User talk:Nigej

weather

The previous Masters pages included a weather section for each day of the tournament. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Masters_Tournament#Weather Johnsmith2116 (talk) 13:19, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

That one did but most don't have it. Not sure why it can't be added to the daily summaries, if there's anything interesting to say Nigej (talk) 13:26, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Template:Baltic Pipeline System-II full/doc

Template:Baltic Pipeline System-II full/doc has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:13, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Jack Newton

On 21 April 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Jack Newton, which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Spencer^T•C 03:38, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Olympic database

Regarding this edit: did you mean to say "However it has not given me any confidence..."? isaacl (talk) 20:29, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

succession boxes

I was wondering your reason for removing the succession boxes from the 4 golf majors? Thank you Tomrtn (talk) 22:57, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

See WT:GOLF#Succession boxes in major championships. As noted there, the auto-expanded navbox seems to me a better way forward. Nigej (talk) 05:18, 14 May 2022 (UTC)

Cup events

As you've probably seen, I recently created a page for Vic Bennetts. He won a number of "cup" events during his amateur career. Some examples are here and here. I wasn't sure whether they are worthy of inclusion in the "Amateur Wins" section. I'll definitely keep them in the prose but I'm not sure if they meet our standards otherwise. They may be along the level of schoolboys championships. If you have the time, please briefly let me know your thoughts.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 07:39, 8 June 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

I don't know anything about these events, but my general view would be that 1 round event shouldn't be included. All pros won large numbers of amateur events in their early careers and our list of wins needs to concentrate on the most important. Nigej (talk) 05:16, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Ok thanks. I have deleted them from the Amateur wins sections.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 22:03, 9 June 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Australian Men's Interstate Teams Matches

I am almost done harassing you about Vic Bennetts. On your Australian Men's Interstate Teams Matches page, under the Appearances section, I noticed that you only have Bennetts playing in the matches from 1963 to 1966. However, I have links stating he participated in the 1962 and 1967 events. In 1962 article, it says he was selected for the "junior" team. Perhaps that is a different category? For the 1967 article, however, it says he was selected for the "senior" team - not sure what was going on with that but maybe he just selected to drop out later on? Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks, Oogglywoogly (talk) 15:14, 11 June 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

I think the 1962 event would be the boys event. https://assets.ctfassets.net/3urhge2ecl20/46s701KhgITgu4OPKI8rgE/8ab9a75f9b49d2f62f29df88592aab1d/HONOUR_ROLL_-_Australian_Junior_Interstate_Teams_Matches.pdf which seems to have started in 1958, but I don't know any details about this event. The 1967 mens interstate matches were held in September. The matches referred to in your link (in February) were, it seems, junior v senior practice matches and he wasn't selected for the interstate event: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/103562150/the-sydney-morning-herald/ Nigej (talk) 15:36, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

For Junior interstate see: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=D35WAAAAIBAJ&pg=3815%2C6027652 for 1962. Played in 1961 too: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=NFoVAAAAIBAJ&pg=4672%2C935897 but not in 1960 https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=V31WAAAAIBAJ&pg=6543%2C5996230 Also played in the junior event in 1963: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CYcTAAAAIBAJ&pg=4771%2C2146592 and 1964 https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3fpjAAAAIBAJ&pg=1319%2C9130691 and 1965 https://www.newspapers.com/clip/103568041/the-sydney-morning-herald/ Nigej (talk) 17:21, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your hard work. I have added all of the relevant information to his Team Appearances section. I noticed that there is a large overlap between his participation in the junior and senior events - just wondering but do you know why? I assumed they'd be mutually exclusive categories.

I have also noted all of the team events he appeared in the Team Appearances section. I think this may be too promiscuous, however, as a number of these events seem quite small. (The senior interstate tournament is the only one I heard of before I started his page.) For the Amateur wins and Professional wins categories we have have decided not all victories are worthy of inclusion (i.e. pro-am wins, schoolboy championships). Likewise, do we have criteria established to determine whether certain team events are notable enough?

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:35, 12 June 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

The junior level in Australia in his day was under-21, later changed to under-18. It did mean that useful juniors could play in both. Didn't seem to be anything to stop it. Similar thing happened in the UK. There used to be a "youth" level, under-23, but at some point all the top amateurs were youths, so The R&A abandoned the "youth" level to concentrate on the boys age group (roughly under-18). Makes more sense nowadays. Nigej (talk) 19:49, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification about the amateur categories. More importantly, do you known anything about notability criteria for the Team Appearances section?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 23:02, 12 June 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Not sure there's any rules about the Team Appearances section. I guess anything that got significant coverage could be added but, personally, I wouldn't add minor amateur events. Nigej (talk) 06:06, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

1963 Australian Cup

One last thing about Bennetts. I have this link where he and his partner tied for the lead at the Australian Cup at the end of regulation. In the link they say the teams were going to play an 18 hole playoff the next week on December 22. I have scoured the newspaper search engines and found nothing. In addition, I checked the December 23 edition of the Sydney Morning Herald on Google News Archive and found no reportage of this event. (I also checked the Age and found nothing.) Not sure if you know anything of this alleged playoff.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 18:19, 24 June 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Like you, I can't find any record of the playoff. Nigej (talk) 05:02, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Ok thanks.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 15:57, 27 June 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Northern Professional

Hi there. FYI, I've been sandboxing the results and clipped many sources. See User:Wjemather/British PGA circuit#Northern Professional Championship. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 16:52, 28 June 2022 (UTC) .

Yes, needs sorting out. Not always clear which events were Leeds Cup too. See: https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FEJVy7udW4AE8LC-.jpg which has the honours board for the Leeds Cup. Some years missing 1950s to 1970s but I'm not 100% convinced that these weren't held. Nigej (talk) 18:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

@Wjemather: I'm still not 100% clear about the 1963 and 1964 Leeds Cup situation. The honours board has 1963 missing and Caygill winning it 1964. Most plausibly this was his win (which you found before) in the "new 36-hole tournament" at Manchester Golf Club (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/104690366/the-guardian/) which Caygill did win (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/104630292/the-guardian/). This was a new venture (involving some amateurs) and ran from 1964 to 1969 and sources are clear that from 1965 onwards the winner did receive the Leeds Cup. We also know from this https://www.newspapers.com/clip/104688724/the-guardian/ that when the 1965 event was held Caygill was "the holder of the Leeds Cup", although annoyingly it doesn't actually say that he won it for his 1964 win in the same event. Confusingly this: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/104636864/the-guardian/ from 1970 says that Muscroft "had previously won the trophy in 1962 and 1964", a statement that's difficult to square with what I've said above, and presumably relates to his NPC win in 1964. How Muscroft could have won the Leeds Cup in 1964 but Caygill be "the holder of the Leeds Cup" when it was contested in 1965 isn't clear. Nigej (talk) 14:04, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I came across this which suggests the 1963 NPC (Caygill won) carried the Leeds Cup, but nothing to substantiate that. I'll look again when I have a bit of time. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 14:50, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

As for the NPC, I just have a couple of gaps to fill: 1977, 1983 and 1984 _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 14:53, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Shennecossett Golf Course

I have spent the past few days adding a lot of information to the Shennecossett Golf Course page. I have noticed that the newspapers often refer to "Shennecossett Country Club" in my research rather than "Shennecossett Golf Course." They are probably referring to the same place and are simply making a little mistake. However, I wanted to consult with you before making more edits.

My misgivings basically revolve around the Connecticut Open (1910s event). (As full disclosure, I created that page.) In the course of my research for Shennecossett I noticed no mention of this early century Connecticut Open. For example, on the club's website, despite a comprehensive history section, there is nothing. In addition, in my research for the 1910s Connecticut Open they usually refer to "Shennecossett Country Club." Basically, I'm not sure if Shennecossett Golf Course and Shennecossett Country Club are different clubs. Any help would be much appreciated.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 01:57, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

They do seem to be the same club, as far as I can see. I suspect that it was called a country club until being taken over by the town. One of the scorecards here https://www.groton-ct.gov/departments/parksrec/shenny/historical_scorecard_gallery.php/#prettyPhoto says country club and has the title "circa late 1960s". Nigej (talk) 06:55, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I seem to have overlooked the scorecard section earlier. Clearly the same club.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:33, 26 July 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Nomination of List of Great Britain and Ireland PGA Cup golfers for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article List of Great Britain and Ireland PGA Cup golfers is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Great Britain and Ireland PGA Cup golfers until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 02:55, 22 July 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Ted Webber

A Rhodesian golfer named Ted Webber won the South African Amateur Championship (golf) in 1977 and 1978. I suspect this is the same person as Teddy Webber who finished runner-up at the 1986 South African PGA Championship. If so we should keep the names consistent and probably the flags. Do you know if this is the same guy?

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 04:07, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Must be the same person.Teddy seems much more common, eg https://www.europeantour.com/players/teddy-webber-987/career-record?tour=dpworld-tour Played for Rhodesia as an amateur and seems to have genuinely been from there. Despite the flag on the ET website he competed as a Zimbabwean from 1986 to 1988. Not sure why he's got a South African flag. Probably all mixed up with the politics of the time. In the apartheid days it was sometimes easier to be a Rhodesian/Zimbabwean (but sometimes not) but later sometimes it became easier to be a South African. "Majors of Golf" has "Edward Arthur Webber" (played in the Open 1986, 1987, 1988, missed cut each time) as his full name which fits with http://rhodesiansportprofiles.blogspot.com/2012/11/edward-arthur-webber.html Nigej (talk) 05:50, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

See also http://teddywebber.com/ which says he won 4 times in South Africa. Nigej (talk) 06:45, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. Yeah it's definitely the same guy. And thank you for changing the flags on the tournament pages.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:11, 28 July 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

question about flags of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe

For Mark McNulty's win at the 1980 Malaysian Open there is this blue-ish flag with a the Union Jack in the corner. This flag also exist on the 1980 Asia Golf Circuit page. This appears to be similar to Rhodesia's national flag from 1964-68 (see Flags of Rhodesia). But clearly the dates don't match. (Meanwhile, under Flags of Zimbabwe they note the 1960s Rhodesian flag on the page but that's it.) I think it should probably change.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:23, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I would think common sense would indicate that we use the flag of Zimbabwe here, enough though it only became Zimbabwe in April 1980. Using the Union Jack, per List of Rhodesian flags is surely just confusing. Nigej (talk) 12:56, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

If we are going to use the flag of the time, surely the UK one is correct (or possibly Zimbabwe Rhodesia, as that continued to be used unofficially), not that of Zimbabwe (or Rhodesia). I have updated it in the articles accordingly (i.e. UK). Any confusion is due to our use of flagicons without text, which has been touched on many times, but never addressed properly. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 15:03, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the Zimbabwe Rhodesia flag would be a possible option. Nigej (talk) 15:07, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Question about sections

I have some questions about the sections we use in the text. Firstly, I have a question about the Early life section. Before I used to include very early life stuff like where the golfer was born, family info, and some very early golf anecdotes. But lately I've been enfolding all high school stuff under Early life rather than including it under the Amateur career section. I usually begin the Amateur career section when the subject goes to college (or around the age of 18 if he doesn't). What are your thoughts?

In addition, I am almost done with the page of Jerry Stolhand and have some questions about how I should organize the page. Stolhand had an unusual career arc where he turned professional, then had his amateur career status re-instated, but then turned professional a second time. I've heard of a number of golfers that have regained their amateur status but none where the golfer turned pro again. I created an independent section for each era of Stolhand's career but wasn't sure if that was the way it should be done. Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:25, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't think we need to be too worried about the sections, it will be different for each biography. See Help:Section but I'm not sure its much help. Allen John comes to mind as someone who's turned professional twice, but it is unusual. Nigej (talk) 08:21, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

Ok thanks. I will check the Help section when I have the opportunity to. Also, I actually just noticed that John Harris (golfer) and Joe Stansberry also had their professional status renewed. Maybe it's not as unusual as we think.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 15:44, 9 September 2022 (UTC)Oogglywooggly

I just went through the advice page you sent me pertaining to Sections. Thank you but likewise I didn't find it very helpful; it seemed to focus mainly on technical stuff, not content. I think I'll just keep Stolhand's page organized the way it is.

One last thing... Could we create a separate line on the infobox for those that regained amateur status? On the page of Allen John we have it noted but it's on the same line as "Turned professional." To me, it looks awkward and jumbled. In addition, for the rare player that turned pro a second time, it would be nice to have a separate line for that too.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 15:44, 14 September 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Could be done. I'll have a think about it Nigej (talk) 16:22, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

Ok, please think about it. I think it would be worthwhile and probably easy to do as relatively few guys have had their amateur status re-instated.

Just to put it out there I will list all of the guys I know who have had their amateur status re-instated. They are Nathaniel Crosby, Sandy Galbraith, Steve Melnyk, Dillard Pruitt, and Bob Lewis (golfer). In addition, the professional golfers John Harris (golfer), Joe Stansberry, David Eger, Allen John, and Jerry Stolhand all had their amateur status re-instated but then turned pro a second time.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:38, 15 September 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Bobby Jones' professional career

Hey,

You have mentioned in passing that Bobby Jones turned pro sometime in his career. On his infobox, however, it is not noted. I have scoured the internet for this information but all I have is this website which says he turned pro sometime in the early 1930s. Do you have any more evidence stating when he turned pro? I think this is important as all you hear is the media is "the lifelong amateur Bobby Jones," "the greatest golfer never to turn pro," etc. but never anything about his professional career.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:56, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Seems that even at the time of his retirement in November 1930 he regarded his proposed future actions (like making a film) as against his amateur status: https://www.newspapers.com/image/legacy/436712859/ See eg https://www.newspapers.com/image/legacy/398103434/ when Lawson Little turned professional in 1936.: "he has decided to give up his amateur status and go in, with Bobby Jones, for the professional and business side of golf". I dont think he ever played for prize money, but there's more to amateur status than that. Even now, giving a golf lesson for money means you lose your amateur status and become a professional. Nigej (talk) 06:04, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Worth noting that we have Charlie Yates as low amateur in 1934 at Masters Tournament#Low amateurs when he finished below Jones (297 to 294). https://www.newspapers.com/clip/109637715/the-atlanta-constitution/ Nigej (talk) 06:47, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Ok, probably later tonight or tomorrow I will note the year Jones turned pro in the infobox and in the prose. Thank you for the links.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 16:03, 17 September 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

I created a "Turned professional" subheading for Jones using some of the citations we referenced above. I also modified the infobox. If you can make any improvements, please do so.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:50, 20 September 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Notability of wins

Hey,

I have one more thing about Jerry Stolhand. I have included just about every potentially notable event he won in his Amateur wins and Professional wins sections. However, some may be dubious. The most potentially dubious ones I have listed below.

• As a 15-year-old-boy he won his town's local Jaycee event. I included it earlier but now that I think about it it probably isn't notable. In addition, he won a similar event in 1953. What do you think about these events?
• In 1956, he won a professional-assistant tournament in Wichita, Kansas. I know we don't include pro-ams but maybe these pro-assistant events are big enough? This type of event includes two professionals whereas the pro-ams only have one.
• In 1966, he won the "championship flight" of the Barber's Point Open. (The "championship flight" appears to be the title for the "amateur division" back then.) But he didn't win the tournament overall against the pros. He won a lot of these "championship flights." I think these amateur victories should definitely be mentioned in the prose but maybe not in the Wins sections.
• In 1965 and 1968, Stolhand won the Kaneohe Bay Youth Activities Association tournaments. This looks to be a charity benefit event. Not sure what our rules are about including events like this in the Wins sections.

Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 15:41, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Not sure I can give any useful advice. Probably I wouldn't have included any of them. Nigej (talk) 05:14, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I decided to delete the two Jaycee events as we seem to have consensus that we don't include junior events in the Wins sections. With the other stuff, I decided to keep them, at least for now.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:10, 20 September 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Team appearances question

Last night I mentioned this on the main talk page but no one responded. In the Team Appearances section we usually create separate "Amateur" and "Professional" subheadings even if the golfer only participates in one category. However, if the golfer is only involved in one category then it seems extraneous to include a subheading. I think we should delete subheadings in cases like this.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 02:55, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

My system is to not include a header for those who were always amateurs or for professionals who turned pro at an early age (eg Peter Alliss). However if someone was a professional then I include the "amateur" heading even if there is no professional section. Otherwise readers will assume its a professional event. Nigej (talk) 06:03, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Ok thank you for the clarification. It was very helpful.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:11, 11 October 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Rick Hartmann's European career

Hey,

I am currently creating Rick Hartmann's page. He played on the European Tour for 10 years. I have found a lot of stuff on newspapers.com pertaining to his club pro career in the tri-state area after he retired. However, I have found very little pertaining to his career in Europe. I know he didn't have the most sterling career on the European Tour but I figured I would've found more. (He had seventeen top tens including a second and third place finish.)

I was wondering if you had access to British newspaper search engines (e.g. The Times). If so, could you briefly search for Hartmann on them and see if you could find anything? That will help me determine whether I should sign up for them.

Sincerely,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:25, 11 October 2022 (UTC)

Refs for some of his best finishes: T6 1984 Timex Open (first event?) 2nd 1985 Lawrence Batley International Golf Classic T3 1985 Scandinavian Enterprise Open T5 1986 Dunhill British Masters 4th 1990 Carroll's Irish Open T4 1990 Peugeot Open de France Can't find anything that goes into any sort of detail about him. Nigej (talk) 08:39, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

(perhaps you already know but) He qualified for the 2000 PGA Championship with a top-25 finish in the PGA Club Professional Championship in June (after a playoff, 4 playing for 3 places tied on 223 - reduced to 54 holes by bad weather). However he withdrew "after the sudden death of his father, Lawrence, in Florida on Aug 5". He qualified again in 2002 - T16. see https://www.newspapers.com/clip/111185418/obituary-for-lawrence-t-hartmann/ Nigej (talk) 17:35, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

References

Hi Nigej,

Thank you very much for this information. I will most likely use all of it. Thank you for his father's obituary too. Though I knew he skipped the 2000 PGA due to his dad's death I didn't have the obit. It has some useful early life stuff for Hartmann.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 15:50, 14 October 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

ITN recognition for Peter Butler (golfer)

On 17 October 2022, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Peter Butler (golfer), which you nominated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. TJMSmith (talk) 17:17, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Scottish Open columns question

Hello, I see that you recently undone one of my edits saying that there are three columns visible instead of two on wikipedia and it was a common mistake to make. How come I am not viewing three columns like other users ?. Thanks 31.200.181.247 (talk) 21:18, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

It all depends on your screen size and your character size and font, and of course mobile phones will be quite different. Try ctrl+ (ie hold down the ctrl and press +) a few times to get big characters and then ctrl- a few times to get them smaller again. Nigej (talk) 21:23, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Just as an FYI, to mobile viewers like myself, they all list as a single column quite nicely. The thing about this is that we shouldn't try to "fix" a display to suit your own screen. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:53, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Rick Hartmann: lingering info

Hey,

Thanks again for The Glasgow Herald articles earlier about Rick Hartmann. I think I used all of them. I'm pretty much done with his page but, as always, have a few lingering issues. They are listed below:

• His precise date of birth. I have this link from Newsday which says he turned 50 shortly before May 8, 2009. Therefore he was probably born sometime in the spring of 1959. This is confirmed by a number of links from his early career in the Tampa Bay Times which also imply he was born in the spring of 1959. (Like here, for example.) However, I couldn't find anything listing his precise date of birth. Usually the ET website has it but his, for some reason, does not.

• I was looking to see if you have any details about his performance at the finals of q-school. I know he made it to the finals several times but don't have any details. I have this link here stating that he was medalist at North Florida's 1983 regional q-school and made it to that year's finals held at TPC. It is implied in this link that he was unsuccessful in 1983 and probably the year before. As of the middle of 1986, he was unsuccessful three times. He says in that article he intends to try again late in the year. In addition, there is this Mike Lupica article from much later in his career stating that he never made it onto the PGA Tour.

• Do you have any of the specifics about his South African Tour win at the 1984 Swazi Sun Pro-Am? Most of the info I got was from the tournament's page. I have this link but it is not a primary source and doesn't have much specific information.

Any information would be very helpful.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 22:59, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

See https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=78BAAAAAIBAJ&pg=5059%2C960091 for the 1984 Swazi Sun Pro-Am. Also clipped this https://www.newspapers.com/clip/113514044/the-daily-telegraph which has more detail. Nigej (talk) 09:51, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Drawn a blank on the other two. Unless you made it through q-school you rarely got a mention and since he never played on the PGA tour he's not covered by that. You'd think there might be something (eg a media guide) related to his last two majors 2000 and 2002 but I can't find anything at the moment. Nigej (talk) 10:44, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the Daily Telegraph article. Very helpful!

Yeah with q-school stuff, unless you made it in or tragically missed out on the last hole you will prob be forgotten. Thank you for trying though.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 16:24, 25 November 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

One last thing... On a tournament page it says that Hartmann finished runner-up at the 1989 Twee Jonge Gezellen Masters (i.e. South African Masters). However, on that page and in the Sunshine Tour sandbox of User:Wjemather there is no citation. In all of my research of Hartmann nothing popped up. I still included this information on Hartmann's page as it is one of his highest finishes on any big circuit. However, I would still prefer a citation. If you are able to find anything that would be very helpful. Oogglywoogly (talk) 05:37, 9 December 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

You can get the results through the Season Archives at https://www.sunshinetour.info/tic/tmtic.cgi (1990 PGA Summer Tour): https://www.sunshinetour.info/tic/tmresult.cgi?tourn=SAMS~season=190S but it doesn't give scores for this event. I've clipped a newspaper article here: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/114340483/the-daily-telegraph I've added a reference to the South African Masters article. Nigej (talk) 08:05, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi Nige, Thanks so much. I used the newspaper report as a citation.

And somehow I never came across the Sunshine's Tour seasonal archives before. I'm not sure if User: Wjemather or User: Jimmymci234 are interested, but isn't this enough to create seasonal calendars? I know OWGR archives were inadequate but these look pretty good.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:28, 13 December 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

The tour information centre has been updated with results from older seasons relatively recently. If I remember correctly, it didn't go back much farther than the mid-late 1990s. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 21:48, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

I hadn't really thought about it but you're right I think. see (randomly) eg: https://web.archive.org/web/20201001223128/https://www.sunshinetour.info/tic/tmtic.cgi from late 2020 which only goes back to about 1990. Potentially useful stuff, although it seems to be missing the actual scores. Nigej (talk) 21:55, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Looks like the seasons pre-1975 are empty but perhaps a sign that more may be added on the future. Nigej (talk) 21:59, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Re-instated amateur status

Hey Nige,

Could we get this done? If their "yearpro" parameter is still populated we'll just have to deal with it; I personally don't think it's a big deal.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 16:34, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

re: ANI discussion

The individual being called "a shit" by an admin is a long-term abusive individual. There is currently a discussion about having them site-banned on AN. Frankly, I can't blame the admins for being a little fed up with this person and slipping, this individual has made it their sole purpose on Wikipedia to antagonize others for their own fun, for years. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 18:48, 16 December 2022 (UTC)

Louisiana PGA Championship

When I started the Louisiana State Open page we talked about how there was some confusion between the state open and the PGA event. I have link here that says that the 1958 events were played concurrently. Jerry Stolhand won both events. My question is... should both of these wins be counted in his Professional wins section? I think it should definitely noted in the prose (as I have) but it seems redundant for the Wins section. What do you think?

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:09, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

creating a "Tour history" parameter in the infobox

We just talked about this on the main talk page. Could we combine the "Current tour(s)" and "Former tour(s)" parameters and create a "Tour history" parameter with chronology? If merging is not possible, could we delete the existing parameters and create a new one? I know this will be a lot of work but I think it can be done. As I mentioned earlier, I will create chronologies for everyone in the pre-All Exempt Era (and probably do more...). Please let me know your thoughts.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:36, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

early New York State Opens

I posted about this on the main talk page but no one responded. Not sure if you could provided clarity on the New York State Open from the early 20th century. It appears there was a tournament with the same title around 100 years ago but probably unrelated to the modern event. Do you know if it was PGA Tour-level? If so, it probably deserves a page of its own.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 23:10, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Looks to me as if the 1921, 1928, 1929 and 1930 events are regarded as PGA Tour events. Difficult to be 100% certain because of the lack of a decent published list. They appear here: http://www.kronishsports.com/SE/Golf/PGA/1920s/1928.htm but I'd say that was not a reliable source. See also: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/114955471/the-yonkers-herald . This doesn't mention the 1921 event but see eg https://www.newspapers.com/clip/114955504/the-brooklyn-daily-eagle/ which also mentions a 1920 event won by Walter Hagen called the Bellevue Country Club Open. https://www.newspapers.com/clip/114955596/new-york-herald/ has some details. The 1920 event seems to be regarded as a PGA Tour event too, see http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/walter-hagen/

Got to say I'm doubtful about the 1944 event. Seems likely that it's actually the same event as the New York Red Cross Tournament. http://www.worldgolfhalloffame.org/byron-nelson/ calls it "New York Open", no State. Also see eg https://www.newspapers.com/clip/114955301/the-herald-journal/ which shows that the Red Cross event was sometimes called the New York Open.

I'm even more dubious about the Klein win in 1938. Can't find anything and I suspect its a mistake for 1928. See https://gsrpdf.lib.msu.edu/?file=/1950s/1957/570201.pdf from 1957: "WILLIE KLEIN, golf professional for the past thirty years at the Wheatley Hills Golf Club, East Williston, N. Y. Mr. Klein was the 1938 New York State Open Champion and won the Florida Open in 1925." where 1938 is almost certainly a misprint for 1928. Nigej (talk) 11:45, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Hey thanks for all the recent edits to New York State Open. I do think we should create separate pages for the early 20th century events though. It looks like the early 1920s event is a totally different thing. The 1928-1930 tournament was hosted by the New York State Golf Association but I don't think it has any relationship to the Met PGA (which governs the modern event). The fact that they all have the same name seems like a coincidence.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:24, 24 December 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Not a simple decision sometimes. Personally I'm not very keen on articles like New York Red Cross Tournament which have so little content and little prospect of expansion. I'm thinking that perhaps we could combine the early events with that, although I'm not sure what name we'd use, they're all PGA Tour event in New York State. As it says as WP:N, the events might each be notable but "Editors may use their discretion to merge or group two or more related topics into a single article." Nigej (talk) 21:38, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Personally I would still like separate articles. I don't think combining would make sense; they seem to have little relation to one another except for the superficial commonality of their name. I would say we either make separate articles or don't make any new articles at all.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:46, 29 December 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

I'm not clear what article names you're thinking of. Would we retain New York State Open for the existing event? and then create New York State Open (New York State Golf Association) with a hatnote to it from the other article. And what about the 1919/1920 events? Nigej (talk) 08:21, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah I would just keep New York State Open for the modern event. For the late 1920s event I would create a page entitled New York State Open (1920s event). For the earliest event I think it would be easiest to disambiguate by referring to it by its first name, Bellevue Country Club Open. All these events should be included go on a general disambiguation page.

It's a similar concept to the Connecticut Open and Connecticut Open (1910s event).

Oogglywoogly (talk) 17:10, 30 December 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Wouldn't be my first choice but if you want to go that route its up to you really. Nigej (talk) 18:36, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Yeah I think I will create separate articles for the two early events. WP:N says that the topics need to be "related." In my mind, these NY state events are only very superficially related by the title. There seems to be no organizational relationship between any of the events. To me, it would be like saying that the Pennsylvania Open Championship and Philadelphia Inquirer Open, both PGA Tour-level events, were the "same event" if the Inquirer event was entitled the "Pennsylvania Open" for most of its history (which it easily could have been). Still, in this hypothetical example, they are still distinctly notable as they both had PGA Tour-level status and probably had a different organizational relationship.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:00, 31 December 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Happy New Year, Nigej!

Happy New Year!

Nigej,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
Abishe (talk) 02:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

   Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

Abishe (talk) 02:52, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Happy New Year, Nigej!

Happy New Year!

Nigej,
Have a prosperous, productive and enjoyable New Year, and thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia.
— Moops ^⋠T⋡ 04:35, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

   Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year fireworks}} to user talk pages.

— Moops ^⋠T⋡ 04:35, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Long Island PGA Championship

Hey,

I recently found primary sources for most individual Long Island PGA Championship events. Right now I'm having trouble creating a fluid table for all of the events though. The event started as a stroke play event, briefly changed to a match play event, and then returned to stroke play for another 35 years. In the 1970s, however, it returned to a match play format (which remains). Basically I want to create one smooth table for the tournament. However, I would like to include "To par" and "Margin of victory" columns which are unique to stroke play. Is there a way this can be done or will I have to create four separate tables?

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:47, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

You need to use "colspan". See eg Australian PGA Championship before 1964. Create the header with the "To par" and "Margin of victory" columns, but when it's a match-play final use "colspan=3" eg "colspan=3 align=center|1 up" so that the "1 up" spans 3 columns. Generally looks better with centering (ie "align=center") Nigej (talk) 20:56, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Hey thanks. I made the changes last night. I'm not used to Source editing so it was hell trying to figure out but once I did it was easy.

One last thing. On their website, they do not note a 1966 champion. On newspapers.com I couldn't find anything either. However, for the 1977 reportage of the event they say that the 42nd event was held. Given that there was no 1946 event, there should have been a 1966 event. (The reporter, of course, could be wrong too.) What do you think?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 16:56, 11 January 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

I found these: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/116293056/asbury-park-press/ https://www.newspapers.com/clip/116293079/asbury-park-press/ whoich seems to indicate there was one, but not much detail given. Nigej (talk) 13:42, 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for digging these up. Right now, though, I won't include the information as I am suspicious about the second link. It says that the 1966 Long Island PGA was a two-round event and held in June. But during this era it was always a three-round event and, though it moved around a bit, never held during that month in the 1960s. It also implies that Nieporte won a team event. If you think the information is valid, however, you are free to include it.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:44, 12 January 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

You've misread it. It says that by winning the LI PGA he got a place in a team event. https://www.newspapers.com/clip/116354960/the-morning-call/ Nigej (talk) 06:40, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Hey thanks for the clarification and second link. It is now clear that an event occurred in '66 and Nieporte won it. I included the details on the page.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:13, 14 January 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

snooker season 22/23

Hi can I ask you a question. When you look at the above season does all the events finals sit on one line ?. When I view the page the finals are breaking into two lines etc. Why does it not sit all on one row like your view does please ?. 178.167.156.154 (talk) 18:43, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

It depends. When I use my laptop with the new "skin" and the "wide" setting there is no wrapping onto two lines. When I change it to the reduced width ("toggle" is at the bottom right of the screen) then it does wrap quite a lot. On my mobile phone it does wrap. There are countless numbers of different devices with different screen sizes. Also people have different fonts and different character sizes, and they can change various setting in their Wikipedia "preferences". So for some people is does wrap and for some it doesn't. Making changes so that it looks better on one particular screen is no use, it often makes it worse for other people. If we make changes then we need to be pretty sure it works for nearly all users. Nigej (talk) 19:00, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

I found that toggle you were talking about bout it only works if the screen is at 90% right ?. If you put it to 100% the toggle or zoom option disappears am i right ?. Sure that is no good. Is there anway around this ?. Why did wikipedia mess around with there layout ?. can you view the toggle when your laptop is at 100% ? Thanks 178.167.156.154 (talk) 19:42, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

For me it is there at 100% character size (which I normally use). If I make the characters bigger it does disappear, I suppose it falls off the screen in some way. Looks like a bug to me. Logged-in users can simply go back to the old "skin" if they want (not sure about other users). The old "skin" is called "Vector legacy (2010)". If anyone does that, it will look exactly the same for them as it did before the change last week. Nigej (talk) 20:10, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

How come it is there for you at 100% and it disappears for me when i go up to 100 from 90% ?. i always use 100% character size as well, Do you know why that is please ?. 178.167.156.154 (talk) 20:28, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Could be lots of reasons. We're probably using different makes of laptop with different screen sizes (I'm using 1600x900 I think). Maybe we're using different browsers. Different operating systems? Who knows. Why does everybody look different to everyone else? A million different reasons. Nigej (talk) 20:34, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

How am I banned ?.

I am afraid you owe an apology ?. You should now accuse people that you do not know ?. 178.167.182.17 (talk) 15:43, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

User:DooksFoley147 is banned from editing the English Wikipedia. You and he show exactly the same editing style: an obsession with fields in snooker tables wrapping onto two lines, a keen interest in Oasis album sales and a habit of assuming that other people are completely stupid. Give us a break. There can't be two such people in the world like that, let alone two in Ireland. Nigej (talk) 16:24, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Midland

Not sure what happened there - I could have sworn it was the Challenge Cup article I was looking at! _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 08:34, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

I think we've all done that a few times. Nigej (talk) 08:42, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

1970s vic am stuff

I am busy creating a page for Mike Cahill. I have some questions though. According to this link he won the 1971 Victorian junior amateur. However, it's just a secondary source. Not sure if you could find a primary source.

Also, according to these links here and here Cahill played on the Victorian team for the junior interstate series in the early 1970s. However, I noticed on your Australian Men's Interstate Teams Matches page that he was not listed. Are these events different?

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 17:03, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

According to https://assets.ctfassets.net/3urhge2ecl20/7xchuW9vzf3PH8aOJFG0Om/75803f33e53d8802b5afed60c5aa28b3/VIC_Honour_Roll_Full.pdf the 1971 Victorian boys event was won by T. Vogelzang and that's confirmed by this https://www.newspapers.com/image/828692416/?terms=victorian%20boys%20championship&match=1 although its Vogelezang there. The junior event Cahill won was different see https://www.newspapers.com/image/122481126/?terms=cahill%20golf&match=1 where its called the junior open. Not sure what the difference is between the two. Perhaps the junior open was open to boys from outside the state or perhaps they were different age groups. The junior interstate was different to the men's one, see https://assets.ctfassets.net/3urhge2ecl20/46s701KhgITgu4OPKI8rgE/8ab9a75f9b49d2f62f29df88592aab1d/HONOUR_ROLL_-_Australian_Junior_Interstate_Teams_Matches.pdf but I don't know anything about it. Nigej (talk) 17:38, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm thinking that perhaps the boys was under-18 and the junior was under-21. Also note that the boys championship was match-play while the junior open was stroke play, Nigej (talk) 19:13, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. The only problem is that you can no longer access The Age links on newspapers.com in any form. I noticed this a few days ago. Not sure what happened. Maybe the website lost their license for the paper, a contract dispute, etc.

Nonetheless, without access to the links I did my best making the appropriate edits pertaining to Cahill's amateur career in Victoria. If you see any flaws, however, please make corrections.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 23:19, 15 February 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Yes. I hadn't noticed before but The Age has disappeared from 1956 onwards. I think they used to go to about 2000. You can still get most to 1989 on Google new archive: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=MDQ-9Oe3GGUC but the search facility there is useless, so you need to know the date. Nigej (talk) 08:41, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

Wow, I am shocked. This is devastating to me as The Age was one of my top sources. Do you know what in the world happened with their relationship with newspapers.com?

I'm definitely familiar with Google News Archives and I know you can get access to The Age through the site. But, as you state, there is no search function no unless you know precisely what you are looking for it is largely useless.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:44, 17 February 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Hey, I just added the Victorian junior to his page. I characterized it as Victoria Junior Open Golf Championship.

In addition, I noticed that The Age was working today on newspapers.com. Do you what changed?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 23:16, 21 February 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Maybe it was because I complained. LOL Nigej (talk) 23:19, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Did you really? If so, it may have done the trick.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 04:30, 24 February 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Got a reply from "Scott". He didn't address the specific issue, just said: "Sometimes content is removed/withheld from our site for legal/licensing reasons." Nigej (talk) 07:46, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

1972 amateur event

In 1972, Cahill played in some international amateur event against South Africa but I don't know which one it is. (The link I originally had from The Age doesn't work anymore but here it is anyway.) I assumed it was the Commonwealth Tournament but I checked the Wiki site and the event didn't exist in 1972. (I would provide you a Google News Archive link from that date, October 6, 1972, but they don't have that day's page for The Age either.) Do you know what event it was?

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 05:16, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

It seems to have been a one-off match, arranged as a warm-up for the Humberto de Almeida Cup in Brazil and the Eisenhower Trophy in Argentina, that were in the weeks that followed: [1]. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 07:30, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it was clearly a warm-up match for the Eisenhower Trophy (the same 4 players), a really big event in those days. I've also seen Australia/New Zealand matches like that. His travels also explain why Cahill missed the interstate matches that year. Nigej (talk) 08:10, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Given that it was a minor event I think I will delete it from the page. But thank you for the information.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:14, 18 February 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

1973 interstate team

I have an article here that states that Cahill made the 1973 Australian Men's Interstate Teams Matches team. However, there is no evidence that he played. I think he turned pro late in the that year which is why he may have been left off the team. Not sure if you know anything...

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:13, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Clearly Don Reiter (not in the original team, per your reference) replaced Cahill. The obvious answer is that he turned professional, but I can't find any proof. Nigej (talk) 20:33, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

Thanks the clarification!

Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:18, 18 February 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Halls Head Western Open: lingering info

Hey,

I published the Halls Head Western Open last night. I had a couple reservations and posted these questions on the main talk page last night but no one responded. They are beneath:

• According to an American newspaper, Peter Fowler finished in second place at the 1983 tournament. However, I could find no evidence that this event took place. Do you know anything of this alleged event?
• According to another American newspaper, the Mandurah Classic took place in 2000. Do you know if it has any relation to the 1970s event?
• Lastly, regarding the flags... do we really need them? I decided not to include them for this tournament. The Halls Head was a minor event and only Australian players finished in the top two. I feel like flags are really only necessary in big, international tournaments with a variety of nationalities.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:59, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Hey Nige,

Sorry but do you have any information? Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:40, 28 February 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

No, nothing I'm afraid. I suspect the 2000 event was for amateurs. Could have been other professional events but almost certainly not another OoM event. Until we have access to WA newspapers we probably won't know, Personally I'm happy not to have the flags. Seems pretty pointless for domestic events with little or no overseas participation. Nigej (talk) 20:49, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the response. I deleted the citations for the alleged later events. For the 1983 tournament, despite a number of searches, all I found was a source from a newspaper in Ohio that didn't go into much detail. Not that reliable. And I would be shocked if the 2000 event was continuous with the 1970s version.

Ok, I think a lot of these flags on other pages should be deleted. For example, on your Victorian Amateur Championship page almost all of the champions and finalists are from the same state in Australia. In the early years there were a few foreign-born champions but most were Australian immigrants. (In addition, I think most of the red links can be changed to plain text.)

Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:55, 28 February 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Past Papers

Thanks for your note about Past Papers. It is such a wonderful source and was very helpful for me when I created the page for Ted Douglas. If they significantly expand beyond the mid-20th century could you let me know?

In addition, do you know why they primarily stop at 1955? Seems a bit odd.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 01:19, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

1973 Bibiscus Coast Classic

In 1973, Terry Kendall won this event held in Orewa, New Zealand. In the article there is no mention of it being on the OoM. Nonetheless, I wanted to pass it off to you in the off-chance that it was part the circuit that year. (Fwiw, in your sandbox you do not label it as such.)

Sincerely,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 02:36, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Tricky one for me. First thing to note is the misprint, it should be Hibiscus Coast. This article [2] does mention it as one of the "major events" but not one of the "big tournaments". Prize money of $5,000 was much less than the main events. I haven't found any money list for this season, which could confirm whether it was included in that or not. The Hamilton Charity event did not take place [3], but the Hawke's Bay pro-am series did, although the format was a bit unusual [4][5]. [6]] calls it a pro-am, however [7]] seems to indicate it was a bona-fide 54 hole event. Given that the Spalding Masters was included in 1972 indicates that perhaps the Hibiscus Coast event was too. Nigej (talk) 07:32, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

If it helps, in his annuals, Mark McCormack refers to the NZ Tour as a 5 tournament circuit in 1973/74 and makes no mention of the Hibiscus Coast event (or any others). Incidentally, he gives the leading money winners as Bob Charles ($10,000), John Lister ($8,997) and Robert Taylor (nearly $4K less than Lister) – although these figures don't seem to quite add up with those in the appendix, so perhaps other events did count. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 10:18, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

With such small prize money it probably didn't attract the leading players anyway [8] so it'll be difficult to work it out its status from a prize money list. With the McCormack information about the 5 tournament circuit I'm inclined to leave it out for now. Nigej (talk) 13:16, 17 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank you both for the information. I'll be sure to update Kendall's page with the correct title of the event. Meanwhile, I'd still assume the Hibiscus event was not on the Order of Merit. It seems to be a one-off, the prize money was small, and it was only 54-holes long.

Between your sources and the information of User: Wjemather, I would assume the NZ PGA was the other event on the circuit that year. It seems clearly the biggest event of the other four (or, I guess, three as the Hamilton event was cancelled).

Oogglywoogly (talk) 16:57, 18 March 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

subheadings for Team Appearances section

This is small thing but I wanted to bring it up. For the "Amateur" and "Professional" subheadings in the Team Appearances section I was following your lead and using sub-heading #2. However, on the page of Mike Cahill the bot User:WikiCleanerBot has twice changed the size from subheading #2 to subheading #1. See a "diff" here.

Perhaps, we should start using subheading #1 from now on for the heading hierarchies in this section. What are your thoughts?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:59, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

(talk page watcher), you can't have subheadings that are of an order of magnitude lower than the one previous. If you are under a level 2 header, the next one must be a level 3 or above by design. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:08, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Normally we don't use headings for these, we just use bold, eg '''Amateur''' which appears as Amateur. Nigej (talk) 21:11, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Thank both of you for the clarification. In the future, for the Team Appearances section, I will be sure to use normal text and just emboldened it.

@ Nigej: Is this also applicable for the Professional Wins sections? Before I had been using subheadings (i.e. PGA Tour of Australasia wins, Other wins, etc). Should it just be normal text in bold?

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 18:42, 23 March 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

No, we normally use proper headings for those. Not 100% sure of the exact reason. The team appearances section is a bulleted list with a maximum of two groupings (amateur, professional), so perhaps it was felt that there was no need for anything to appear in the table of contents. Nigej (talk) 18:58, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. I'll make sure to maintain the same format for the the wins section.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:20, 23 March 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Notice

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved.

the name of Naomichi "Joe" Ozaki

I've making a lot of edits to late 1990s Players Championships recently. Naomichi "Joe" Ozaki is referenced frequently however his name is not consistently spelled. Sometimes it's Naomichi Ozaki and sometimes it's Joe Ozaki. I noticed on most Wikipedia pages we just use his Japanese name. However, I noticed on the PGA Tour website that they use the name Joe Ozaki. I'm actually inclined to use his English-language name as this is an English-language website. However, I'm not sure what MOS says about this.

In addition, whatever we decide for his name should be applicable to his brothers Masashi "Jumbo" Ozaki and Tateo "Jet" Ozaki who have similarly styled names and other Asian golfers where this is relevant (e.g. Tsuneyuki "Tommy" Nakajima). Let me know your thoughts.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:24, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Tricky area for me. Personally I'm not at all keen on giving Asian golfers daft western-style names; it has racist connotations to me. However it was done (and still is eg Tom Kim). Quite why westerners can't use their proper name is a mystery to me. However, policy/guidelines say that we should be using the name used in reliable sources at the time (I think), so Jumbo is probably correct. Also note that the name we currently have for the article (eg Masashi Ozaki) is not relevant. On that basis Jumbo is correct. Note also per WP:NOPIPE and MOS:NOPIPE that the correct usage is the simple plain Jumbo Ozaki. Nigej (talk) 21:47, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes I think we should use the English-language names given that we are advised to "avoid making links longer than necessary." Overall, I think it is probably just laziness, not racism, that explains these nicknames. It's somewhat pathetic that journalists and broadcasters - whose primary job is to speak or write precisely - just can't do it. But alas, they didn't and standardized English-language nicknames developed. In addition, it's his first name on the website of the PGA Tour, his former employer. I think if he was uncomfortable with it he would have let them know. Lastly, for what's it's worth, if you type "Naomichi Ozaki" and "Joe Ozaki" in newspapers.com the latter gets way more results.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 23:00, 28 March 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

In addition, if we have consensus between ourselves we should notify others members of WikiProject Golf on the main talk page. These are well-known golfers and many members edit pages related to these names.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:50, 29 March 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Venue section for Players Championship

I think this section should clearly be deleted on all of the individual tournament pages (e.g. 1974 Tournament Players Championship, 1999 Players Championship) for this event. The Players has almost always been at the same course and the location is already noted in the infobox. Not sure if you have any other thoughts though.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 22:35, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Of course it hasn't always been played on the same course, only since 1982. The same issue applies to the Masters. One point is that the infobox should be a summary of what's in the article, so we can't use the presence of anything in the infobox as a reason for deletion. Another issue is that although the venue stays the same, the course varies from year to year in terms of length. Overall I'm inclined to think that a short section on the venue is useful. Nigej (talk) 07:18, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

I have changed my mind - what you say makes sense. Information from the infobox is only supposed to replicate information from the text. In addition, the length does change from year-to-year so that information should be there. My only caveat is that I'm not sure if we need a whole section for this as this section is usually limited to a sentence and one row.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:55, 29 March 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

OWGR weekly archives

I recently created an Eligibility requirements section for the 2000 Players Championship. Usually I just need the PGA Tour Media Guide and the PGA Tour website to determine who got in. However, criterion #7 is a bit different as it refers exclusively to the top 50 in the OWGR. I went through the Official World Golf Ranking archives and easily determined who made this requirement. However, I have had trouble uploading this archive as a citation. (The main option I have is this: file:///Users/lightelligence/Downloads/Week%2011%20Ranking%20-%20Sunday,%20March%2019,%202000%20(2).pdf.) OWGR only gives you Microsoft Word or PDF as options to upload a document. Not sure if you know how to convert this document into a website - any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:00, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Looks like you've downloaded it and are then tried to link to the downloaded file. That won't work. Unfortunately they changed the whole system last year and I'm now struggling to find the actual names of the archive files. Previously they had names like https://www.owgr.com/archive/PastRankings/2000/owgr11f2000.pdf but that doesn't work now . Some of these old ones are archived in the "wayback machine" eg https://web.archive.org/web/20220402110246/https://www.owgr.com/archive/PastRankings/2000/owgr11f2000.pdf but that's not an ideal solution. The new names seem to be impossible to find. Not sure what the best approach is. Perhaps just to link to https://www.owgr.com/archive Nigej (talk) 07:15, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your effort. Yeah it used to be easy to cite these archives but not anymore. In terms of getting a citation here I think we're helpless but it's not that big of a deal because this criterion only affects a few players a year. Once again, thank you for your efforts.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:09, 4 April 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

AWB

FYI, I noticed this edit did not amend the flags to flagicons, so have corrected it. I'm not sure if there are any others. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 14:22, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes. I was aware of it. 1974 too. Nigej (talk) 14:24, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Perfect. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 14:25, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

2000 Players Championship

This one is just a curiosity thing. I was wondering why a number of golfers who qualified for the 2000 Players Championship did not play. Criterion #9 in the Eligibility requirements refers to the top golfers that year who were otherwise ineligible. Below is the list of golfers that got in through this qualification standard and their money list rank at the time:

Shigeki Maruyama (#11), Matt Gogel (#21), Robert Allenby (#22), Russ Cochran (#41), Naomichi Ozaki (#93), Trevor Dodds (#135), Ronnie Black (#140), Eric Booker (#169)

The first four guys make sense. But then there are a loads of golfers between Cochran and Ozaki who could have played (e.g. Robin Freeman (golfer), Jay Williamson) but did not. And in between Ozaki and Eric Booker there are even more (e.g. Craig Spence (golfer), Grant Waite, Joe Ogilvie). Do you know why so many elected not to play? I would assume that a lot of the alternates just weren't at the TPC prepared to play but wondered what you thought.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:27, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Tournament Winners criterion

I recently created an Eligibility requirements section for the 2004 Players Championship. Almost all of it is done however I do not understand criterion #4 ("Tournament Winners"). The 2004 media guide is not particularly helpful. The most detailed information I found was on page 17 of the media guide which lists the Priority Rankings. Criterion #33 refers to "Team Tournament Winners" but I suspect the Players Championship criterion refers to something different. I also went down to the Index of the media guide but found nothing.

I assume this category refers to golfers who won events in recent years that is not covered by criterion #1, the major championships criteria, or the WGC criteria. I suspect a lot of golfers that I have in criterion #12 actually qualified within the category. However, I have no evidence for this. Not sure if you could help me.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 01:41, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

main talk page post

I recently published a post entitled "What wins to include in the Wins sections??" on the main talk page. I know I post a lot on the talk page but this one is pretty important as I'm trying to firm up what wins we should post in the Wins sections. We've had a lot of discussions about this over the years (as I list in the post) but it appears we have yet to come to consensus. If you could briefly respond that would be nice.

Thank you,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:37, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Snooker lists

Nigej: You'll have noticed that I've been messing about with snooker lists lately (I like lists). I'm currently looking at the List of snooker players by number of ranking titles and would like to change all the Flagicons to Flagathletes, but I notice that the template specifies using {{flagicon|}}{{sortname||}} for the players' names. Is there a reason for this? Flagicons are particularly annoying when the current flag is different to the relevant flag (look at Silvino Francisco in the list for an example). Also I see no reason why we need to use {{sortname}} since the table is not sortable. So I've copied the list into my sandbox and changed the flags etc. and it all seems to work OK. Please take a look at it in my sandbox and let me know if you think it's OK? Alan. AlH42 (talk) 09:12, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Paul Barjon photo

Hey,

I recently posted about this on the main talk page but no one responded. I am trying to upload a photo for Paul Barjon on his Wiki page. Specifically, I am trying to upload his photo from his KF win at Huntsville. The link is here.

I saved it to my Desktop and tried to upload it from there but it didn't work. Do I have to save this photo in a WikiMedia library or something and then upload it from there? Any help would be much appreciated.

Sincerely,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 01:35, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

1927 World Snooker Championship

Hi, 1927 World Snooker Championship is now a Featured Article. I just wanted to acknowledge all the great work you did there and on other snooker articles. Many thanks, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 19:49, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

List of male golfers who have been in the world top 10

Did you give up on updating the Top 10 list? You where doing a great job.Tomrtn (talk) 02:22, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Been out of action here for most of the summer. I'll have a look this weekend and hopefully get back in the weekly routine. Nigej (talk) 09:04, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Tour season infoboxes

Hi, is it possible to amend the season infoboxes so that they can show more than 4 awards? Maybe there is a reason for this perhaps. Thanks Jimmymci234 (talk) 19:37, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

No reason I think, so WP:BOLD applies I suggest. {{Infobox golf season}} seems to be only "semi-protected" so you should be able to edit it. Update the "Template documentation" too. Looks like it's been unchanged since Phinumu created it. Nigej (talk) 19:46, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

@Nigej: Thanks! Jimmymci234 (talk) 20:11, 30 August 2023 (UTC)

Salem Country Club

I published a page for Salem Country Club a week and a half ago. I usually get an Approval or Denial from an administrator within a day or two of the publication. But for some reason I haven't heard back with this one. I think the content is clearly notable (USGA champions, top 100 in Golf Digest) and the page is about as complete as it gets. But even if the page isn't worthy of publication I would like to get a firm decision as it has been quite some time. I am bringing this up with you because you are an administrator and are capable of making these decisions. Any response would be nice.

Thank you,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 05:51, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Actually I'm not an administrator. Are you're talking about new page patrol. I gather there's a big backlog of articles needing review, see Wikipedia:New pages patrol. In case I have "patrolled" your article, since it is up to the minimum standard for articles. Nigej (talk) 06:59, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification about your administrator status. You had approved a lot of my articles so I assumed you were an administrator. Also, thank you for your approval (or designating a "patrolled" status) for the Salem CC page.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 14:44, 11 September 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

User:DooksFoley147

He's back, using 178.167.191.7 IP address. He's been updating the 2023 Shanghai Masters but the stuff he's done so far has been good so I've left it alone. Worth keeping an eye on though.  Alan  (talk) 06:51, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Indeed. I've not got the heart to undo this sort of stuff. Nigej (talk) 06:58, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Best to avoid unnecessary arguments. I'll keep an eye on it while I'm watching the match, in case he starts updating scores mid-match as he used to do. Maybe he'll see this thread and desist.  Alan  (talk) 07:18, 11 September 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, but I disagree with this approach. DF147 is site banned (not just blocked) for good reason; as such, any IPs they use to circumvent than ban should be reported to the appropriate noticeboard so they can be appropriately blocked before further disruption is inevitably caused. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 10:48, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

He is back again using 92.251.150.165 . I just reverted one edit in the British Open.  Alan  (talk) 17:18, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

Simon Hobday's sporting nationality

I recently did a lot of work on the 1978–79 Southern Africa Tour. Simon Hobday won the first two events, both in Rhodesia. He is noted in this link as "Rhodesia's top professional." Early in life, he also represented Zambia at the 1966 Eisenhower Trophy. However, his sporting nationality in his infobox exclusively says South Africa. If you could provide any clarification on this matter that would be helpful.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 02:17, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Japan Challenge Tour

Hi, I noticed recently that the Japan Challenge Tour article has become quite extensively long with the season tables all being on the one page. As I don’t think the tour carries enough notability to have individual articles for each season, I was considering moving each season table + money list to the relevant Japan Golf Tour season, similarly to what we have done with the Von Nida Tour. Would still keep the main Japan Challenge Tour article of course. Thoughts? Jimmymci234 (talk) 09:08, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Seems a good option to me. I certainly wouldn't want them as separate articles, probably never to be improved. Nigej (talk) 12:53, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguation

Sorry about that. I thought the disambiguation had been taken out, not added in. Got confused.  Alan  (talk) 13:59, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Snooker season 2023/24 and 85%

I'm sure I'm missing something; I hope you can tell me what it is. The edit history says the 80% change was reverted. It says 85% is the minimum permitted. Why and permitted by whom? 195.10.110.178 (talk) 12:24, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

See eg MOS:SMALL in the "Accessibility" article, which says "In no case should the resulting font size of any text drop below 85% of the page's default font size." or MOS:SMALLFONT which says "The resulting font size of any text should not drop below 85% of the page's default font size." or WP:MOS#Formatting issues which says "The resulting font size of any text should not drop below 85% of the page's default font size." It's one of the reason we don't use small fonts in infoboxes, the text there is already smaller than normal. See also {{Small}}: "well below the 85% minimum specified in the linked guidelines." Nigej (talk) 13:26, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

NZ circuit co-sanctioned events

Hi Nigej,

Thank you for recently publishing the New Zealand Golf Circuit page. I just noted the circuit status of three events in the tour column: New Zealand Open, New Zealand PGA Championship, and the Air New Zealand Shell Open. From our discussion earlier this year, we noted that the 1974 NZ Open and the 1977 Air NZ event were probably part of the Aussie Oom. However, I didn't include the "ANZ" designation yet as you know way more about this era than me. What are your thoughts about these events being co-sanctioned?

Best,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 22:43, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

I think it's clear that some of the later events were also on the Australian tour too, but which ones I've no idea. In the early years there was certainly some conflict between the two, so it's unlikely that there were any at the period. However they then seemed to get on better and it seems clear that from 1973 (when the Australian Order of Merit started) or soon after, NZ events were included in the OoM. Nigej (talk) 08:47, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok let's keep it the way it is until we get more information.

For the tour abbreviations, I originally put in "NZ" but User: Jimmymci234 changed it to "NZGC." I know this is a little thing but I think "NZ" is more appropriate. I feel like it is more in line with most of our abbreviations like "ANZ" (not "ANZT") for the Australian Tour and "EUR" (not "EURT") for the European Tour. I will not make any changes until I get consensus though.

Sincerely,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:06, 9 November 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

@Oogglywoogly: Just felt like a more natural abbreviation. Jimmymci234 (talk) 21:50, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

I suppose an issue here is to distinguish between this circuit and the later short-lived Golf Tour of New Zealand which was always abbreviated GTNZ. On that basis NZGC makes some sense, although there was a New Zealand Golf Council that that could perhaps be confused with. Maybe NZC is an option to indicate that this was always known as a circuit, never a tour. Nigej (talk) 08:05, 10 November 2023 (UTC)

It's referred to as the "New Zealand Tour" in McCormack, but then he refers to pretty much everything as a "tour", even if the official title is "circuit". I'll check if there is anything about the NZ events joining the Australian tour when I get chance. _wjemather^{please leave a message...} 08:41, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

In the The Press, which is the only domestic source, it's never referred to as a "tour", always a "circuit" but a look at Newspapers.com indicates that some overseas papers do call it a "tour", I suppose to fit in with local terminology. Nigej (talk) 09:11, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

@Jimmymci234, @Nigej: Given the information, I think "NZC" is the best idea for an abbreviation.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 05:41, 11 November 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

@Nigej, @User: Wjemather: Thank you for your responses. I still don't know why there is confusion over whether this was a circuit or tour though. The only domestic source we have (which is clearly reliable) says it is a "circuit." Meanwhile, wjemather implies that McCormack is unreliable in this regard. I think it is clearly a circuit.

Do we have any updates on co-sanctioning? I would be very surprised if the top three events weren't co-sanctioned in the late '70s but, again, the evidence we have so far is weak.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:17, 14 November 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Requested move: Donald Ross (golfer) to Donald Ross (golf course architect)

Hi Nige,

Could you please attempt to make this move on Ross' talk page? We tried to change it to just "Donald Ross" but, as you know, that didn't work. It seems beyond clear to me, as I discussed earlier on the main talk page, that "architect" (or some variation) is far more appropriate than "golfer." It seems other users agreed.

I would attempt to do this myself but, as you said on the main talk page, "this sort of 'move' can't be done by normal users." Please let me know your thoughts.

Sincerely,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 00:45, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

Could we get this done soon? If not I will try to do it.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 02:52, 24 November 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

I'll get it started. Nigej (talk) 07:56, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Thanks! I just posted on his talk page. I believe we will get an affirmative response soon.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 01:00, 28 November 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Thor Chuan Leong (Rory Thor)

@Nigej: You undid one of my edits in the 2023 UK Championship article, and that's absolutely fine. Your revert said "If sources use Rory Thor that's what should be using here. The fact that our article for him currently has a different name shouldn't affect that in any way. That's for another discussion.". But surely our main source is the WST and his player page has his name as "Thor Chuan Leong" and his nickname as "Rory Thor". This was one we missed when doing the nicknames template so I have added it in. We have used his full name in every other tournament this season, so why should this one be different? snooker.org sometimes uses his full name and sometimes his nickname - they are not consistent. The awful live scores website tends to use his nickname though. I think we should be consistent and use his full name without an unnecessary pipe which is why I made the edit (that you reverted) in the first place.  Alan  (talk) 10:08, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

See WT:SNOOKER where I've started a discussion. I'm not convinced that Rory Thor is really a nickname, seems to me it's rather like James Wattana, a westernised name that he used. You're certainly right that we shouldn't be using a pipe. Nigej (talk) 10:15, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

European Seniors Tour

Thank You for creating the EST articles! Part of the golfing history. Regards, EEJB (talk) 07:37, 23 November 2023 (UTC)

Wishes

Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} is wishing you a Merry Christmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Don't eat yellow snow!

Spread the holiday cheer by adding {{subst:User:Flaming/MC2008}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:46, 23 December 2023 (UTC)

Cedric Amm

I recently published the page for Cedric Amm. There are a few missing details, however.

• His precise date of birth. I have this link that says he was born in 1940 or very early 1941. But then I have this link that implies he was born in late 1941 or 1942. Something is clearly amiss. Not sure if any of your major championship books have a DOB for him.
• I did not find much information about his experiences in Europe. I suspect it is because he did not play well. However, if you have any Glasgow Herald data about any high finishes that would be helpful.
• I could not find the final results for a number of tournaments he placed high in late in his career on any of the search engines. It is noted that he was near the lead at the midway point of the 1967 General Motors Open but I could not find any final round info. Later in the year he tied for the lead with Brian Barnes at the Flame Lily but, again, no final results. Two years later, he was again near the lead with Barnes, this time at the Western Province Open, but once more no final results popping up.
• Lastly, I could not find any information about his career after the late 1960s. It's as if the guy disappears. The closest I found was some horse racing info referring to a certain Cedric A. Amm. A lot of people into golf are into horse racing but there's no way to know for certain if it's the same guy. If you know anything please let me know.

Sincerely,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 18:12, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Not easy to find much but I did a bit of family history research. Found this [9] which has "C A Amm", perhaps indicating that the Cedric A. Amm may be the same person. However most golf sources just give Cedric Amm or C Amm. This [10] mentions Cedric Austin Amm and Barbara Carol Amm. Also found this baptism [11] of Cedric Austin Amm, born 5 December 1940. Unfortunately none of these sources mention golf so it's difficult to be certain that we're talking about the same man. Nigej (talk) 21:22, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Found this [12] "Former professional golfer Cedric Amm and his wife Barbara" which seems to confirm the connection. Nigej (talk) 21:50, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Thank you so much for your hard work and doing it all so quickly. Although this generally could be construed as "circumstantial evidence" I think we can easily infer it's all the same guy.

A couple final things: with the Family Search site is it possible to clip the baptismal record? I'm not a subscriber. I just added the link to his page but would prefer more transparent evidence. Also, I don't know anything about horse racing and wasn't sure how to characterize his role. I referred to him as a "horse breeder" on the bottom of his article. If you can improve it, however, please do.

Merry Christmas,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 00:09, 25 December 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Not quite sure what you want for baptism. For copyright reasons I probably can't make a permanent copy that you can use as a reference but i could create something temporary if you just want to look at the original (although I think everything useful is on the page I linked to). Nigej (talk) 17:34, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Try [13] Nigej (talk) 17:48, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the link but I'm getting "There was an error retrieving your file."

Oogglywoogly (talk) 05:16, 27 December 2023 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Q Tour

Thanks for correcting my edit on the 2023–24 Q Tour page, I just realized that there are different Q Tours starting this season. Should we add all of them to the 2023–24 snooker season table then? It only has the UK/EU events at the moment. AmethystZhou (talk) 20:34, 7 January 2024 (UTC)

How many is too many?

@Nigej: Two issues. The first is regarding the ranking tournaments article. It is currently a bit short of references. I would like to add a "Ref." column but we would end up with over 400 references, mostly from snooker.org. Would this be WP:TOOMANYREFS? It would be a fair bit of work to dig them all out, but is it worth the effort?

The second issue is regarding the maximum breaks list. I have all the data for the referees (only two are unknown) and would be able to add footnotes for them in the same way that I did in the tables in the Triple Crown finals article. The only problem with doing this is that we would end up with more than 80 footnotes for referees. Again, is it worth doing?  Alan  (talk) 22:07, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

1: Personally I'm quite keen on the "ref" columns. One issue is the width of the table. I was thinking we could go down the line of the Maximum break article and remove the flags from the main table. See User:Nigej/Ronnie which I created years ago (mainly for my own interest) where the main table has a reference column rather similar to the one you propose. 2. I'm perhaps less keen on that idea. I see that [14] includes them. With all the references and footnotes, it could get pretty confusing to the reader. And I suppose the fundamental question is whether it's a sufficiently talked about topic or whether we're moving too much into the WP:NOTSTATS area. Nigej (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2024 (UTC)

1: I like the "ref" columns too. As to the table width, if you compare the ranking tournaments table with the minor-ranking tournaments table, the main reason the first table is so wide is not the flags but the two "age" columns which I think are unnecessary and could be removed. The second table has a "ref" column, and is OK because there are only 69 rows in the table with no more to be added. The first table currently has 417 rows, with many more to be added, and so the "References" section would become huge. So the question remains: "how many is too many?"

2: I agree that it's best not to bother with the referees in the maximum breaks list. There's probably too much data in that table as it is.  Alan  (talk) 12:03, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@AlH42: 1. My own view is that WP:TOOMANYREFS really only relates to using multiple references for one piece of information, generally to try convince others of the correctness of the information. I don't see that one reference per one piece of information is any problem. 2. I'm thinking the same. A complete list looks like WP:TRIVIA. Nigej (talk) 13:26, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

OK - I'll work on that in my sandbox and let you know when I'm done.  Alan  (talk) 13:46, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nigej: Please have a look in my sandbox and let me know what you think. Will anybody object to the removal of the "age" columns? I don't think they are particularly relevant in this list. I've still got 138 references to find (indicated by "<R>") out of a total of 417. I've got all the easy ones, so the rest might take some time.  Alan  (talk) 10:24, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

@AlH42: Personally I find the "age" columns pretty much the most useful thing in the table, so I wouldn't be at all keen on removing them. And I suspect the editor who reverted your original table thought so too. As I say I'd be much more keen on getting rid of the flags. Nigej (talk) 10:35, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nigej: Have a look in my sandbox now. I've removed all of the flags (easy to put them back in should we so decide) but it made very little difference to the overall width of the table. I would suspect that the IP-user who reverted my edit did so because of the abbreviations I (misguidedly) used in the "Tournament" column. The "age" columns are much too wide, but would be considerably narrower if we changed (e.g.):

{{ayd|1932|10|08|1974|04|25}} (which displays 41 years, 199 days) to

{{age nts|1932|10|08|1974|04|25}} (which just displays 41)

but still sorts correctly. I've still got 130 references to dig out, but there's no rush. What do you think?  Alan  (talk) 09:09, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nigej: Have a look in my sandbox now. I've dug out references for all 417 entries (will be 418 tomorrow). So we just need to decide two things:

1. Whether to keep the flags or not. My preference is to take them out but I suspect there will be objections to that from some quarters.
2. Whether to use years and days or just years in the "age" columns. Both types sort correctly (I've tested this), and using years and days makes these columns much too wide. My preference is to use years only.

Once we have agreed on these two issues, I will format the table to suit, and then run the archive BOT before migrating the table to the main article. Please let me know what you think.  Alan  (talk) 12:25, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

@Nigej: I see you've added entry 418 into the list. I've also added it to the version in my sandbox. I also have all 418 references. I need to get your decision on flags or no flags, and on ages in years only or years+days before I can proceed further. Please respond.  Alan  (talk) 15:23, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm still very keen on the full ages (both years and days) - to me they're the "value added" part of the table. I'd also be happy to remove the flags to save space - like at Maximum break. Nigej (talk) 15:32, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Done.  Alan  (talk) 15:53, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

1963/64 Natal Open

On the original winners list for the Natal Open it stated that Cedric Amm won the 1964 tournament. I recently created a Winners table for the tournament and maintained the 1964 date however it should probably change. According to this primary source, his playoff with Bobby Verwey was scheduled for December 31, 1963. However, I could not find a primary source for the actual win confirming the date. (I do have this secondary source confirming Amm's win overall.) Not sure if you could find a primary source for the playoff.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 08:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

I've had a look at this and can't find anything more than you. Nigej (talk) 20:45, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Ok thanks for the attempt.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:26, 19 January 2024 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

sporting nationalities issues

I recently created a comprehensive page for the Natal Open. A couple of champions have ambiguous status for their sporting nationality though. All over Wikipedia, we have Sid Brews representing South Africa. However, according to his page as late as 1934 he was still representing England at the England–Scotland Professional Match. Perhaps his flag should change.

In addition, I have noticed that Stewart Davies, winner of the 1962 event, usually has the SA flag next to his name. (For example, see Engadine Open.) However, according to this link he "emigrated to South Africa" in 1958 from Scotland. I think the flag of the mother country should be next to his name as this is what we normally do even after the golfer moves to a different country. Any advice would be helpful.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:23, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Jack Burke Jr.

On 24 January 2024, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Jack Burke Jr., which you updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Stephen 00:00, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

ITN recognition for Malcolm Gregson

On 28 January 2024, In the news was updated with an item that involved the article Malcolm Gregson, which you nominated and updated. If you know of another recently created or updated article suitable for inclusion in ITN, please suggest it on the candidates page. Stephen 22:54, 28 January 2024 (UTC)

Snooker tournaments template

@Nigej: I edited the Snooker tournaments template because it was showing the "ranking points" Wikilink as redlined at the bottom of the List of snooker ranking tournaments page. I know that I did it correctly but it is still showing the old, redlined, version at the bottom of the list page. What's going on here?  Alan  (talk) 13:49, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

@AlH42: Looks OK to me. Perhaps a "purge" issue, which sometimes happens with templates. Top right under "tools". Nigej (talk) 14:01, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Thank you - that was it. Learning something new every day.  Alan  (talk) 14:37, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Three years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:28, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Championship League (invitational)

@Nigej: Could you please keep an eye on the Championship League. DooksFoley147 is back, and I don't want to risk reverting more than three times. Just one so far.  Alan  (talk) 14:49, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, clearly him. Nigej (talk) 15:04, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Geoffrey Sisk's amateur wins

I recently published a page for Geoffrey Sisk. I found almost everything I needed but some of his college wins are missing; I am missing four. (You can see them under the Amateur wins section.) If you can find anything please let me know.

In addition, one little messed up thing is background for the Major championships tables. I think I need to use source editing to correct that and am not too good with that. If you could correct that it would be great.

Also, I intend to do formatting tomorrow or the next day.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 05:54, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I'd have thought that https://owlsports.com/documents/2022/1/25/Official_2021_22_Golf_Media_Guide_rev.pdf (page 5) was sufficient for referencing the amateur wins. Nigej (talk) 09:23, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I found this earler but was looking for third-party. However, this is probably our only option for the remaining four events. Thank you for your help.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:46, 9 March 2024 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

1950 World Snooker Championship

Hi, I'll look into this more, but there seems to have been some fun and games in the run up to the 1950 Championship, and I was wondering if you knew any more about the dispute over the entry fee, and what happened with Jim Lees.

• The closing date for entries was set as 1 August. In the Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer for Tuesday 30 August 1949 it's reported that Donaldson and Holt withdrew from the tournament in line with the PBPA's protest about the entry fee, leaving only Fred Davis, Sydney Lee and Jim Lees in the draw.
• The draw published in The Billiard Player in October 1949 matches our current article, except it says that the winner of Kennerley v Barrie would play Jim Lees. Their December issue report about the qualifying doesn't mention Lees.
• According to Kobylecky's book, Lees withdrew.
• Sidney Smith claimed that he had been forgotten from the draw (Bradford Observer - Thursday 15 September 1949)

Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 00:09, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

No, I don't know anything else. Some of this seems to be related to the dispute between the BACC and the PBPA which eventually let to the split of the WC. Very interesting aspect of snooker history so well worth covering. Nigej (talk) 08:10, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

I added what I could find to 1950 World Snooker Championship. Seems odd that Sidney Smith was not allowed to compete. Maybe he had a falling out with Joe Davis or the BACC? Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Reminder to vote now to select members of the first U4C

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ITN recognition for Peter Oosterhuis

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Category:Career achievements of snooker players has been nominated for merging

Category:Career achievements of snooker players has been nominated for merging. A discussion is taking place to decide whether it complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. Let'srun (talk) 03:11, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

1928 U.S. Amateur

I am in the middle of creating a comprehensive page for Brae Burn Country Club. The club hosted the 1919 U.S. Open and 1928 U.S. Amateur. I have done a lot of research for the 1928 tournament and it seems clear to me that it deserves a page in its own right. It received a ton of media coverage, was won by Bobby Jones, and was considered a major championship back in the day. However, I noticed we haven't created year-by-year pages for the amateur majors yet. What are your thoughts?

Oogglywoogly (talk) 02:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

In some ways it would seem like a good idea. I'm sure it satisfies the notability requirement of WP:N and WP:GNG. I suppose the issue is whether a single article for a particular year is worth the bother. Some editors might think that an article about the history of the event, perhaps over 10 year periods, might be a better approach. I'm not sure what sources there are about which events are/were regarded as majors. Nigej (talk) 14:01, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

I am almost done and will publish it soon. Perhaps in the future we can create pages with a decade-by-decade focus but right now I'm just going to publish an independent 1928 page.

Re: the "major championship" issue: I don't believe the phrase existed back then. In hours and hours of research for the 1919 and 1928 events I did not come across the terms "major" or "major championship." I don't think the phrase existed until the 1960s. Nonetheless, it seems clear to me that the early 20th century British Amateur and U.S. Amateur events have been retroactively classified as majors. Even our own pages refer to these events as majors. (See, for example, the page of Chick Evans.)

Oogglywoogly (talk) 04:37, 19 June 2024 (UTC)Ooggywoogly

Nationwide Tour blue link

This is a little thing but it's annoying. When you create a blue link for the "Nationwide tour" it automatically comes up like that with the "t" in lowercase. It obviously should be uppercase. I would try to "move" the page and change the title but, unfortunately, no page exists for this now defunct tour. (Or defunct sponsorship label, more precisely.) All I get is a redirect page or the Korn Ferry Tour page. Do you know how to change it?

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 05:46, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're expecting. We don't keep articles for defunct sponsorship names, they redirect to the current name. In this case we have both Nationwide Tour and Nationwide tour which both redirect to Korn Ferry Tour. Presumably Nationwide tour was created as a plausible name that someone might type in. Nigej (talk) 05:58, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

The fact that we don't have an independent page for the Nationwide Tour is not a big deal.

The fact that one of the options for the blue link is "Nationwide tour" with the lowercase "t" is something that needs to change. When I was creating the page of Geoffrey Sisk the default was always the lowercase option. This is not a plausible option and violates the basic rules of spelling proper nouns.

Regards,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:37, 2 July 2024 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

Not quite sure why you're going on about "blue links". These are simply redirects. The Nationwide tour redirect is currently marked as being {{R from other capitalisation}} Maybe {{R from miscapitalisation}} would be better. Nigej (talk) 20:05, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't quite understand the links you just sent. In general, I just don't think we understand each other. It's a little thing and I think we should give up trying to resolve it.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 22:19, 2 July 2024 (UTC)Oogglywoogly

adding Finalist parameter to 1928 U.S. Amateur page

I am looking to add a "finalist" parameter to the 1928 U.S. Amateur infobox. I know we don't normally list runner-ups but for a match play event I think it is valid. (Fwiw, we do this in tennis.)

However, Wikipedia would not let me do it because it has never been done before. The automatic response I got was this: "Preview warning: Page using Template:Infobox individual golf tournament with unknown parameter 'finalist.'" However, I think this parameter is clearly valid and, in addition, this idea could be important in the long-term as I intend to create more year-by-year pages for the U.S. Amateur. I would like to know your thoughts.

Thanks,

Oogglywoogly (talk) 22:10, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Can't we do it like the PGA Championship? See 1928 PGA Championship where the losing finalist is added to the "score" parameter: "def. Al Espinosa, 6 and 5". Nigej (talk) 05:58, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Great idea! Just used it.

Oogglywoogly (talk) 07:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC)Ooggylwoogly

Centuries template

@Nigej: The template documentation says "The order of the names is unimportant" so why does |Noppon Saengkham=157 have to be above |Andrew Higginson=157 ?  Alan  (talk) 08:52, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Doesn't have to be. It's just that I did a cut and paste (together with a vim macro I've got) directly from snookerinfo.co.uk to check out the totals. So happens that snookerinfo has it the other way round. If my edit had been identical to yours the Wikipedia system would have ignored my edit. I'm impressed that you get it so accurate doing it manually! Usually I only do it manually for the last day or two when there are so few players to update. Of course doing it both ways is also a check that we're consistent with snookerinfo, although I suspect you do that anyway. Nigej (talk) 09:08, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I only check it manually, which is why I swapped these two to put them in alpha order (pedantic). The update is from an Excel workbook that I maintain, the same one that I use to update the tournament list every time a century is scored.  Alan  (talk) 09:22, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Might be an idea to change the template documentation to say that "The order of the names is unimportant, but is usually the same order as the list maintained by snookerinfo.co.uk." or something like that.  Alan  (talk) 09:40, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes. Now that the new snookerinfo site has been going for some time (over a year) and has not been blacklisted (unlike the old site, see MediaWiki:Spam-blacklist), we can hopefully start to treat the new site as a reliable source. The documentation can be changed to reflect that, Currently it doesn't even mention snookerinfo..Nigej (talk) 10:08, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

OK - done that.  Alan  (talk) 10:31, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I see that you had to do the centuries manually this morning. Needed to get Higgins 1000 I guess. SnookerInfo still seems to be "asleep" though. Hope it's only temporary.  Alan  (talk) 18:47, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Just at the time everyone's interested, it's not updated. Doesn't look good for us if Higgings stays on 998. Perhaps he's on holiday or ill? Nigej (talk) 18:51, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Bit of a pain having to do it manually though.  Alan  (talk) 19:01, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

All back to normal now.  Alan  (talk) 14:12, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, a relief. Not sure what we'd do without snookerinfo. Wouldn't have a decent source. Nigej (talk) 14:22, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

@Nigej: Do you have any contact information for Adam Clark at snookerinfo.co.uk? There are, unusually, a couple of errors in the International Championship qualifiers list, although the total (42) is correct, he's got Jiang Jun (113, 104) and Zhou Yuelong (103, 101) wrong.  Alan  (talk) 07:33, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

No. I don't have any contact details for him. Maybe he's contactable through social media, not sure. Nigej (talk) 08:01, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't do "social media". Never been on facebook or twitter.  Alan  (talk) 08:10, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Me neither I'm afraid. Be nice to have an email address for him. Nigej (talk) 08:14, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

...and so Zhou is now out by two in the template.  Alan  (talk) 07:44, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

He does occasionally makes mistakes, but normally sorts them out quite quickly. Nigej (talk) 08:05, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

@AlH42: I'm confused. Isn't Zhou's 214 correct? Nigej (talk) 09:18, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I am also confused, but it looks like it probably is OK. We need that email address.  Alan  (talk) 09:48, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I found an address for Adam Clark. It turns out that I had some correspondence with him a couple of years ago, which I had forgotten about (getting old). So I've sent him a message about the errors and we'll see if he responds.  Alan  (talk) 13:08, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I got a response from Adam, and he's fixed it. Although there's still one minor error which I've now told him about. His address is snookerinfo147@gmail.com by the way. 06:33, 6 October 2024 (UTC)  Alan  (talk) 06:33, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I heard back from him again and it's all sorted. So I've updated the archive for the International Championship qualifiers centuries to suit. On a different subject, should the 147 made by Zhao Xintong at the Q Tour be added to the list of 147s[15]?  Alan  (talk) 14:31, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

...oops - silly me. Of course he's not currently a professional so it doesn't count.  Alan  (talk) 14:59, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

As you've realised the answer is no, since it's not a "professional" event in snooker terms. Snooker uses a rather bizarre meaning of a professional, to mean players currently on the main tour. Nigej (talk) 15:06, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

It might be worth mentioning it in the prose though, since it's the only 147 ever on the Q Tour.  Alan  (talk) 15:10, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Already in. Nigej (talk) 15:15, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I see that it's in the Q Tour article, but what about the maximum break article?  Alan  (talk) 15:33, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

I suppose the issue then is why would we mention this one and not lots of others in non-pro events. eg Ashley Hugill in event 3 of the 2019–20 Challenge Tour (according to cuetracker). Nigej (talk) 15:44, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Good point well made.  Alan  (talk) 16:00, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Looks like somebody's put it in anyway!  Alan  (talk) 09:37, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Are you happy to leave that in?  Alan  (talk) 10:33, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

No strong views either way. I suppose that we could have a short section on maximums in minor events. Perhaps there could be a discussion on the article talk page. Nigej (talk) 11:09, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm happy to leave it in as it is.  Alan  (talk) 12:00, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Should Daniel Wells be added to the template?  Alan  (talk) 07:46, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

Oops - I see you already have.  Alan  (talk) 07:51, 31 October 2024 (UTC)

A question: Since Zhao Xintong is not currently a "professional", how come his 146 in the UK qualis gets added to the list?  Alan  (talk) 11:12, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

All centuries in professional competition count, even if the player is not currently a professional. So UK qualifying counts but not Q Tour. Nigej (talk) 12:48, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Got it - thanks.  Alan  (talk) 12:56, 17 November 2024 (UTC)