Talk:Q27686

hotel (Q27686) vs. hotel building (Q63099748)

@ŠJů, Fralambert: I noticed your edits adding subclass of (P279):building (Q41176) and subclass of (P279):commercial building (Q655686) to this item. I had previously removed those subclasses and created hotel building (Q63099748) to represent the architectural structure; in my idea then hotel (Q27686) would be the business enterprise offering lodging that occupies the building. I found this distinction to be particularly useful when dealing with historic buildings that were formerly operated as hotels but that were subsequently converted to another use: Globe Hotel (Q56277176) is an example. This distinction between the architectural building and the organization that occupies it is used elsewhere on Wikidata as well: school (Q3914) vs. school building (Q1244442), church congregation (Q2638480) vs. church building (Q16970), etc. I would like to return to the building/organization division with hotels as well. Given my rationale, does either of you object?

I am also pinging User:Vojtěch Dostál and User:Edward who may have thoughts on this issue. — Ipoellet (talk) 03:09, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

The division between the building and the enterprise is very imporant. In the most important areas, Wikidata already have both items available (one remaining case to be solved is restaurant vs restaurant building). I'm against categorizing Q27686 as a class of building - it's mixing up two concepts. There are many cases where it is apparent why we need to separate the two concepts. --Vojtěch Dostál (talk) 07:03, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

The problem is that we have also hotel industry (Q1285245) and hospitality industry (Q1495452) for the buisiness. --Fralambert (talk) 19:47, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

@Fralambert: hotel industry (Q1285245) and hospitality industry (Q1495452) refer to the entire sector of the economy composed of hotels and hospitality-related businesses and business activity, while the proposal is that hotel (Q27686) would refer to an individual business establishment. So hotel industry (Q1285245) corresponds to "hotels in Canada", while hotel (Q27686) corresponds to Château Frontenac (Q745964). Fairmont Hotels and Resorts (Q1393345) is neither one, but rather a business (Q4830453) that is a part of the hotel industry and owns Château Frontenac. The Château Frontenac (Q745964) item should be an instance of both hotel (Q27686) and hotel building (Q63099748), because the item can refer interchangeably to both the business establishment and the architectural structure. — Ipoellet (talk) 04:06, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

With no further discussion, I am proceeding on the assumption consensus has been reached. I.e. removing the statement subclass of (P279):commercial building (Q655686) from hotel (Q27686). — Ipoellet (talk) 21:43, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

@Schwede66: I have removed your edit. Please consider difference between hotel (Q27686) and hotel building (Q63099748) Vojtěch Dostál (talk) 20:29, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Fine by me. Schwede66 (talk) 21:49, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

Barbouze method: shoot first, ask questions next

@Ipoellet:, do you want us to discuss before or after your cancellation? My modification was calculated, it is not by chance: my modification prevented an error on Gustave Flaubert Literary Hotel (Q60833068). In my turn, I suggest you correct the errors in this Item, like official language (P37)Russia (Q159), for example. Recoin will inform you about errors. —Eihel (talk) 15:12, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

@Eihel: Please refer to the above discussion which, to the best of my knowledge, represents existing consensus regarding this matter. Please note that the previous existing consensus is also "calculated, not by chance": having instance of (P31)geographic entity (Q27096213) incorrectly defeats the constraints at NRHP reference number (P649). As for Gustave Flaubert Literary Hotel (Q60833068), since that item apparently refers to both the hotel business and the hotel building, the correct way to address your concern is to give it both instance of (P31)hotel (Q27686) and instance of (P31)hotel building (Q63099748), which I have done for you. So, do you have any additional comments to add to the existing discussion, or should we revert to the consensus (i.e. hotel (Q27686) not a geographic entity (Q27096213))?  – The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ipoellet (talk • contribs) at 26 August 2019 at 20:21 (UTC).

Hotels have again instance of (P31) of architectural structure (Q811979)

This item has again instance of (P31) of architectural structure (Q811979). That plainly contradicts the consensus above, where the hotel is the organization, and it is clearly different from the hotel building. I think the change should be reverted.

I ping participants in previous discussions @Vojtěch Dostál, @Ipoellet @Edward. Pere prlpz (talk) 20:46, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

It seems this has now been fixed, thanks for flagging the issue Vojtěch Dostál (talk) 07:58, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

@Dave.Dunford: Please see the discussions in this page before adding again building properties to this item.

And just in case the parcicipants in this discussion may be interested in a similar one about museums in Talk:Q33506#Museums_need_the_properties_of_museum_building, I ping @Vojtěch Dostál, @Ipoellet @Edward.--Pere prlpz (talk) 11:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

OK. I added it because there are lots of listed buildings (my area of interest) that are instanced as hotel (Q27686) and which give constraint violations because hotel is not a subclass or instance of architectural structure (Q811979). I wasn't aware of the discussion above, or of hotel building (Q63099748) – I'll use that in future. It makes sense – there is a similar relationship between school (Q3914) and school building (Q1244442), which I was already familiar with (but not with, for example, pub (Q212198), where the building and the organisation are not distinguished. Dave.Dunford (talk) 13:20, 28 May 2024 (UTC)