Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium

Wiktionary > Discussion rooms > Etymology scriptorium

WT:ES redirects here. For help with edit summaries, see Help:Edit summary. For information about Spanish entries on Wiktionary, see Wiktionary:About Spanish.

Click here to start a new Etymology scriptorium discussion.

Wiktionary discussion rooms (edit) see also: requests

Information desk start a new discussion | this month | archives Newcomers’ questions, minor problems, specific requests for information or assistance.

Tea room start a new discussion | this month | archives Questions and discussions about specific words.

Etymology scriptorium start a new discussion | this month | archives Questions and discussions about etymology—the historical development of words.

Beer parlour start a new discussion | this month | archives General policy discussions and proposals, requests for permissions and major announcements.

Grease pit start a new discussion | this month | archives Technical questions, requests and discussions.

All Wiktionary: namespace discussions 1 2 3 4 5 – All discussion pages 1 2 3 4 5

Etymology scriptorium

Welcome to the Etymology scriptorium. This is the place to cogitate on etymological aspects of the Wiktionary entries.

October 2024

PIE *wértti

I see Ringe reconstructs this, but is there any other source? (or what is Ringe's source?) Because 1) the Sanskrit present verb 'vartti' turned out to be an augmentless mediopassive aorist 'varti', and 2) for the Germanic and Latin verbs I only find thematic reconstructions. Exarchus (talk) 19:05, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

German werden is most obvioulsy based on was, war, konjunktiv wäre, konjunktiv II würde. Basing anything on that is daunting: "Lastly, the past forms starting with w- such as was and were are from Proto-Indo-European *h₂wes- (“to reside”)." (was).

Analogicaly fahr, fuhr, Furt or in the name of a high ranking soccer team: w:de:Fürth (q.v. Wikipedia adds fränkisch: Färddⓘ/?, jiddisch פיורדא Fiurda). Alisheva (talk) 20:58, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't see why German werden is most obviously based on war, where the r comes from earlier s (see Proto-Germanic *wesaną). Exarchus (talk) 07:41, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

LIV says it too, but I don't understand how varti is a mediopassive aorist.

Anyway, there can't be a root present if there's already a root aorist. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 23:21, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Apparently the term 'mediopassive aorist' is used in current literature for what Whitney calls the 'passive aorist' (3sg. on -i). (It's debatable whether what we give as 'mediopassive' shouldn't simply be called 'middle'.) Exarchus (talk) 07:02, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

He doesn't say so, but it seems like it hinges entirely on the classification of Sanskrit varti as an athematic present. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 18:30, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

If that's all there is to it, then I'd propose to move Latin and Germanic to the thematic present and have *wértti removed. Exarchus (talk) 09:09, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Italian cocchio < Hungarian kocsi?

Italian cocchio looks very much like all the other European words from kocsi and meaning "coach" . . . except . . . why on earth isn't it **coccio? What happened to the consonant? Currently the Hungarian entry gives the Italian as a descendant, but the Italian entry has no etymology.

[I'm on a new computer and can't even find the goddamn tilde button so just imagine I signed this Hiztegilari.] Hiztegilari (talk) 20:13, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Your etymology is correct. I'm fairly sure the consonant shift happened due to mediation of Venetan (or less likely some other northern Italian language) where intervocalic /t͡ʃ/ regularly corresponds to Italian /kkj/. Another occurrence of this phenomenon I encountered is inchiò, regional Italian term used in Venice (which I found only one attestation of and hence can't make an entry) derived from Venetian inciò. I've updated the etymology. Catonif (talk) 20:44, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Very plausible and if correct another great example of two closely related languages artificially reproducing sound shifts by borrowing a word not in the closest phonetic form (Italian could have said *coccio), but according to the usual sound correspondences. This happens a lot, but some people seem to find it hard to understand. I had the discussion recently somewhere up there. 2.201.0.110 05:05, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

That's called a hypercorrection. Vahag (talk) 11:12, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I thought about that, but I don't like what the term could be interpreted as. It makes it sound like Venetan is "incorrect" Italian, whereas this is a mere sound correspondence. In cases of borrowings through bilingualism between closely related languages, many if not most borrowings work by sound correspondence rather than phonetic similarity. Were this to happen the other way around (Italian /kkj/ > Venetan /t͡ʃ/) I don't think anyone would try to claim "hypercorrection", rather "adaptation". Catonif (talk) 14:21, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

It's perhaps remotely related to hypercorrection, but clearly not the same thing. In German dialectology it is called "Einlautung" (literally "in-sounding"). 2.201.0.110 20:16, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

अरविन्द

RFV of connection to kuruvinda. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 22:44, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Proto-Germanic *laubijaną

The sense "to praise"? It appears to me that someone confused this with *lubōną. Or is this actually justified? 2.201.0.110 00:59, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

According to Koebler it is correct, the PGmc term *laubjan means "allow, praise (V.), believe", as evidenced by its North Germanic descendant Old Norse leyfa which means both to "allow" and "praise". Leasnam (talk) 14:23, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I've added "commend" and "laud" to this sense to help put the type of 'praise' in better perspective Leasnam (talk) 15:39, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Common sense holds, I believe, that there is no formal method for the reconstruction of meaning. This is important with respect to Urlaub, leave, Laub, leafs, and fall, or Herbst and 𐀏𐀡 (q.v.). Actually I'm pulling this out of my pocket but the question stands. Alisheva (talk) 19:10, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you! I wasn't aware of the Old Norse sense and just wanted to rule out a mistake :) 2.201.0.110 20:14, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

niggatry vs. niggardry

Recently a change was made to the etymology of niggatry stating that it is a blend of nigga + wizardry, and as previously stated in the etymology was coined by Uncle Ruckus in the Boondocks (which was originally added by myself). However, the meaning of the word implies otherwise, as there is no "magical" connotation to how it's used. Looking further into the term coined by the fictional Uncle Ruckus, the word he actually uses [here] is clearly niggardry (blend of nigga + wizardry; different to our entry at niggardry), despite the title of the video reading as "Powerful Niggatry at work". There was obviously a mistake made on the part of the title writer, mishearing niggardry as "niggatry". I suggest based on the use of the word that it is still a blend of nigga and bigotry, and that the reference to Uncle Ruckus should be removed as erroneous. Thoughts ? Leasnam (talk) 14:17, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I suspect it's a blend of nigga and faggotry, which (unlike bigotry) also refers to the collection of stereotypical behaviors of a marginalized group. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:17, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

The old man, not Uncle Ruckus, is widely cited saying nyuka or so, once palatalized, so I'd see fortis t in lieu of d coming from the same place as k for g, with intervocalic lenition on g or progressive assimilation into kt. I do not and cannot hear "niggardry" in your snippet because of Auslautverhärtung. Alisheva (talk) 20:25, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

On second hearing, I can hear it. Alisheva (talk) 20:42, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay, thank you all ! I will restore it to what it was previously as a blend possibly involving bigotry or faggotry and remove the Ruckus reference. Leasnam (talk) 21:01, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

If there is a term niggardry meaning "nigga wizardry" in actual use, I guess it could still warrant an entry, though. Possibly with a "jocular" classifier, or something. Wakuran (talk) 18:01, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

kame (glacial feature)

The glacial feature's Wikipedia page claims the word kame comes from the Old Scottish word kame or kaim meaning 'comb', citing the OED (which I personally cannot access to confirm). ——JavaRogers (talk) 20:50, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

It does. https://www.dictionary.com/browse/kame 24.108.0.44 03:40, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Czech přepona vs. Polish przepona

Is there an etymological connection there? PUC – 20:02, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/pęti Vininn126 (talk) 20:05, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

Horlacea

RFV of the etymology.

We have nothing remotely like the claimed Hungarian forms for the "hound" part, with the Cyrillic [!] one looking suspiciously like a Bulgarian descendant of the Proto-Slavic ancestor, *xъrtъ. That said, the person who added it is usually pretty reliable, so it may just be a language-code mixup. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:47, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Proto-Slavic *velьrybъ

This seems to be a compound word, *velьjь meaning large, and *rybъ meaning fish. In addition, according to this video, *velьrybъ is a calque of Germanic, with *velь reanalyzed to mean big, instead of the IE root *(s)kʷálos. Tobiascide (talk) 06:37, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

French mondrain

Second part seems to be -ain. First part doubtfully from a derivative of mons or more likely from some other colonial language (spanish morro / french morne, moraine with a nasality I can't explain which gave rise to epenthetic /d/ as in craindre, pondre...). The word is of use from the 1710's in New World and sea travel literature, which is fitting if originating from marine vocabulary. Here are the earliest dictionary entries I could find for it :[1] [2] Tim Utikal (talk) 09:44, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps the second part is rain (“raised edge of a field serving as a boundary”) ? Leasnam (talk) 14:33, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Swedish bebis

Possible of course, but my intuition is that it's from English baby + Swedish -is. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 14:37, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Seems probable to me. Svenska Akademien seems to prefer the plural derivation, though. Wakuran (talk) 17:09, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I see it now. I thought only SAOB had an etymology section. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 17:58, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

It's probably really both: the English word was borrowed in the plural, but at the same time it was reinterpreted as containing the diminutive suffix -is. It's sort of like when Arabic كِتَاب (kitāb) was borrowed into Swahili kitabu and then the first syllable was reinterpreted as the singular noun prefix ki-. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:13, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

The singular form baby was borrowed more than 60 years, earlier, and would also have been widely known from English language pop songs and such, though. So at least it doesn't seem to be an obvious case of the plural form borrowed and reinterpreted as singular, as some other Swedish loanwords. Personally, I'm okay with the -is as a sidenote mention, anyway. Wakuran (talk) 20:53, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian žganci

-*žegti ← pbs. *degtei ← ie. *dʰégʷʰeti 

-*žegti already has a page: Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/žeťi

etymology of žganci should link to žegti

link to the original žganci page: žganci 89.164.28.244 12:35, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian perina

The correct translation of the word perina from Serbo-Croatian to English is not pillow, as it appears on the page, but 1. mattress. 2. eiderdown. It can be checked in all dictionaries. PeterDorian (talk) 03:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

This is a wiki; you're welcome to fix it yourself! —Mahāgaja · talk 06:02, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

English god, PGerm. gudą

The etymology currently given has been contested. Kroonen says that if it comes from *ǵʰutós, it's from the root *ǵʰew- (“to pour”) and not from *ǵʰewH- (“to call, to invoke”). He proposes a connection with Old Church Slavonic говѣти (gověti, “to revere”) from a root *gʷʰew. And Beekes says it's non-Indo-European... Exarchus (talk) 11:50, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Given the lack of reactions, I took the liberty to rewrite the etymology at *gudą. Feel free to improve. Exarchus (talk) 14:48, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Looks good! —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 17:23, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

-mans

is there a source for -mans being "[c]ognate with English -ment, French -ment and Italian -mente"? it seems plausible enough, but the OED doesn't make this link at all ("Origin uncertain. Perhaps < man n.¹ + ‑s (‑s suffix² or plural ending ‑s); or perhaps simply a playful distortion of ‑ness suffix"). it feels like we should at least include the OED's suggestions and make clear that the etymology is ultimately uncertain; the present claim should also be sourced if possible.

the etymology section also previously claimed that the suffix is "[f]rom Latin mēns (“mind”)", which seems altogether unlikely (and introduces contradictions— English -ment, etc., ultimately from L. -mentum, is unrelated to L. mēns). i've deleted that line. ragweed theater _{talk, user} 13:56, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

рискаша

It's the Pannonian Rusyn word meaning "rice". Any kind of rice. The рис- (ris-) component makes sense (although рис (ris) is listed in the dictionary with only non-rice-related senses), but -каша (-kaša)? Does it literally mean "rice porridge"? And if so, how did it come to mean just rice in general? I'm stumped with this one. And for all I could find, there's no terms in the dictionary where you could build some sort of diminutive or derivative to form the word рискаша (riskaša). Insaneguy1083 (talk) 19:15, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

It is borrowed from Hungarian rizskása (“rice; rice pudding”) from rizs +‎ kása, whence also Romanian rișcașă, Slovak ryzkaša, Serbo-Croatian riškaša, Carpathian Rusyn рішкаша (riškaša). Vahag (talk) 20:11, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I see! I had suspected it to be a Hungarian borrowing, but I suppose I just looked up the wrong term. I was trying to look for something along the lines of *riszkasa.

I then wonder though - how did the Hungarian term gain the sense of "rice" from "rice pudding"? Doesn't quite add up from a semantic standpoint. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 20:37, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I guess the pudding/ porridge was the main rice-based dish in the area. Wakuran (talk) 21:48, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

And also in this case, would rizskása count as a Wanderwort? I suspect not, purely because it's heavily dialectal or even obsolete in most of the mentioned languages bar Romanian and Pannonian Rusyn. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 21:57, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

I've added the Hungarian entry, please feel free to add any appropriate descendants. Einstein2 (talk) 22:34, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Proto-Germanic *spōk

I suppose this is not some kind of root noun and hence must be *spōką. However, it seems that it should be moved to West Germanic instead. 2.201.0.110 11:15, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I agree. The Swedish term is from (Middle) Low German. Leasnam (talk) 14:44, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

It's been moved to Proto-West Germanic *spōk. Leasnam (talk) 19:56, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you :) 2.201.0.110 06:38, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

ah

RFV of the etymology. "mid-1400s Old Frankish (replacing English la)." what? ragweed theater _{talk, user} 20:36, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I guess it might just be imitative. Wakuran (talk) 21:44, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Fixed. Leasnam (talk) 05:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Dutch kip and German Kepf

Are the two words related like what etemologiebank.nl claims? What is the proto west Germanic ancestor？ 90.241.180.58 21:14, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

"Kepf" seems to be a very rare or dialectal word in German, all I could find was [3] where it means "Raubvogel" ("Bird of Prey"). The semantics aren't icredibly convincing. Wakuran (talk) 22:00, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

etemologiebank.nl said something different (i dont remember exactly what it was, not that i speak dutch) but it stated a possible connection. 90.241.180.58 22:06, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

There are eight senses listed at etymologiebank.nl, but I couldn't find Kepf listed at either of them; [4] Can you come back when you know where you found the info, so we can see the citations? Wakuran (talk) 22:42, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I believe what the OP is referring to is Dutch keep (a type of finch, brambling (Fringilla montifringilla)). You will see it if you do a search for keep, it's the one labelled "keep (vogelsoort (Fringilla montifringilla))" Leasnam (talk) 23:41, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Alright. Wakuran (talk) 11:50, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

origin though? 90.241.180.58 16:37, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Seems to be unknown, possibly a birdcall. Wakuran (talk) 17:00, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

i dont think birds of prey make birdcalls that can be transcribed as 'kip' 90.241.180.58 18:14, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

chirp, twitter, kvittra, or keifen (cf. "... in a sharp voice"). See also Kiebitz.

Tangentially relatable billy-can, Aussie billy (RfE'd earlier) and obsolete German "Pfeifenkanne", "Schnauzenkanne" (cited as glosses in Altlitauisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch; cf. pipe, pfeifen, piepen; snout, nozzle or schnattern, or schnitzen, notch?) and Schnabeltasse, Schnabel +‎ Tasse, or beaker (if you'll excuse the pun). Alisheva (talk) 21:17, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

Sure they do- hawks tend to have high-pitched calls, and not all of them are drawn out. Anything that cuts off quickly with a short drop in pitch at the end can sound like it has an unreleased final /p/. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:21, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

It wouldn't be the first time a stray letter was added to the end of a bird sound. Tiny Ramsey Island, off the coast of Pembrokeshire in Wales, has an insanely high percentage of all of Britain's (red-billed) choughs (I think it's something like a third or a quarter) and although they're allegedly named after their birdcall, they actually sound as if they're saying either 'chee-ur', 'chee-oh' or 'chee-ow' with a stress on the first syllable. The Old English and Middle English forms of the word listed at our entry seem like better representations of the actual sound of the bird to me. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 06:51, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

As I interpret the hypothesis, the word seems to be derived from an old Germanic/ Proto-Indo-European root, so although it might still be onomatopoetic, it might not be directly connected to the birds' calls. Wakuran (talk) 16:01, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

kikker

Origin? if it is only first attested in Middle Dutch then what was the Old Dutch equivilant? 90.241.180.58 19:11, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Seems to be the unattested frosk, according to vors. Wakuran (talk) 19:32, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, Old Dutch had pūt (> Middle Dutch puut > Dutch puit); but did you intend to ask what the equivalent term was in Middle Dutch being that kikker is only attested in Modern Dutch (from Middle Dutch kikken) ? Leasnam (talk) 20:02, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Also what was the Frankish or proto west Germanic equivalent of the /kɪk.kər/ onematopoea? 90.241.180.58 14:03, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Onomatopoeia doesn't always have Proto-forms, although you can compare with German quäken, English quack, Swedish kväka. (The latter might be borrowed from Continental West Germanic, though.) Wakuran (talk) 14:10, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Now I see we have entries for Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/kwakōną and Reconstruction:Proto-West_Germanic/kwakōn, though. Wakuran (talk) 03:41, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

purree

Claims etymology From a Hindi word for "yellow". Pls expand P. Sovjunk (talk) 21:03, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

This file mentions 'peori' and further Devanagari प्यावडी (pyāvḍī) (maybe intended as प्यावड़ी (pyāvṛī)). But I can't find more about it in Hindi dictionaries. Exarchus (talk) 07:31, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

OK, I found पेवड़ी (pevṛī) in McGregor's dictionary and will add it to the page. Exarchus (talk) 07:41, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

• Thanks! P. Sovjunk (talk) 21:49, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Araújo

The surname Araújo or Araúxo derives from a castle in Galicia, near the Portuguese border, but no-one says what it means. My best guess is from arar (“to plough”), thus ploughland. Any better ideas? 24.108.0.44 01:48, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

gomp

Does the Norwegian term for muggles have anything to do with the Danaru word for arm? Perhaps the vikings got themselves stuck on the islands of Papua New Guinea and saw tribesmen using it and decided to use it as a insult to non magic people? 90.241.180.58 20:49, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Most unlikely. I read on a message board that it was an Old Norwegian word for nisse (gnome), but the user didn't provide a source. Otherwise, Norwegian has gom/ gomme (palate, gum), gump (bird's tail) and gamp (horse), so thee might have been some kind of conflation there. Wakuran (talk) 21:19, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

In Swedish and Nynorsk, I think "gump" can also mean the buttocks of a person. I believe it's a fairly colloquial word, similar to British/ Canadian bum or American fanny, but an allusion would still make sense for an insult. Wakuran (talk) 18:59, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

dreuzel

Where did the Dutch word for muggles come from? Im sure it's dreuze+el but apart from a surname I found dreuze isn't a real word 90.241.180.58 15:04, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Dutch apparently has the words treuzel (slowpoke) and dreutel (small child), it seems. (Although treuzelen seems more common as a verb than as a noun.) There might be a connection. Wakuran (talk) 15:45, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

It may be a completely made-up word, not based on any existing roots but only on connotations of similar words. Dutch dreutel (small child) has a synonym dreumel but can, moreover, also be used to refer to a clumsy person. Rhyming Dutch words with negative connotations are gebeuzel and geneuzel, both meaning “twaddle”, especially used for speech that demands one’s attention but is about irrelevant or insignificant things. BTW, we give an etymology for Muggle as being formed as mug +‎ -le, but AFAICT this stems from an editor’s imagination.  --Lambiam 18:38, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Albanian etymologies by Yazccaner

Contribs look like nationalist nonsense; I noticed them due to their edit to dhampir, a persistent target of 'everything-is-native' folk-etymologists, but it'd be good if someone with access to reliable etymological resources could take a look at the others... - -sche (discuss) 22:05, 16 October 2024 (UTC)

As I said in my block message, they've been removing sourced information put there by Albanian editors such as @FierakuiVërtet and @Catonif and claiming it was put there by "Serbian bot accounts". The first part might be justifiable, depending on the facts, but the second part shows either blatant dishonesty or serious delusion, neither of which are conducive to good edits. I'm sure the Albanians don't have any more idiots or nutcases than any other nationality, but they seem to have a higher proportion of such people who end up at Wiktionary, for whatever reason. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:15, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Tuchel

Does the German surname have any connection with Alemannic German large water pipe? It would be nice to have more info, what with Thomas Tuchel becoming England's men's team soccer manager. Let's say that if he wins England the World Cup, we'll add Tuchel as an English surname on en.wikt. If that's not incentive enough..... P. Sovjunk (talk) 07:55, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Tuchel is also the German name of Tuchola, a town formerly in Germany and now in Poland. Surnames from place names are very common, of course, but to settle the matter someone would have to do some pretty heavy research to determine whether the surname originated in West Prussia or in Uri (or somewhere else altogether). —Mahāgaja · talk 08:06, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

I would have guessed the German name might have been Tuch (cloth) with diminutive -el-ending. I'm not sure on where the Alemannic German might have come from, possibly some early borrowing of French tube, if I am to hazard a guess. Wakuran (talk) 13:00, 17 October 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps the Alemannic German Tuchel is connected to Middle High German tūchen (“to submerge”) (>German tauchen) ? Leasnam (talk) 03:17, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/þistilaz

RFV of the etymology. Kluge/Seebold. Etym WB der deutschen Sprache; 23. Auffl. 1995. page 185 — This unsigned comment was added by Janwo (talk • contribs) at 08:36, 18 October 2024 (UTC).

@Janwo: Evidently the IP before the IP adding the rfv-etym just copied it from the page for mistletoe *mistilaz, though there only, and in its there referenced source, the suffix was told to be identical and the IP transferred its knowledge on the eventual morphemes, which is not dumb as far as I can see, Irene Balles 1999 also accepted the same “to prick, to sting, root” with this suffix, though not evidently the middle morpheme “to sit”; the etymology wasn’t known in Kluge 1995. Fay Freak (talk) 20:23, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Reviewing the entry, a compound with zero-grade from *sed- (beside mistle note also parasit) is not convincing unless there is a cognate with the same root. S-mobile should be doubtful (see the statistical argument about cutting roots and related semantics by Viktor Lewizkij in Nowele 60 (2011)). Since **sd does not surface in syllable onset (Siebs' law, cp. parasit, sedere), it is not simply *teyg- plus s-prefix (pace Kluge).

Regarding the semantics compare thicket reconstructing a different vowel in *þekuz.

In other words, the mechanical reconstruction of PIE *(s)teyg- is indistinguishable from coincidence, thus PG *þistilaz is less than reliable. Attested only in Old Norse and West-Germanic, not Gothic, borrowing is possible from PWG where the vowels of *þistil and *þikkwī eventually agree (for the High German long vowel cf. diesig). Nevertheless, EWAhd agrees with Kluge.[5] Thick on the other hand appears to be chiefly Celtic—Germanic, cf. "Weitere sichere Anschlußmöglichkeiten fehlen." (EWAhd)[6] "eerder zou ik denken aan overname uit een substraattaal." (de Vries), "Gezien de geringe verspreiding gaat het wrsch. om een substraatwoord." (EWNl)[7]. That opens the door to speculation.

As for the color that we show in vivid pictures, the Finnic "thistle; bramble" and Proto-Finic "burdock", from Baltic (supra; Proto-Baltic *dagijas s.v. Proto-Finnic *takijas), should be of interest. 𐍅𐌹𐌲𐌰𐌳𐌴𐌹𐌽𐍉𐌼 (wigadeinōm, “thistle”) agrees very well with the Balto-Slavic evidence of *dyew- (“day; bright, shiny”), PB *deinas/*dinas, while *dagijas (above) reminds of the false cognate *dagaz—NB: ALEW: dãgas, "Außerbsl. wird häufig das germ. Wort für ‘Tag, helle Zeit des Tages’, got. dags, an. dagr, ae. dæg, ahd. tag sm. hier angeschlossen," q.v. also dagilis.[8].

So there's a beaten path. Moreover, Bramble includes "blackberry", Burdock resonates with bur (viz. purple) [citation needed], but I am not familiar with these words. Alisheva (talk) 20:28, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Oops, I deleted above: Finnic has loans in both cases, Finnish takiainen "thistle" derived from a Baltic word (Category:Proto-Baltic is etymology only short-hand) and tykky derived from Old Norse "thick". A presumably earlier loan appears in Proto-Samic, but Wikipedia is awfully quiet on its date. Alisheva (talk) 21:31, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

You're quite ... creative ... with consonant voicing. I'll leave it at that. As for burdock: anyone who has every encountered the plant in person is painfully aware that "bur" is the same as English bur, and in that time period purple was an astronomically expensive imported dye used in royal robes- not something people in the wilds of Northern Europe would use to name a common weed. In addition, bramble is from a name for shrubs, sharing its origin with broom. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:50, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/wīsōną

This page is presumably based on Vladimir Orel (2003) A Handbook of Germanic Etymology‎^[9], Leiden, Boston: Brill, →ISBN, page 468, which is uncredited. If the meaning of Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/wīsōną#Etymology_1 is really best glossed as "to visit" then the etymology should, I think, be from Latin vīsō (“to visit”). Otherwise, it should probably be merged with Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/wīsōną#Etymology_2 "to show, guide, direct". The meaning "to visit" could then be a loan translation semantic borrowing from Latin. Thoughts? —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 19:16, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

As both of them seem to have been derived from PIE *weyd-, could they be independent constructions? Wakuran (talk) 20:05, 18 October 2024 (UTC)

You mean it was derived twice from the same root with the same suffix? Is that possible? —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 18:47, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

I just figured it could be the same suffixes and general thinking behind it, but it was just a general hunch, anyway. Wakuran (talk) 11:35, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

Kildin Sami «ыгь»

I wanted to make the article for Kildin Sami ыгь (yg’) since I saw there was an article for ыгь кэ̄сск (yg’ kēssk), but couldn't find anything related to the etymology of the word. I found on a Sami to Russian dictionary that the word comes from ыгкь (ygk’), but wasn't fully sure if it was true. Anyone know if it's true or not? Aoscf77 (talk) 12:51, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Please don't create entries in languages you do not speak. This is most likely an inflected form. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 13:33, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, ygʹ would be the genitive of ygkʹ. --Tropylium (talk) 13:45, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Shalott (The Lady of)

The name has nothing to do with onions, it first turns up in an Italian Arthurian story, w:La Damigella di Scalot. She is elsewhere referred to as living in a tower, so the name is probably derived from Welsh ysgol (“ladder”) (etymology 2), alternate form ystol. -ot represents a diminutive, thus flight of steps. Some might think the name is purely Italian, but then it would be scaletta.

Thus, The Lady of the Staircase! 24.108.0.44 23:20, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Berna fly

Old word in Webster 1913. It might be connected to Portuguese berne? P. Sovjunk (talk) 13:03, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Iron Latch

Anyone know the origin of this placename? There's a landform called a letch which has sometimes been spelled and pronounced latch, so hypothetically it could be named for one of those... but while looking for the earliest uses of the name, there was interference from the fact that various things in Essex have iron latches which books found notable enough to mention, so it could just be that, or some other explanation. - -sche (discuss) 01:19, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Kiitricha (protist)

Kiitricha is the type genus of the family Kiitrichidae but I have not been able to clarify its etymology. Do you have any idea? Thanks in advance. Gerardgiraud (talk) 11:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

The -tricha part looks like the τριχ- (trikh-) that is the stem of θρίξ (thríx, “hair”), but the kii- part looks very un-Greek. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:11, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay for the suffix thríx, it's really the prefix kii that poses a (big) problem for me. Gerardgiraud (talk) 15:56, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

A bit of googling reveals that Kii is a Japanese surname (in addition to the place name we have listed). I found an article on E. coli coauthored by a Tsutomu Kii and an article about coral DNA coauthored by a Shin-Ichi Kii. So maybe the Kiitricha is named after a protistologist of the same name? Or maybe even the place name already mentioned in our entry?? —Mahāgaja · talk 16:28, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

The -trich- morpheme is contained in hypernyms of Kiitricha upto the rank of infraphylum. The protist apparently coexists with corals. The Kii peninsula has reefs. I'd bet on Kii referring to the place. DCDuring (talk) 17:05, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Thanks all. Gerardgiraud (talk) 18:10, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

Pookie

any idea of what the etymology of pookie is? 2001:1BA8:1616:C800:5CA6:3B39:F60D:AD67 16:51, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

I’ve no idea. It is possible that pookie and Pookie have different etymologies though, as the meanings are quite different. Overlordnat1 (talk) 05:43, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

@CanadianRosbif asked the same question in July; @Wakuran replied, “For pets, English already has the similar pooch/ poochie.” J3133 (talk) 05:52, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I found many hits on Google Books where men, women, cats and dogs are called ‘Pookie’, so that’s certainly possible. There’s also this interesting hit[10] which refers to someone called Pookie, back in the 70s, apparently because of his drug use (thus tying it in to pookie perhaps? Maybe a corruption of PCP?). The word seems to be used more by African Americans. The author Sherman L. Fowler was apparently given the nickname 'Pookie' from birth in 1943[11]. There's also two hits using 'pookie' to refer to a vagina([12] and [13]) and one hit claiming it's short for 'pussy cat'[14]. It's apparently also a term for a bushbaby originating in (what was) Rhodesia, a tank was named after it (see [15] and the various links at w:Pooky. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 07:49, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

For the pet name, maybe we could write "imitative", poochie, cookie and puppy feel somewhat similar. Wakuran (talk) 12:34, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

You mean that it might be an attempt to imitate the sound of a cute pet, or baby perhaps? Possibly so but that’s a different hypothesis to saying that it came from blending the words poochie, cookie and puppy together (none of which are themselves of imitative origin). Overlordnat1 (talk) 19:28, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

The first example. Wakuran (talk) 19:54, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

manuscript (Germanic)

The English etymology and various derived etymologies claim that this is a Germanic calque. I can't find such a claim in any of the standard etymological sources that I have access to. It seems that the univerbation "manuscriptum" is attested since circa 1000, so the Germanic words could actually be calques of the Latin. But the semantics are so obvious that there doesn't even have to be any close relation. Is there any source for this claim? 2.202.159.43 23:01, 21 October 2024 (UTC)

G note

A thousand dollar bill;"a grand" 68Mopar (talk) 04:57, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

We have this at G-note, I've just added the etymology there. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 05:42, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

ґарадича

Pannonian Rusyn word for "stair", i.e. stairs is ґарадичи (garadiči). First instinct is to connect it with парадича (paradiča, “tomato”), but I have no idea how these two could connect. And I couldn't find any Hungarian *garadicsom either. Maybe somehow related to Latin gradus? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 07:54, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

This doesn’t answer your question, but it seems like the word also exists in many Slovak dialects: [16]. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 00:38, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Borrowed from Hungarian grádics／garádics. Vahag (talk) 14:33, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

And I'm guessing this Hungarian word comes from Latin gradus somehow? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 14:36, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

German Dose (moor)

Any idea what the source of Dose, Döse (“moor”) is, or Dobbe? (Old books variously mention Dobbe as a synonym or suggest that one or both words instead mean "bog pond" and/or a particular peat layer.) Several old books suggest the name relates to the moors' light-coloured peat, but if there is a link (does dösig locally mean light-coloured?) it is currently escaping me. - -sche (discuss) 03:11, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Dobbe appears it may come from Middle Low German dobbe (“ditch, depression, swamp, low marshy land with overgrown surface”), related to Middle Dutch dobbe (“pit, quarry, water basin”) (modern Dutch dobbe), West Frisian dobbe (“ditch, pit”). Perhaps from Proto-West Germanic *dobbā related to Proto-Germanic *dumpa- (whence English dimple), ultimately from Proto-Indo-European *dʰewb- (“deep, hollow”). Leasnam (talk) 04:36, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

I have heard "Dose" once in a compound, cf. "preußische Sanddose", "märkische Sanddose", "Märkische Streusandbüchse", refering to the arid soil. Dose can mean box, hence I remember it inevitably as Sandkasten. I doubt that this is correct, because you would not be asking if δόσις (dósis) derives such a sense. Although it would make sense if Dose "can" derived from dosis "a measured portion" while drug at the same time is related to dry, pill refered in a similar way to mortar, which shows a wide range of semantic drift. On second thought, it may be related to *dūnā, sand dune, see below about diesig. Alisheva (talk) 07:19, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Aha, thank you! - -sche (discuss) 21:55, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

OK, I found that Fritz Overbeck's 1975 Botanisch-geologische Moorkunde unter besonderer Berücksichtigung der Moore Nordwestdeutschlands als Quellen zur Vegetations-, Klima- und Siedlungsgeschichte, page 49, says "7. Dose, nach MENSING (Schleswig-Holsteinisches Wörterbuch) und C. A. WEBER (1900) die alte niedersächsische Bezeichnung für das Hochmoor (z. B. „Esterweger Dose“, [...]). Lebendiger erhalten soll das Wort in der Ableitung „dösig“ sein, dem Adjektiv für einen wenig ergiebigen, schwerfälligen Menschen; auch die Bezeichnung „Torfkopf“ ist für einen solchen Menschen gebräuchlich." (However, I can't say I am convinced of the connection to dösig, since it has such a solid, and non-moor-related, etymology already.)

The Schleswig-Holsteinisches Wörterbuch Overbeck cites in turn says: "Dose, Dös (s. d.) „hellfarbige Moosschicht auf Torfmooren“, als selbständiges Wort in Schl.H. nicht mehr bekannt (erhalten im Ostfriesischen; vgl. nhd. „Dost“, Origanum vulgare L.), nur noch in Ortsnamen fortlebend: Dosen-bȩk Dorf im Gut Bothkamp; Nebenfluß der Schwale bei Groß-Harrie (Neum.), —moor Moor östl. vom Einfelder See (Bordesh.), [...]" and "Dös ² (dös) f. „Niederung“, „Wiese“, „Moor“; vgl. mnd. dose „hellfarbiger Moostorf“. enige Holtbüten un Torfmoor in'e D—en Dtm. 1850; nur bei Groth 3, 104 u. 2, 46 bezeugt. Vgl. Dose S. 778."

It would still be interesting to know the etymology or cognates of the Middle Low German word.

- -sche (discuss) 21:55, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

Dutch dijzig

On a separate note, Distel would be standard but it certainly does not rhyme with distillery for me. Long 'ie' is easily found, not easily quoted. Hence I pointed out diesig.

We link it to dijzig (RfE). DWDS and Etymologiebank agree tentatively about PIE *tem(ǝ)-, though Philippa is missing. This I thought would be enough as far as the parallel to *(s)teyg- respectively *(s)teg-. We on the other hand have it already as cognate to dizzy (West Frisian dize (“fog”)), but from *dʰewh₂-.

With regards to Dose (@-sche) and my comparison with dune, see also Dunst, aufgedunsen (soggy?), or dösen (“doze, slumber”). Dösig does refer to dizzy, after all. Alisheva (talk) 07:39, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

No idea what you're trying to say. —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 16:12, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Why sure you do. dijzig is labeled RfE, we disagree with sources and I set up a discussion with topical references. This is to guard my previous comment on the same root, this in response to my previous comments about thistle concerned about vowel length and consonant voicing. Ulterior motives were lost to my browser deciding to reload the page at random, a hazy hazard I should have reckoned with. Words can't express ... Alisheva (talk) 20:20, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Japanese 梨 (nashi)

the etymology section cites the notoriously unreliable/generally bad website 語源由来辞典 (Gogen Yurai Jiten), which has so many unsourced hypotheses for that specific word that I'm starting to think everything there is just speculation. I feel like we should just remove the etymology, and I was going to do that, but I decided to ask here first to see if someone had a more reliable source, like a Proto-Japonic reconstruction or a Ryukyuan cognate or a more reliable etymology than just speculation from GYJ. so, if anyone has that, please weigh in, otherwise I'm just going to remove the etymology, I think. Mati, with a t (talk) 23:59, 24 October 2024 (UTC)

okay, I removed the dubious etymology from the entry. if anyone for some reason wants to add another more credible source for the etymology, please do — I wasn't able to find anything other than random sites that I wouldn't personally believe with theories like that. Mati, with a t (talk) 02:37, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Makuria

Back to Nubia! w:Makuria was a Nubian kingdom which lasted many centuries. I have ransacked my Old Nubian Dictionary for a suggestive word, without luck. But Coptic, which was a prestige language in Nubia, has Coptic ⲙⲁⲕⲁⲣⲓⲟⲥ (makarios, “blessed”), borrowed from Ancient Greek μακάριος (makários). w:Makuria tells us that the native name was ⲇⲱⲧⲁⲩⲟ (dōtauo), so Makuria was a borrowed "prestige" name. And what more natural than that the kings and priests should call their "blessed" country by a "blessed" language. Thoughts, anyone? 24.108.0.44 01:13, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the name ⲇⲱⲧⲁⲩⲟ, the Old Nubian Dictionary tells us that ⲇⲱⲩⲧ- translates κοσμήσᾱς ordered, arranged, adorned, of which ⲙⲁⲕⲁⲣⲓⲟⲥ, blessed, might be a loose translation. So this might be another support for the interpretation. 24.108.0.44 03:51, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

That raises the question of why a deliberate prestigous borrowing would have /u/ instead of /a/.

That there doesn’t exist a Nubian word (at least not in that source) which resembles “Makuria” doesn’t mean the toponym is non-local in origin. The names of most French cities aren’t a good fit for any individual French word either. Nicodene (talk) 12:11, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

The fact that a native name ⲇⲱⲧⲁⲩⲟ exists beside the better-known one implies borrowing, just as the name Australia is in Latin. As to the u, that could be part of converting the adjective into a proper noun. 24.108.0.44 20:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

That doesn’t follow. Makuria can simply be based on some other Nubian toponym or ethnonym.

/a/ > /u/ resulting from the conversion of an adjective into a noun, proper or otherwise, is not found in Ancient Greek. Nicodene (talk) 07:34, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Claude Rilly and Alex de Voogt (2012, The Meroitic Language and Writing System) consider it natively inherited: The ancient Nubians identified themselves differently in their own language, perhaps *Mag-ur ~ *Mag-i, if one trusts the names of Makuria (Kingdom of Dongola); [...] (Rilly & de Voogt 2012:104). 185.238.219.3 15:23, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Wow, this is interesting, could you post the whole paragraph? 24.108.0.44 03:31, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

You should familiarize yourself with the literature if this is your thing. I can say that it is based on comparisons in three more languages, but I have not read the whole thing and cannot tell what it means in this framework. I will say that it does either intentionally or by oversight not include Mogoreeb, the name of a dialect and a corresponding tribe in the Nara language branch (p. 78). 62.214.191.67 18:38, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

-arnia / -арня productivity

I just made the entry for Pannonian Rusyn -арня (-arnja), and I'm coming up to an issue about its productivity. Fact is, there aren't a whole lot of Pannonian Rusyn words for which the -ар (-ar) form doesn't exist, but that the -арня (-arnja) form does. Combing through the whole 2010 Rusyn-Serbian dictionary, the only one I could reasonably find was машинарня (mašinarnja), and even that's iffy because there's also the synonym машинарнїца (mašinarnjica), and -арнїца (-arnjica) isn't really a thing. The -р- (-r-) in the middle might even just be there to fill the gap between машина (mašina) and -ня (-nja).

Yet, the 1997 Serbian-Rusyn dictionary does in fact treat it as a suffix separate to -ар (-ar) and -ня (-nja), perhaps due to the productivity of unrelated Serbo-Croatian -ара／-ara. So my question is, does an -арня (-arnja) word need to not have an -ар (-ar) form in order to considered a separate formation? Are there for example any Polish words which do have an -arz form, but also have a separate -arnia form that which is considered as actually suffixed with -arnia rather than just -arz + -nia? Does it perhaps depend on the exact semantics? Insaneguy1083 (talk) 06:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

A cursory search has yielded me Polish owczarz and owczarnia, which are apparently considered separate at least on here. Don't mind me, I'm just thinking out loud with this one, but feel free to chime in with your thoughts. Insaneguy1083 (talk) 06:32, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Czech "důstojník" - etymology

hi there, I can't seem to find the exact etymology for the word "důstojník", could anybody please help me out with this one? I can't really tell if it's just a blend of "důstojný + -ník" and even then I'm rather looking for its more exact roots. It would be very much appreciated, thank you! Tabberib (talk) 21:07, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Cognate to Polish dostojnik at any rate. If one of them is borrowed or if they're both parallel internal development is another question. Vininn126 (talk) 21:09, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Slavic/višьňa

Hi. My question is about changing the etymology.

1) Is it obvious that this Proto-Slavic form cannot be inherited from this Proto-Balto-Slavic form? It seems that this is evident from *aśís > *ȍsь, *déśimtis > *dȅsętь (*weiśinjāˀ > **visьňa, not *višьňa). If the Proto-Indo-European form is correct, then, in my opinion, it would be necessary to inherit the form from *veiśjāˀ [iotation] > *viša > Pskov dial. ви́ша (víša), Nikolaev 1986: 125. Although it can be noted that Nikolaev reconstructs how *vixja [first regressive palatalization] > *viša. According to Anikin 2013: 283, there is a masculine form виш (viš) in dialects, which, as he writes, can be a reverse derivation (< вишня), but does not exclude a non-prefix formation (*višь < [iotation] *veiśjas — my comment, since he means the suffix *-ьňa). Zaliznyak 2004: 266 also proposes the reconstruction *višňa, without ь, although he writes that it may be a misprint in the Old Novgorodian, however, the misprint is in a strong position ь.

2) Accentologically, Zaliznyak does not cite a paradigm, for Nikolaev it is paradigm b, although in the first form he has a typo of tone (which would speak of paradigm a), and in subsequent forms the typos are corrected manually with a pencil. It is quite possible to consider the same action as in wordform such as *vòľa > во́ля (vólja), but *ženà > жена́ (žená).

Are there any other thoughts on this? @Thadh:, @AshFox: - ɶLerman (talk) 17:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

jūra

Latvian: RFV and cleanup of almost the whole etymology, though there is one source cited. Like many Latvian and Lithuanian etymologies on the wiki, it is needlessly long and complex, sloppy, and full of improper notation. More importantly, it overlays several mutually exclusive etymologies without organizing them or explaining which if any are most likely, and it is unclear what the reasons to reconstruct any of the PIE or Proto-Baltic forms are—just a confusing, self-contradictory mess that combines old and new ideas. Same issue at Jūrmala § Norwegian Bokmål, which copied the etymologies from jūra and mala but does not source them. — 2600:4808:9C31:4800:5492:574D:9227:5762 20:50, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

mala

Latvian: RFV of the etymology, particularly the PIE reconstruction. Repeated at Jūrmala § Norwegian Bokmål. — 2600:4808:9C31:4800:5492:574D:9227:5762 21:02, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

tinca

Latin. Etymology is sourced but highly suspect. Neither of the sources are reliable for PIE etymology, both copying from old works like Pokorny without a critical eye, and from a quick glance I can tell this case is no exception. *teh₂- (“to melt, trickle”) seems neither semantically nor phonetically a good match. I doubt there is a better etymology out there, but the entry should reflect that state of things. — 2600:4808:9C31:4800:5492:574D:9227:5762 22:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Colluvium

Colluvium is used in geology and comes from collis, hill, and luvium, sediments or what washed there. Therefore, colluvium are sediments that came from uphill at the time of deposition. These sediments (usually? form a jumble of sizes contrary to alluvium that is sorted-the smaller pieces a carried further by the river… 2605:A601:AE5A:7F00:D89A:5714:A36D:C7B9 14:15, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

The col- is from the Latin prefix con- (“together”), not from collis (“hill”). —Mahāgaja · talk 18:13, 29 October 2024 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-West Germanic/falskī, German falsch, etc.

Pointing out that this isn't commonly reconstructed for Proto-West Germanic. The -sch in German is said to be influenced by Middle Dutch valsch, where the -sch is said to be analogical. Exarchus (talk) 10:33, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

This is absolute nonsense and should be deleted immediately. The word is not attested anywhere before the 12th century. The verb in German "fälschen" is older and may well be PWG, but the adjective clearly isn't. We can even in see how it spread from Dutch and West Central German eastward (namely through Veldeke, cf. Pfeifer). Generally speaking there are lots of dubious PWG entries that should be deleted. 2.207.102.112 03:55, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't disagree. Which other PWG entries do you think are dubious? Exarchus (talk) 08:46, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

"Ratta" tribes in Maharashtra/महाराष्ट्र

The origin of the the component राष्ट्र in the name महाराष्ट्र is attributed to a tribe called राष्ट्रिक; which later became राष्ट्रकूट; with an original form of Ratta. Such that:

(Unknown origin) Ratta > Sanskritized to राष्ट्र > MIA raṭṭa, raṭṭha etc.

But the origin of the word Ratta is still not known. I think it's a descendant of Hraštás. I have three reasons to posit this:

1. The semantic overlap between the concept of "right(side)" and "south" is well known in PIE, particularly in PIA. The Rattas were an extreme southern tribe in terms of all other Aryan tribes. It makes sense that they may identify as "South(erners)" as well. Other names for the same tribes are laṭṭa, laṭhika etc.
2. The connection in literature with the terms रथ​, रथी, महारथी since they're basically titles and not tribe names, the lack of retroflexion also makes them much less likely as the origin.
3. The word did exist in Proto-Indo-Iranian but has not left a descendant in the Indo-Aryan side. I think this is actually the reason why we've ended up with the sanskritization of Ratta as "Rashtra". People in the early first millenium in India had no idea where it came from and since the word did not leave any known descendants in Sanskrit, everyone jumped to "Rashtra" as the origin of the word.

I also know that the word may possibly be Dravidian; but I did not find any precedence for my hypothesis in the literature and it fits very well.

I don't know if this is the right place to put this, what do you guys think? Varca mumbaikar (talk) 18:56, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

The third point is confusing. Proto-Indo-Iranian *Hraštás has no Vedic descendant and "Ratta" has no Sanskrit etymology, native speakers naturally etymologized the name with "Rashtra", therefore a reflex of *Hraštás must be assumed. This does not explain Ratta and variants, which would be the actual question. Since Proto-Dravidian Proto-Dravidian *mic- may be rendered in Akkadian Meluḫḫa, and we know h from Sindh as well as Sinitic from /c/ it would seem that महा (mahā) only confirms the assumption of a healthy dose of folkmonomology! Sachthepupil (talk) 22:55, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

@Sachthepupil Thanks for the reply! The third point is more of a supplement from my side to suggest that if *Hraštás had survived, we'd be calling it **महारष्ट or something similar today. Since it did not survive, राष्ट्र became the go-to sanskritized version.

Coming to the second question, a descendant of *Hraštás does explain Ratta and it's variants... to at least a higher extent than राष्ट्र.

1. *Hraštás > **रष्ट > रट्ठ​, रठ (self-explanatory)
2. **रष्ट > **लष्ट (r ~ l are frequently conflated in IA languages) > लट्ट​, लट्ठ, लठिक

Those are all the variants I believe must be explained. Your point about Dravidian *mic is a valid etymon for the "Maha" component, not for "Ratta", which we know were defintely separate components. There is another theory with *mic as the base, as "Marahaṭṭha" is also a later attested MIA name for the region. Normally, it is explained by maharaṭṭha > (metathesis) marahaṭṭha, but it can also explained as *mēluVkku > *malaha-ṭṭha (pleonastic) > marahaṭṭha, but it is too far-fetched for me, and against current concensus that "Ratta" is a name in itself and the "maha" component was added later.

If you're unsure about the validity of ष्ट > ṭṭ, this sound change is seen with इष्टका > iṭṭā, and is apparently more common with Southern IA languages with Old Marathi सेटि (<सेट्टि< श्रेष्ठिन्). Varca mumbaikar (talk) 23:58, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

November 2024

Ⱀ

Origin? 84.70.45.226 16:44, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Under the heading Origin proposals, Wikipedia's article Glagolitic script has "Possibly minuscule Greek nu ν^[60]".  --Lambiam 08:58, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Protocruzia

Protocruzia (protist) is the type genus of the family Protocruziidae. The prefix proto is clear but the suffix cruzia is mysterious. Any ideas? Gerardgiraud (talk) 19:40, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

It was dedicated to the memory of w:Oswaldo Cruz: "Genero dedicada á memoria de Oswaldo Cruz" (published in the journal "Memórias do Instituto Oswaldo Cruz"). Compare Cruzella. Urszag (talk) 21:07, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks a lot @Urszag. Gerardgiraud (talk) 07:55, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

Portuguese engendrar

This word is said to be inherited from Latin ingenerāre. However, wouldn’t the inherited form in Portuguese be something like *engerar (vide gerar). It seems to me that this word was borrowed or influenced by French engendrer. Is there any other word with the -enerare → -endrar development native to Portuguese? OweOwnAwe (talk) 16:09, 2 November 2024 (UTC)

bayhead

Why is this term applied to baygall swamps? I understand the other sense, where bay = body of water, gulf (speaking of the head of a bay makes as much sense as speaking of the head of a river)... Is the swamp sense of bayhead suggesting that baygall swamps are "bay-laurel-y headwaters" of the streams they're near? - -sche (discuss) 05:34, 3 November 2024 (UTC)

buy it + buy the farm

The Online Etym. Dictionary at "farm" says that the phrase "buy it" (1825) is significantly older than "buy the farm" (mid-20th c.). So the claim of an ellipsis at "buy it" is in all likelihood mistaken. I also think, though this may be wrong, that "buy it" is common in Britain while "buy the farm" is not.
There's also further information in the linked entry that might be used to improve the etymology at "buy the farm" (for example, it could be a blend of "buy it" and "fetch the farm" also mentioned there). Is the military-aircraft-crash thing really a "long-held hypothesis" or just a folk etymology? 2.207.102.112 04:15, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

冷たい

Why is its etymology "Compound of 爪 (tsume, “claw”) +‎ 痛い (itai, “painful”)"? I don't understand the connection between claw, painful and "cold". Duchuyfootball (talk) 13:53, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

A biting cold? Hokkaido can be fairly cold during winter time. Wakuran (talk) 23:25, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. It's interesting. My language does not have the concept of relating coldness to physical injuries (biting, claw etc.) like that. Duchuyfootball (talk) 23:45, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

Ⰰ

I doubt this letter looks like the sign of the cross, also by the time the Glagolitic script was invented the Phoenician alphabet had been absolete for over 500 years so it couldn't come from 'alep too. 84.70.45.226 21:30, 4 November 2024 (UTC)

I changed the text back to a previous version (with Hebrew alef), which is also what the source gives. Exarchus (talk) 11:44, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

To clarify, are you saying the source Diwodh₃rós provided didn't give the Phoenician etymology which Diwodh₃rós cited it as supporting (and instead, it supports the Hebrew etymology)? Misrepresenting sources would (as discussed recently in relation to another user, who I see has even criticized Diwodh₃rós for something similar) be a concerning issue. - -sche (discuss) 02:15, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

nauf

Origin? What is its normal German cognate? 84.70.45.226 21:06, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

It's from hinauf. —Mahāgaja · talk 21:46, 5 November 2024 (UTC)

Strong disagree. nei can be derived from in or nieder, no need to go through hin. The rest is analogy.

Is there any evidence of contracted hn respectively hr for raus etc.? Is this a case of the front fell off (after Clarke and Dawe)? Howydo (talk) 10:11, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't know why you'd expect to see forms where the [h] is retained but the intervening vowel lost. I'd expect either both were lost at the same time, or the [h] first.--Urszag (talk) 02:22, 7 November 2024 (UTC)

German: Lah, Lage

Currently listed as descendants at Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/lauhaz and Reconstruction:Proto-West_Germanic/lauh, a lexeme that is supposed to be derived from Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/lewk-. I'm not familiar with sound changes that would turn "au" into "a" in this position, or "h" into "g", whereas the evolution of lauh > Loh is unproblematic. Do Loh, Lah and Lage really all belong to the same root? The etymology section of the latter says that it is instead a derivative of the unrelated root Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/legʰ-. Urszag (talk) 13:20, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

It might presumably be two different Lages. The standard Lage looks similar to the Swedish läge (position). Wakuran (talk) 14:10, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Celtic/ruskos

Absolutely zero descendants point to a short *u; the co-occurrence of Old Irish ú with Welsh i and Romance u all point to a long *ū, and the u in Breton/Cornish cannot reflect a short inherited *u (Brittonic vowels spelled u only reflects *ou and oi; old *u became o(u)). The entry name should be reverted to *rūskos to at least be compatible with most of the descendants (but we need an admin to do this). — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:47, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I agree for Irish and British. What do the Romance descendants tell us, if anything? Why does an admin need to do the moving? —Caoimhin ceallach (talk) 20:43, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

An admin needs to do the move because it involves deleting a redirect. I'm not 100% certain, but I believe the fact that the Romance descendants of Latin rusca all have u and not o indicates that the Latin was actually Latin rūsca. —Mahāgaja · talk 20:56, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

You have correctly captured my thought process with regards to the Romance terms. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 21:53, 6 November 2024 (UTC)

I made the move, but I haven't added macrons to the Latin terms. Someone else can do that if they feel confident. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:11, 7 November 2024 (UTC)