for her earnest reportage of Post from 1968 to 1991. He became a 9. Style Editor for Vogue, Harper’s Ba- the New York Times, Vanity Fair and
rything. Anyway, Vanessa [Friedman, New York Times. In my eyes, he’s Tom of working, their way of thinking, what the sociological significance of trends, national figure during Richard Nixon’s zaar and the New York Times Maga- the Washington Post, and in 2013, left
Horyn’s replacement] does a really good Ford, or Ford. Who are we kidding? they bring to fashion. The big piece I did and her notorious “Ins and Outs” col- presidency as he oversaw the publica- zine, Carrie Donovan (1928-2001) was Deadline with the view of launching
umn, which appeared in the paper tion of Bob Woodward and Carl Bern- known as much for her on-point fash- her own eponymous site.
job writing the show reviews. It was strange to write all that, especially on Raf was one of my favourite stories.

190 191
Retrospective Roman Cieslewicz

Roman
Cieslewicz
for Charles
Jourdan
1981-1982
How a Polish graphic design master took
a French shoe brand into his wonderland.

By Thomas Lenthal

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Portfolio Roman Cieslewicz

Previous page:
Play-boy de la Sixtine

This page:
Grand Gourou

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La passe

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Portfolio Roman Cieslewicz

Les moines

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Portfolio Roman Cieslewicz

Le Pèlerin

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Portfolio Roman Cieslewicz

Porte-parole

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Portfolio Roman Cieslewicz

La Gulliver

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Portfolio Roman Cieslewicz

Forts des halles

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Portfolio Roman Cieslewicz

La nonne

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Portfolio Roman Cieslewicz

La chute

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Portfolio Roman Cieslewicz

Le socle

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Portfolio Roman Cieslewicz

Nature morte

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Portfolio Roman Cieslewicz

Départ

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Portfolio Roman Cieslewicz

Triple fenêtre

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Portfolio Roman Cieslewicz

Sol-Air

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Portfolio Roman Cieslewicz

Vertige

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Retrospective Roman Cieslewicz

Born in 1930 in Lwòw, after studying at who initially commissioned him to south of Paris, and passed away in 1996 thing at M.A.F.I.A. – to test a new pho- TL: Did you have to pitch to get TL: So just to elaborate here, Roman
the then Polish city’s School of Artis- design photomontages to illustrate their following a career that was as prolific tographer they would give them Les 3 Jourdan? Whose client were they? went off and did his own thing – were
tic Industry, Roman Cieslewicz moved features. as it was diverse; one which garnered a Suisses press pack, which was system- FS: No I don’t think so; the guy came you in contact with him then to devel-
to Krakòw at the tail end of the 1940s Such was his acute eye for typogra- huge number of awards, and inspired atically photographed against a white and asked the agency boss if he could op the concept?
to enrol at its Academy of Fine Arts. phy, photography and the nuances of countless others. Here his widow, background in black and white. So, the do it. We knew we had to do some- FS: No, I simply told him I thought it
There, under the tutelage of George composition, Cieslewicz went on to Chantal Petit-Cieslewicz, is joined by first time I worked with Paolo Roversi, thing really good in the wake of Bour- should be done with old works of art.
Karolak, a graphic artist who shunned succeed Knapp as Elle’s art director in Frank Salier – the Penninghen student who had just arrived from Italy, he too din’s work. What could we do to break
the state sanction aesthetic of socialist 1965 – a key moment in a career that saw who commissioned Cieslewicz to cre- had to do the press pack for Les 3 Suiss- from Bourdin’s imagery? I’d met him at TL: And why did you think that?
realism, Cieslewicz was encouraged to the Polish affichiste [poster-artist] also ate the Charles Jourdan campaigns – es! It was funny – everyone had to start M.A.F.I.A. in 1980, but I didn’t know FS: It was ideal for collage, but also I
create completely new modes of expres- design catalogues and posters for the and System’s Thomas Lenthal, a fellow like that. It’s a good learning process; I why Bourdin was no longer doing liked the discrepancy. I had to photo-
sion unencumbered by the aesthetic Pompidou Center in the same decade. Penninghen graduate, to discuss the stayed there for three and a half years Jourdan… It was strange. graph all the legs and everything here.
mores of the Iron Curtain. Inspired by Having become a naturalised French dynamic between Cieslewicz’s avant- and then I wanted a change. I looked for So I did the photos with a leg photogra-
the Blok Group, a revolutionary associ- citizen in 1971, Cieslewicz began teach- garde aesthetic and the constrains of work and lots of different contracts with TL: So you ended up questioning your- pher and then I gave them to him. We
ation of poets, typographers and mon- ing at the city’s Ecole Superieure d’Arts commerce. various agencies. I chose the one that self, saying, ‘Okay, how am I going to did different leg movements so he had
tagists, and avant-garde artists such as Graphiques Penninghen a couple of did the most different things. follow Bourdin?’ enough materials to play around with
Mieczyslaw Berman, Tadeusz Kan- years later, where he left an indelible Thomas Lenthal: Frank, before we dis- FS: Exactly. We needed something suit- in the collages. We decided to start
tor and Ludwik Gardowski – at a time impression upon his alumni – to the cuss your work with Roman for Charles TL: And what was it called? ably crazy to break away from Bourdin, mainly with Old Masters, to go with the
he has likened to living in a “cultural extent that one of them commissioned Jourdan, I have some questions about FS: Ketchum. And when I arrived, the whose work was marvellous of course – Renaissance, with Michelangelo etc…
desert” – Cieslewicz developed a visu- his master to create the advertising what the brand meant at that time to guy had started prospecting like crazy but something photographic wasn’t and then later we did something more
al language that employed the collage campaigns for Charles Jourdan in one put everything into context. Some- and he was only looking for fashion con- really an option. So pretty quickly we modern – that was for a second cam-
techniques of Alexander Rodchenko of his early jobs after graduating. thing that is extraordinary in the his- tracts. And we got Charles Jourdan… thought, well, ‘What about Roman?’ paign. We did two seasons together.

‘We needed something suitably crazy to break ‘We decided to keep the space for the shoe inside
away from Guy Bourdin’s work. So pretty quickly the image, so the shoe would be a detail within.
we thought, ‘Well, what about Roman?’’ It was quite modest in the world of advertising.’
and John Heartfield to personal fixa- As the first shoe designer to advertise tory of Jourdan was their collaboration TL: And at the time were you interest- Because he did images, they were pic- TL: Why did it end?
tions of circles, hands, eyes, legs and in fashion magazines back in the 1930s, with Guy Bourdin. How did you begin ed in Charles Jourdan? torial but with a craziness that was FS: Because they didn’t want to get
lips. It was a graphic style that imbued Charles Jourdan more than recognised working with Jourdan? You were one FS: Yes, of course, because of Guy ultra-interesting and coupled with such stuck with just one artist, they want-
elements of the Soviet constructivists the importance of imagery to market- of Roman’s students, right? Bourdin. modernity. So I called him and asked ed to keep evolving. I did other things
with the free associations of the Surre- ing their signature stilettos – over the Frank Salier: Yes, I was one of Roman’s if he wanted to do the Jourdan cam- afterwards. I did something with a Bel-
alists, one open to accidents and semi- course of 15 years, the brand’s collabo- pupils. I graduated from Penning- TL: Was it a luxury brand or a main- paign, and he said yes straight away, and gian guy who did things with Polaroids,
otic happenstance. rations with Guy Bourdin led to some hen, top of my class; I can’t remember stream brand then? Expensive or I think he was very happy to do it. He collages, which was kind of at the same
Having worked at a Polish propa- of the most iconic fashion photogra- what year. I got very good marks with cheap? proposed two images – the Indian and time as when Hockney was doing his
ganda agency and art directed Ti y Ja, phy ever made. As such, to immediate- Roman. But I was into typography – FS: It had always been a pretty luxuri- the Michelangelo – which we showed as Polaroids.
a fashion magazine which he format- ly follow in Bourdin’s footsteps could I’d chosen Paul Gabor1 to be my thesis ous brand. Charles Jourdan’s speciali- mock-ups to Jourdan.
ted along the lines of its Western equiv- have been an especially intimidating lecturer, and Roman was already very ty had always been the heel – that was TL: The two campaigns generated a
alents like Elle – in 1963 Cieslewicz brief. Yet Cieslewicz proved to be an much in demand by so many others. their strength and their trademark. TL: And they understood the work large variety of images though. When
moved to Europe, eager to see how his inspired choice, as the Polish artist’s Then I started at M.A.F.I.A.2 The Jourdan heeled pump was a clas- straight away? Roman presented his first season to
work would stand up against its “neon appropriation of paintings by the Old sic – it was the Louboutin of its day. Of FS: Yes. With Roman we’d decided to Jourdan, were they happy?
lights.” Working from a studio in sub- Masters, and playful use of composition TL: Did they still have [the supermar- course, that was before the ‘80s, when keep the space for the shoe inside the FS: Yes, it was very successful. We won
urban Paris, he began refining his aes- and scale, resulted in some of the most ket chain] Prisunic as a client then at things started changing and they lost image in relation to the Bourdin cam- lots of awards. It was wonderful.
thetic, with its uncanny composition- uniquely arresting – and certainly left- M.A.F.I.A.? their direction… they did a design for a paign. It’s very interesting keeping the
al imbalances and dialogue between field – imagery to ever be commissioned FS: No, they had Yves Saint Laurent shoe that was more mainstream and it scale of the shoe – and it’s quite mod- TL: I think it’s one of the most beau-
the hand-made and the mechanical. by a fashion brand. and Absorba; they were the big ones totally ruined the brand. They launched est in the world of advertising. We want- tiful ad campaigns of its time. Did
He soon caught the attention of Peter Cieslewicz worked his magic from at the time. They also had Les 3 Suiss- a ready-to-wear line which was in a way ed to maintain that relationship; so the Roman meet with Jourdan?
Knapp, the then art director of Elle, a small atelier in Malakoff, a suburb es3. At that time – this was the funny nonsense; it wasn’t their craft. shoe would be a detail within. FS: No not all, it was me who took the

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Retrospective Roman Cieslewicz

mock-ups to them. I went to Malakoff a magazine that was called Ty i Ja [You things out and then there was no ques- TL: And the size? you could share with us? hand-drawn sketch and blew it up – that
[a suburb south of Paris] to see Roman. and Me]. He really liked that. tion of throwing anything away. He CPC: They came in different sizes. CPC: What I can tell you is that at that was fun. No other fashion people after
just amassed everything; I could never time he was working very hard; he was that though. He worked a lot in every
TL: Did he have carte blanche? TL: Did you have to present Roman’s throw anything away. TL: Did he ever change the size of the very prolific. And he worked alone. For possible direction. He was prolific. But
FS: Yes of course. work before you started work on the elements he’d cut out? Did he ever example the Beaubourg [The Pompidou at the same time you didn’t really notice
Jourdan campaign? TL: Was he methodical in his organisa- enlarge them? Centre] catalogue, he did on his own. that he partied too. He wasn’t obsessed.
TL: So for two seasons you saw Roman, FS: Yes, of course. He’d done lots of tion of everything? CPC: No, not when they were photo- He worked all night. I would sometimes He enjoyed it.
but only for the project? things, but we still had to present his CPC: Oh yes, very much so. He was like montages – they were almost always help him. The texts would come on rolls FS: [To Chantal] How old was he when
FS: Yes, only for that. I was quite intimi- work – that’s normal though. I mean he a computer. I gave his archives to the practically the original elements. When of paper and we had to stick them onto he died?
dated to be in front of my former teach- wasn’t super well known in that milieu. IMEC [Institut Mémoire de l’édition he worked in black and white, for his cardboard. He did everything himself. CPC: Sixty-six. He was young. It was
er. I was young. I was just starting out CPC: He was starting to become well Contemporaine] where everything is montages or for his poster maquettes, He had an assistant occasionally. in 1996, nearly 20 years ago. [To Frank]
then – I was 27 years old. I’d spent three known. It was a time that was very pro- visible. There’s going to be a big exhibi- he used to play around with them more He was very vibrant, very fun – I don’t
years at M.A.F.I.A. where I’d been lific for him. I remember at the time tion at the Musée des Arts Décorifs in – transform the elements and change TL: Did he cut using scissors? know if you found him funny – but he
more of an assistant. He was very kind he didn’t stop, his posters, catalogues, Paris, in 2016 using his archives. They the size. CPC: Yes always scissors and Kleer was very funny.
but he was still my teacher and I was books, expositions of his own work and are truly incredible – I also donated FS: Just looking at the photos I’d tak- Tak, which damaged the original copies FS: Yes. I was intimidated by him but he
very respectful of him and his work. so on… some of it to the modern art museum en with the photographer, when you terribly. But he wasn’t interested in the always had something kind to say. He
in Grenoble. look at the light it’s completely inte- originals; it was the final print that inter- was super sophisticated which went per-
TL: This is a question for both of you, TL: Did Roman know who Charles grated, it’s super well done. So even in ested him. Roman would put the origi- fectly with his image and his work.
Frank and Chantal. We know that Jourdan was? TL: Do you know, for example with a his research he had to find just the right nals to the side but if they appeared in CPC: I’ve never met anyone like him
Roman had worked at Elle with Peter FS: Yes. It was a big brand and a good subject like this, how he would work on light according to the leg he’d chosen. the press sometimes he would cut them since, he was extremely joyous but at
Knapp – what was his relationship one. And he knew Bourdin’s work. it? Was he instantly inspired? out, put them in a frame and sign them. the same time very nostalgic. He went
TL: And when he delivered it to you He’d sign the prints. For him that was from one emotion to the other; it’s a
was there a story to go with it? He gave the oeuvre. He was more interested by very Slavic characteristic.
‘Sometimes he would sign his work if it appeared it a title, so I guess maybe there was –
Roman spoke a lot didn’t he…
the work that was shared.
TL: Were you one of his pupils?
in the press. For him that was the oeuvre. He was FS: Yes, but he didn’t sell his thing.
TL: No that’s not what I meant…
TL: Frank, after Jourdan did you ever
work with Roman again?
CPC: No, not at all. I met him at a par-
ty in 1979. And I lived with him from
more interested in the work that was shared.’ FS: He’d make a joke…
CPC: He collected quotes, lots of them
FS: No. But it’s hard to use the same
style for another brand.
1980 onwards. For me, his work doesn’t
age. Every time I see it in an exhibi-
and would invent titles – he loved doing tion, it remains so fresh and alive, very
with fashion and photography of that TL: Did he admire it? FS: I think he did the project quick- that, even before he had started work- TL: And did he have any other fashion modern and current. He was so natural
nature? Because 80 percent of his work CPC: Yes. I’m pretty sure that he worked ly. Roman was into photomontages ing on a piece. He often made a mon- clients after that? in his work – he had just the right bal-
is more cultural than commercial… with Bourdin at Elle or Vogue too. because they were part of his personal tage because of a title he already had. CPC: He did something for Vuitton. ance. Towards the end it became more
Chantal Petit-Cieslewicz: For him it work too, so then he re-used the idea for Not a campaign, but he did a catalogue radical and political. During his life-
was the same. He could do both at once TL: Were the Jourdan images used Jourdan. It came from a similar series TL: That corresponds with the surre- which had images, photomontages. time, he set in motion a whole school of
without any problem. He worked for outside of women’s magazines, on that he was doing at the time… alist school, with the cadavre exquise 4 He also did a campaign for Galeries design. Today, I still see images which
quite a long time at Elle – he was artis- posters? and so on… Do you have any anecdotes Lafayette for which he he took a small are directly influenced by his work.
tic director at one point – and then at FS: No. They were in all the fashion TL: The images are so complex – they
M.A.F.I.A. he did work for Galeries magazines though. draw us into a rarefied culture that few
Lafayette. He also worked for Vogue. people refer to. At the time you get the
At Elle he worked with Peter Knapp TL: So, Chantal, how did he amass his impression that it would have been done
for a while, and at Vogue with Antoine iconography, these cutout images? without asking too many questions.
Kieffer, the artistic director. But it was CPC: He had incredible archives. He FS: Well it was only Jourdan who did it.
at Elle he really made a mark. had files with themes and he had entire I’m talking about adverts. For editorials
1. Paul Gabor (1913–1992) was a Hun- vertisements for the French supermar- 3. Les 3 Suisses is a French mail order ferings) to compose a sequence or im-
walls for these archives. there were totally crazy things. There garian graphic designer known for his ket Prisunic, and in addition to Ciesle- company founded in 1932 that special- age. The name itself was coined from
TL: So he liked fashion then? were also daring advertisements done typographic approach and poster com- wicz, their collaborators included the izes in the sale of make-up, clothes, the phrase, “Le cadavre exquis boi-
positions often informed by Bauhaus likes Helmut Newton, Sarah Moon homeware and electronics. ra le vin nouveau” – the first sentence
CPC: He didn’t make any particular TL: Did they come from magazines, at M.A.F.I.A. for Saint Laurent. architecture. and the interior designer Andrée Put- created when the Surrealists employed
hierarchical distinction in the things books…? man. Best known for the 1977 adver- 4. Cadavre exquise refers to a Surreal- the technique at André Breton’s Par-
2. M.A.F.I.A. is a well-regarded Pa- tising campaigns for Yves Saint Lau- ist technique of assembling a collec- is home.
he did. He started in that domain CPC: Everywhere, there were piles TL: When you say he worked quickly,
risian advertising agency founded in rent’s Opium and Rive Gauche fra- tion of words or images. The method
when he arrived in Paris, and even of magazines everywhere – his stu- what is quickly for a collage like that? 1968. In the early 1970s, M.A.F.I.A. grances, the agency was sold to BD- involves collaborators making contri-
back in Poland where he’d worked on dio was invaded by magazines. He cut FS: I don’t know, a day? created a series of groundbreaking ad- DP in 1986. butions (concealed from previous of-

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Behind the scenes Hermès

Bali Barret takes us inside

the Hermès colour kitchen.

By Thomas Lenthal
Photographs by Antoine Seiter

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Behind the scenes Hermès

Hermès launched its first carré [silk label in 1999). Inviting System into her at so many things without even really
scarf] in 1937, following a century of office and studio, high above Hermès knowing why – I guess I’m searching for
making leather harnesses and bridles legendary flagship store on Paris’ rue du an emotional reaction.
for European nobility. Featuring a Faubourg Saint-Honoré, she discusses
group of woman playing a board game the complexities and contradictions of And these references could be photo-
around a table, the Jeu des Omnibus an industrial process determined by graphs, paintings or fabrics, right?
et Dames Blanches scarf marked the intuition, why certain colours are pop- Exactly. Even architecture – anything
beginning of a new adventure for Her- ular in certain countries, and how we visual. I question everything that has
mès: colour. This was a proposition that are now entering a cycle of non-colour. caught my attention. For the silks, we
would require its own factory, estab- have to work with a very wide spectrum
lished near Lyon the same year, and a As the Artistic Director of the Women’s of colours because we produce 12 dif-
product offering that would become Universe at Hermès, you are respon- ferent colour ways per design, and there
as emblematic of Hermès as its iconic sible for the carrés – the iconic silk are around 30 artworks.
orange boxes. scarves – which are celebrated not only
Besides the iconic orange of the box- for their inimitable designs but also for So that’s 360 colourways per season?
es, Hermès’ approach to colour is far their arresting use of colour. Please Yes. Sometimes there are up to forty
from straightforward. Over 75,000 col- could you explain the process – how do printing frames on a scarf, 40 shades of
ours are held in their records, each of these colours come into being? colour, so you really do need an enor-
which came into being through a pro- Seventy-five thousand colours have mous wealth of colours. Given that the
cess as complex as it is kaleidoscopic; been created since we started printing spectrum is so vast — there are always
relying as much on the subjective inter- Hermès scarves in 1937. 75,000! With blues, greens, yellows and reds – the

pretations of the human eye as they every season and every new colour, the question is, which specific ones? Even-
do on the science of colour theory – spectrum broadens. It’s almost some- tually it becomes a question of how to
indeed, you’d be hard pressed to find a thing verging on infinity, it’s crazy. The put the colours together. What harmo-
Pantone colour card in this most Borge- colourists will look to find whether the nies am I drawn to? I attempt to under-
sian of archives. colours in the scales we propose to them stand why a certain combination inter-
Eighty years on, Hermès carrés now already exist, but it’s rare that a colour ests or pleases me. Afterwards, I start to
account for 15 percent of the compa- is ever exactly the same – we’re obvious- group things together by family.
ny’s €945 million revenue. Such is the ly working with subtlety here, in nuanc-
house’s consummate use of colour, it is es of millimetres. If we need a slightly What do you mean by ‘families’?
estimated that one of their silk scarves redder red, we’ll make it. We work on Chromatic1 families. I put things togeth-
are sold somewhere in the world eve- the creation of new colours and colour er, stop, take a look at them, think again
ry 25 seconds. Overseeing this product scales around a year and half before a and reassemble them. This happens sev-
division which releases four collections collection comes out, to the rhythm of eral times. There are things that remain
of 30 designs every season – and reis- two collections per year. In the begin- monochrome and others that are very
sue classics such as the Brides de Gala ning, the process of colour creation is multi-coloured, and progressively the
in multiple colourways – is Bali Barret, very intuitive; I give myself a few days options are reduced and I start to ana-
the house’s wonderfully titled Artistic to do nothing but research images and lyse what I’ve created. Is it modern,
Director of the Women’s Universe at colour ambiances. It’s a process that’s flat, synthetic, handcrafted? Is it bright,
Hermès (Barret had previously been a anything but cerebral. I look through all faded, greyish, nightish… what’s it all
design assistant at several Parisian fash- of my book archives, I visit other book- about? It’s not just about the colours,
ion houses before launching her own shops, and I just go for walks. I look but the mood; the atmosphere. It’s a Above and following pages: silk colour formula guides cataloguing the Hermès carrés archive.

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work I share with my right-hand man drawings and colours for the season. and he follows up with his own exper-
within the house’s silk métier [artisanal I should also probably talk about the tise. Just like his father and grandfather
department]. Generally, we do four or ‘Comité de Couleur’; it’s a very serious before him, Pierre-Alexis has a particu-
five colour cards. Sometimes they will affair here. lar affection and great eye for scarves
take us nowhere but we’ll still allow our- and colours. He is what I’d call a colour
selves the opportunity to explore things Yes, what’s that? addict too.
– nothing is forbidden. Then, we’ll make At the time of Jean-Louis Dumas2,
a fairly strict decision based on the spir- a committee for colour was created So there is still an informal commit-
it and how the colours are going to be which worked under his supervision tee of sorts, with no absolute guardian
used, and pass it onto the attention and in collaboration with the Lyon colour- over the chromatic field. You’d almost
expertise of the colourists. ist team. For many years, Jean-Louis expect there to be – many houses have
was the artistic director of the carrés house colour scales which are not infi-
At this point is it a colour scale or a and he oversaw the draughtsmen, art- nitely adaptable.
mood-board? ists and colourists in Lyon. To work on It’s an in-house joke to say ‘Hermès
It’s much more precise than a mood- the colours, he established a commit- Red’, because we don’t even agree on
board. It’s like a chest of drawers con- tee which included Leïla Menchari3, the what the Hermès Red is! It’s amusing,
taining manuals for each of the col- house’s ‘high priestess of colour’, and but it’s also quite revealing. Everyone
ours or images that explain why I like Tan Giudicelli, a former ready-to-wear here has their own personal vision of
a certain image, composition, or inter- designer at Hermès in the 1980s. When what that red would be. Even the Her-
action of colours. At this point, we’ve Pierre-Alexis Dumas took over from mès orange box undoubtedly has 12 dif-
started to establish a colour scale; we’ve his father to become Artistic Director ferent oranges – it’s always much more

selected images for each story and given of Hermès, he handed Leïla the baton defined on paper than on silk. There are
names to every harmony. and she still presides over this ‘Comi- really no limits here. In the whole pro-
té de Couleur’. Leïla has an extraor- cess there’s a crazy level of precision.
How does your work with colour influ- dinary eye and a huge knowledge of
ence the rest of the house? colour, and she was initially quite pat- What do you think made you the ideal
There’s no obligation for anyone to take ronising towards me, saying things like; candidate for this position?
from our work, but if someone asks for ‘Who is this young whippersnapper try- No idea. I’d never thought about it. The
our colours, we share them, voilà! ing to tell me about colour?’ I eventual- idea of entrusting me with the carrés
ly got her blessing, and we get on well was a strange one as I never used print
So there is no real formal presentation together, even though my way of work- in my own fashion collections apart
of colours that you share with all the ing with colour isn’t the same as hers — from Liberty prints and stripes. The
departments, right? everyone has their own methods. These only thing I can say is that I’ve always
No. Each internal métier has its own days, she still has an open invitation for had this obsession with colour and har-
voice, even if we do happen to share our Tuesday morning colour meetings, mony, and I would show my collections
our inspirations. Creation at Hermès is and occasionally comes by; she still has chromatically. I would have all my fab-
about freedom. that impressive ‘perspective’, it’s in her rics dyed too. When Pierre-Alexis
blood. When she’s here we’ll smoke a Dumas first proposed the role to me,
So how do they find out? cigarette, drink some coffee and look I thought it was a great idea and was
I invite them to view our work. We ask at the carrés together. Pierre-Alexis filled with desire. He was very smart to
the silk colourists, who are based in also comes by all the time: I share the see something in me that I hadn’t even
Lyon, to come up to Paris and share the colour scale with him every season, realised was there myself. At that time,

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if I’d been asked to do anything else at before we develop the colour scales, as circumventing the occasional absence
Hermès – shoes, belts, clothes – I don’t the engraving process takes such a long of colour comprehension.
think it would have come to me as nat- time. The designs often have a link with
urally. Before I started working here, the theme of the year. Meaning that there are good draughts-
I really liked the classical, chromatic men who are no good at colour?
scale at Hermès, but I wanted to resolve These designs are selected from the Yes. I actually try to be completely
the gaping divide between the extreme drawings produced by the Hermès oblivious to the colours of the draw-
modernism and extreme classicism of draughtsmen, illustrators, or artists. ings we receive. I used to find it hard to
the house – to find a chromatic realism, How many draughtsmen do you cur- engage with a drawing without colour.
which became my vision. Coming from rently work with? Now, 15 years later, I can detach myself
fashion design, I was conscious and con- About 50 working regularly with us. from colours.
cerned with how a season needed to tell
a cohesive story. I leant towards the use And how many drawings does each Wouldn’t it be easier for you if the
of colour as a tool for structure and sto- draughtsman propose? draughtsmen just worked in grey scale?
rytelling. I also watched how the col- Some propose only one, others can pro- There are some designers who have
ourists worked in very intuitive ways. I pose five to 10, but it’s not only propo- actually become carré draughtsmen –
think one of the principal reasons for sitions from their side. It is all about a they have a sublime hand and have nev-
the success over the past ten years is the long creative process achieved through er worked in colour. I would buy their
creation of a vocabulary of colour that is constant dialogue with the draughts- drawings in black and white, and then
both systematic and visceral. Colour is a men about their designs; the drawing, add in the colour. Most of the time we
fatal weapon. It’s all about visual reac- composition and storytelling are devel- want the draughtsmen to colour them

tion and emotion – it is something that oped together. This process — which in though – some of them do a beauti-
can be perfectly ordinary or complete- can take anywhere between a month ful job. Ironically, sometimes when a
ly extraordinary. An Hermès carré is a and a year — takes place in a kind of draughtsmen is a good colourist, their
signature which evolves. What makes it spaceship we call ‘Studio Dessin’, which drawing can almost be a bit ugly when
so special is the combination between is the heart of creation for silk design. first placed onto silk. It’s really disap-
colours, design and silk. Of course, we only buy the drawings we pointing. However, once you rework the
like! We reject a lot as well. colours, it can be explosive! Sometimes
Do you use Pantones? I need to see something ugly to under-
No. It’s either swatches of paper, silk, Do the draughtsmen give you all their stand that it can become something
thread or leather. drawings in colour? beautiful. It’s weird but true.
Yes, but they are not involved in any of
You mentioned before that there were the next steps; they entrust us with their I understand. It allows you to have an
30 new designs created each season. drawings. Colour is unassociable from objective viewpoint.
Yes, although it’s actually more like 40 the design. Colour is the enlightener of I was pretty minimalist before join-
as we also have several re-editions per the drawing; the passage from paper to ing Hermès. But I’ve since become the
season. Altogether it’s around 800 new silk is the real birth of a design. queen of multicolour: working on oth-
references per year, if you include the er people’s compositions really opened
different range of colours. So, they will have worked on a colour up my colour spectrum. I like appro-
scale that might have nothing to do priating something that isn’t mine to
How do you select the designs? with what you end up using? begin with and getting my head around
We choose the designs almost two years Yes. In truthpart of my job is about the logic of it. That’s what I find really

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fun and exciting. To have real talent for what can really influence me is light. the job. The actual colouring process is
colour, you need to have a photographic Under electric lights, there are reflec- enchanting and after a while you start
eye, to be able to foresee how something tions which affect your colour vision – I finding everything beautiful. At Her-
on paper will look once printed. Our hate it and it makes me lose confidence mès, you mustn’t ever forget that you
colourists don’t use computers: they in my perspective. have to surprise, to do the opposite of
do things manually, photographical- what is expected as a form of freedom.
ly, with abstract visual formulas. That The paradox is that in a shop when you
is how our colourists still work, even chose your carré it’s under a very yel- So you have to be constantly question-
the youngest ones. Of course, now we low spotlight. And it is all very subjec- ing your vision…
have tools that allow us to check those tive work – do you feel your subjec- The difference between now and when
abstract visions on computers. tivity becomes stabilised with time so I first started is that back then, I nev-
that something which bothered you on er really asked myself, ‘Do I really like
Is everything prototyped? Are there Tuesday would still bother you the fol- it?’ Now I ask myself this question all
not tests with watercolours on paper? lowing Friday? Or, would you say that the time. If there is even a shadow of a
No, we don’t use watercolours. We eval- your subjectivity or feeling toward doubt, we’ll drop it.
uate all colour combinations directly on something might change direction,
silk. The colourists work with their col- even after you’ve spent hours on reach- You can get drunk on colour…
our scales to create formulas for eve- ing a conclusion? …and on the satisfaction gleaned from a
ry colour. Then, if they need compli- Because I do so many things, I may for- beautiful object. I don’t want to fall into
mentary colours, they’ll get them from get that I had said something a week that. It’s not enough for it to be beauti-
the colour charts in the archive. Our before and repeat it – it’s great when ful; it has to have something extra which

Tuesday morning meetings allow us that happens and usually I’ve got a makes you want to grab it and run away.
to work on the colour combinations on pretty stable vision. But other times, That’s the feeling that I want to provoke.
each scarf and fine-tune the printing. It like today, for example, I saw a draw-
can be very challenging from a techni- ing called À La Plume that’s by a young An instant, powerful desire.
cal point of view. It’s very subtle work. draughtswoman called Florence Man- Yes, it can’t just be beautiful – it has to
It would be strange to record those lik. The mock-up is amazing, but it’s be intense, it has to be extreme. My big-
work sessions, because even though turning out to be unbelievably compli- gest challenge right now though, is fig-
we understand each other 100 percent, cated to colour. It took a long time to uring out how to do colour and non-col-
to an outsider it would seem a crazy, find the right combination of colours. our at the same time.
abstract dialogue with lots of unknown At first, I thought the colourist hadn’t
words. It’s a true connoisseur’s conver- been able to create a colour scheme that Can you elaborate?
sation. I love that work, even though it’s corresponded to the original spirit of There are cycles in colour. Right now,
actually rather exhausting and can last the drawing. Later, I realised I was the we’re actually coming out of a very col-
up to four or five hours. It’s a rejuvenat- one who’d become too attached to the ourful cycle – where the brighter a print,
ing bath of colour every week! original spirit of the drawing, it’s col- the more applause it got – to a place
ouring and principles – I’m very Car- where there is a desire for less colour.
What kind of light do you work in? tesian4 about my loyalty to a draught-
I try and work mainly with daylight, but sperson – and that in fact the colourist How long has this cycle lasted?
in winter it’s hard so we have to use elec- had been able to liberate something. About ten years. There are moments
tric lights which I hate. In fact, when you I’m still going around in circles about it of greater or lesser desire for colour in
asked about the stability of my opinion, though! My real fear is falling asleep on general – at least in terms of the use of

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colour. Right now I want to use colour So they’ll find it in the files and also in Yes. We re-edited Jeu des Omnibus et
a bit differently. I’ve realised I’m wear- their minds! Dames Blanches in 2007 for our 70th
ing less colourful scarves these days and Yes, in what we refer to as the ‘colour anniversary in a 70cm x 70cm format.
looking for something with a little more kitchen’ – they literally cook up the col-
sobriety. But we are talking about Her- ours in big pots using the colour formu- How do you select the re-editions?
mès scarves, and as we have to produce las – it’s complete alchemy. I refer to our archives to see what exists
colour, how do we resolve this question? in terms of colour. If something catch-
It’s something I’m working on… Is this system richer than Pantones? es my eye, then we select it for a re-edit
I hate Pantones; our work is about hues. and recreate it. Sometimes if we’re
Ok. So, how many colourists do you struggling with a colour, well look at
have working for you? Tell about the history of the carrés and the archives. I re-read the archives eve-
Ten. colour composition at Hermès. ry season and observe, I look at all of
The very first scarf — the Jeu des Omni- our Brides de Gala. It’s very instinctive.
Are they trained exclusively in-house bus et Dames Blanches — was created
at Hermès or have they been trained at by Robert Dumas in 1937. Dumas was How many colourways exist for Brides
schools prior to arriving? fascinated by the self-imposed rigor of de Gala?
They are dedicated to the house. Some printing on silk. Forty to 50.
of them have been to art school or stud-
ied graphic design. Others learnt about How many combinations were there of Is the Brides de Gala something that
colour in-house in the factories, much that first scarf? Do we know? you re-edit every season?
like artisans; the old-school way. Very few. There have been nine colours. No, not at all.

Where are they based? When did it become so exponential? It comes out when it comes out?
The work is divided between two sites After the war, in the 1950s, was when it There are no rules or restrictions in
in the Lyon area. Every week, two or became a real and continuous produc- our choices. Having these archives is a
three colourists come up to Paris. We tion. Robert Dumas adored drawing treasure. We’ve brought out the Brides
also go down to Lyon two or three times and had a friend with a printing factory de Gala for this summer in a giant pink
a season to work there. whom he asked to print his scarves. If he and green version – it’s sublime. But
liked a drawing, then he would have it before that I’ve also played with the
Just a little technical question: what is made into a scarf and put it in the shop. Brides de Gala in many other ways: it
the first thing they do when they receive When he saw that they were successful, has been dip-dyed, embroidered, indigo
your colour schemes? Do they try to he just started doing more. It was very printed, used on bigger or smaller for-
locate the colours, or do they reconsti- empirical. Although designing was his mats also, for bandanas…
tute them? real passion, he could not realistically
They create formulas for the colours of do everything, so he called on talent- How many other iconic designs like
the season. ed specialists, among them Hugo Gryg- Brides de Gala exist at Hermès?
kar, who went on to sketch the famous There are many other super powerful
Does it take a long time to find the spe- Brides de Gala 5 in 1957. He also com- designs. You can see how there is enor-
cific colour? missioned Cassandre6 for the designs mous potential here for colour creation.
Yes, but the colour charts are organ- known as Perspective and Littérature. Yet, the art of colour lies in how you use
ised by families of colour. The colour- it. Where the Hermès scarf stands out is
ists also have internal libraries and ref- Would you ever re-edit a 1937 model in with the quality and depth of its colours
erence points. its original chromatic scale? and compositions. They are unique.

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Do countries buy scarves in very spe- Often in fashion, you find that over the Which other artists stand out?
cific colours? Could you predict what years a designer will establish a rather Recently we worked with an Irish
colours a certain market would take? restricted palette. Even for Yves Saint abstract artist called Richard Gorman.
Yes. I like to know who bought what. Laurent, it remained a box of paints. I came across a picture by him quite by
Colour sensitivity is deeply cultural. Clothes and scarves are very differ- chance on the Internet, and the har-
Generally speaking, bright colours are ent. As a designer, I did have a restrict- mony really pleased me. He’s a pretty
the most popular. However, the Japa- ed palette, which was vital. Here we’re unknown artist who lives in Milan and
nese like to buy paler colours because it working with an abundance of colours. is about 60 years old. He has a gallery
looks pretty with their skin tone. Amer- There’s nothing like it. in Dublin, so I asked them to send me
icans prefer classic combinations, with any books they had about him. I started
lots of orange, gold and black. Everyone Even though there is an infinite spec- tripping out about his work when I real-
adores a scarf with lots of blues; those trum, there has also been a sensitivi- ised that he was totally obsessed with
are big classics. The crazy thing about ty to certain colours over the last ten colour. There was something special
Hermès is this almost megalomaniacal to 12 years. about his harmonies, so I asked him if
use of all those colours, it’s absurd! It’s inevitable that some colours are we could collaborate on a scarf togeth-
habitual, which is both good and bad. er. He designed the Squeeze carré for
The most is 40 colours for one scarf? I’m constantly searching for new tech- Spring/Summer.
48 or 49, I think. We beat a record. niques or combinations. I never want to
be blasé about what I create, and that’s Did it have multiple colourways?
What was it for? hard. I think what inspires me most are Yes, we did seven. They’re beautiful.
For a scarf called Waconi by Antoine all the great colour obsessives, the great What other artists can I give you…?
Tzapoff – it has a portrait of a Native artists like Josef Albers7 – I can look at Jean-Michel Alberola, Claude Vial-
American woman with all the nuances his colour scales forever. lat, Peter Doig, David Hockney are all
of her skin and the landscape on it. extraordinary colourists, who frequent-
Albers’ approach was less emotional, ly inspire me. When I work with artists
After so many years at Hermès, how do almost scientific… yet it certainly pro- like Hiroshi Sugimoto for Hermès Edi-
you avoid repeating yourself? vokes emotions. teur8 I try to put myself in their minds
I keep files on every season. There are I find Albers’ work very emotional: he and imagine how they treated the col-
things that I don’t use one season that worked on the principle that colour ours and composition. Ultimately, I like
I may save for the next. Usually, I don’t interactions create emotion, almost like experiences where I go into the body or
like what I’ve put aside. I need novelty. a doctor who gives out a prescription. mind of someone else.

1. The term chromatic derives from Jean-Paul Gaultier. Under Jean-Lou- In Passions of the Soul, Descartes es- donym Cassandre. In 1961, Cassan-
the Greek word for colour, chroma. is’ stewardship, Hermès’ annual turn- poused the dualistic nature of life dre designed the iconic Yves Saint
Chromatic colours are those in which over grew from $50m in the 1970s, to and consciousness, and his belief that Laurent logo and monogram which
one particular hue, or wavelength, $2.5bn in 2010. the mind and soul are separate to the broke conventions by blending letter-
of light dominates. For example, red body. In the context of Bali Barret’s forms and mixing incompatible type-
and blue are chromatic colours, while answer, “Cartesian” refers to a dualis- face features.
3. Leïla Menchari is Director of Décor
white, black and grey are achromatic. tic loyalty: she is either steadfastly loy-
for Hermès’ flagship store on rue du
al to a draughtsperson, or not at all. 7. Josef Albers (1888-1976) was a Ger-
Faubourg Saint-Honoré. Since 1978
2. Jean-Louis Dumas (1938-2010) was man artist who worked at the Bauhaus
she has overseen the store’s four sea-
the chairman of the Hermès Group, 5. Released in 1957, the Brides de Ga- and emigrated to America in 1933 af-
sonal window displays, often consid-
and Artistic Director of the house la is Hermès’ best-selling carré of all ter the institute closed under Nazi
ered the most sophisticated and theat-
from 1976-2006. The great-grandson time. Designed by Hugo Grygkar, the pressure. He is best known for his se-
rical in luxury retail.
of Thierry Hermès, the founder of the scarf features two symmetrical leather ries of prints and paintings, ‘Hom-
company, Jean-Louis Dumas is cred- bridles – a reference to Hermès’ ori- age to the Square’, a rigorous study
ited with reviving the house in the late 4. Cartesian is a reference to the gins as high-end saddlemakers — and of chromatic interactions informed
20th century through diversifying its French philosopher and mathemati- requires 13 screens to print. by the theories published in his in-
offerings in travel and leather goods cian Rene Descartes (1596-1650), of- fluential treatise Interaction of Color
– he was also responsible for launch- ten credited as the father of modern 6. Adolphe Jean-Marie Mouron (1901- (1963).
ing the iconic ‘Birkin’ handbag – and Western philosophy, and the man who 1968) was a Ukranian-French painter,
for the audacious signing of design gave the world the maxim “cogito er- affichiste [poster artist] and graphic 8. Hermès’ online gallery presenting
talent such as Martin Margiela and go sum” [“I think, therefore I am”]. designer who worked under the pseu- editions of works of art on silk.

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The edit Stefano Pilati

‘I’ve always
talked about
male vanity;
and now men
shave their
eyebrows.’
Stefano Pilati on suits versus sportswear,
and the shifting male psyche.

By Jonathan Wingfield Matt rubberised technical single-breasted mac.

Single-pleat cavalry trousers in Harris Tweed.
Photographs by Pieter Hugo Merino wool jumper.
Chelsea boot with French calf, rubber sole and leather strap.
Sittings Editor: Jerry Stafford All from Ermenegildo Zegna Fall/Winter 2015/2016.

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The edit Stefano Pilati

Menswear is booming! So we’re con- perfect ambassador for YSL’s mod- System travelled to Berlin to ques-
stantly told. On one hand, the sector is ern menswear, but he soon became the tion Pilati on the changing face of mens-
generating some of the fashion indus- poster boy for a new era of, as he calls wear and how he’s helping Zegna navi-
try’s most significant financial results, it, “male vanity”. Bearded, never flashy, gate these changes. And always one to
thanks, in part, to a sizeable demo- yet self-assured, Pilati looked as memo- enjoy the visceral nature of dressing up,
graphic of Asian men embracing ‘met- rable in three-piece tailored suits as he he agreed to model the latest Zegna col-
rosexuality’. On the other, menswear did Comme des Garçons track pants. lection for South African fine art pho-
designers are currently experiencing a The YSL era was nevertheless a tur- tographer, Pieter Hugo.
period of creative liberation, redefining bulent time for Pilati, with his forward-
notions of masculine style and identity, thinking and conceptual take on the You’ve often said you design menswear
with a notable shift towards more cas- hallowed Parisian house ruffling the with yourself in mind. So when you’re
ual, sports-influenced garments. Thus, feathers of sceptics and traditionalists. designing for Zegna, the world’s big-
we find ourselves with historically ‘clas- When, in 2013, it was announced he gest menswear business, does that put
sic’ brands proposing skate skeakers, was joining Italian house Ermenegil- a lot of pressure on your own personal
printed t-shirts and performance out- do Zegna – the biggest menswear busi- taste and wardrobe needs?
erwear where only a few seasons ago, ness in the world – as Head of Design I’m obviously aware that whatever I
they were continuing to champion a of Ermenegildo Zegna Couture, and might experiment with on myself isn’t
more traditional menswear aesthetic Creative Director of the house’s new- necessarily going to be valid for every-
and lifestyle. ly revitalised womenswear label Agno- body else. You know, I am a 50-year-old
This begs the question: are menswear na, it immediately felt like a neat fit. A man, sat here wearing floral pants and,
brands aiming to capture younger con- major manufacturer of luxury textiles frankly, not many other 50 year olds can

‘I’ve supported sportswear for a long time but it

doesn’t give men status. The rise of casual wear
shows we are suffering a paradox around luxury.’
sumers? Or are they proposing that and suiting for brands like Gucci and get away with that. This is where I have
older men – those generally with more Tom Ford, the company’s own Erme- to take a step back and realise that when
financial muscle – dress in more youth- negildo Zegna label provides classic tai- I’m designing for Zegna, my own evolv-
ful ways? In turn, is this shift towards loring for men the world over. ing tastes need to be grounded in some
more casual menswear attire affecting Pilati’s appointment answered Zeg- level of objectivity.
the sales and status of classic men’s tai- na’s need to align itself with the crea-
loring? And what is all of this doing to tive renaissance at the heart of con- But the influence of your personal style
the male psyche? temporary menswear, and presumably has certainly been felt over the years.
We turned to Stefano Pilati to answer the designer’s long-standing passion Well, I’ve been sporting a beard for 20
these questions. A pure product of for fabric, Made in Italy, made him the years and now everyone seems to have
1980s Italian fashion, Pilati scaled the obvious candidate. Installing himself one; I’ve been wearing short-legged
industry via a deep-rooted apprecia- and a core design team in Berlin, Pila- pants for 20 years and now everyone
tion of cloth and fabric. Rising through ti retreated from the public eye and let wears them; and I’ve been talking about
the ranks of Cerruti, Armani, Prada his work for Ermenegildo Zegna Cou- male vanity for 15 years and these days,
and Miu Miu, it was his eight years in ture speak for itself. Universally well men shave their eyebrows. So with time
Paris at Yves Saint Laurent (initially received, his collections have pushed you can see how my personal instincts
under Tom Ford, then as overall Cre- the brand into new territories via high might get filtered down to a wider pub-
ative Director for women’s and mens- concepts, exquisite and experimental lic. But it never starts with that ambition. Single-breasted mac in Harris Tweed with recycled plastic finishing.
wear) that brought him wider fashion fabrics, and a deconstruction of formal Single-pleat cavalry trousers in archive wool check.
Khaki scarf in merino wool.
recognition. Here was a designer whose menswear into something more chal- When you first arrived at Zegna, did Chelsea boot with French calf, rubber sole and leather strap.
personal style not only made him the lenging and representative of the times. you take the conscious decision of All from Ermenegildo Zegna Fall/Winter 2015/2016.

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The edit Stefano Pilati

translating your personal style towards To what extent does a menswear code of those who were dealing with
a global menswear proposition? designer have to understand the male the real money and real power. This was
As I said, for almost 20 years people psyche? the upper class basically saying, ‘We’re
have seemed to relate – or at least react It’s essential. Nowadays I find that almost blissfully unaware of what’s hap-
– to the way I dress. And they want to men’s rapport with fashion is under- pening to the middle classes.’
wear what I wear. So at some point I lined by paradox. Men want to feel as
had to take this into account and say to though they are acting individually in Besides strict tailoring, what other
myself, ‘Okay, so maybe let’s go for it: the way they dress, yet at the same time ways did upper class men distinguish
this is what I want to wear, this is what I they don’t want to be noticed too much. themselves?
like and now you can have it too.’ This They want a fresh look but they want to Alternatively, they just went totally nuts
seems to me more honest and natural follow vestimentary protocols. and started wearing silk shirts and gold
than engineering a self-imposed per- buckle sandals [laughs], almost cele-
sonality in order to market fashion, or You mentioned before that men now brating the fact that they could work
even market myself, which I’m not good shave their eyebrows. What have you from their mansions.
at doing. I can bring myself to the col- learnt about evolving male identi-
lection but I can’t really see myself try- ty: how men now see themselves, how What about your own rapport with
ing to create an entourage of acolytes clothes can bring about these shifts? wearing suits these days?
that will dress like me. I grew up in the 1980s: middle-class It is funny because when I started
men were working in banks and were working at Saint Laurent I was wearing
So who’s the man you design for? very respectable; there were individu- three-piece suits every day, and I loved
I’ve always designed for grown-up men. als with basic options to dress in certain it. Then it slowly dawned on me that I

‘Sure, fashion is frivolous – we’re not saving lives –

but I feel that at Zegna, exploring eco-sustainability
is more relevant than creating a rock star look.’
I’ve never been interested in addressing ways, but they had to wear a tie every didn’t quite feel myself anymore. I start-
youth culture through fashion. As far day. I remember that at one point, in ed to feel that I was looking older than
as I see it, young people need to create the second half of the eighties, these perhaps I should, and I kind of fell out of
fashion for themselves, by themselves. same men started going to work wear- love with the ritual of dressing in three-
You can’t be an older designer telling ing a polo neck, losing the tie – and that piece suits.
kids what to wear, that’s just an ego trip was already considered revolutionary.
beyond belief. This evolved into chinos and a jack- How did this shift affect your own
et, which pushed things even further. sense of status, if at all?
Yet isn’t that exactly what designers This shift from pure tailoring to more To tell you the truth, I didn’t like the
seem to be turning to these days — relaxed dressing triggered the shift idea that people were taking me more
menswear has never looked so sporty towards sportswear and outerwear and seriously simply because I was wear-
and youthful. leisurewear. ing a suit. I felt I needed to acquire that
I’d rather put myself out there – as the authority through what I was doing
vehicle, the opinion leader, the design- So it was predominantly a middle-class rather than the suit I was wearing. I
er, a 50-year-old man – to express my shift. know that sounds crazy coming from a
values and Zegna’s values and hope that Yes, and because this shift was so syn- Zegna perspective, but as I mentioned
men might connect with them. That is onymous with the middle classes, then before, my own evolving tastes have
Single-breasted jacket in high-density pink cotton velvet.
where the tailoring, the quality of the the very upper class had to distinguish been informed by many years of experi- Single-pleat cavalry trousers with elastic stirrup detail.
fabrics, the manufacturing, the new- themselves in different ways: for exam- mentation in clothing. Anyway, I decid- V-neck jumper in worsted merino wool.
Chelsea boot with French calf, rubber sole and leather strap.
ness, even the romanticism, all play a ple, you could confine yourself to the ed to abandon the suit… and it seems All from Ermenegildo Zegna Fall/Winter 2015/2016.
part in expressing this. strict protocol of tailoring, the dress that everyone else did the same. Grey cashmere scarf from Comme des Garçons.

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The edit Stefano Pilati

In favour of more casual wear? that means we can keep this level of lux- So why are we all wearing them?
Right now, I don’t exactly know where ury understanding high, but it is very Because we want comfort.
male identity is going. I have been a complicated now.
supporter of sportswear for a long, long Has comfort taken over from formal-
time, but this doesn’t give men status But what are you questioning here: the ity, authority, even elegance?
– and rich men want to show that they meaning of luxury or the need for lux- It clearly has.
have options and possibilities. Once ury?
again, it illustrates how we are now suf- I keep asking myself this question on a And do you think that is an irreversi-
fering a complete paradox around lux- daily basis. And to tell you the truth I ble shift? Every man wore a hat in the
ury fashion. don’t always end the day with answers. 1950s, but since the 1960s revolution
So my comfort zone is simply about that ritual has simply disappeared. Do
Luxury just seems to be a word that staying true to myself and true to Zeg- you think that the current ‘casual rev-
gets used in association with fashion – na. I feel I’m doing the right thing, and olution’ in menswear – if we can call it
any fashion – in an arbitrary manner. that it corresponds well to the brand I that – is an irreversible shift?
Yes. They are all apparently luxury work for. I would say so. I’d be surprised if it
brands and I cannot stand that any- wasn’t.
more. There is a side of me that rejects What role do you think the suit plays in
all that, yet another side of me actual- contemporary life? And what does that do to male identity
ly embraces it, in the sense that all this I think a suit still has the role it’s always on a broader level?
research at Zegna that I spend on the had; it has the role of being formal. It The suit remains a statement of fash-
culture of tailoring absolutely should is serious attire; a man in a suit always ion authority and it can be projected as

‘I’ve never been interested in addressing youth

culture through fashion. Young people need to
create fashion for themselves, by themselves.’
count for something; it should be con- has authority, he still has it. You can be something very sexy. But that doesn’t
sidered as a status symbol. But, you an employee at the post office or a bus mean that if you wear a duvet jacket or
know, the moment that you do some- driver, or you can be an auction bidder, a leather jacket you cannot be sexy. So
thing like that, then people want to sell wearing a suit shows authority, and that even the sex appeal projected through
it in 500 stores and be successful and is why I will always respect it, no matter men’s clothes is now far more eclectic –
influential; they want to introduce it to a what my personal fashion sensibility is it is quite random, as life is today, and
segment of the market that might com- at the moment. therefore more challenging.
prehend the word luxury but doesn’t
really care to embrace it. How do you feel about the migration of How does this shift in formality affect
so many classic – often Italian – brands you as a designer?
You mean, the middle classes? now presenting collections that are Principally, it gives me freedom. I
Right. The middle classes don’t give a either designed for a more youthful mean, what is the point of being a fash-
fuck about luxury. They want a good consumer, or proposing that elder men ion designer and only proposing suits,
quality/price rapport, they want to be dress more youthfully, more casually, shirts and ties? So this freedom leads
comfortable, they don’t necessarily more informed by streetwear? you to explore new possibilities: new
want to be seen, they don’t look for a Everyone talks about sportswear, but cuts and new fabrics; knitwear and
statement or great status in what they what does that actually mean? It basi- sportswear become very important,
wear – and they represent a big slice cally means we are all wearing duvet overcoats, shoes and extra accessories Single-breasted mac in translucent tweed-printed polyurethane with tweed binding.
of spending power. The reality is that jackets, god knows how many of them I take a new role. So from a designing Wide-leg military trousers with reversed waist in Harris Tweed.
Single-breasted jacket with darted volume pockets in wool archive check.
because we are addressing other coun- have. But I’m not convinced there’s any point of view it is not frustrating at all. Chelsea boot with French calf, rubber sole and leather strap.
tries with lots of money, notably China, real elegance in those garments. It is actually the opposite. All from Ermenegildo Zegna Fall/Winter 2015/2016.

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The edit Stefano Pilati

Part of Zegna’s allure, and certain- That’s quite an Italian thing, right? months, or eight months?’ That tactile
ly a significant part of its global busi- Well, the same school of thinking relationship with fabric still exists, but
ness, is the company’s prowess when it is at Armani, too; Giorgio Armani it’s become far more subliminal. These
comes to developing and manufactur- worked at Cerruti before setting up days, I force myself not to fall in love
ing fabrics. Just to go back in time for a his own company. So even if a pure with fabric research, because then you
moment, how did cloth and fabric play design studio – like the Cerruti one find yourself placing too much impor-
a specific part in your understanding in Paris – was probably more appeal- tance on something that people don’t
and appreciation of fashion as you were ing to me, the reality is that I had been really care about. You know, as long as
growing up? immersed straight away in a very hands- it is a nice colourful dress that you can
When I was 17 I quit school and decid- on approach to fashion, based on a real buy in Miami… But, you know, that’s
ed to do an internship at Cerruti. While understanding of fabric; which in turn fine, too. I can accept that. And to be
the main design office – what I proba- led me to understand how choices of honest, in menswear there still is that
bly considered to be the sexy part – was fabric could shape a fashion brand’s research element that men value, par-
based in Paris, the manufacturing and identity. Over the following years, this ticularly when you start to think about
diffusion departments were in Milan. took me first to work at Armani and performance outerwear garments.
The diffusion division was driven by then to Prada, as my ambition turned
tailoring and fabric, and my internship to becoming a full designer. It strikes me that the themes you’re
started by assisting the director of the exploring in your Zegna collections
specific department that selected fab- Were you hired as a designer at Prada? – science, industry, urbanism, pow-
rics. The suppliers would come in to I started as a fabric researcher, but all er, the ecology – seem like the themes
show us all the new fabrics and, part- the fabrics that I was selecting to show that men should all be exploring in our

‘Even the sex appeal projected through men’s

clothes is now far more eclectic – it could be a suit
or a duvet jacket. It’s quite random, as is life today.’
ly to teach me and partly to test me, my Miuccia [Prada] or Mr Bertelli were lives. Yet these themes seem almost
boss gave the task of putting dots on the very much in line with how I under- at odds with the realities of what most
fabrics that I liked the most. Quite nat- stood their research for the collection. menswear brands – and perhaps men
urally, I happened to choose the ones I was already considering design as well in general – seem preoccupied by. Do
that were perfect for the following sea- as fabric research. So everything came you feel that what you are proposing
son’s collection. Straight away, both my quite organically. is actually quite marginal even though
boss and the suppliers found it remark- it presents basic realities? And is that
able that someone so young had such Presumably the rapport between fab- marginalisation a luxury now?
a developed eye and a tactile sensibil- ric and pure design is key to your role That was what I was about to say; maybe
ity for this. at Zegna. in the luxury market these themes are
These days, the visual aspect of the marginalised. But to be luxurious we
What do you think informed that skill? clothes and the approach to designing need to be sensitive to a different level –
I honestly don’t know. I think just pure a collection has changed. I used to say ethically, intellectually, even sentimen-
instinct, as I have no background in my that clothes talk – when you choose a tally. I still suffer from this sense of shal-
family for fashion whatsoever. Fashion nice fabric, the behaviour and aplomb lowness that we give to fashion, so I am
and clothes obviously intrigued me but of it inspires you with the designing. always looking to elevate both myself as
I had no formal training at all. So it my Now it is more a question of, ‘Is it light a fashion designer, and fashion itself, to
boss at Cerruti who really taught me the enough for the Middle East, or for the something that is more relevant to our Matt rubberized single-breasted mac with quilted lining in nylon tweed jacquard.
importance of how the choice of fabric humid countries? Is it inter-seasonal lives and surroundings. You know, this V-neck cardigan with integrated neck tie detail in worsted merino wool.
Single-pleat cavalry trousers with elastic stirrup detail at hem in Harris Tweed.
could completely inform the type of because the collection needs to stay on is fashion – I’m not saving lives here – Chelsea boot with French calf, rubber sole with leather strap.
fashion you want to create. the boutique floor for four months, six but I feel strongly about attaching what All from Ermenegildo Zegna Fall/Winter 2015/2016.

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The edit Stefano Pilati

I design to contemporary life and social another level of the unknown. And for a I would wear for a ceremony’, specific
themes. Sure, fashion is frivolous, but I company like Zegna – where everything to time and place. Being someone who
just feel that for Zegna, exploring eco- is calculated to precision – anything has a lot of clothes, the real fun comes
sustainability is more relevant than unknown can be really destabilising. from exploring all those situations; ele-
making a rock star look. gance comes from choosing the right tie
People seem intrigued by the fact that for the right occasion and feeling com-
Again, this seems at odds with contem- you’re based in Berlin. What advantag- fortable in it.
porary fashion’s increasing reliance on es does this have for you?
archive source material. It keeps me out of the corporate daily Do you see yourself working in fashion
Well, everything has been done in fash- life of the company, which is how I think for a long time?
ion, so we’re dealing with refinement it should be. And it takes away a lot of I would like to think so, but I don’t
more than giant new steps. But I feel the pressure. You know, by my nature, I know. You cannot be a fashion design-

Photography Assistance: Johmar Pretorious and Nick Schwaiger. Groomer: Gregor Makis. Production by Made in Germany (www.migberlin.com). Retouching: Thijme Breukers
strongly – ethically, as a designer – that am a very isolated person. Not only do er unless you are giving literally all of
you shouldn’t simply repackage what I isolate myself in this non-fashion city, yourself, every day. It is a very particu-
has been done before and sell it as some- but I live and work in the same building, lar job because your taste, your repu-
thing brand new. That whole approach and I spend weeks when I don’t go out. tation, your life, can be reflected – and
to fashion reminds me of that MTV All this gives me a great detachment; judged – in the choice of a button. But
show, Pimp My Ride, when they get a it reminds me of something Mr Bertel- you can change people’s lives, so I take
vintage car and do a makeover of it. Of li said to me when I started at Prada: it very seriously.
course, I understand why that makes ‘The best research takes place in your
commercial sense – human beings mind, not on ‘inspiration’ trips.’ Of How do you personally quantify the
naturally find it easier to comprehend course, you can get inspired by all sorts success of your collections?
and recognise what we’ve experienced of things, but that sometimes shifts the Taste. People can criticise my collec-
before – but I want to take a risk doing focus away from newness. We now live tions from different perspectives, but
something new. constantly immersed in our memories something that cannot be criticised is
– especially as we get older – so it is nice taste. If you work in fashion, you need
Have you found yourself challenging not to stimulate them too much. to have good taste otherwise what is the
the values of Zegna? point? I refine my style through refin-
In a positive way, yes. I don’t want to Do you think the way that fashion is ing my taste on a daily basis, and this
be the first of the class here. But I still presented seasonally is out-dated? isn’t something that necessarily comes
don’t want to be the punk of the com- It is not relevant. I am very much against from research or development. You can
pany either. I just think it’s my role to it, but frankly it is bigger than me. Why find taste in an abstract painting, in car
shake things up a bit, within a reason- do we even continue to label the collec- design, in a novel, or in a documentary.
able frame of intelligence. I think I’ve tions Autumn/Winter? I would rather So when I quantify the success of my
given the company another audience, think about occasions: you know, ‘This work, it is through the level of taste I
and with that comes another level of is the look I would wear to talk to the have managed to bring into it. And that,
criticism, another level of investment, teachers of my kids,’ or ‘this is the outfit I think, is… unquestionable [Laughs].

Dark green rubberized matt single breasted mac.

Single-breasted jacket in Harris Tweed.
Single-pleat cavalry trousers with elastic stirrup detail at hem.
Green V-neck cardigan with integrated neck tie detail in worsted merino wool.
All from Ermenegildo Zegna Fall/Winter 2015/2016.
Camouflage boots from Muck Boots.

252 253
The questionnaire Têtière

The colour
questionnaire:
Haider Ackermann
By Loïc Prigent

What colour would you want to ban? How do you work with colours? When is red virginal?
Blood for blood. By clashing them. When it is cardinal.

Could you define the rich purple you What colour should a car be? A good colour for a wedding dress that
often use? Only black… or white in the case of a isn’t white?
Layers of black blood. 1910 Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost. Ask Monsieur Truffaut.

Who is fashion’s best colourist? What is worst: very noisy neighbours or What is the right colour for men’s
Monsieur Saint Laurent. black lipstick? underwear?
Black lips – who would want to kiss them? Leopard print.
Who is painting’s best colourist?
Diego Velásquez. What is your favorite colour to be pair- What is the right colour for a diamond?
ed with black? Black.
Who is photography’s best colourist? Black.
Steve McCurry. What is the right colour for a bouquet
What is the new black? of flowers?
Could you define the deep green you Off-black. Champêtre.
often use?
Colombian rock. In what colour do you wish to be buried? What colours are your walls?
Nude. Raw.
Portrait by Jang Duk Wha

What is your favorite colour name?

(I think Emerald is rather nice.) When is black vulgar? What is worst: furry clogs or a yellow
Blood. Never. kitchen?
Furry clogs in a yellow kitchen.
What is the colour name you don’t like? When is white slutty?
Mustard. When it is dirty.

254 255
 The questionnaire

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