'( 7'

/ffq'7
vletnam Kev$lted:
Conversation
with
\(illiam D. Broyles,Jr.

11 Decembei1984
f
i

U.S.MARINECORPS
HISTORIC{ CENTER
WASHINGTONNA\Y YARD
wAsHn{GTON,D.C.20174
 I'IIRINE CORPSIISTORIC4I] CENTER

Dlscusslon rlth Wll11an Broyles

11 Decenber1984
PTiTI CI PANTS

llctorJ and iluseuns Divlslon, Eeedquarters. 0.S. Ma.lpe Co.ps

lCen Edrln tl. Shhons Dtlector
co1 John 0. rllller Deputy Dlrecior for Ulsiory
M r , H e u y I . S n a w rJ r .
Mr. Benls M. lrank lead, 0ra1 Elstory sectlo!
Mr. Jack Shullnson Senlor Vletra ll13tor1an
Ltcol Vayne A, Bebb Hl6torlcaI Wrlter
iral Frank M. Batha lllsto!1ca1 tr1te. (.{v1at1on)
l4al Georse n. Dunhe 11storlcal Wrlter
I'lr, charles 8. Snlth

U.S. AItJ Center lor U11ltary Hlstory

Dr. Jeffrey J. Clarke Itlsro!1an
l,laval Hlatorlcal Cente.
Mr. Bernerd l. Cavalcante Deputy Head, operatlonal Arcnlve€
otfIce of Alr I'orce llstory
Dr. l4aJnel,{. Thon!'son Hlstorlan
lioodrot ll115oh Intelnatlonal Cente. fo. Scholars
Mr. Peter Braestlup &d1to., Ullson Quarterty
 srMMoNs: To set r1n8s ln contexi, let ne ,e11 you a l1ttle
b1t about our vlsltor today.
B11l vas ry alde durlng ihe flrst ot ny second tour as
!ar!
a s s l s t a h r d l v 1 3 1 0 h c o n n a n d e ro f t h e 1 e t D l v 1 6 1 0 n .
I lrherlted hln
tron ny predecesso!. I {as truly pleased vlth h1s
backArountt,
He had been a platoon teade. to. half of hls Vletne
tour before
comlng to dlv1s1on headquarters, fl18 academlc bactrgrourd was par_
tlcularly atrracrlve. graduatlnA '.!ob Rlce 1n 1966 *1th a
lfter
degree In ]]lstory, BI11 attended Oxfoid, Nhere he stu.lted sohethlng
esotellc lnvo1vlra !o11t1csj pb11o.ophy, a4d recelved
a second B.r. and an r{.4. Durlns this long st1!t 1n enaland, he
contracted a or Arglolhtl1a, froh nhlch he has no, Jet
ful1y recovered.

1s nore accurate, I !h1nk.

SIMj'IoNS: then 8111 Jolne<t the tarlne coFps and cahe oui to vaetnm,
leavlng there 1n the falt of 1970 to teach at the Naval gcadeny.
I hoped that thls e*pe.lence {ould turn nh lnto a career otflcell
but sonenor Auapotls dldn'i have qulte the lrold oh h1n that I
hoped 1t {ould. Ifter teachlng !h11o6ophy the.e fo! one acadeelc
searon, he left actlve ituty and returned to Te:as. after qo.klng
1n the Houston publlc school oysten for a the, he becane a founder,
mJnsprr-gr dnd ed1lor of e hlanty successfL Teffi l4on!ht./
nagazlne, eventually beconlng edltor_1n-ctr1ef, about two years
aso, he leti Teras to become rhe edltor of NerBreek &4gar1ne. I
h a v e n , t h a d a c h a n c e t o a s t <h 1 n a b o u t h I s p r e s e n ! l n s t l t u t l o n a l
 aroyleB _ 2

base.(1l any), but I tnop tbat he las slent a good

doal of ,1l[e
tn f.ee1an.e {.tt1ng, There 1s a plec6 rn e recerr Esqulle that
Irve hea.d good thlags about, lhoue! rrve no!
seen yet. Incldent
to h13 recent return trlp to Vletne, ulon w!1ch
*e,11 locus our
atientlon toatay, B1tl 1s wrltlng an 4ft1c1e
fo! atlantlc Monthly,
anil 1s up agalnst a tlght deddline.
so muctrfor backg.ound. Today, Bill {111 set ihe stage for
dlscusolon ot trls areas ot pali1cut6r lnleresr,
1n semlrar Stve_
a n d - t a . k ef a r h l o n . W e t l l g o a t ! i 1 s u t 1 l M r .
Frankts eyellds
0 e g 1 n t o c l o s e , r h l c h 1 s a s u r e s 1 g 4 t h a u w e . w eg o . e
a blr too
1ong, TheD {e'11 breat< for tunch, and
round table
dlscusslon at ihe offlcers c1ub, tnls afrernoonr
Bltl Bltl !ro-
b a b l y r a n t t o t a c k l e s o m eo t y o u s l n g t J , r o e a s s
detaltE 1n
a r e a s o l o a r i l c r _a " l n t e r e s L .

BRoYIES: I):anti you very nuchr Oenerat. Do not be alarneit by

rhe 31ze of thls drafr (abour 4o,ooo {ords 60 fa!)
thai I,ve
brought alonA. I thought our dlscusslo! {ou1d be lmproved
by
hy use ot rhe actual rords of rne Norrh vlethanese and
vlet cona
a e n e r a l s I n e t , r h e . e v e r p o s s 1 b l e . M u c ho f r h a t s e , l t b e d l s c u s s -
1ng 1€ thelr vterr ahd not necessarlty ntne. But I thlnk
1t s111
be good to present rhelr vlers_to you as dl.ectly and
as forcefully
as rney presented then to ne. In the contexi of the lijestnoretand
vs. cas Ne{s trlal, you sr11 be setilha the outtakes, an.r not
Jult
tne edlted verslon.
There are four Aeneral a.ea6 I'
o ? 1 r s i , t h e d l s c u s s l o n { 1 i h general otrlcer! 1n itanol (ond
 o Secondr the dtscusslons ,1th vlet cong verelabs 1n euan8
Nan lrovhce, about the rexture ot the war a,d 1rs lnpact on rhelr
llves. I want to contrast thel! experlences {1rh those of .1ne!1caD
conpany-grade vetefans, to see rhere drey dlffe!.
o Th1rd, the aIr qar 1n the Norft, to look at the lrofound
erfecr 1t had ulon the North vletnanese c1v1l1ans.
o tlnatly, I have lone geherat about VletnM
roday, and sone conbents about the ratu.e of socletJ there anat 1!!
vle' of the rar and 1ts afternath.
Lent ro Vlernft o, rhe 28rh of sellember thls yea!, and
the 25th of October. My t$o seet s 1n the North wepe
s!e!t noetly 1n and around lanoI, althoush I @de 6ohe 51de tr1!6
Lo th6 Reo ntver detLaj Lo Ehc rexL,le
@nufacturtng ro4 of Ne
Dlnh, La.get or heavJ bomb.tl8j Lo rhe
moun.slhors provtnce rbar
boralers c!1na. Tne rest ot tbe t1ne, I rent all
over souur vletne,
drlvrDa fron the Dt4zro the della, and ralt<Ind
to a lot of leople.
I rerenber tNo thlngs Dost vlvldty:
o The vletnanese lhrase that d1d 4os, .o opeh doofs for be
{ a s r ' i , I & o n gr l e n x o , n o r 6ov1et.r As soon as Vletneese
people dlscovered that I {a6 not a Rugslan, I wa6 lecetved vlth
sone trarntnj but {hen they leafned that I ras an .nerlcan ihelr
sportareous leactlon sa6 ohe of l4credlble tsarbth and affectlon, at
all levels. I have sone thouahts about that lhenohenor, vhlch Ir11

T h e s e c o n dv r v l d h p r e s s l o n { a s t h a t
lractlcally alt
 Bpoyles _ 4

e1gn3 of rar had been obllterated t.oh the tandscape, Fhether 1n

tbe stleets of Hanol or the countryslde, norrh aDd douth.
L I bad
war had taken place there, I trou1d not have guessed 1t
f.om {h3r T oaH.
I drove alourd Eanol tor an bou. anit 6 ha1r, Iooklng
In valn
for evldence of the bonblng. lty1na agaln (as
t had ,1th oeneral
SlDnonB) over so&e of the toughesr areas oi
I CoryE_-Co No1 r61and;
t h e A ! 1 z o n at e r r l t o r y - - I sar only rlce laddles, peacetut vlttagesr
1 1 t t 1 e l < 1 d sa o l n g t o s c h o o l , b o y s o n { a t e . b u t f a l o ,
No slgn there
had ever been a {ar tougnt there. rorher defollated areas alonS
the Uekong had coco.u!-produclng paln trees
aga1n.
Along Boute #1, froh Da Nang to ile DMZI aU slgns
of Aherlcan
presence have dlsappea.ed. all the army and
alr Force 1n€taltatlons
a i R e d B e a c h , s o n e ; C e n pE a g 1 e , g o n e ; C a n pE v a n s r -g o h e j
r4a.ble
ltountaln iacIllrles, gone. Al1 that renalns 1s led earih and
an
occdslonal plece of barbed k1re. Thls really
8ot to he, tllnklna
of all the peo!1e end actlvlty thar hed been -nere_-a1r flelds,
supply delots, veltcles, conputers--all aone. I lehember
thlnklna
f h a l c a r l n a s e m u 6 Lh a / e l o o k - d L t n a l h l e
Da Na4g u3ed to have one of the busles! alpports 1n the world.
No{ ihey wllt handle t{o fllghts a day {hen lney dre really
bus}.
I {as gtruck by re lncredtble qulet there. Befole, {lth alt the
bustle and actlvliJ! I had a sense of hlsLory oeln8 nade. Thls
ther s t a n d l n g n e a r e m p t y h a n g a r s 1 n n e a r _ a b s o l u t es l t e n c e , I
sensed
only nothlngness, The dlsrant nolntatns and the over{hetntng
qulet
donllat€d the €cene, Ir's as flroughrhe country lad reverted
to a
 Broyles _ 5

!!e-h13to!1cal cu1tu.al state; as rhoush hlatory nevei haplened

I net leveral offlce.s of general .ank. The

{as 0en6.a1 lhr (not the coDnander of ple1 e I Ia
f,ho ls,rhe edltor o! The fi1l1ta.x !gql. I asked
3er our to ftahi the aeerlcans at the beglnntng ot
q u o t e h 1 md l r e c t l J :

Fron rhe, beglnnlna re conclLded that we

coutd nof
oereat Lhe llertcan A.hy oy Etllla.y heans atone.
ar.ong. Bur, ,6 kne, we had
a d v a n t e g e . 0 u r _ 4 h o l e n a r l o n r o u g h ! . ! e , eor4ee g r e s !
;nlLeo.
ras Lo srLack fhaL uFaknessho{ever {e coJtd.

I asked Cenerat Man about the current conrroversy 1n

tbe
l{esthore-lsnd vs. CBs Ne{s trlal-_over shoh no.counr
1n ,rre Vlet
cons/WA orde. of batrte. He stated (as ,ould Eany others) ,rra,
rhey v1ered tnelr dseMless" fror rhe ..!had resula,
sorder sl1 the ray doen to the unarned peasan! ,no scoutert
arnerl_
can lorced and posltlons as he worked 1n the
!add1es. ie vent on,
o u . r e a u l a r f o . c " s c o m p a . e dr o J o r r s p e f e 6 6 4 r ^ . b u L
e v e r y o n ec o u t d f l g h ! { r t h , h a L " v e r h e h a d . I r ; e h a d
a sun, reid take a gunj 1f *e dlonrt have s qLn. we
rr He dtdn,t have a 6qord, we tooi
l m l f e j l f 1 t r 6 s n ' L 6 k i t f e r t L i a s a s E t c k . , e at o o k
had and foDght Lh. aggressor. you Hele
r n F a s a r e s s o r , T h . r e H F - e t e n s o f l h o u s a n d eo f

. o u t d n r y o u d e f e a L u s ? B e c a u s eH e h a d L e n s
of
r n o u s a n d os f o t h e r s _ - 3 . o u r s s, p t e s , p o t l r l c a t c a d r . . . .
Nole ol flr1s reatly chan8ed ihe ,ar, I broke 1n. Wiat 1t tool
flnatly *as North Vletndese troops,
t r Y e 8 ,t l a t , s t r u e . B u t
t h a t o n l y b e c € o ep o E s t b l e a f t e r y o u
1eft, and the self defense forces H€re cruclal tn gettlng you
out.r
 Brottes - 6

He rrled Lo p.ess r\e polnu. ,.Tf you vere glveh rhe

o.der Lo
atiaclr the Da Nang alrbase and destroy the plaaes
tbere, noB aany
troopo *ou1d you iave needed? The way you
rouAnt, you {ould need
several d1v181ons. Iie.drd lt {1!h p.eclsety
30 Een. It vas a ne{
!1nd of ra! that re tivented,. and 1t kes
los.lbf,e o.1y because we
had hhe support or lhe people.tr

, th:,r*! senelar r ralked ro was need Bu1 rln. He,! a blt

llke the Xllloy of Vlefnsa. lhenever anytllng
slsnlftcdt haplened,
]je {as tiere: At Dtehblehphu In t95A; down the Ho cht MInh
trail
th 1963. Ee.ec€rved rhe surreDd;r o, cene.al (B1s)
Mlnh ar the
lre5ldentlat pahce h SalSoh ln r9?5.
Bul TIn sald th6t the NvA
v l c r e d u h e A D e r t c a n sa s h a v L n g L h r e e b a s , c
ne.knesres:
o Tne fl.sb was rha one-year personnel
rouaL,onpottny.
No sooner nsd a sordter begrn ro learn
Lne cou.rry rhon he $as sent

o , i h d s e c o n d , d a k n e s s{ a s I n r h e o a s l c a p p r o a c h
of tryl.na
to {In rhe hea.ts;nd nhd; ot people rhlre
tryhg to k111 ihem
'{ith bonbs.

o. qhe thfrd {eAknes€ raE rn Anerrca, 3 c h o t c e

of an el1y.
Nlnety lercdn! oI the !;pper sovelnnent *as c o r r u p t ;
the re@1nt!g
ten lercent {ere not enouSh.

r r r e d t o p 1 n d o v n C e n e r a l I , t a na n d B u l Tln about
the orlglDal
d e c l s l o n t o s e n d t o r c e s f r o h t h e n o r t h , n i o the
south--wten and why?
Accordlhg to oeneral Man:
'
In r954, {e vere on lhe ve.qe
r h e s o u r h . l t e c o n c l u d e dr h i r
ret rhe luplets be deieated.
c o n v e n e da s p e c t a l n e e t l n g t o
 Broyleo - 7

people for a long war rltn the nnellcans,

ro ptan tne strateales and to lay .ne
sround fo! the strussle.
Bul Tln's sto.y {as dlfterent. E e t r a v e l e d < l o w nt h e H o c i l
l'I1nh T.a1I 1n 1963, to gailer lniornatlon for a report to the
Polltburo on the status ot the V1e,i CorA 1n tle Sourh. Bu1 Tln,s
concluslohs dlffe.ed bottr fron tbose ot rie aherlcans at the tlne,
and fron the Nolth Vletnae€e larty t1ne, es exlressed bJ eeneral
U a n . A c c o . d l n g t o l 1 h ' s a n a t y s l s , t b e V l e t C o n gr e f e f a r f r o n
vtctory 1n tle rlnter of '63 and the sprtng of 164; tnslread, rhey
trere 1n d1sar.dy. they could go no fur rer {lthour stA!1flcaht
the lre.lcans stayed out ot ue {ar.
0n the basl. of Bul ?1n,s analJs1s, the Noru: Vletnirnese
declded to cohnlt thelr forces to ihe s.urn. several ot the people
I lntervlewed told he that they had gone down the Eo Chl Mlnh ?rai1
ln 1964. But iheh I began to sho{ some lnte.est In ihe tlhlnA of
thelr travels, they nodlfled ihelr ea.11er srateEents: ,,Fhat kas
rea11y...the Nortl vletndese forces dldnri real1J reach the
b a t t l e r l e l d u n t l i a f r e f i h e , { n e r l c a n sa r . I v e d . , r T h e y { e r e q u l t e
senslrlve about adhlttlng anythlng that coutd lndlcare tha, they
berdre the Anerlcans coEnttred trools. But I thhk
that 1n truth they {e.e 1n ptace 1n the south and ready to ao by
tne ilhe {e arrlved.
I trted to aet rhe Norrh vletrmese vleN of the battle of P1e1
Me (Ia DranS) and r{o other battleg near Chu l-al: Ap clang {Opera-
tlon srarure) ahd Thanh Mountaln, for {h1ch I ' v e b e e n u h a b l e t o
f l n d a h A n e r t c a nd e s l s n a t l o h , l s u p p o s e d l ra
 Broyles - 8

uarlne8 vas annlhllated there, khlch does nor square wlth the
hl8torlcal record.l In ralklns io several sererals abour rhese
battles, I found oerlal, connon rhreads 1n thelr descrrptlonc,
I talked et length wlth Ceneral loang, {ho 1! no{ rhe
chief
h1stor1an or tne Vletlanese &by. Durln8 the battle ot ptel fie
(Ia DranE) he was alde-de-c&! to cenoral dan,
ihe North vletnees,-
conmanitef (nor rhe oeneral tlan quored ea.lier). Tlrese ,ere Hoangrs
leacnlona ro Anellca's entry lnto the waf vlur
Wecannot lndulAe 1n wlshful th1nk1no.
r a c l n g a m o d e r ha . n y , v e . y n o b 1 l e , n ; v e r

tt.en-you ser! Lhe tsb Cavs1.,

t t g s v e u s h e a o E c h e sr r r l . 8 t o
r l g u r e o u f w h a t t o d o . c . - e 4 a t l , j a na n d _ v o u _ d
s.ay avake ln our shetfer tlytns to elgure ou,
ho{ to .lghL Jou. lte eere v;ry-cr06e ro r, e
!1rea Ehe Anertcan LrooDs
!4:..veiv_ne€r 1 3 . !1uh your hellcoprers you
l n g . r h a r F a d v e . y e f f e c L t v e . l ] { eh a d r o
ro rlght s6 our tronttlne t.oo!6.
'
generat, the conhandef of rhe 2d vo Dlvlslon
Irother
talled ro
ne about thls, and bor they develope<t tbelr tactto ot ,rarabbtna
rhen by the belt,,--he actuatly gr6bbed ne by the beli to denonstrate-_
to counrer these thtttal ane.lcdh sdvantages, Aslde froD staylng
out8lde ot lnerlcan artlttery tah6, the xVA and VC could also
neutr4ltze our lndlrect t1.e calab1l1ty by elgaglna our
uhlts at
very oloae ranger tnslde tbe nlhlDu ranges of our {ea!ons.
Tley
could not natch !t:e ae!1al nob1l1ty lrovlded by ,.nor1cen
hellco!_
re.s, bur theg coutd neutrallze lt to sone exleni by malntatnlna
superror ground nob111ty ro Anerlcan troops once
nney nad debarked
 Broyles - 9

fron thelr helIcolters. !n effectlve ,,grab then by

the belr,r tactlc w6uld be to lure aherlcan hellborne forces outslde
the effectlve ranae of thelr artlllery, lnto sltuatlors ,!efe thel!
grounal nobuttt Na8 llmlted once they bad landed. under suci
condltlons, ihe No.tt, Vl etnahes e/VC a1{ays felt confldelt of vlctory.
The WA/VC see P:, 1 t4" tTo D.anA/ as a gr-a- vl..o.y for Lhan,
despIL- tqe clalDs of ICo]oh-I narryj Su rs and o-ners that
lEerlcan Ne of noblllty a n a tf l r e l o r e r at Ia Drana leralded a,ew
type of alr assault rarfare ftat proved qulie effeetlve agatnst wA
regutar folcegr as lndlcated by comparailve casualty counts, The
body count afalneni 1. .e@rkably unpersuaslve to the vletnmese.
Tlne and tlne agah, tbey f,l1l brush eslde any reference to losses,
s a Jl - a :

OC cou.se H- r4d sac.lflces; of cours- we hcd Losses.

1ear1llg. Thc pollrouro satd stnply to
rrgnr rhe herlcans and lear. you" flghblna r.clnlques
as you ao alona,
. Aware that the anerlcans consldered the Ia Dlang actlon a
success, the North Vletnamese setched the lst Cav,6 new_founit
confldence 1n rt6 flrepo{er and Eoblllty grow steadlli lnto a
pervaslve flre sulport base neriality. That in turn !,roved to be
the best thtna rhe tirvA/vc had solns for rhemr because rhey could
altraya couni ob lbeflcan forces to rehalh dlslersed, lrather t]ran
concentrated for declslve acrlonl ard to lety beavtly on hellcop_
ter Doblllty lnstead of lnllovlng thetr celab1tllJ to nove over the
around. They could couht oD our oftelslve operatlons never go1.a
beyond tne artllIery tan,
cene.al Hoana {ent hto nore detal1 about lhls lhenonenod:
 aloy1es - 10

Il:"r:l.cg" caneoub Do ershr ue {r Lh one dsy,3

r o o o .a n d d r e e k , 3 e n u n t l l o n , fney sent lhet.
to Satgon to be wssled.
p e n o e d o n a a r e . b r o u a h u b J h e l l c o p l e h sTthne y d e _
we vere Emazedet hor dependenr you {e.e on oans.
loglstlcB. y d r e r e p r e l a . e d r o - c a a r r r e r e n your
i rar,
ro rrghr an enehy tlke Joursetve6.
qoang conthu€d.

ou! nobitley kas ohly our feet, so *e

jnto areao Hhere dhelr he_1coplers
ano arL rre.y rould be or no use. and ve-t.Led
6 0 o e p e h d e n to n t h t u L h a t J o u w o u t d n e v e r d e v ; t o p
ll:":9111:r our r.-16, on foor,
rlgrrrj erbed, h the Jungle. you selooD kn;w
and ,ou 6e_don nad s c-ear goa1. so
your great advantagea ended up belns ,asteit antt
y9l:l:it,". du.h of your frrepo"-r-on
"npiv-j,,gre.
For elaapte, fron 1955 Lh-oush 196i you had s;;;
olerqtlons €no .ou10 ro! concenffale
on our.esutsa r.oops lar lhe rlshl rlhe and ln Dhe
. t g h t p l a c e j , s o y o u . s d v q n , a a e s - a - r eH a s l e o ,
rhls theEe-runs rhroush all rle NVA/VCdlscussiohs
ot ,he kar
frm 1955 . h r o u s d 1969. Bur du.Lns Lhe acltol rhey rerea ;o as
t{estno.eland,g second canlalsn of 1962, tley nad
becone concerned
&bout the po6o1 l1ty of a shlfrlng 1n ,he stareglc balance of
for.e3 lJn falo. o f b h e a 4 e . 1 . a rs . r cenerst -uan, Lhe ,.arsb Lhen
by the beltn connarder of the 2d vlet cong dlvlslo!, exltalned 1t

I n t h e 8 p r l n a o f 1 9 6 ?r 4 ' e 6 t n o . e 1 € nbde g a n r h e s e c o n d
campelan. It {as very rle.ce. Cerrain
kele ver' drscou.ased. rhere f,as much
;::":"bi;:";:.,*
Jii;,..|3,ji,i".331"11i:
:,;"1';"::":i!r8:"ii"

iiiii,!ii!iql',.i{,:l3.i"il,r'.llil'.Ll"rf;l,
J5,,
;:lti"i::'i:*+;:'":::,:irl'ii"ii,ji"iii "
i:,':i";,"".
-
;: I:"::"ti:",::,::"ii
::;":;;".i;:"i;;.*'
"",
 BroyleB 11

Derplle the dectslon, tuan and others renalned p.opeliy

les])ectrul o l n h e r t c a n a l r p o r e r , a m o n go t h e r t ! 1 n g s , recaltlnA
thelr ea.11er experlehces. As Tuan recalls:
llhen the Inerlcans entered the war ve spent all
our "re frll1g Lo _9u.4 o L 1oHro "tght yor.
rhF to!-et so10,er Lo che hlah-sr
general talked -_!jut 1t constantlJ. It xas a
4afier of l1fi and deatn. The lncredlble flre-
poic. d d Jour nobli,ty rere ou- blAees .onc-rr.
Lh- -rr-L B-5, .atd on plgliaJ /t
6 ol JJ.e d, l9bF. T UDL never .o.aer j i . ler
ero.ps o'B-52 s d-oppeo rrc!- bonbj nor four
tllon-'e"3 f.or ne. T' vcs ho-- b.e. Tro of
rl ee- .nlfs 4e"e sLrplt o,oL, aHal. ou" Iosses
,ere huge. Ne had ro adnlt you had ter!1ble
a_.c ai5. Po! .orrd ue preser,e o.. -orL-s
an'l stlll c4gag6 you? tp occjded Hc I ad Lo
'orce yor !o flgnt
ou.
1 -. - p t ee c e b l - p
l n r . - e € , t"n" E
re.e.
o geL so
^ o:" rraf 1 d d
ro,r ar' r_1err ano
a r e . u l t r o u r l o e ! . r 1 . s f o r c e s J-
ri1.h ue-e la.rn-. 3{e I lron -qe Ane.!cans__
roo( ar gr-3ue. to6s"5 rnal our Lomoarun!.s
tnat engeAed then.

Bul T1n sMnarlzed the sltuatlon succlnctly:

O l . o . . s e , \ e h a o - p a v I - r _ o s s e sI n j 9 6 b , B r i
He r-a.4ed. Ne learleo Eo brt10 sp-.is- rhc-te.s;
nor uo de oy 3.ttll..y and at.planes: hou ro,rIe
y o L r o v o . ^ r r e o a s e sa n o y o r - n e c o p t e . s , r s o
rha h e J u o r l F d a g d l n s r y o u . t i J F, e r e a r h o n a 1 n
nare a.d vo. d3.!60 on'J fo gai bdci Lo
.he J roq.
I mor- Lqan f -epoie!, s-o {e .-c.ned
asalnsl you.
General Man talked about Khe Sanh and the 1968 Tet otfenslve.

l/eqho-eland rno-J nhe sa., Has Iar ofher ] Dlei_

oleaDru. D enbte p5L Hes a sr-4 egi. oa.rte dor rs.

vanr-d uo b-1na you forc.s dHay roi 0-. cli t.€ Lo

g:_.I th:..9 th" "ronLr-. rLo crao,e .6r.o p.epa._
ror or. g.eat Tet offenslve...
 Broytes- 12

SIMI,IONS:Say that agaln, 1ord1y. thatts a very lhlortant poht.

B F O Y T E S T( Q u o r l n g ) :
Ue aanted to brlng your forces atral fron ihe c1i1es
to decoy the! to ihe frontter lto enable us] to
lrepare for ou. great Tet offenslve.
SIIIMoNS:For a nonent, I,d ltke to talk a tlttle b1t about tle
srfateglc E1gnlflcance of Kbe aanh. I don't trant to put too llne
a polnt on 1t, but 1t 13 obvious flon thlE quote that the North
E
V l e t n a m e s ev l e { o f X h e S a n h s a s c l o s e r t o t h e l , I a r l n e C o r D s v l e { . . . t
l e s s l t k e t h e M A C V( 1 . e . , r ' r e s t m o r e t a n dv)l e { . . . a n d n u c h l e s s l 1 t e
the Alr rorce (1.e., Nalty) v1e{, vlth respect to the so-carleir
Cleat Debate: \ila6 Xhe Sanh heant to be a battle of ,.ecision or
not? l,las lt tie natn eltort or {as 1t a secondary eflortt Thts
quote of General Mants 13 certalnly nor concluslve evldence, bui
IL s & noet lnleresclngf1nd.

BRoYLES: To be real1st1c, {e Ebould eonslder the po6s1b+try ihai

the No.ih Vlei.amese or1ghal1y set out .to nake Khe Sanh a battle
of Bt.ateglc slgnlflcance but refe forced by our strenuous defense
to change ihelr nlnils.

SIMMONS: It they had neani Kne Sanh to be 6 strateglc obJectlve,

li wert badly for them.

( J N I D E N T I I T E D ) :T n e y s a y r h e l J s ! 4 a L e A yr a 6 { h s r I r u u r n e d o u r r o

be. r 4 a k l n ga v l r t u e o f n e c e 8 8 1 t y .

!%s. That's exactly ho{ they behave

sIMi{oNs:B u t t h e l r p e r c e p t l o n so f u s a r e r e n a r k a b l y p o l n t e d .
 lroyles - 13

lbeJ seen to knok a 1ot nore about us than !e knew about then.

S]1UlI|,lSoNr In the North Vletnahese offlclal hlotorJ (I donrt rrnos

trenslatlon 1s, but thetto rhat ris depeldlng on.),
they,re saylng thar the Tet oftenetve declslon Eas nade tn July

1967, ratber than the fF11 of rhat rear.

Bnol-ES: I don" t.,nk rh6r's In-ois.sLenL.

SqULI|,ISON:There also seehs to be sone debate {1th1n the North

V l e t n e e s e h l e r a r c h y a b o u t t i l s rhe, as ro trhetner they are on the

In 1957?

S E U I - I M S O NY: e s r 1 n ' 6 7 . In other Nords--at thls polnt_-they seen

to be facllg the proslect of ktcklnA off a tra! of larAe unlis, tn
addltlon to the Nar of snalter unlts already underway. perhap5
the'dlchotonJ bet{eer bte arit sna1l unlt vars Is not qutte as 6harp
for th€m as 1t ts tor us, but tney silll faced the cent.61 questlon
of Nhetber they could natch us tn conbat betleen large un1is.
o t n e ! { i s e , l t h 1 n k y o u r q u o t e s 1 1 n e u p { h a ! D o u g l a sp l k e h a s s a l d ,
about the lnseparablllty of the n1l1tarJ an.r the pol1t1cal aslect.
of tne Vletnaese concelt or isrruggle.r

B R o Y L E S .t h a t r s J l r t t h e t o h t I was about to nake. let he quote

ceneral Managaln:
lghorlra tne pol1tlcal Iaspecr] leads to ntl1ta.y defear.
ve never separate fne teo. I,rehounted rhe otfenslve to
sfoq fhcr you could.o. o--.o us as r'o- nao p-a.reo.
sul J-e.ed gred losses ou rFe osser
 aroyles - 14

were acceptable glveD io the success.

Later I asked Bu1 l1b about thls accelt6nce of heavy lossesr
erlec1a1ly In llght of tle greet usprlslng of the 9eop1e asalnst
the Soltb vletreese goverment that the |IvA/vc seeEed to expect.
At f1rst, he seened to deny that thts kas lart ot the strategy,
sathgr rlle could not have the people go oui 11ght1y arned agalnst

the heavlty arned .rllerlcan rroolj...n

BATfiA: Although I rasn,t there at the tlme, I later ieafd of nasses

of leolle slth vlet cong flags Mlklng boldly dom the srreetsr
tllnklng tnere aould be an uprlslns. fhey rere slaushtered. I
recognlzer thoughr thar rhere {ere other subplors lbvolved ln rh16
phenohenon.

BRoYLES: l{henever I besan to talk of thlngs 11ke ttar, I {ou1il

tend to eet the 6ee answer. ThIs ls Bhat Bu1 Ttn EeId about tt:
It 13 ttue thar our forces ard thelr al]leb took areat
. losses. ffter 1968 nost .f our rorces rere senr lnio
lhe south. Sone .onpanles qere Htled our. Ln SsLaon.
H e s u r r e r e d t e . c t b l e r o s s F sb u t q e L s D t l l l d l o n o i 1 o ; e
even one-thlrd of all the vlet cong forces.

I replled that ceenedllke a lot to oe, It {outd be llke the

Aherlcansto81ng 175,000b6d, But t1n Jusr shruggedtt orr:
lre had lundred8 of ttousands kuted. Ue rould have
sacrlficed ohe o! t{o n1lr1on nore, 1f necessapy.
T h l s a l l l l n g n e 8 s t o 6 a c r 1 f 1 c e 1 s s u n h e du ! l n a b r t e f s a y h g
o f g o o h l M l n h ' s r r h l o h c a n b e f o u n d o n s t g n s a t l : l r e e n t r a n c e Et o
lractloally every vl11aAe 1n Vlethe:
NOIIIINO IS MOREII,IPOiTANTTHA],III,IDEPENDENCE
AND FREEDOM.
 Broyles - 15

tveryone--froh generals to slito{s to snsl1 chlldren--has ttls

s3n'1ng planted flrnly 1n hle nlnd, and quotes 1t freely trher asked
about the sacrlflces ot the {ar, ttherever I wentr I d1d not flnd
anJone ffho expressed any degree of .egret for anytblna he nad to

vhen I {enr ro rruj, I sleni a great deal or ttne talklng to a

palr of Vlet cons lho curreltly serve as tne provlnclat Vlce chalr-
nan of the People! connlttee and of the lorelgn affalrs connlrtee.
Both of then kere 1n Eue back 1n 1968, at tne cttadel and elsewhere.
The flrst tnlng they asked he f,as 1f I had leen the docunentaryr
rrvletnd: A Televlslon rtstory.n (Laughter) 1 .eplied that I lad.
r],{e]l,tr the Vlet Cong saldr n\{e Natched 1t too, Ve att waicheat it.
Anit {e reEenber scenes of Marlnes throtlng hand grenedesr in vItlae;
atter vl11age, all oler I Corps. thy dlit you do that? These rere
leasants and {0r}er3. All they Nanted xas ro 11ve In peace. thls
'3 shat f1 -d uo r.l!h
Lh. -age to ftgnr.
ls tney talkedr I recalleat ar.lvtng 1! Tnanh My rlth ceneral
slmDono and seelhg the clv1l1an casuarileo 1ntllcted by Vlet coag
and ]llvl. Thelr bodles lald out ln !ors. It {as ho.tIble. so I
told hlI about seelna tbat, and Ne started a.gulhg. I asked bin If
ne had been 1n liue iturlne Tet 1958. !e qulckly reslonded, ryes, I
vas 1n one group lthat {as] 1n the C1iadel. street ro streer {e
vere flghtlng. It {a6 a glorlous t1he.'r
Thls oeened to be pari of sone herolc nythology-butldlnA thai
nad clapacterlred the connelts of Mhy of those I lntelvle{ed, But
I had l1tt1e tolerance for rhat ai the rtue beoause nJ t{o nost
 Broylee - t6

vlv1d henorles ot Tet 1968 are the deslroyei! clradel

6nd all tbose
c I v l 1 I a n b o a t l e sl a 1 d o u t .
rrltell, {hat abour alI rtrose people you
k l 1 1 e d ? , rI a s k e d .
For the ttrst tlhe durhg Ey v1s1t, cracks began to aplear
1n
that lncredibly brlght and shlny patlna of hospttallty.
I b e g a nt o
sense thet thlnas rcre p€rha9s a good deat dlttereht tron
Bha, ltey
{ere belng Dade out to be. lor exelte, these tro ex-V1€t Cong
leaderE looted Ilke norle srers. No{, al1 the Vlet corg I
evet saH
out 1n the bush were peasants. They sere dedlcated to thetr cauEe
atrd good flghters and all, but the, yere roug!_herr__!!eht off rhe
farh. These Auys across fron me looked ltke they had
Just cone
f . o n d l s ( u s s l . A 6 r o v l e d e a t , T h e yv o r e t d r ! I e r e c i
s{eal"-, ard
glas6esr and looked very lntellectual. ed {letr I ast<edabout the
ktlltng, a 1oo( crossed Lt t3 guy'e oovte-srar face ha! 3.ddenlJ
bade ne very alad tbai r yas hls guest and not hls
lrIsone..
xryrdy, thls vlei colg offleer started to dery ih6! the
. klll_
1ng had ever taken place, ,lth a renarkable taurology:
. . . T r . N a 3 l p o s s l o r e . l t l eq e r - L f e p e o p l e . u o u c o L _ d
{e ktll ou.selves?
T h e n h p l a u n c n e dr l u o a ! t . a d e a o o u Ld l - r h e a r - o c t r t e s . h e
AEerlc6ns had conntttedi

D l r p e o b a o r e sr . o r E h e r r n o u n e r s
: 1 ! ! : " , i 9 d l " 9h ." a r t s . wonbs.
!ror|
st.lngs o" "ars arollo .he1.
:::;: ::',"

I .tuenbe! thlntlng th6t 1f he wert ihls tar, he kas capable

of nakhg up ahythlng he wanted, ge nust have senaed ny
6kept16n,
and changedhts tuner Ju6t a 11trle.
 Maybe the bodles {ere those of our oh Vlet Cong
latrlots rho lad leen ki11ed by the vengeful
S o u r h V l e t n a n e s ea f t e . h r e " ! g h t l n g l f o r c o . t a o l

I itld rot buy thls elthe!, and kept pushlng hh for a stralAnt
an6we! unt1l he ltnallt sald:
liell, look-iiar Is very flercej the people were ,'
very bltter; iley hated thelr lsouth yletnahese
clvluanl oppresdors, and perhals a fe{ people
--eone ot ihe nore brutal crlhlnals--{ere
oponiareously I111ed.
Thls 1s d nellonat nythology they ale creatlnA, rhlch adnlls
helther efor ror wrobgdolna, and ba8 no roon for ablvalenie,
anb18u1ty, or moral sublety. A ne, panoply of bepoes 1s @elglng
from tbe wa!: 20th Centu.y Pat.lck ltenrys ard Nathan Hales, shoee
stlrrhA nords are reelted and rmenbered, lor exd!1e, tbe @n

"ho Lrrcd u.succ.s3futU Lo bror up secrelarJ, or DFrense ircNaBara

durlna one o" h1s rlslLs ls remenbeiedand .evereo for sayrng, 'so

lone a3 a slnsle Aneftca, soldler 11ves on rhls 3011, *e can neve.

In developlnA lhls natlonal nythologyr lopulated vlth flatl

tFo-dlnens1oral le.oes and nartyrs, they do not go 60 tar as sratlng
thet the end Justlfles tle neans, no mtter ho{ extreme, On the
other handr tlrere appears to be no lartlcular uneaslness attached
to tne thought that they mlght nave comlltted ev11 deed6 tn pursult
or a Justlflable end. TneJ Jur don,r seeh to thlnk about 1t and
don't llke to dlscuss 1t.
I'd llke to 6ay Just one no.e ih1!g to ylap u! ny geheral
coments. I asked a nuber of leopte to ldentlfy the vorst perlod
of the {ar--for thenselve€, anyray--ahd eeneral Tuan's ans{er {ae
 Broyleo - 18

partleularly strlklng:
Arter Tet !968, the fo1lo*1nB perlod, tlroush 19?0,
was vefy d1tf1cu1t for us, The tlghtlng xas very
Il.rce. w! {e.e ofren hungry. I rae e dlvlsIon
c o m n a n d a ri 2 d V I e r C o r g d l v t s l o n l a n d I s e n r h u n a . J
for day8. I,le had no rlce io eat. Ir wa3 very, te;y
bad. But {e d1d not hare to beat you the say re
All1ea beat the Nazls. Ou. soal r6s only foi, gou
to trlthdraN so {e could settte our attalrs. Iliat
{ a s o r f a o a l a n d q - a c 1 1 e \ e dl L .
Sone of the lorner Vtet Cona leaders I talt<ed to, sleaklng
frankly, Eald that Anerlca's entry lnto the {ap lad geated rhe doon
of the Vlet Cong and v1ltuaIly guaranieed tha! South Vletnam vould
e v e n t u a l r y b e s u b J u A a i e dt o t b e N o r t h V l e t n e e s e r
TLe {0.61 Lhtng Jou dto ln rnls year {as ro co,F !n.
DL.lng t\e Long y.64s you we-e h.-c, de llhe /IeL
cong I kere destroyeal. the No.th vletnanese toot<
and then they took ove. rbe country.
B u r f J o u h a d n o t c o m er n 1 9 6 . , d e a o u t d h a / e { 6 r .
rl- dould \avc nad a auch diffe.ert counrrJ 1o,I.
C"n"".r ru.n dld not seem to go along {1r]) th1s. te feli
that even tnou8h the burden of conbat shlfted alnost entlrelJ to
the North vlernaneseatte! Tet 1968j the ultlnate result [a
u n l f l - d V ' e U r e u n d e . H e n o l ' s 0 1 r - o 1 J{ e s 1 n 6 v 1 L a o 1 e .
I coulat say much, nuch hore 1n the vay .f general cohnentaryj
but I th1!k the rlne ha8 cone to open the quesrlon pertoat.

FRANK: t'11 Iead otf. i4hat are the cl.cunstancee under trh1ch
you wenl to vleine, and ho! dld you arrange lt?

B R o Y L E S : I r r a d a p l l l e d t o e o l n 1 9 8 3 - - a b o u ta y e a r b e t o r e r a c t u a l l y
rent, I had tro goalE h mlnd. Flrst, to ralk to Vletnmeee peo!1e
and about ihe etfects ot the {ar on both the naJor
c1t1ed and on ihe counbrysldej second, to re,vlsit the a.eas {bere
 BroyleB - 19

I lad fought, to see how they had changed. Hauray ihrough 1984,
I had si11I heard nothhs fron the iletnsese. But, on 15 Septenber
I soi a cau saylnA that nr vlsa had bee! ellroved, Ir alnosr aoes
rltl:oui EaJlng that I {ould have l1keit to bave had thls atlscussloh
bcfore I deoa-teq on LhF tr'p. { r a d 6 e ) O i e q u e ! ! l o n I w a n r e d! o
ask a1I of you Ia {hether our vletrs of those early 1965 bdttles
dlffer nuch froh those of tbe NorU: lletneese?

ARAESTiU?: 1te11, Doug PlIe thlnks that fron th,- North Vletneese
vlerpolnt ihoae ea.ly battles rere a fom of tesilng, trylng out
ways to flglt tbe 44ertcans...[{hlch tracks rlth your quotes].

BnOYIES: of tlke a Broadray play trylns out 1n Nev Haven,

-Sort

BRAESIBUT: That's P1!e's lnterpretatlod. But I have a questlon

about the tactlcal s I t u a t l o n d u r h g l e t 1 9 6 8 . I d o n ' r l a r o wv h a t
level of detall you got lnto durlng your dlscusslons, bui I have
never understood why they 6eened to neke ao nany Elstakes--tacttcal
omlsslons--at Hre. TneJ 'ever olocked rhe rlver. -he never Dl;"ked

Hlghray #1. They reinforced pleceneal,..

AHUIIMSON: I {ohdered about the 6me thtng...

BRIESTRUP: I ras there as a .epo!te. taMng !1tn Ernle Chearhan

and others, ald we all Nondered ahy, {!tn all the forces they were
Bupposedto have 1n the area, tiey l{efenrt dohg any better agalnst
the bob-taIled r4arlne battatlon ald the haDdful of U.S, Arny conbat
t.oops 1nlt1ally North Vletnaneee end VC trad Eue by
 Broyles - 20

tbe short haIrs, but the l{4r1nes kelt 8ett1!8 through. Maybe lirs
the sse old story about thelr o!1glnal plan of gettlng lhockoit out
of shack and thelr belng too lnllexlble to edJust...

SHULIMSoN: Irn not surer elthe., but 1t seen6 funny to ne ihat

theJ were able to achleve sreat 8ur!r!8e ln Bue, ro get 1n and take
over the c1ty. Then once they dlit that, they seemealto have no
other a1D. They JuBt rdlted there !o be dped out. they fou8ht
bltterly, but there yas no re-dellotbent of forces and they reln-
r'o.ced Dleceheal a3 PeLernas sa1d.

BRAISTRUP: They brought In d cou9le of battallons ttey had sup-

p o s c d l y m o v e do v e r f r o b ( h e S a n h .

SBU'IMSONTlhat leads to anothe! questlo_n, about the relatlonshlp

bet{een Khe Sanh and !ue. Dld you by any chance ask theE tto{ Deny
d1v1s1ons they Ectually had at !$e sanh?

aRoYLEs: lbey vould not te1l ne.

StUIftSONi lite bave lndlcatlons of four d1v1slons.

a R O y L E S . m : e n e v e rI a s k e d r o r s l e c i f t c s j llke rroops strenSthsj

t h e y w o u l d a 1 f , a y ss a y J t r I d o n r t h a v e t h e e l a c t f l e u r e . . . ' , o r
,,You hlo{ as well as I...,, They seehed to {1sh aray anythlnA rhey
alldnlt feel 11ke talklng aboui or thlnklng about.

slltMoNs. Itd ll]{e to tackle ihat, by golng back to peler,s questlon

aboui the tactlcal mlstakes ar Hue vlce el3e{here. Donrt you really
thlnk thte nlAht have haplened because of the levet of solhtstlca-
 Broyles _ 2l

tlon of thel! cohnaDdahd contlol? The system and equllnent rey

actually h4d to {ork vlth? They could do a good plan-_u! ro the
nonerr tbe battle {as Jo1"ed. you analogjr t. the
Veste.n front 1n l,/orld Var I. that's Ju6t abou! {he!e the Vlet_
1n thelr technoiogy. Tliey coutd brlnA thelr forces to ,
baitle, but once thei. torces were comltted there Nas
very 11tt1e
rhey courd do to change {hatever rnelr unlts had o!1glnar1y bee!
assfuned to do. It qas tbe battallon conDander,s flAht frob that
po1!t or. At tue, the fog or battle ras lrobably so thtck ihat
they ekht noi have tnoN! whethe! the road ras cut or the .tver {as
bloc]led or Nhat opportunltles exlsted to take such actlons.

- BROYIES: I talkeat to then about th1s. Cobpared !o all ou. heU_

.oprers end.onNr.lca-1ons
8eaf, ,hey hao pfacrlcalt' norhlng. Iney
cohnunlcated by nesselger, They'd hand a plece of paler to a guy
and iell hln to take it over to ihe next coEpany or khaiever, And
ibe.nessenaer Dlght or nlaht not flnd h16 say,..or get caltured..,
or get k1lled...

B8AESTIUP: Dldn,t thls chabge ove. t1ne, ttouglr?

BiOYIES: they had radlos, too-_but they sald that they ,ere allays
arrald to u6e reh.

SIfiMoNS. V/ere they arare of our raatlo lnue.celt ca!ab111ry__of the

r-eddtrS t he1.
@t t?,,

BnoItES: yes. they eald ttat rhe, coutd use radlos only 1n extrene
energencles. Raillos {ere never used as ordlnarJ tactlcal tools.
 Broyte8 - 22

SIMMoNS: ItD thlnklns nos abour an analogy betreen Belleau trrood

6nd liue. once thoae valIne batiallons went lnto the {oods a!
Belleau l,looa, reglment and d1v161on lost controt of then. fhey
rere oui there on thelr ofn. I thtnk that,s {het hAppenedto the
battal10n3 at Eue.

B A B B : B a c k I n I o ? 0 , w h e nr r a s s i , a l r o r - o a r E l g h r h a - o E y e , r h e n _ _
LtCoI Che6thab {as ihe executlve offlcer of the Bar.acks. One
evenlnA, he had a gathertnE at sone ot h1s coolany conmnate.s at
E u e : R o n C h r l 8 i @ s , C h u c ! M e a d o N 6d, l k e D o m s , . . t ! e y t a l k e d a b o u t
the vely thlngs ee are atlscusslng now, lrCol oheatha sald that
he kepi {a1t1ng fo! the other shoe to fat1, but 1t never reatty d1d
at Hue. The WA and VC {ere very ieroclous, 6nd Cheathe ke!)t
expecrlna nore thlnas to happen. In raet, there Eere ilne6 {hen he
{ondered 1f hls battallon wa. golng to get 1ts ass klcked. aut 1t
never nappenedr even thouat the feroclous ftghtllg contlnled.

BRAESTRUP:I thlnk rhe 8me vas true durlng the t9?2 Easter
offen.lve. I ras up 1n northe.n I corps ,1th ltcol Jerry Turley,
the sehlo. Marlne advlsor on scene, and he ras dunbiounded ar the
fallure of the North Vietnanese to !u6h part the Cua Vier nlver
11ne at fIrst. E erythlnE seded ro be golng t!e1! way, but they
Just stopped. Then late 1n Aprlt they mde thelr secobd lush and
broke thlouah. AlorA lllghray *1, thelr advance toHard Hue xas
blocked ohly by an undersrrength battallon of Vletnahese ritarrnes-_
about 400 strong'-and Urelr tso nnerlcan advlso.s, who ca1n1y helit
thelr Eround wh1le the entlre 3d ARl'lt Dlvtslon relpeated paEt thelr
 aroyles - 23

poslilons. I renenber Turley saylng, ',VJhar the hell are ihey dotng,
lettlng the roadblock sto! rneh? Ihy apenrr theJ taklng thelr
tanka and movlng around our ilanl<s?,' The area {as ttat and sahdy_-
the old ,rst.eet l,llthout Joy.r There {as no opposltlon ou! there
except fop sone ianaers aad,reglonal forces {ho reren,t even,talkhg
to the Vletntuese Marln._s. The veather trasn't bart. But the I\.A
ran lnto thls l,Iarlne battatlon and lost a couple of tanks, so they
sio!!ed. Over ald over agaln, I get th16 teellng that olce they
had nade ihelr blg ptannei! aitact<, rhey {eren'i leady ro rol1ov up
and exploit tnelr 1n1tla1 successes. Bur tbat {as eorth tour or
ilve days of cohbat, At the end of four or rlve days, a d1r1s1on
rould be conpletely used rp, and rould have ro be pulleit back and
rebultt. The ldea of feedlli8 1n rellacenents anal sustainlng a
ruJor unlt throughr 3ay, 185 days of conbat 1s lnconppehenslble to
a relatlvely !r1n1tlle soclety.

(UNIDENTIFIED): Iie sbould .enember that the North Vletndese had

llnlted lolltlcal obJectlveE as re11 as nltltary ones, borb 1n 1968
and 1972, In 1968, ihey obvlously ranted to capture Eue and hotd
1t for !o11tlca1 reasons. In 1972, they {anied the lrovlnce ca!l_
tals of ln tocr Quang Tr1, and Kontu. Tlelr loa1c {as probabtJ
the Cernans, 1b gotng after parls and Moscoy.

SBUIIMSON. ]le has a polnr. Very ler NVA troops {ere u6ed durlng
the 1968 Tet otfenslve outslde of I Corls. l4ost of the flghttng
outslde of I Corp. {as done by Vlet Cong. Th16 thplles a 1In1ied
obJectlve, lrobably the tro northermost lrovlnces of south vletnd...
 BroyleE - 24

SIM oNST l,ieIl, rbelr nluiary reaton lncluded thoEe northelnnost

provlnces, {hlch Bere lsolated f;on tbe !e6t of I corps by the fial
va! noultalns. and I guess thet tney elpected to get at teaEt
lnose *o provlnces p1u3 Hue, both 1! 1958 and 1972. Then,
of
tras aloo the cta661c strategy of cut!1hg Sou l Vlethan
1n ha1l...d1rt they talk about that a6 a rccurr g srraieay?

BloYIls: rhey talked aboui both--derachrns no.,ne!n provlnces

1n
1968 ahd 1972, and abour cuft1ng are counrry h nalf.

BRAESIiUPT But are!'t lhe Nolth VletnaEese saylna_-des!1te rhe

fallure of these strdleg1es unttl the very end_-lhat thls apparent
lack of htlltary success reatty dldn,t mrler so .tong as they xon
In the end. I talked to stanley (arnoF {hen he got back fron
vterhd. thFJ oldn'i get lnuo as iuch de[a1t {lth hh as ;hey
d.!d
{1th you, but tiey d1d say.
Sur-. l/e had heavJ loss-s durL.a Tetl
d dn r @tt"r. . , r a dh e a v r t o s a c o o r
whar mriered {as thar re ron.
and you renenber the ftuous liafuy Sunmers quore,
wtlere he told
tne North Viet.anese colorel:
, t Y o uk n o { r y o u n e v e r
defeated us on the f1e1d of batt1e.,r
And the Vletnanese replied:
nThat nay relt be true. It 1s also lrrelevaht.f
Then the.e 1s ihe ftuous O!1ana natlacl lntervle{ nlth Ceneral
G1ap, tshere she told the general that the ane4cans clalmed that he
nad lost half a nlttlon sotdlers. And Cta! replledr rTbe exact
numbe..,, lhen )re 1et h1s head drop as casuauy
as lf 1t {ere qulte
 3.oyles - 25

unlnpo.tantr as huu1edly, as 1f pernaps, the .ea1 rlaure vele even

largerr accordlna to he!,
It Es Plke, I th1nk, yho polnted out that qhere ihey had us
vas 1n rnat re had In our heads...so a 1ot of.the dlscusslon about
thlngi werre lnteresteit 1n doesnrt lnterest then at all. The wa.
as nu, €s tL nlehu have or shourd 1ave, an; to us
that 1s Inportant. To then, ltrs not. Is that {bat you got?

BRoYLES: Baslcally, ye8. rrbeneve. I tlIed io lnterlre! vlctory

a n d d e a e a t1 n ! d r n 6 o f c a s u a l D l e s rt r e 1 4 . e a , L t o n k a s , " t h a ! a r -
you talklha about? Losses are not hor vlctory and

Bi4lslRUP: Dld-you ralk to rhd at all about Laos ard Canboilla?

B i o Y L E S : I d 1 a t ,b u t n o i 1 n d e t s 1 l .
one thlns I {as lartlcularly lnteresred 1n ,as talkln8 to the
guefflllas about thelr experlences. I,{e tslked about seapons, for
ex@!le. Tney found captured u-16 rlfles ({lth erc) to be 1n
relatlvely abundant supply. lnd they {e.e extreDely lmlressed qlth
the It-79 grenade launche., Tbat was the one weapon they ,lshed
they had. And they had (to he, aiy@y) thlE conlletely lne*ptlcable
respect for tne fi-72 (LAAI4), that one-lhot caratboard throFaway
tube, Ily ne! dldn,t 11ke to ca.t! 7 t , b e c a u s eo n c e 1 i g o t , e t o u t
In the JunAIe, 1t rould Dot tlre correctly,

s H U l I l , l S o N :T h e M - 7 2 { o r k e d N e 1 l 1 n E u e , t h o u s h . , .

MI'TER: lt {as larrlJ a natte. of educarlon. The south Vteineese

Marlnes rere atom on the M-72 for rhe but the advlsors,
reallzlng tbdt they had tex antl-ta.l< altern4tlveEr 8ot hold of
eons undamageallAAft and held exre!31ve flr1bg lractlce unt11 ihe
south vletn4ese regalned confldence 1n the {eapon and took palns
io care for 1! h tne Junale. 1'hls ra6 ln 1971. A year latpr, the
V N M Cs c o r e d s o m - l a p - e s s t v e L a n k e b u 6 h e s v l r h l A A I , r s o u r l n g l h e W A

BROYIES: In addltlon to {eaponEr t}ey talked about ho{ they neAated

our flre gupport baoe 3trategy and ou. flreporer--even iurnhg
t h e s e a d v a n t a S e 6a g a l n s t u s . . .

B,{BB: I sat on a flne base for rhe bette! palt ot flve monthg
durlna 1968 and 1969. You would often flnat an artlllery bstre.y co-
located {Ith the headqua.ter! of an lntantry battallo! on a flre
ba6e, 0r 1n the case of an operdtlonr a serles of flre bases. And
31tt1ng on tho6e flre baaes I rould often thhk, rYou hor, rlght
at thls vert bobent there are bad guy8 outslde thls ten lot frtendty
a.t1l}ery coveragel end tho6e guys are novlng. And sure enough, {e
woutd take eneny flfe lrom t1f,e to t1ee, And then tbe bad guys
would nove outilde the fan aAah. In ny optnlon, {e dld not once
3tfIke a blow for freedon durlrg those flve nonths. Thts ras 1n
late'68 and earty 1969, rhen:he 3d Dtvlslon kas restt.g the flre
ba8e co!cep!. l,{e Nere totatly theffectlve ln sendlDa pairols
through the algantlc va1ley the Vlet Cong sere us1ng, so they {ere
able to eove freely--eltber outslde the range fans or *1th1n the
mlnmun renae of our artll1e.y.
 BroJleB - 27

Ml!!Ei: ?he South Vletnamese nad the sane probl€n durlng ,AM SON
719. TheJ sei up € sc.1ng of f1!e bases that overlooked Route 1n
9
laos. The ba.es rere rot hutuatty suplortrng and the South
vlccrtu-s. lnfanrry unlLs d1d noL conL.ol rne sDa"es b"t{een
bLe0.
F a c n b s s e l r r u . n H a s s r - r o u n d e d ,a n d - h e a , . 6 c < 1 n A
N V Ao u e a J d
'.aeled - e1r HaJ cIos.. aho cto€e-
uo the O.r"nu,u" o""r."."",
untl1 NVA soldlers kere ly1ng on theif bact<sand flrlng u!
through
tne tacilcal {Ire at re-sullly h e l l c o p t e r s , n e d e v a cb 1 r d s , a n d r h e
llke. Thenon tbe ftrst lor v1s1b11rtyday f,hen ctose a1r support
ras regared, the lwI}ould brlng u! thelr ranks snd ovefuun the
flre baEe. Then tiet {ou1<l start 1d on tne nex! i.1re bsse, {h1ch
{ould have to face a prolort1ona1Iy stronger \vt force. Tlrey
pluckeit tho6e bases flke r1!e srapeE, one bt one.

BIBB. I thtnk thai host lnfantry and a.ttllery offlcers sho are
honest rlth thenselves would say iiat the tlre base concept as {e
enpioyed 1t tras larsely lneftecrlve . . . t otalty lnerfectlve.

BRoYLES: I,n noi sure lhat the atternatlve ,oulit be.

BrlBB: I,n not sure elther. Bur ihat one d1dn,r {orl<. I renenber
then-Brlgadler General Jaskllka, tne CC of task lorce yankee,
v1slt1hg our flre base. nAle you belng effectlve?tr he'd ast<. Ahd
sevepal of us repltedr rt{e don't ihlnk so, ceneret. Xttl iie
opc.arrol. L.r's gFD rhe helI

BRoYl,Bs. It took ne a coupte of t.1es--to change rle subJect__

to eet to Marble Mou.ta1n, whlch of course oore tew slsns
of the
 Broyles - 28

a1r fac11lty anit aIl the othe! actlylty there. Thele pas a cave
located ibere that had rot been t<no{n to the tnerlcans rhlte they
occulled the area. lven noe, you could not see ilre ehtrarce froh
15 feet a{ay. I {ent lnslder and saw a tuAe grotto, rlth a roof
that nuet have been 7t feet hlgh. There rere beautlful Buddhis
.ca.ved 1!to the rock, brlgbtlt lalnted. There {as also an ofrlclat-
looLlng pfaque) {hlch fooked hcongluous @ong at} the fel1alous
artlfacts. I asked oy lnterpreter to .ead tt: IN TqIS CAV! !nO[
1966 TO 1969 l{1S A IIEID tlOS?ITlI, Oi' THE LIBEiTTION rORCEs. No{r I
tuor that fron lnslite that cave you could have hearit hellcolte.s
takha oft frob the Marlne .1r fac1I1ry. you coulit probably even
hea. the convelsailons of anerlcans nearby. they had ar entlfe
fteld hodplial sei up 1n thele and not one Anertcanever knef, 1t...

FRIN(: Cotulderlng all tbe attrttlo! they suffereil, dtd they

alvays keep thelr objecrlve 1n slghr, o! nlgbt they bave been close
to a tlne {hen they !ou1d bave slven

BROYIES: I had the feellng tbat every slnAte North Vletnanese and
Vlet ConA ras plogremed not to qu1t. tbe Nortt Vletneege ole.atlng
1n the south had a dlfferent aitltude fron tle t&erlcans on thelr
ohe-yeaf tou.s. Ihey {e.erit trylng io get back to their fetlies
or to school. Tney vere there for the duratlon--nor a prescrlbed

a R A E S T R U P :I ' d l 1 k e t o g o b a c k t o L A M S O N7 1 9 . The Anerlcans had

a slmllar llah--called the iHlghway 9 ptan!' back 1n 1966. And that
was {l1y Westnoreland {anted to hotd Xhe Sanh, even though he could
 Broytes _ 29

nor 6ay thar at the i1ne. l.After a tvo_wee]<reconnalssahce th

folce ea.lIer In 19551 westsoreland put the fiarlnec 1n to Ilhe sanh
1n Septenber 1966. I had vlslied tt Just berore tte Martnes
,ent
back 1n. It yas a reAutar sMner resorr, nanned by Creen Be.ets
and aru trlbesnen, They hait atrplares 1n lltt1e underground hargars
and busfe ca11s every nrght. rt sas rlke a drear. The cob;arder
of the outlost kas llnston Slencer Churchltt Hutton III, a l{esi
Polnt g.adu.te. A terrlrlc cnaracter. I vlote a story abour 1t
ror tlre Ne{ Yo.k 11g9g, and Gald that lt looked 11!e moth* Dleh-
blenpnu ln tbe naklne, wlrlcn Nl1I not be ranked anorg hy bettet

But I dlgress, The polnt is u:at l,testnoreland has sald 1n his

neDolrs--ald other leople have 6&td, as {elt-_that Xhe Sanh r€s
lftportant pr1n6r11y as a sta8lng base lo! a LAM SON?l9_typd
operatlon lnto lraos, 1! case trynaloneve! chansed hls Elnd about not
rldenhg the {ar. No{, r,{estnoreland had Eany iaults (even rhough
thr; Marhe corrs eeems untlrlngly po1lre 1n dlscusslna lhen--thougn
not alwayo) and lfltrslons. And one lttuston he sha.ed ,ith nany
other n1I1tary nen Nas that he (or they) could brlng Lyndob around
to hls ray of thlnklng. So tbat {as the leaso! for hanglrg on to
nhe soh, rroh 1966 on.

SIITMONS:Let ne glve you anotber reason. Westnoretand nay have

ihouEht rhar he ras holdlna l{he sanh a€ a Junplhg_off polnt for an
excurElonlnto laos,..perhaps. But tor a hore hnedlare .eason for
llM SoN 7r9, you have to look to tleutenant cenerat Im, tbe I
Uorps conEander. 1 knoH iron tEce-to-tace contact ,1th Ceneral !d
 Broyle! - 30

t b a i i l u r l n g t h e 1 9 7 0 - 7 1p e r l o d o f t r I t h d l a { a l o f , { n e r l c a n r e s o u r c e s
ne was kee!1y axare that !13 capablllty of conductlng the {ar tn the
aierlcan xay ka3 fadlna. Ile could not lonaer count ulon a ,uper-
abundance of tununlrlon, alrtlfi, 4nd connunlcatlons. so he r4nteil
!o push {esiward fhlle he atI1l
And he partlcularbcou1d.
ranteit
Lo so 1n!o Laos. He bao s;.e lrEo laos as s _1eu!e1anr,servlnd
rltb the !!ench...a1ona Route 9. And he xanteit to repeat that

BRTESTRUP:Oh, greatl

SIrjl4oNS: I heard Lhls f.on hls oM llps.

( U N I D E N T I F I E D ) :D l d n ' t t h e A n e r l c a n s

SIMIIoNS: I ihlnk 1t ra6 a colncldence o r d e 3 1 ! e 3 . L e t b e J u s t s a y

that I f,as not partlcularly tolressed by the Aeneralghlp shown by
cG ot XXMorls at the iIne, but lan *ho provlded the
reat lnpetus fo. gohg lnto Laos.

( I ' N I D I N T I I I E D )t So tle therlcans {eren,t realty tn chalae..

SI|,IMoNS: vel1, lt!6 11ke the raft golna tio{n the rr1ss1ss1ppl
cove.ed rlth ahts...and every ant thlnks he 1s 1n control. lou can
3ee thls ln the varlous Donogrephs by South Vletntuese teaders that
CMHlas turned out. I hdd very tlttle falth h these Eonographs at
flrst, assuhlng thst iiey nould be setf-servha and so on, bui I
thlnk theyrre very reveallng. Very reveaung. you knotrj the
South Vletneese trere much less our puplets ihan they rere accused
of belnA o. eve! than ,e preruned then to be. they had thel! orn
perceptlons about {ho {as ln charae and Nho {as lunhlna rhe 6hor.
I thlhl< that our advlsors were certalnly aeare of that.

l'1IlL!R: [r{s a forner advlsor] I agree, But 1n adatltlon to tai's

l e r s o n a l d e s l r e s , d o n ' t , y o u t h l n k t h a t t A f i s O N7 1 9 w a s a l s o d i , i v e n
by the earl1e. 6uccesf of the camboatlanoleratlonr {h1cb 1n ettect
drled u! the Delta for the NVA and the vC?

S I I I I 4 o N S :S u r e . But I {ouldr't underestlnate te's own perlond1

hfluence. Ee thought he coulit puu the Laotlan operatlon off. He
lhought he could do 1t. (pause) MayireNe ought to sttlft gears...

aRoYLES: Just to rpap up the ground !ort1o....!ven atlrer haklrg

allo{ances for hlndsl8hr, the Nordr Vletneese seded to be very
clear 1n analyslnA our {eak lolnts. They sav four barlc veaknesses:
over-retlance on flrepo{e. and hellcopter su!!o!t.
The secohd {eak lolni {aB the lack of suplort for the {ar back 1n
the Unlted States. The thlrd was ou. partnershlp slth an uh{orihy
allJ. .1nd ihe feu.th lolnt, {hlcb t!:ey kept coEhg bact< to over
abd ove! agah, ls thar re anerlcans {ere trylng to flght a vlet_
{e kre not vletnamese. all the vtetnanlzatlon In
the Norld could not change rhat. Even oeneral lanh tn Satgon told
ne that. He sa1d, nYou hade us be antl-connunlst, bdt we had
lothlng posltlve to l'ut Ir 1ts ptace." rhd at every leve1 1n a va.
lIke tnls, ai sobe polnt the !as1c alteglance ol tne indlvldual
cones lnto questlon. It holds true for Airerlcans ae tre11 as
Vletnauese. But {e can talk nore about tils later oh. t_et,s nove
 on to the al! var.

ro begln l1th, I an Just a a.unt, and r had no partlcular

loo{Iedge of the a1r rar rlen I narte ny vlslt. But {hen you v161t
Hanol, you reallze that the alr war Has the b1g one__rhe real {ar__
for thtu.
The North Vletnahese calt 1t ihelr second Dlenblebpnu.
they -ege-d ou. Dtr alrac{s cs o.r o{n v6rston or 1ne!.
teo ,968
offenslve--our attealt to break thelr wltt by attacklna thelr .ear,
ano crearha a tsJchologlcal separatlon between thelr fron! ahd

They {ere very repetltlve 1n thelr ldsac propaganda r1ne. I

Eas on hand ror the celebrarlon of ine 3oth annlversary of the
llbepatlor of ganot from the Frerch, and I heard the c;parlsons
wlth Dlenblenphu ard Tet over and over aaalD. ?hey atso sald ihtnes_
-repeau-ctj--t ue, ,Vo. Aro you onry hade uq
{1,r.
more deternlned. you brousht tte {a. ho,rc ,o
eve.y house ln rhe

I had exlected qanol to have the look ot an aast Berlln,

vhlch
Ird seen 1n tl:e early 1960's. But as a mrrer ct fact, 1t tookeit
execi:ly 11ke a sleepy rrehch provlnclal torn, tbe.e {as no evlilence
that 1t nad ever been bonbed o. orher{1se affected by,ar. I slent
an hour and a natfr drtvlhg around {1!h by Au1de, trylnA ,o get h1n
io sbow ne dahage t.on the {ar tte coutdn,t fhd any. I,{e {ent ro
one of the stleers that ras trnorn to have been b1t durlnA the
Chrlstmas bonblng of 1922. There kas sulposed ro be a hemorlal
rhere, to all the clvltlans {)ro tsere ll1teit 1n the bonblna. Ne
*epi asklna rhere the nenorlat msj but !o one seened ro khor.
 Broyles - 33

llnally, re fould lt 1n a tlnJ llttle lark !1th a gate. there was

nothlng else rhere.

We went to the fdous Bach Mal hospltal, {htch {as h1t by

blsrake 1r the 1972 .a1ds. Tley sil11 dlsltal plctu.es of Jane
!o!da vlsltthg there. The ho.p1tal ltself t:as beeA,la.aely rebullt,
but the staff ottll ha. .rv1d storles about the boablne. They
descrlbed tne 11vlng pattents mlxed wlth the dead. The qater p1!es
burst aid there ras ftoodlng.

Ne bad to break through the rubbte and uncove!

the entrances rlth ou. bafe hards ro eet the
vounded out. PoHer {as out and the sioreroon
Nhere re kelt our antlblotlcs and bandages,as
desiroyed. It took alnosi rwo {eeks to ertrlcate
all the dead ard the smel1 0f bodles f1l1ed the
hosp1tal. Three students were kllted. lut {ar
dds uar. So q- rebullt L\c hoE!,tal ouL Ne nevc.
gof oroilnd -o Ilx .g rne basFben.. Ihe enct;er
1s stl1l fllleit vlth rubbte ard Hater. Aftep the
Parls agreenent, Klsslnger cee here ana pronlseit
us three n11l1on dollars to rebulld tbe hoslItal,

O n e l h l n g L ' a - 1 s p a r r t c . r a r - J , I n t a r e s u l n g a D o u Ur n i s a s p e c L

of tne war lE lhe near reverence they loId for the B-52 bohber. To
then, tbe B-52 svibo]1zes ,ADerlcats techrologlcal supertorlty. The
nost lopular exhlblt ln lnelr ntlltary nuseun 1s the Freckaae ot a
B-52 that bad bee! shot do{n by MI0-21s. To then, B-52 srrlkes are
Lhe cf rr6s nosL nor-- ra-nln6 abouc. Ano qnen L.eJ s!arL Latylra
about these ralds, tielr faces actuatly change. They sayr ho--
tney,11 never forget. The nenory of A-52 strlkes r11t stay ts1th
then longer than a.ythtng else In the rar. rt,s ihe one thlng rhey
feel the nost free to ralk abour.

( IJNIDENTIIIID ) : Mlght they be lrone to remedber every Aqerlcan a1c

 6t!1ke ae a B-52 raldt

BnoYlES: Io, they kio{ the dlfference. you can go to any vIIlage,
€nd they can te11 you exactly rhat tyles of planes rere carlylng
bombs, Tbey toor {hen tbey nere attacked__the exact
dates,,.hor 4any n15s1ons... ho{ tuny funs. Ir n4s extraordllary.
They kror everythlng. They can descrlbe the dlfferent Dodltlcatlons
@de to the F-[s and A-4s. They know hore than I do about our own

BATHi, Matbe we should lncrease ihe dlstrlbutlon of our '!!or

comentl edltlon of ,,The Air {6r

BioYlES: !1sten, they {outat go fo. It, Th1. Bas a life and death
t]llng for then, od they are very lliotsledgeable.- No contuslon on
thel. part ar a1I. those klds h rhe nIlita.y nuseumvere looklng
at the !1eces of the domed B-52 11ke rher rere seelDs
a arear
dythologlcal beasr thar had been sta1n.
I xent to the textlte tom of Ne Danh, enlch had been h1t
ha!d. The Peolle's Connlttee trad tbe recolds, rou have a seat and
they brtnA out rbe fotders. They have folarers on eve.ythlng, ,trn
carerul notes snil photosraphs. They have dlvlded the alr wa! tnro
tso pe.lods: the lyndon B. Johnson period and the Rlcbald I,1. Nlxon
perlod. one lerson 15 1n charae of eacl: perlod. a wonab ope.ed
the l11e on the LBJ lerlod and .ead,
...Du'tng Dhls perlod N4 DInh Has oonoeo
r 1 h e B , 1 n c L u d 1 1 g8 2 n j s h t . a l d j . Id9
S1,cy te;;;n!
werede5t.oJed...
She gave he lots of exanltes. gere's one:
 , . . o 1 A p Jl l 1 ! , 1 9 6 6 r h e . e k d s a r a t d a g a : n s L
qang Tau S!!-e! a. Oo-5. T.p
cnrtdren fle.e
gerilna .FadJ for sc.oo_ . flany of Lheb iire
a m o n aL h e 4 9 o e o p t a k I I _ - d . Ino hundred and
d e s b . o y e d .. .

/
.,_..0! June 12, l9?2 he had rhe iarsest rald on
rlg
ruz ?bo1bl fb:s : pr , *.,_)-_L f ob ounr o sp: rpat pne. sa r t a c ' e d .d r o p p F o
cxpLoslve bobb3.
nany peolre d1ed...

I asked then, i'!hy dld tbe Ane.lcans boEb here?lt ?h1s 1s f,ha,

,..rhe An..1cdns Hou_d Doso iheneve4 LhaJ ssh

rr6nrs or crords or ary algns o" 1ife. -here
,e.e no m'rrLa.y ra4geLs. !L rss Jushpsycho_
,ogr.ar. Th-J desr do-dtto.r;s, schools,
{ l h d e r g a r r e n a , n o s p"lot ay 1e sd. . .

siAESti rr rn other Nords, clvllian h;sers ohry...

BioYLES: any !eo!1er they sa1d, ,ere 'rL1tled trlce 1n these

records. they would be {ounded 1n one .ald, cerrled off to a
no6pltal, tnen bonbed asa1n. one of tte Vletnauese sa1d, iyou
knor, tne a!€rlcans bonbed so nuch th.t after a {hI1e our
bega! to get bored bJ 1t. The slren {outd go otf sbd {e
ranr i.ger our of bed or leave the table to go to the shelter,
,Not aaaln,,He {ould thlnk. ,Not nox...ri

BnLESIiUP: You ouaht to have a rootnore on it:rs.

lnfeous Earrtson Satlsbury rr1!
He tras taken ro N@ D1nh, where h e m e t r l t h that see People's
connlttee. and sallsburJ cee aNay f r o m t h a t 0 e e t l n g s a y l n g t h € t
nll1tary targets. thd later, the feous letter fron
 Broyles - 36

the Navy avlator cee 1!r saylng, rlf there rere no nllltary targets,
tbeD {hy dld NaE Dlnh ilght up {ltlr entlalrc.6ft ft.e every tlne re
got anytrbere near the plece?" lourd better belteve tbere ,ere
n111tar9 targets there...

BROYLES. Certa1nly. tnd I s61d to then, rlook__Nan Dlnh 1. not

qulte the helpless lrovlnclal tom
iou have ueer porrraylna. There
a r e g a s o l l n e s t o r e A et a n k E h e ! e . . . h e a v , e q u l p n e D t . . . t h e r ev e r e a n t t ^
alrclaft baiterIes...',
lut the Vletneese usustly c@e up Nlth a way ro Jugrlfy {hat
they d1d. I renember telklng to one Anerlcan pl1ot before uy trl,p
to vletne. He 6a1d that durlng one of h1s bonblns runs he blssed
otre of h1r targeta and dcclitentalty hlt a church, He kas aEazed ,o
3ee ihe churdh blor u!, rlth bwe €econdery exlloslon€. rt ds
obvloud ihat tle No.th Vletneese had been keeplns enunttlo! anit
hlgh exlloslves 1n the church. Lhen I asked bJ, losrs aboufthlE,
hefe's tshat they sald:
lte would not have had antlalrcraft
h a v e . k e p t ,o r u n l r l o . L our churches.!I you had
ror F{ b o a b l n g J s . r e e e f a r o t a L b a c k i n sy o l .
carrters. rou were a.uackt.g us,
ae nad ro protecL ourset\es.
lheh I asked then vhat 1t felt llke to be out tn ,he open,
trylng to shoot atorn alr!1anes. j|hey said that rhey had so @ny
volunteers thai they lad to have etectlons to be
SunDers. Everybody
{ahted to get out tlere and shoot doen alrplanes. They seemed to
nave d cbllalllke aonderhent *hen ihey talked about tte bravory
of
rnerlcan p11ot3 aho flef stralghr lnto rhe teerh of rhe s!ll detenses.
But thelr obvl6us adntratlon was ttnged wlth plty. Ir nust have
 Brotles - 37

been the ray that qeUhaton'. lntanrry thought about the irench
lahcers they encountered. Ahe Vlelneese narveled at !!e *ay the
AEerlca! p1lots telt dlvlrs lnto luch tntelse antlat.craft ,1re.

(UNIDINTIFIED) | Dld the North vletneese sho{ any hat!€d torald

the aferlcans, desplr. rhe1. adnl.atlon fo! the bfavely of the

BRoYIES: {e11, yes. Ttrey a1{ays sald lbeJ had aleat hatred. And
I asked p.actlcally everybody th16 questlor, nDo you have bat.ed
tdard the aDerlcans?r' anal the ansyer wss usually:
Y e s . y o u o o E b e oo u r v l t t a g e s a h d y o u b o o b e q
our clr1es. But f,e .ealtze th6t you Here
, l c t r m s o ' t h - t n p e r t a t l s L v a r e o n a e rc t l q u e
1 n w d s h 1 4 g r o n ...

IRINK: Do you tht.k there was a losslb1l1ty that the.e would have
bee! an a1l our derlal as5au1!.,.

BltoYlES: Over and above the Chrlstnas bonblra?

S!'ll,{oNs: tlatrs our nyrtrologt of rle fa.--co.rect1on, the alr

foree,s nythology of the tsa!.

BRIESI'RUP. P1ke,s argunent 1s ihet they Eould noi

rhe kar. Tney Just Foulit have a a 1 d ,
"Let,. not do

BROIIES: They clalned tha! tney slot doh ue f l r 8 t B - 5 2 i

ln 1972.
three of thelr I,tls prtots made the tiilt.. one or these lent on to
b e c o n ea c o s h o h a u t , f o r t h e s o v l e t s . I t a t k e d to rrlm lo! nea.1y an
hour. I r6s real1y lnterested tn ho{ 1t felt to h1a to be shoothg
down e B-52 becau8e o? the transltlon be lad been through--fro! a
boy sho be.ded {ater buffaror to el.crafi necbanlc, to Jei pIlot,
to coaEoneut. Sfter belbg a Jet p11ot fof nearly 20 year6, he now
has about a tbousend bouls ot f11eht tlEe, countlng h1s conbat
the. Th13 seeEs l1ke an lncredlbly Bnal1 eourt of llme for d 20-
year plIot. IEhrt lt?

BATIA: Yes, 1? sure Is...

B i o Y t r E S : W e l l , t o g o o n . . . r h e n I ' d questlon tbem about thelr

r e a c t l o n t o a n a l l - o u t a l r d s s a u l t , ihet {ou1d Just fal] back.upon
i h e l r v e r s l o n o t h l s t o r y . T h e n e v e r dld s6nt to alve s tbln8 aray
to ne, lbey rould Eay t;hat:
. . . I n 1 9 4 5 , { e c o n E r o l l e d I i a n o l , a r t r r e m d u ea
decLstonro lealF Iu th ord.. to go back lnEo
w c r e . e p e r f e . b t y p r e p a 4 e or o
ne had Lo. Even the .n.tsrnas
bonblrg ol 1972 d1d lot natter th4t nuch. be-
cause even befo.e rhat bonblns started ,i) trad
wor {lsslnge.rs 4pp.oval for {.ep1.A forces !n

It xas the Eee o1d 11ne every tlne. Thetr reasonlng {ou1d
.un along the l1!e3 ot, rtie're not saylng that the bonblng forced
us ro the negoilailng table, bui even 1f 1t d1d, lt d1d not do
anythlns io help you H1n tbe wsr.r' h other words,

BATg,{; AnotheP aslect nlnlng ot HalphonS

harbor. thai itld they

BioYtES: I dldn't get tnto that, but now that you mentlon lt, I
 Broyle8 - 39

SEULIMSo]I: I have a dlfferent questlo!. A Ma.lne vetelan of ure

conbhed Actlon Proarm tras Ju6r beer glven pernlsslon ro v1s1t
Vlet!tu. 4nd t{o Cdgregslonal subconnlitee delesarlons are mkllA
the trI!. one, headed hy sonny Monrgobery, 1s ove. tbere nor. The
oibe., headed by Stepheh Sotarz) 1s golng there on Decflber 15th,
Does th16 lndlcate a cerlaln olenIna u! of the Vletnanese soclety?
Do you titnk that they woltd be ,lulng to retease some of thelr
Pecoros on the {a!?

BROYIES: I don't loof. I thlnk tie sltu6i10. 16 a 10t no;e

conlucated than 1t appears on the lurface. pdr! oi 1t soeE ro
therr overatt roretat slrrarto.. They are lrylng desperar;ly !o
establlsh better relatlors, eslecially rlth us, but they have a
nunber of fear8. They sa{ vbat re dld 1n Taitran, uder pressu.e
froh tbe rralntand chlnese. TbeJ' are terrlfled about the proslect
of beconlng delendent upon Sovtet su!!ort, then havlng the Sovlets
hard thd over to the Chlne€e. They are tatrlng very nodest tIlst
€teps to dlscard sone of rhe Marxlsr liteology, to lnprove lndustrlal
plannlng. But ti:e hlgneEt ranklna oiflclals, the otder guys, have
a renarkably conservatlve ale{ of the world and of thelr €oclery.
They latk conatantly about latrlotlsn, d1sc1!l1ne, un1ty, anit
aacrlflce. Itra l1ke talklng io Jer.y Fattrel1. They see ,he
eftects of uestern cultu.e on t!e1! country__1elt over froh the tre.
and silu com1n81n--arid tbey see these etfects as belDg tremendously
corroslve. The 3outh ls renarkabty unchanged. theyrve put ln a
 Broyles - 40

leN co-operatlves, but ten year6 have gone by and I thlnk they've
bade a ba31c dec1610n nor eo nak€ ure south llke the Norlh. ,And I
Lhtnl{ !1ar bastc6_IJ rfp South has renslned Lnchan8ed.

happened to a1l the lnerlcah gear

BROyLES: [ell, Aolna back to a polnt I @de earller about the near_
total abdence ot 61gns that a {ar Na6 evert touSht there, you Just
donit aee nuch evldence of Arerlcan sear. lbe Russlans nai be
u31ngsone ol ltjb u t o n n y d ! 1 v e p a 6 t C e R a n hB € y I C l d n ' i s e e
muc",rn ny ^as-al -yeostL!n6'

ab@t the rallroad, and alt rhe brldaes

-that {ere
lot rertored the rall.oadr have they?

BROII]ES: The r 3 l 1 c o a d . u n s f r o n H a . o l t o S a l A o n .

SIMlloxS: Really? And theyive reptaced atl the bf1d8er...

BRoYIES. there rere tvo eaJs to Aet from North to South, golng
overland. one 1s ihe rallroad and the ottrer 1s Slghray t1. soulh
of Chu Ld1, there 1B nothlne on the road. I!,s 11ke drlvlng 1n
West Te*as. You see no cars. Ard the rallroad tatres alnost forever,
constantly late, but It does run. Bur slnce there,s no tratflc, I
don,t see hor they can have iuch connerce novtng bet{ee! North and
south. Back h r975r there {as a great deal ot back and forth,
because eyerybody {as trtlhe to see thel! tah1l1e6. But ny gu1de,
who was fron the North, had never been 1n rrhesouth before.
 Brcyles-,ll

BA!B: You 6poke ea.11er about the llnger1ng effects of lhe l{este.n
culture that has been hpo6ed o! the South. Do tbe No.thelne.s
have a percelt1on about ho{ nany generatlonB lt nay take to
ovelcohe that klnd of thh8, 1t ever?

SRoYLas: rGtua1ly, thlngs are novlng 1n exactlJ' the olloslte

dlrectlon. lor exelle, o, tie tbtrtleth annlversary of the
levolutlon 1n llanol, they had a b18 corcert 1n Irenln park. They
had a lrogre of popular anal patrlottc nuslc, and they bad tlve
rock and ro11 bends. the flrst four of these bands rere fron
ganol. Pretty rlMdrun. Bui tbe flfth band {as troo Salgon, and
{as 1ed by a suy *ho came bounclng out on tne staEe 1lke Mlck
Jagger. suddenly, the r<1dstn ihe audlence cee al1ve. They we,r
,lld. a n d; f ! e r l h e s a L a o n D a n df 1 n 1 s h e o , r h e p ; t r 1 o ! 1 c n u 6 r c
s t c . l e d u p a a a l n , € n d e r e r y b o o yq e . t h o d e .

IiAESTRUP: They lost the war, afte! allt (taushte.)

BROII,ES: r L ' s r e a 1 l J n a p p - . l n s . I 1 H s , o l , p e o p t eh a v e t o l o n e
that tbroug! 19!1, 1t Nas Just l1xe rartlEe, Ererybody was rldtlg
b1cyc1es. No{ yourre ataril.g to see notorcycles; you're startlnA
to see cars. Ahd soEe of the old ttners are beg1nnlhA to wo.der tf
1t HaS Horth 1t to contlnue flAhtlng an.l endure all the hardshlp
for thlrty years or so, Just so thelr ottsprinA can Eear tong !at.
anal rlde apound on thelr Hondas and llsten to rock Eus1c. The klds
really 1lke Anerlcan thlngs. they *oulat rather have Anerlca! btue
Jeans than the ones they can get tron Ta1{an. They {1tt glve you
lette!. to take to tlelr relatlves 1n Callfo.lia. In the bars,
lhey look doN! on the East Eulopeahs anat the Sovlets, abd
l<ee! .aJlng
 Aroyles - 42

th1ngo I1ke, ,'l4er1ca! nwbe. one. Nubbe! one. Rea1IV good.i

I thlnk that nany peo!1e ln vlernd know lhat {e can Atve lhen
w h a t t h o y { a n t 1 n t h e t u t u l e . , , a n d t h o R u s g l a n sc a n r t . I {ent
arourd I Colps wlth a t<1d{bo hait Ju6t cone back fron 6even years
1n the sovlet Un1on. Ee {a6 a hsnd-plcked CoEnuntst. And the
f1.6t tXlna he asked be was about Mlchael Jackson. I sa1d, rDon't
you 1lke Ruoslan buslc?,' rt sas evtdent that he iUdnr! 11ke
It aB
huch a. he llk€d rock. So thts ctearty 1s xhat,s hdppenllA. ,4!d I
ihlnrr the vlernaoese 1eade.sh1! Is comlng to rhe loInr ,here they
are solng to lave io nake a tough dec16ton. Etrher they are Aotng
to Xave to ackno$ledee the perhslve lnfluence of Weste:n cultupe
o n i h e l r 6 o c l e t y r a n d f 1 ! d a { a y t o a c c o m n o d a t et o 1 t , o r e l s e
they are aolng to have to try and etani 1t out ruthlessly, wlrh
sooe type of ulheaval ihat 1s slmllar io rhe ehbese cu1tu.a1
revolutlon, @ybe toned dom a btt,

FRANK: vlhet about the ]4IAB?

BROYLES: I spent a lot ot ihe on tat. I went to the JcRc 1n

BanAkok before I entered Vletnu, anat got some !ane6 no cneck on.
Everywhere l went 1n VletnM, I asked about ine I4tAs. I ratked t.
4 nMber of lulopeansr and I got mdhy an.{ers 11ke, lohr ye6. I,{e
3 a { t h 1 3 A D e r l c a no n a { o r k l n a l a r t y I n s u c h e n d E u c b a p l a c e . , . n
But you could neve. traok anythhg dor!. No fl.Er_hsnat rrtnesses.
Alsays so&ebody else |{ho 6a{ lhe illd!, FoP lnBtance, "oo and tlnd
t h d ! S a e d oa t s u c h a n d s u c h a p t a c e . , ' S o I , d g o ! ! e r e a n d f l n d
a
s e e a t e{ h o h a t c h e d t h e d e B o r h t l o n . B u r h o r d a n s s e r , L o h n o ,
lhat,s
noi n6, Thd guy you nahr {ent back.to Syeden.,r
 lroyles - 43

I only found one rrue eye{1rnes6, a Canadtan. He sald thai ne

rar 1n a boat golng ito{n the Mekobgwhen he sas a blond nan {ear1n€
shorts, valklng along the rlver bark. !,hen the canadlan eot close.,
ne beard the @n talklna to hhselt h Ene1lsh. Bui when the blond
nan saw the canadlan, ie stlpped lnto the Junale and dlsappea.ed.
I told thls stort to d Vletneese orflclal, ahd he satd only that
there nlght st111 be a deselrer or tso on the 1oose. I couldnrr
get anythlng out of hlm. so I sratched the subJect to the questlon
ol recoverlng ihe renalns of Aherlcdn servlcehe!. The Vletnanese
offlclal then sald an lntereetlnS thlng:
Loolr, put your8eu 1! our ptace. You've been
to all these ceneterles. Every v1l1age ha6
a cenetery. Noi, rc tost hundpeds of thousand6
ot nen 1n the {ar. But all or_our tlshters
are burled 1n the south, a{ay fron thelr hobe
vlllages. rL-J are noL lr lhose g4dves t. tnelr
,' laae cenci..re3. ve d.nrr /iow {nere LLe
aPaves of hau of then are. How can {e go out
ahd te1l our peopte that lt's hore lnportant to
look lor Aoerlcens than for thelr oM sons and

( INIDENTII'I ED) : 8111, could yo! sun@rIze wbat effect yourd tlke
you! irlp to have on your lntended leaders...

BioYLES: \rlell, the trl! left ne very lelplexed. Ifter golng back
and 8eelng the places {here {e fought, renenberlng all the people I
kneH Nho dled there, all the erergy and efiori expended, the n111tary
and natlohal reputatlon that yas at stake...the legenerative quallty
of the land abd the culture nake 1t a1I seen tike such a waste,
becarse vletnm todal looks nuch as though nothhS eve. halpened
ihere. obvlously ny Vletnm exlerlenee brouaht abour rany changes
beneath the surlece In my tlfe, but 1t 1s stll1 harit
teelln8 ihat nothlrg today 1s any dtlfe.enr. That 1t

anotbe. thlna I m cadylng around 1E anSer aboui the fln4l

staee ol tbe qar. I thirl< that ltrs pos61b1e to udelstard nhat se
dld u! unt1l the 1968 Tet offqnslve. Then {e decldeit that ,e lad
hade an lncorlect analy516 of the sltuatlon. ltle bad done our
nltltary best and hed not been defeated nll1tartlyr but Ne declded
as a natlor that the conmltBents {e had made rere beyond our {111-
hgness to fuulll thtu. so {hat rakes ne bliter about ihe {a! 1s
the say 1i was d.agged out ber{een 1959 and 1973. ,hI1e all the
sheellng ahd deallng {as ao1n8 o!, leople aere gettlng k1}1ed..,
A-rerlcan t.oops rene getttng k1lled...and no longer for a Aood
reason, after {e hed decldeit td pull out. Rlcharat Nlxon spent nore
days as a wartlEe presldent than Roosevett. Anil that to ne sa€

I asked sone of the tlet Cong 1t they had @ny cases of !osr-
€yndrone or ahythlng 1lke that. No{, these are
people yho llveil 1n tunnels. I {ent rtoqn 1! some of these tunnels,
and I wanted out p.etty qulcl<ty--1n about thlrty nlnutes. Bur they
llved 1n those thln$. r o r t e n y e a r s . I h e y H e r e b o m b e d .T h e J
vere nalalned. In te.&s ot shee. punlahnent, the rar was nuch
worse for them than for u3.
But they have none of these delayed stress 6ynptoms,
one nohan told ne that the nonent she hears a hellcolterr 3be
fa11s to the ground. But she adds, 'rot course, I don't hear nany

helloopten. anyho.e...,l
 Broyles - 45

They talkec about sevelal dlftereices betseen the Vletnahese

and the Amerlcan experlencesi

Flrst, tle rar lor then {as sori of 4 sbared natlonal exler1ence,
on the alde that eventually ppevalled. Everyone 6ha.ed in 1t...the
long fdlty separatlons,.,the sufferlng. But slnce they ron, the,
sacrlllce las yorth 11. In fact, the only tlne they use ihe aetuar
1s rhe! they are talklng about death.
The second dltfelence 1s that they have been too busy to tihk
ihe hard6l!1pB they suftered. one @n told ner t'\re'ye been so
rebulldlhg the country, 1t was so hard to {1n, 1i never occured
L h s b p - 6 c e c o u _ do e 3 p r o b _ e r . l

Flnally, theyrre Just not as lntro€lectlve as we are about

these thln8s. Therets no self-preoceulat1on. If you ale u6ed to
torklng th a rice !4ddy lo! slrteetr hours e day, seven days a reek,
1t takes a 1ot to mke you start feellnA sorrJ for yourself.

BRAISTRUP. I thlnk that one of the probteng {lth the trhole Vletnan
tbl.a ls that the uar 1€ deplcted--and Nevsreek Is a !r1ne oftender,
along wlth me-- as ktnd ol an apocalyltlc expertence. you kno{ rhe

blt: "No {ar honlble to the people flghrlna 1r aB the

V1etlan var...t' Thls 1s part ot a pervaslve lsycho-babble, generated
by psychologlsts and others {ho are rrortllg out thelf ord anti-{ar

$ases a5 ihelr last tlne ol retreat. ?heJ say the reason fo. tne
siress syldrone 1s that our people {e.e lorced to do rhlngs they
dIdn,t {ant to do, to lntllct all klnds of brutalttles, by the
nature of the var itself. Vell, h1stor1cal1y, ihat Just doesn'r
stand up, so a lot or the psycho-babble ls extraneous and hlstorl,
 B r o y t e s- 4 6

cal1y klnd of !ecu11ar.

uhlch brlbgs ne to a second polnt: A b1a dlfference tor the

Vletnaq veterans 1s lhe treatneht ihey sot {ren rhey rerurned hone.
Now, I vent lnio the Korean var, rhlch had 1rs o{n tltite noeentd
of pleasure. You had to look hard enougn !o flnd those 11tt1e
nor 1l8ten ro rhe psyeho_babb1e. Nov, tnele tend6 ro
be a leap of neholy last by ,a!, They a1w6y3 conlare vleinM io
I,{or1d War II, Nhen tbey tafk about veterans conrng hohe. fhls ts
rot unusual, because nobody leys eny aiteDtlon to the I(oreab velerans.
Whe. {€ cane hoEe fron Korea, nobody t. rhe nedla or acadenla
t.eated us as vlctlhs o! psrchopaih6. Ve Jusn cane hone. No ole
pald muc! attentlon to u6. It waE not a popurdr rar, but ,e {ere
not acalesoats, But when the Vleinm velerdls
people aho spat at then. ?hatre the illfference. ,snal that h6s a
real effect on hos you revletr your om exler1erce. The Bhole Vletnan
Menorlal nassle {as qutre clearly recognlilon fo! {har
rhey,d done. They *anted to be treated 11ke otlre. vef,erans. Ind
that Ba8 Hhat the flaht over rte llag Fas ar1 about.
lole

aROlLEs: I thlnk rhab,6 all lrue,

sIMl,{oNs: If Jou only have one warr ,hat u!

Jou oompare 1r ylth?
If you have three rers, four rers, flve ,a.s, you have soEeihlng
ro
compare, Iron ny perspectlver vletnm {as a rend.k4bly
confortable
var. y o u b a a re t t r e 1 v e - m o n t h
tour...you had R&R...youc;ne back
from latrot to the flre support base and you had the
steak and
.hrh! kaltlng for you..,you had your stereo ser. It sas not that
eay 1b l1'olld Iar II. tnit tt {a€ not thar {ay ln ,he Korerrn fap.
 Broyles - 47

I dldn,t ihlnk v€ {e!e aolra io have tle6e paychlatrlc !.ob1ems.

I thougit all these supports trould lreclude that...

B R A E S T R U PY:o u d l d n ' t h a v e t h e n t h e l e j y o u l 1 a dt h 4 back he.e...

SIMMONS: Ilel1r yeo and no. And anotler polnti reuarkably fet
peolle 1n Vletne actua".lJ itld any flahtlng.

BaOYIES: True.

SIMMONS: Very fes. Antt look at all those veterana pho turn up at
the Vletnen enorlal anil other places. If all the guys rho say, trI
{as rlth tie speclal lorcesn Nere reatty {1th the steclal xo.ces,
then ihey {ouIdn,t have needed the Marlne Corls.

BioYLES: fberers oother polnt to @ke on th16. Sone of the peolle

I knoH, who elther volunteered or were drafted, rere not the best-

adJusied nenbers of our soclety ln the flrst place. They were not

exactly the backbohe ol thelr cohnunlty. So I thlnl< yourl1 flnd

that some of the people--by all-{no have .eal problens

norr alter the rar, are people Nho qulte 11kely would have had
p.obl-as ar\{a/. B.t, T do ,L ra.L Lo mlnlmlze thelr p.oblens.

(UNIDENTMED): No, I donit want to nlnlmlze this eltler. But I

w111 say th1s. You loolr at a proflle (I'n talktng of a denog.aphlc

!rof11e ol 1nd1vidual6 vlo are 1n veterans ho8pltalo, u.der

therapeutlc treatdent for.!o3!-6tress syndlone) and loo]{ at soclo-

e c o n o n l cl e v e l s . , . a t e d u c a t l o n a l1 e v e 1 3 . ,. a n d t h e r e a r e s o n e
reveatlng Urln$ the.e, Theoe lndlvlduals were l1kely to have had
 Broytes - 48

d1ftlculty...I couldn!r docubentrh13 and,outdn,i even trJ. posr-

3tre36 sJnatrone reeuy takes rbe forn of a 10! of people
sesrchlnS

SIMMoNSI tlat I .uggest thet thls 16 a good

!o1n, to b.eak for

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